RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: Koromo on Thursday 23 August 07 12:24 BST (UK)
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Greetings
I'm in search of info about two families in Waimate:
Backgound:
On the 1841 census from Deal, Kent, there is a family including two daughters:
Ann Eliza Day, b. 1826
Elizabeth Day, b. 1828
Ann Eliza Day married Samuel William Goldsmith in Lambeth Surrey 1852, and emigrated to NZ on the Strathallan in 1858/9, arriving Timaru.
Elizabeth Day married John Jones Bowles in Deal [Eastry] Kent 1850, and emigrated to NZ on the Mystery in 1858/9, arriving Lyttelton and then moving down to Timaru.
Both families finally ended up in Waimate.
Elizabeth (Day) and John J Bowles had 5 children, one of them called Minnie Ellen (my g-grandmother) b. 1859, Lyttelton.
John J Bowles died 1867. His widow Elizabeth married again in 1869. Some notes left by my mother state that Minnie was adopted "in her late teens" by Mr and Mrs Goldsmith, but clearly did not know that Elizabeth Bowles and Ann Goldsmith were/might have been sisters. Minnie became Minnie Ellen Goldsmith Bowles - I believe a younger brother Willie [Goldsmith] Bowles was similarly adopted, all this before legal adoption procedures were in place in NZ. [/list]
Before I start splashing out on certificates/probates to help verfiy that Elizabeth and Ann Eliza really were sisters, may I ask for some BMD look-ups, please. Their UK marriage certs will only give their fathers' names, but I'm after their mothers' names too.
1910 death for Elizabeth Manchester (formerly Bowles, née Day)
1913 death for Ann Eliza Goldsmith (née Day)
1869 marriage for Elizabeth Bowles (née Day) to William Manchester (probably no parents' names!)
1859 birth for Minnie (Ellen) Bowles, Lyttelton (I think)
c1867 birth for Willie/William Bowles, somewhere in Canterbury :-\
c1860s birth for Samuel William Goldsmith (possible son of Ann) and/or c1880s marriage
any electoral roll info for the above names in Waimate
I already have Minnie's 1880 marriage cert, but there are no parents' names for either bride or groom — grrrrrr!
All the evidence I've found so far feels right, but I'm at the stage where I need more definitive proof.
Some refs:
1841 HO107/466/2/36/17 (Day)
1851 HO107/1631/781/20 (Day), HO107/1631/832/25 (Bowler/Bowles)
1903 NZ Cyclopedia entry for Samuel William Goldsmith (http://www.rootsweb.com/~nzlscant/waimate1078.htm)
I can see there are probates of some of my Goldsmiths/Bowles on the Archway Archives.
Cheers
Koromo
:)
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Hi Koromo
Before I start splashing out on certificates/probates to help verfiy that Elizabeth and Ann Eliza really were sisters, may I ask for some BMD look-ups, please. Their UK marriage certs will only give their fathers' names, but I'm after their mothers' names too.
You do realise that the BMD indexes will only confirm (or not) that the event took place in a certain year and the registration district, ie no parents names??
Bren.
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Hi Koromo,
I was in at the ChCh Library this morning and found this on the card index:
BOWLES Minnie Ellen Goldsmith, born 26 April 1859, babtised 19 May 1859, Holy Trinity Church, Lyttelton
Parents: John Jones Bowles and Elizabeth Bowles.
Occupation: Mariner
Residence: Timaru
Also found a marriage:
Rangiora, 14 Nov 1892
BOWLES Willie Goldsmith, 26 yrs, born Timaru, farmer, and WYCHERLEY Mary Jane Paget, 35 years, born West Indies
Parents: John Jones Bowles and Elizabeth Manchester Bowles nee Day
Captain Thomas Bernard Wycherley and Harriet Ann nee Card
Marriage took place at Wycherley residence, Rangiora.
Quite a few other Goldsmiths but ran out of time!
Stephanie
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Sorry, Bren. I've sort of put up my working list of certs which might have useful info on them, ie parents' names etc, and I kept on adding notes to myself! :-[ I have seen a Bowles tree, but I've found errors and omissions on it and I hoped to check a date or two (and clarify my thinking) before ordering any certs.
Stephanie, thank you very much for looking up the card index. I'm a bit troubled now as it seems Minnie was given her Goldsmith name at birth, whereas I'd expected that she took on the name after being adopted by the Goldsmiths.
