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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Glamorganshire => Wales => Glamorganshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Phil Goater on Saturday 25 August 07 22:26 BST (UK)
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Louisa Kirchner married Samuel Parker in Swansea in 1848. The question is - was she in Swansea in 1841 and, if so, with whom?
She was born in Limerick in Ireland about 1829.
Phil
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Hi Phil,
The nearest I can find is a Louisa Kirknon? See what you think anyway!
1841 census
HO107/1426/8, folio 14, page 19
Glamorgan, Swansea
Strand
Paterick Gahagan, 30, Tailor
Margt, 35
Louisa Kirknon, 16
None of whom were born in county.
Kind regards,
Pels
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Thanks Pels, that certainly looks interesting.
In 1848 Louisa was 'of full age' per her wedding certificate which suggests she was born earlier than 1829! I note that nobody else appears to go by the name Kirknon anywhere and that there was a Gahagan born in Limerick in 1833. It could be her.
Cheers,
Phil
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New information hot off the press!
Patrick Gahagan is reported to have married the widow Margaret Kirchener in St.Michaels, Limerick.
In the light of that I would appreciate it if you could find Patrick and Margaret for me in the 1851 and 1861 census returns.
Regards,
Phil
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Do you know if your Louisa Kirchner was an Irish Palatine? My 4 x G. Grandfather Henry Albright (aka Heinrich Albrecht) m. a Mary Carkner (aka Maritje Kirchner) in Albany, NY abt 1782 in Albany Lutheran Church, Albany, NY Colony. Both ended up in Canada after the Revolution and Marys parents were Wilhelm Kirchner and Christina "Justina" Harmsen. She was born 1765 in Albany, NY Colony.
Longshot, but saw the name and it is not common. Know this off topic of Wales, but had to ask.
Lauraine (Canada)
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possible death registrations
Margaret Gahagan sept qtr 1847 Swansea vol 26 pg 363
" " june qtr 1851 Swansea vol 26 pg 416
" " dec qtr 1851 Swansea vol 36 pg 387
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Thank you for the renewed interest!
The idea that Louisa may be of Irish Palatine stock has been mooted elsewhere on Rootschat (see Kirchner in Limerick). I haven't been able to prove that one way or the other but although the Irish Palatine Association can't substantiate it, it must be a possibility.
According to the wedding certificate Louisa's father was Benjamin Kirchner, cabinet maker. I have a theory that that was in fact her brother standing in, in the absence of her father who had died by then. There was a Benjamin Kirchner, cabinet maker b.Limerick 1818 who settled in the Midlands. He was the son of Simon and Mary. They had 3 sons christened at Limerick Cathedral and then two girls followed with parents Simon and Margaret. It was the widow Margaret Kirchner who married Patrick Gahagan in Limerick with whom Louisa was residing in 1841 in Swansea. I rest my case!
One of Benjamin's brothers was called Gottlieb which suggests a strong Germanic connection (and perchance a religious bent) - perhaps the grandparents were there (but where???!).
I'd be interested to know if any of Lauraine's migrant Kirchner ancestors were cabinet makers!
Thanks to Osprey for the information concerning Margaret. The absence of Patrick and Margaret from subsequent census returns suggests an early demise.
Regards,
Phil
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My 4x G. Grandmother was b . 1765 in Albany, NY Colony to Wilhelm Kirchner (b. abt 1732) and Christina "Justina" Harmsen b. 1734. Both her parents were said to be born in Albany, NY Colony which suggests they were Palatines. There were ship's manifests for some of the Palatines and did find my May (Mey) family in one group arriving in NY 1709.
Are there no ships records for the Irish Palatines that were sent to Ireland? Keep thinking there was something on them. No idea what profession Wilhelm Kirchner had in NY. His family anglocized the name Kirchner to Carkner. Conrad Carkner was a proven Loyalist. Have found the odd Kirchner in some Albany Parish records, but to date have not found info on Wilhelm or his wife Justina.
Lauraine
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Hi Lauraine,
I was very interested to see your surmise that your Louisa Kirchner came from Palatine stock. I'm also investigating the background of a Louisa Kirchner who was born in Limerick in Ireland c.1829. Her wedding certificate gives her father as Benjamin, a cabinet maker but I strongly suspect that this was her elder brother standing in for her father since her mother had remarried. It would appear that her father was Simon Kirchner (whose surname was also spelt Kirchener). He appears to have had an earlier child christened at Limerick Cathedral as Gottlieb Simon Kirchner which I think confirms his German credentials!
Somewhere (!) I have a record of a contact with someone else who investigated an American Kirchner family and who reported that they were also in some form of woodworking.