A Google on Wycherley in Rangiora brought up May Jane Paget Bowle's death in 1899, and her father had been captain of a ship named the Sir Edward Paget which made one passage to Canterbury - so that's all interesting!
Regards
Koromo
:)
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Hi Koromo
don't know if this is going to help or hinder, but here goes....:
1910 death for Elizabeth Manchester (formerly Bowles, née Day)
2201, Sep qtr, Waimate
1913 death for Ann Eliza Goldsmith (née Day)
2339, Sep qtr, Waimate
No BOWLES births 1840 – 1855, 1857, 1859, 1862, 1864, 1867
1856
BOWLES, Unnamed female, 51, Wellington
1858
BOWLES, Unnamed female, 97, Wellington
1859
GOLDSMITH, Frederick William, 55, Turanga
1859 birth for Minnie (Ellen) Bowles, Lyttelton (I think) - can't find!
(Is it possible she was born in the UK?)
1860
BOWLES, Caroline Rachel, 132, Wellington
BOWLES, Winifred Reid, 5014, Auckland
c1860s birth for Samuel William Goldsmith (possible son of Ann) – can't find!
(see 1866 BOWLES birth, could this be one and the same person….??)
1861
BOWLES, John William, 353, Timaru
1862
GOLDSMITH, Alfred George, 95, Turanga
1863
BOWLES, Mary Redman, 433, Timaru
GOLDSMITH, Albert Edward, 6842, Auckland
1865
BOWLES, Catherine, 570, Dunedin
GOLDSMITH, Female (unnamed), 9542, Auckland
1866
BOWLES, John Patrick, 870, Dunedin
BOWLES, Willie Goldsmith, 679, Timaru
c1867 birth for Willie/William Bowles, somewhere in Canterbury
1867
GOLDSMITH, Mary Ann, 55, Auckland
GOLDSMITH, Oliver George, 319, Turanga
Bren.
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Hi Bren
It does help, really!
How strange that Minnie Ellen G Bowles' birth isn't there, when she appears on the card index that Stephanie found. The ship on which her family came to NZ arrived in Lyttelton on 29-30 March 1859, so she was born 27 days later - perhaps they didn't know where the registry office was, or she is registered under an entirely different name!
Mary Redman Bowles might be mine too - there was another daughter known as Polly ...
Samuel William Goldsmith may have been born in the UK. His parents married (he of Lambeth, she of Deal, Kent) in 1852, and there are two possibles on FreeBMD born in 1857 but in Loddon, Norfolk which is confusing.
Thank you very much for checking through all those years.
Regards
Koromo
:)
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Hi Koromo
I didn't read Stephanies reply until now as I took a note of what you wanted on Friday then had a quick look on Saturday morning before I went out and only read the first sentence to confirm that you did want the indexes checked.
I guess there are several options:
1. I missed the entry
(prior to 1862 the records are in several formats, which if you get distracted, it would be possible to miss an entry, eg. 1840-58 the years are grouped together with all "As" combined, then from 1859-61 they are on the one fiche BUT you will have a separate page of As for 1859, 60, & 61 on the one fiche....
The old brain is not as agile as it used to be...
2. She wasn't registered
3. As you say, she was registered under another surname.
Mary Redman BOWLES married in 1889 - Henry Giles BERRYMAN
(incase that name rings any bells...)
No marriages for a "Polly"
Doing a search for Goldsmith BOWLES marriages it gives the following:
1943 Irene Goldsmith to William DON
1945 Marjorie Goldsmith to John Raymond MOIR
1880 Minnie Ellen Goldsmith - you already know.
1892 Willie Goldsmith - Stephanie has already given you.
If I have time on Wednesday, I will check the ITM for Minnie Ellen & Mary Redman for you.
Bren.
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1945 Marjorie Goldsmith to John Raymond MOIR
What got me looking at the Goldsmith/Bowles families again was receiving a few days ago a photocopy of a photocopy of a page from some booklet(?) about Waimate - the sort of thing that is produced for a town or school centennary. It has an unrecognisable (ie. almost solid black!) photo of Waimate School Staff labelled 1882 which includes Miss P Bowles and Miss M Bowles. In the margin in my uncle's handwriting it says:
"From Marjorie Moir (née Goldsmith) Dunedin. Her grandmother and ours were sisters - Bowles"
I was so pleased to see that my suspicion that Ann Goldsmith and Elizabeth Bowles were sisters was probably correct, but now I can't work out the relationships. If Marjorie Moir was a Goldmsith Bowles (not just a Goldsmith), 'her grandmother and ours' must be the same woman. I must have screwed something up somewhere. I will have to bite the bullet and order their death certs and cross my fingers that the informants were very well-informed.
I am becoming more convinced that Mary Redman is Polly ... I've now found Mary and Henry Berryman's burials in Nelson's online cemetery records, and their son Stanley on the Commonwealth Graves and Auckland Cenotaph sites.
In a couple of weeks I'll be visiting England where I have arranged to view some parish registers at a LDS Family History Centre for the first time ever, so I will have first-hand experience of what it's like searching through film/fiche records - I'm quite nervous! I must find out how long it would take to get NZ film/fiche for a future visit.
Thank you, Bren.
Regards
K.
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Hi Koromo
Good luck with your trip and the research.
If you are going to the Hyde Park LDS FHC in London which is near the British Museum, they have a huge room full of filing cabinets containing films which are permanently on-site.
Bren.
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Hi Koromo,
I will try and get back to the library later this week and will have another look at the cards for Bowles and Goldsmith but I don't think the records extend to churches that far south (Waimate).
Stephanie
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Hi again!
Check out this cemetery database for Waimate. Some of your Bowles are on it.
http://www.waimatedc.govt.nz/Council/community/cemeteries.htm
Stephanie
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Stephanie, I'd looked at the Waimate cemetery records before, but not recently. Thank you for reminding me - I've found more people to do with the new names that you and Bren have discovered. :) It's good of you offer to check the card index again - I'm frantically trying to think of any other family who might be there, but they do all seem to have moved southwards.
Bren, we will be visiting my OH's family in Norfolk, so I arranged for the films to be sent to Kings Lynn. On the rare occasions we do get down to London for a day trip, we tend to be IN a museum or taking a trip on the Thames or something. I don't think I could get away with spending the day there at the LDS!
Many thanks to you both.
K.
:)
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Hi Koromo
2 x ITM
5 November 1889
Henry Giles BERRYMAN, Widower, Draper, 30, Waimate, 6 yrs
Mary Redman BOWLES, Spinster,,26, Waimate, 9 mths,
@ Residence of Saml Wm Goldsmith, Waimate, Wm G. Thomas, Wesleyan
3 August 1880
John James LEWIS, Bachelor, Wesleyan Minister, 35, Waimate, 6mths
Minnie Ellen Goldsmith BOWLES, Spinster, Teacher, 21, Waimate, 18 mths,
@Wesleyan Church, Waimate, xxxxx Reid, Wesleyan Minister
Probate for Henry Giles BERRYMAN, died at Nelson 31 August 1942.
retired Sheep-farmer, born Porthmear, England
son Frederick Roberts BERRYMAN of Motupiko, sheep farmer, trustee
(born at Ashburton)
after paying debts, residue of estate to wife, Mary Redman BERRYMAN – if pre-decease him then to son.
Bren.
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Yes! It's all tying up so nicely! :D
Minnie and her Wesleyan minister husband were posted up to Napier shortly after their marriage and then to Christchurch, so it makes sense that her sister Mary Redman was married at Samuel W Goldmsith's house. And you checked the Berryman probate too! I will have a happy time this morning looking for Henry B on the UK censuses.
Bren, I am so grateful for all the time you've spent chasing my family around. I'm really chuffed!
Regards
Koromo
:)
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Hi Koromo,
I looked up the two probates for you.
John William BOWLES, Labourer, died 15 March 1894
Left everything to his brother Willie Goldsmith BOWLES of Waimate.
(So he is "yours"!)
William MANCHESTER provided an affidavit.
Ann Eliza GOLDSMITH, died 11 July 1913
There is a beautifully handwritten will which you might like to order a copy of but I noted the main points.
Executors and trustees: William MANCHESTER, farmer of Waimate and James NIND, Gardener of Waimate. (Her brother as you will see...)
If James NIND predeceases her, Richard HUTT, Tailor, in his place.