I take it that Palatines settled in Albany - they also settled in Limerick and I strongly suspect a Palatine heritage but have yet to find any conclusive proof.
Regards,
Phil
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Hi Phil:
If you had KIRCHNER's in your line, perhaps they were some of the Palatines who were resettled into Ireland?? Might be the same family or at least relatives of the same group? Am not sure what records exist for the Palatines who were settled in Ireland, but there must be some?
My ancestors were Wilhelm KIRCHNER (changed to Carkner) and Christina "Justine" Harmsen who were either born or moved to the Colony (NY) in or prior to 1734 or thereabouts. It is funny how the name was changed when they moved into Canada. Not sure of the whys.
Please keep in touch.
Lauraine (Smith) Syrnick
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Hi Lauraine,
This is my wife's ancestor. The family had one of those wonderful family legends that they were related to Lord Kitchener who was also born in Limerick. This was clearly a legend of convenience/ political correctness since there was a lot of anti-German feeling during the First World War - there is no truth in the fiction!
Phil
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Hi Phil:
My relatives lived long before the lst World War. Both born in the 1700's so born before the American Revolution started. Germany was not a country back then so most of the Palatines were in Dutchies. Do not know a lot about the Palatines other than they were chased out of the Dutchies during the Repeal of ?? Darn can't recall the name now. Anyway it was a law that allowed peoples of other faiths than Catholic to exist and it was repealed whereby the families were either burned off their property or they fled to escape religious persecution. My relatives fled to New York which at the time was under British Rule.
Lauraine
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Hi I am trying to find information on Simon Kirchner, Cabinet Maker working in Limerick 1815-ca1830.
I known the man hand two wives a Mary and Margaret and at least 4 children out of the unions. Two of the sons appear in the UK Census 1861 and are living in Birmingham (Benjamin and Simon), was wondering went the family left Ireland was it before or after the famine???
John Rogers
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Hi I am trying to find information on Simon Kirchner, Cabinet Maker working in Limerick 1815-ca1830.
I known the man hand two wives a Mary and Margaret and at least 4 children out of the unions. Two of the sons appear in the UK Census 1861 and are living in Birmingham (Benjamin and Simon), was wondering went the family left Ireland was it before or after the famine???
John Rogers
Sorry cannot help you out here. If you find out anything more about these Kirchner's, perhaps you can let me know. My 4x great grandmother was a Kirchner but her name was changed to Carkner in Canada but then she married an Albright (Albrecht). One of her brothers was definitely an UEL & believe that family did a fairly extensive report on them. Have not really researched this woman other than knowing she married my 4X great grandfather. If you want to search for the Carkner family in Canada know they were formerly Kirchner.
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It would appear that Benjamin was in the Birmingham area in 1851 with his wife so he might have come over due to the famine which lasted from 1845 to 1852. He wasn't in Swansea in 1841 with his step mother Margaret who had remarried Patrick Gahagan in Limerick.
With regard to the Palatine heritage I have found a couple of records which suggests a different background for these Kirchners in Ireland. There is an advert in a Dublin newspaper of 12 January 1790 which advertises the "superior" display of the furrier Gottlieb Simon Kirchner from Prussia. Gottlieb and Johann Simon Kirchner feature on a small list of furriers in Dublin in 1783 in the Merchants and Traders section of Watson's Almanac of 1783 (at different addresses in Dublin).
Phil
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hi
im new to this site but want to post here as i too am researching Louisa as she is my great great grandmother
she married Samuel Parker in 1848 in Swansea - her father is shown as Benjamin Kirchner
in 1881 she married Thomas hill - this record shows her as being born in Ireland in 1833 and her fathers name as Benjamin Kischener
this convinces me that it is her fathers name and not her brother
there is a story in the family told to me by both my mother , aunt and grandfather that there is a family link to lord Kitchener......my great aunt had in her possession letters written by Kitchener to her mother (Louisas daughter)
these were destroyed unfortunately
the story is that a Kitchener ran off with a gardener and was therefore disowned by the family
Louisa was just 16 when she married Samuel Parker - a head gardener.
also my great grandmother told all her children not to waste time trying to get an inheritance when Kitchener died but a few years later my great uncle came into money from somewhere and built a house and opened a shop in the village
so lots of coincidences and mysteries there.
i dont know where Louisa was in 1841 but she was just 7 at the time
ive got a lovely photograph of Louisa (known by the family as granny Hill)if anyone wants a copy of it or wants me to post it on here let me know
kath
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It would appear that Benjamin was in the Birmingham area in 1851 with his wife so he might have come over due to the famine which lasted from 1845 to 1852. He wasn't in Swansea in 1841 with his step mother Margaret who had remarried Patrick Gahagan in Limerick.