The residue of her estate to be put in trust and from that the trustees are to pay the following:
Methodist Church, Waimate - 10 pounds
Methodist Sunday School, Waimate - 10 pounds
Church choir - 10 pounds
Ladies Benevolent Society - 10 pounds
Minnie Ellen Goldsmith LEWIS, wife of John J LEWIS (Weslyan Minister - 200 pounds
Ellen NIND, wife of James - 30 pounds
Caroline ARCHER, widow of Isaac ARCHER, farmer of Waimate - 100 pounds
Olive KELCHER, wife of Thomas William KELCHER of Hurstlea, 50 pounds
Geoffry GRAY, Harold GRAY and Eileen GRAY, the children of Joseph GRAY, schoolmaster, - each 70 pounds
Elizabeth KING, wife of Walter of Ormondville - 20 pounds
Mary Redman BERRYMAN, wife of Henry Giles BERRYMAN of Mount Noble - 20 pounds
Henry Giles BERRYMAN - 10 pounds
Emily MANCHESTER, wife of Henry MANCHESTER, Gardener, Waimate - 20 pounds
Joy MANCHESTER, his daughter - 5 pounds
Edwin GOLDSMITH, Draper of Hastings - 50 pounds
William, Stella and Alice GOLDSMITH, children of the late William GOLDSMITH - 100 pounds each
Emma OLIVER of Timaru - 10 pounds
The trustees - 5 pounds each
She also made a special note that any money given to females was for her sole and separate use!
In a codicil to the will she also left:
To her sister Caroline ARCHER, her gold watch and chain, brooches and clothes.
To Mrs McElary and her daughter all her books.
To her brother and sister James and Helen NIND all moneys after expenses paid.
The witness to the will was Arthur James MANCHESTER
So .... lots of names to go on! I hope it all fits together for you!
Interesting that Ann's brother is a NIND and you thought her maiden name was DAY!
I also had another look at the cards in the library and found two marriages and a birth for children of William Goldsmith BOWLES and Mary Jane. Do you want those too?
Also some other Goldsmiths in and around Christchurch but Ithink they're from Norfolk.
Cheers,
Stephanie
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Stephanie! I'm stunned! I can't get my head around all this!
The entry for Samuel William Goldsmith in the NZ Cyclopedia of 1903 (linked in my first post) says, "In 1852 he married a daughter of the late Mr William Day, of Deal."
On FreeBMD there is a marriage for Samuel William Goldmsmith to Ann Eliza Day in 1852 in Lambeth (where he was living).
Is Ann Eliza (née Nind) a second wife - if so, why did he have to marry two women with the same christian names, it's too confusing!
It's going to take me a while to work through all this - and it's great that John William Bowles is part of the family too. Yes, I would very be interested in the other cards for William Goldsmith Bowles' children et al. I will take your advice and order that probate, along with more certificates - this could bankrupt me!!
You can't have had time to do anything else today except look up other people's requests.
Thank you so much. You and Bren have been brilliant!
Regards
Koromo
:)
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Hi Koromo,
You're welcome. Seems I've thrown a spanner in the works! Could it be that the Ninds are half brothers and sisters to Ann Eliza and she really was a Day and her mother remarried? What about finding her other sister Caroline Archer's maiden name? Nind is such an unusual name - it can't be too hard to find more info on the family?
From the cards:
Marriage: BOWLES, Clarence, 22 years, farmer of Rangiora, born Waimate and TURNER, Edith Travers, 20 years, domestic duties, born Rangiora.
Married at Parish Church Rangiora 18 June 1919.
Groom's parents: Willam Goldsmith BOWLES and Mary Jane
Bride's: Henry TURNER, printer and Emily Selina nee STEPHENS
Baptism: BOWLES, William Bernard. Born 9 May 1895. Baptised 1 August 1895 in Rangiora.
Parents: Willie Goldsmith BOWLES and Mary Jane
Marriage: BOWLES, Winifred Harriet, 25 yrs, dentist's assistant, born Waimate and WRIGHT, Frank Basil, 26 yrs, farmer born Wainui, Banks Peninsula. Married at Parish Curch Rangiora 10 Sept 1919. Both resident Rangiora.
Bride's parents: William Goldsmith BOWLES and Mary Jane
Groom's: Mark WRIGHT, farmer and Charlotte nee MAHNKE
There was also a burial of a Henry James BOWLES, 23 Jan 1892, resident of Temuka, aged 28 years. Buried at Linwood Cemetery in Christchurch.
Don't know if he's one of yours?
Cheers,
Stephanie
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To her brother and sister James and Helen NIND all moneys after expenses paid.
If it was to her brother-in-law and sister James and Helen Nind, that would work.
So far, have found two lots of Nind arriving in NZ in 1874: James & Emma with son Joseph, and Joseph & Ellen, all from Northampton.
You're right, Caroline's marriage to Isaac Archer should shed some light.
I don't think that the Henry James Bowles you found on the card index is one of mine.
(Still searching all over the place! :D)
K.
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Hi Koromo,
Good thinking! James could well be the brother-in-law.
Good luck with the hunt!
Stephanie
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Hi Koromo
Just checked the marriages for Henry Giles BERRYMAN and there are 2 listed:
The other one is 1884 to Eva STEEL, which would account for him being listed as a widower in 1889.
This would fit in with him saying that he had been in the district for 6 years.
Here's her burial record.
WAIMATE OLD, BERRYMAN EVA, 24/08/1888, 28, METHODIST, 437 G
Bren.
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Ohhh, so many women died early in marriage. I guess childbirth in rural communities with limited medical facilities was a bit of a lottery.
I've found Henry Giles Berryman in 1861 at Porthmear, Zennor, Cornwall, 2 years old, with his Berryman grandparents and mother, listed as an illegitimate child ... and guess what? On the previous page there is a family who have a son called Henry Giles! ;)
Bren, is there a marriage on your index for Isaac Archer with a bride named Caroline? They are mentioned in Ann Eliza Goldsmith's will.
Thank you again. :)
Koromo
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Hi Koromo
1882 Caroline FLANDERS
I don't think Polly and Mary Redman are the same person as you indicated/hoped on 26th.
I have found reference to a Polly BOWLES in a Pedigree chart. I have got the name and address and the person still lives there (according to the White Pages), so will ring them at the weekend rather than in the evening. If they are elderly they are less likely to be defensive.
Bren.
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Flanders?! The plot thickens ???
Stephanie
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Another thought ...
Ellen NIND, wife of James - 30 pounds
To her brother and sister James and Helen NIND all moneys after expenses paid.
Are Ellen and Helen one and the same?
S
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No, no! It's all right! ;D Look what I've just found:
FreeBMD Marriages
Jun qtr 1866, Eastry (Deal is in the Eastry registration district in Kent)
Joseph Flanders
Caroline Day
Yeeeehaaaa! Got there, but you two have done all the work! :-* :-*
Bren, how interesting that you've found that reference. I will be on tenterhooks waiting to hear the result of your phone call. :D
THANK YOU, both.
K.
;D
PS. I'm sure Ellen and Helen are the same person. I wonder if there is a marriage for James Nind and an Ellen/Helen? (Quickly ducks as Bren throws her NZ marriages index away in irritation!)
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James Hind & Ellen Blackmore ..... 1905
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Koromo,
You might already have this but I did a search on the IGI with parents' names William Day and Ann Milgate in Kent and got:
Eliza b. 1825 d. 1913 (Ann Eliza?)
Elizabeth b. 1827 d. 1910
Jane b. 1829 d. 1910
Sarah Ann b. 1830
James b. 1833
William b. 1835
Charles b. 1837
Henry b. 1839 d. 1843
Caroline b. 1841
Helen b. 1843 d. 1856 (?)
John b. 1845 d. 1858
These are submitted entries so need checking but the sisters' names fit.
Stephanie
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Can you do me a BRIEF summary of the BOWLES family with just the year for events so that I can establish whether or not this Polly is connected to your lot.
I’m sure most of it’s on the previous pages, but will save me the hassle!!
Bren.
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Zephyr: Thanks for looking for the marriage. I'm not at all sure about Hind - the strange Nind name does exist even though it looks like a typo! The date feels a bit late, too.
Stephanie: Yes, I have those Day siblings, and I had searched for them quite extensively in the later censuses but most had just disappeared. It never occurred to me that more of them might go out to NZ, and even when you put up the will with Caroline's name, I still dismissed it as coincidence! ::) Ellen/Helen I did find in 1871 under her married name of Ellen Mayfield working as a servant with no husband in sight - her 5 yr old daughter Ellen Mayfield was with her Day grandparents. I've never found them after 1871 which could mean they too emigrated. I need to search the passenger lists more thoroughly.