With regard to the Palatine heritage I have found a couple of records which suggests a different background for these Kirchners in Ireland. There is an advert in a Dublin newspaper of 12 January 1790 which advertises the "superior" display of the furrier Gottlieb Simon Kirchner from Prussia. Gottlieb and Johann Simon Kirchner feature on a small list of furriers in Dublin in 1783 in the Merchants and Traders section of Watson's Almanac of 1783 (at different addresses in Dublin).
Phil
Hi Phil = they may have put they were from Prussia as my husband's ancestors came from Prussia but were actually Ukrainians from the Ukraine. You would need to provide more information on where they came from. Prussia was a huge area & covered Germany, Ukraine, etc. If you find out anymore on the Kirchener's please advise me. Thanks
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hi
im new to this site but want to post here as i too am researching Louisa as she is my great great grandmother
she married Samuel Parker in 1848 in Swansea - her father is shown as Benjamin Kirchner
in 1881 she married Thomas hill - this record shows her as being born in Ireland in 1833 and her fathers name as Benjamin Kischener
this convinces me that it is her fathers name and not her brother
there is a story in the family told to me by both my mother , aunt and grandfather that there is a family link to lord Kitchener......my great aunt had in her possession letters written by Kitchener to her mother (Louisas daughter)
these were destroyed unfortunately
the story is that a Kitchener ran off with a gardener and was therefore disowned by the family
Louisa was just 16 when she married Samuel Parker - a head gardener.
also my great grandmother told all her children not to waste time trying to get an inheritance when Kitchener died but a few years later my great uncle came into money from somewhere and built a house and opened a shop in the village
so lots of coincidences and mysteries there.
i dont know where Louisa was in 1841 but she was just 7 at the time
ive got a lovely photograph of Louisa (known by the family as granny Hill)if anyone wants a copy of it or wants me to post it on here let me know
kath
Hi Kath
No idea where this group of Kirchener originated. Could be Prussia or one of the countries under their rule. Would be interesting to know. No idea where the ones in the US came from but believe they were on the 3rd ship out of Amsterdam (supposedly came from one of the Dutchies which later became Germany. They arrived in the US between 1709 - 1765. My own family the "Albright" (Albrecht) arrived in 1709/10. Made a stab at finding them in Europe but so far no luck. Good luck finding more about your relatives.
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hi
im new to this site but want to post here as i too am researching Louisa as she is my great great grandmother
she married Samuel Parker in 1848 in Swansea - her father is shown as Benjamin Kirchner
in 1881 she married Thomas hill - this record shows her as being born in Ireland in 1833 and her fathers name as Benjamin Kischener
this convinces me that it is her fathers name and not her brother
there is a story in the family told to me by both my mother , aunt and grandfather that there is a family link to lord Kitchener......my great aunt had in her possession letters written by Kitchener to her mother (Louisas daughter)
these were destroyed unfortunately
the story is that a Kitchener ran off with a gardener and was therefore disowned by the family
Louisa was just 16 when she married Samuel Parker - a head gardener.
also my great grandmother told all her children not to waste time trying to get an inheritance when Kitchener died but a few years later my great uncle came into money from somewhere and built a house and opened a shop in the village
so lots of coincidences and mysteries there.
i dont know where Louisa was in 1841 but she was just 7 at the time
ive got a lovely photograph of Louisa (known by the family as granny Hill)if anyone wants a copy of it or wants me to post it on here let me know
kath
Hi Kath
No idea where this group of Kirchener originated. Could be Prussia or one of the countries under their rule. Would be interesting to know. No idea where the ones in the US came from but believe they were on the 3rd ship out of Amsterdam (supposedly came from one of the Dutchies which later became Germany. They arrived in the US between 1709 - 1765. My own family the "Albright" (Albrecht) arrived in 1709/10. Made a stab at finding them in Europe but so far no luck. Good luck finding more about your relatives.
thank you very much for responding so quickly
im still stuck researching wales and england and ireland ....looks like prussia will be my next search area then
x kath
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Unless I am getting confused, Kirchner sounds to me like a common German second name?
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Am sure it is a common Germanic name. If you want to look it up go to the following:
https://www.houseofnames.com/kirchner-family-crest
It is an old name & at one time long before I became interested in Genealogy, there was a family in my home town called "Kirchner" who were Jewish. There are no Jews in my family so when I came across the name was surprised. Apparently people years ago adopted names from the places they stayed & this name came from the "cherry" or Kirche.
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fascinating - thank you for your in put x kath