Bren: this is a summary of all the Bowles:
Parents:
John Jones Bowles
b. 1816, Deal, Kent
d. 1867, Waimate, NZ
m. 1850, Deal, Kent
Elizabeth Day
b. 1828, Canterbury, Kent
d. 1910, Waimate, NZ
[m. 2nd 1869,William Manchester]
Children:
Emily Bowles
b. 1852, Deal, Kent
m. 1869, Henry Manchester, b. 1843 Grantham, Lincolnshire
d. 1930, Christchurch, NZ
Elizabeth Sarah Bowles
b. 1853, Deal, Kent
m. 1870, Walter Junius King, b. 1849 Suffolk
d. 1930, Whetukura, Ormondville
[above parents & daughters on ship Mystery arriving 1859]
Minnie Ellen Goldsmith Bowles
b. 1859, Lyttelton, NZ
m. 1880, John James Lewis, b. 1843 Abergavenny, Wales
d. 1944, Auckland
John William Bowles
b. 1861, Timaru
d. 1894, Waimate
Mary Redman Bowles
b. 1863, Timaru
m. 1889, Henry Giles Berryman, b. 1859 Zennor, Cornwall
d. 1948, Nelson
Willie Goldsmith Bowles
b. 1866, Timaru
m. 1892, Mary Jane Page Wycherley, b. 1857 West Indies
m. 1918, Maud Hardwick (nee Doel), b. 1879 Waimate
d. 1941, Waimate
Didn't sleep well last night - kept waking up and thinking about Bowles and Goldsmith and Day. :D
Best wishes to all
Koromo
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Lol, all mine
Tis indeed, James Nind m Ellen Blackmore ..1905
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LOL! Damn keyboards!!!!
The Blackmore name doesn't ring any bells, but who knows what I've yet to discover. There isn't an Ellen Mayfield to a Blackmore lurking on the index, is there?
K.
:)
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1899
Helen MAYFIELD to John Davy BLACKMORE.......
Bren.
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Good grief! I can't believe it!
IF she started out as Helen Day, b. 1848/9 Deal, Kent (as per FreeBMD and the censuses)
- she married her first husband, Robert Mayfield, at age 15 in 1865, Deal (as Ellen)
- her second husband, John Blackmore, at age 49 in 1899, NZ
- her third husband, James Nind, at age 55 in 1905
It fits the 1913 will of Ann Eliza Goldsmith (née Day) leaving items to her sister Ellen Nind, but it's a bit tortuous!
Thanks, Bren
K. :)
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Hi Koromo
I’m so excited for you!!!
It took 3 phone calls to track her down, but it’s definitely the right family, she is a descendant of Elizabeth Sarah Bowles.
She said her Dad went to live with the “Rev Lewis” when he started work in the Hutt Valley!!
She was delighted to be able to talk about the BOWLES family and I think would have reminisced all day!
Her sight is not too good and suggested I ring her daughter (which I had already tried) as she is into Family History too and has a computer. Will try again tonight when she is home from work, or tomorrow to get hold of her.
Perhaps you could PM me your name and email address.
Now, about Polly.
She told me she was Fanny Barabus(sic) BOWLES, always known as Polly and a teacher in Waimate.
On checking the marriages there is:
1874
Fanny Basshaba BOWLES
James A BOYD
… think I would stick with Polly too!!
but that poses another riddle as I didn’t find a birth in NZ for a Fanny…
Oh well, sounds like this lady and her family know all about Fanny and are equally interested to know about your Minnie Ellen Goldsmith BOWLES.
Bren
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I don't know what to say!
Elizabeth Sarah Bowles went to live near Dannevirke and had 13 children so there had to be many descendants out there, and then to find one whose father had stayed with my gt-grandparents Rev Lewis and Minnie from Waimate - well, I'm speechless.
Bren, I'll never be able to thank you enough for persevering with my Bowles family.
I'll just sit here quietly and read your post for the hundredth time!
Koromo
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Hi Koromo
Yes she mentioned 13 children, I think she said her dad was the youngest.
I think she will be a great source of information for you. She sounded so genuinely delighted that I had phoned.
Unfortunately no reply from the daughter's phone, so will try again tomorrow. Might have to wait until the evening as I have visitors for lunch (Father's Day), so don't think I have forgotten you...
I guess it's a bit early in the day for you to have a stiff drink!!
Bren
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I guess it's a bit early in the day for you to have a stiff drink!!
LOL! Tis a bit, but it's coming up to lunch! ;D
Hope these phone calls aren't costing you a packet. Have an enjoyable Father's Day. :)
Kind regards
Koromo
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Hi ..have only just joined this website ...& don't have internet access at home ... so am relying on visits to the local library!
Was interested to read the messages on this site ...especially as Henry Giles Berryman is related to me ... he was a nephew to my Great Great Great Grandfather!!
I wonder if anyone can help me find out anything about his children ..I've already tracked down information on his son Stanley ... & I gathered one more son's name from your message board ...but i wonder if there were any more children .... in my Great grandmother's possessions there were clippings from New Zealand showing Stanley Berryman & W. O. Berryman (I wondered if they might have been brothers!) ... & there was also a photograph of a little girl aged about 7 named Ruth May Berryman .. at Mount Noble. Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks
James
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Hi James
Welcome to RootsChat :)
Have you found Stanley Berryman's photo here yet?
Auckland War Museum database (http://muse.aucklandmuseum.com/databases/general/RecordDetail.aspx?datasetID=503&SearchID=540804&Ordinal=1&Dataset=Cenotaph&OriginalID=1101)
I've only just learned about the Berryman connection to 'my' Bowles family, so I don't know very much yet. I did find a bit of info from this post on a forum to do with military medals: British Medal Forum (http://www.britishmedalforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=146489&sid=68f493d5e75122bcbcd9646de80a8332)
I haven't found any connection between the NZ Berrymans with the VC winner, John Berryman at Balaclava - are they all related? It appears that Henry Giles Berryman was from your part of the world whereas John Berryman VC was born in Dudley, Worcestershire.
I am very hopeful that someone from the NZ Berryman family might soon be in touch and be able to provide further information.
Cheers
Koromo
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Hi James
There are these marriages:
1931
Ruth May BERRYMAN
John ORGIAS
1934
Stanley BERRYMAN
Lilian SNOWDEN
(is this a son of the Stanley you mentioned?)
Bren
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Bren & Koromo - thank you so much for your help - very interesting!
Have received information today that Henry Giles Berryman & his wife Eva had two children: Mable & William Oswald, & with his second wife , Mary, had 4 children : Frederick, Stanley, Ruth May & Hugh - as yet i don't have any dates for any of the children. Can't believe how quickly the information has come my way via this website!
Can anyone help me find out which ship Henry Giles Berryman travelled to NZ on, & when.
Good luck in your research! James
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Hi James
The likeliest that I've found is the Wairoa, which sailed out to NZ in 1877. A Henry Berriman is listed as a farm labourer from Cornwall, aged 19.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~ourstuff/Wairoa1877.htm
Looks good, doesn't it!
Cheers
Koromo
:)
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Hi James
Marriages:
1910
Mabel BERRYMAN
Bruce GRAHAME
1917
Mabel Elizabeth BERRYMAN
George RUTHERFORD
1875
William BERRYMAN
Mary GREENING
1915
William BERRYMAN
Emily Amelia BROWN
(No marriages for a William Oswald)
Bren.
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Thanks guys!!
Yes ...the Wairoa seems to be very likely as the ship Henry Giles Berryman came over on in 1877.
Thanks for the marriage dates too ... all useful pieces in this fascinating jigsaw puzzle!!!
James
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On closer inspection, the Henry Berriman on Wairoa was 30 years old ...which makes him a bit too old to be Henry Giles Berryman, I reckon ....any more ideas?
James
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James, you're right, he is listed as being 30 and not the misaligned 19! Ages on passenger lists can be extremely inaccurate, but I agree that being ~10 years out is a bit disturbing. Most passenger lists that are found online are transcribed by volunteers and I haven't a clue how many ships don't appear on the various lists - hundreds? thousands?
If Henry Giles Berryman/Berriman was a NZ government immigrant, there must have been an official record kept somewhere. Does anyone know if such records still exist?
Bren, I have been in contact with the person you rang and she is checking through her info. ;D
Cheers
Koromo
:)
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Maybe someone out there will come up with the answer to that one Koromo ... fingers crossed!!
James
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Hi Koromo
So glad you have made contact. I've been wondering how you got on.
I got an email last night in reply to a letter I wrote a couple of weeks ago. The first EVER reply to the dozens I have written, so I'm anxiously waiting for them to get back to me next week.
Bren.
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James, ArchivesNZ hold some records for government-assisted immigrants, but unfortunately they are not online. See http://www.archives.govt.nz/docs/pdfs/Ref_Guide_Migration.pdf
Bren: I have now been to a LDS centre and understand what it's like to search through films. I knew the dates of the people I was looking up, but everyone says to look at the source of the IGI entries just in case there is any more detail. Sadly, there wasn't! Never mind, I've learned a lot. I'm going back on Saturday with a digital camera to see if I can get a reasonable shot of the parish register entries on the film reader's screen - then a quick dash to watch a certain rugby match!
Through the Bowles descendant you phoned, we are still working out who Polly was and I am coming back to thinking she was Mary Redman Bowles. However, Fanny Basshaba Bowles is still a mystery - it's possible that she is from an entirely different Bowles family and I would need to get her marriage cert to verify her parents. Trouble is, I have other priorities with regards to buying more certs - she might have to remain on hold for the moment.
Delighted to hear that all your letter writing has come to fruition at last. Such patience! Hope it turns into a goldmine of information for you.
Regards
Koromo
:)
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Thanks Koromo ... will follow that up!
Have been contacted by a Henry Giles BERRYMAN descendant ...who sent me details of their family ..they listed Mary Redman Berryman (nee BOWLES) , with Polly in brackets after the name - the lady who sent it to me's husband was their Great Grandson ...so hopefully that might prove useful to you.
James
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Hi Koromo
Don’t know if this will help or confuse things even more, but here are the details of the ITM for Fanny BOWLES:
James Augustus Boyd, Bachelor, Painter, 21, Wellington, 18yrs
Fanny Barshaba BOWLES, Spinster, d Jesse BOWLES Porirua Rd Labourer, 18, Wellington, 18yrs
Primitive Methodist Chapel, Sydney St; Rev R WARD
Jesse BOWLES, father, gave permission for the bride to marry.
Bren.
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Hello Bren
I think you have solved the mystery of Fanny, and you've saved me $20! With the wrong father's name, and at 18 years old and resident for 18 years, she has to have been born in NZ in ~1856 which is 3 years before 'my' Bowles family emigrated from the UK. Pity she doesn't belong - Basshaba/Barshaba is an interesting name to have on one's tree.
According to the Berryman descendant, Mary Redman Bowles was also known as Mary Manchester after her mother married again but didn't get on with her step-father and went to live with the Goldsmiths in Waimate. She became known as Mary Goldsmith for a while before reverting to her Bowles name whilst teaching there. No wonder there is such confusion over these two families!
Thank you :) for taking the time to look for the ITM. I can stop wondering about Fanny now.
Regards
Koromo
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Hi Koromo,
James Nind, who married Ellen Blackmore (nee Day) in 1905; is my great grandmother's uncle and I have information on him.
regards Carole
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Hi Carole and welcome to Rootschat! :D
So, James Nind is one of your family - he has such an unusual name. I have his death on 28 Nov 1915, Waimate, but I would be interested to know his birthdate and where born. Was his first wife an Emma?
Helen Nind (previously Blackmore, formerly Mayfield, née Day) had a daughter by her first marriage to Robert Mayfield in Kent. She was Ellen Eliza Ann Mayfield, b. 1866. Do you know if she ended up in NZ as well?
This thread has become the repository of info about members of the Waimate Bowles/Day families, and I'm delighted that you have happened along too! :)
Regards
Koromo
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Hi Koromo,
Yes James Nind died on 28 Nov 1915 in Waimate, South Canterbury, NZ. He was born 3 Jun 1842 in Brackley, Northamptonshire son of Caleb Nind and Elizabeth Evans.
His first wife was Mary Ann Jeacock and they had three children: Elizabeth, Joseph and Sarah. Mary Ann died in Nov 1871 and the two girls died in 1864 and 1872.
Emma was the second wife and she and James married in 1874 just before they left for New Zealand with James's son Joseph. James' brother Joseph and wife and their niece Emma and her husband Daniel Averis (my great grandparents) all came out on the ship "Ballochmyle"".
Emma Nind died in Sep 1904 and James married Ellen Day formerly Blackmore on 10 Jul 1905 in Waimate. James was 63 and Ellen 57. She died on 2 Nov 1937. Ellen's former husband died in July 1901 according to the marriage certificate.
Unfortunately I do not know anything else about Ellen Day. Do you know when she came to New Zealand? Perhaps she brought her daughter with her.
If you could give me some details I may be able to do a bit of checking for you.
Regards Carole
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Hello Carole
It's all rather confusing, but if you fight your way through the pages in this thread you'll probably know as much as I do about Helen/Ellen Day - that's if I've got it right and helped hugely by Bren and Stephanie and others!
In summary:
Four sisters, the daughters of William and Ann Day who lived (mainly) in Deal in Kent, all made it out to New Zealand probably on different ships.
The eldest, Ann Eliza Day, b. 1826, Canterbury, Kent, married Samuel Goldsmith in Lambeth. They came out to NZ supposedly on the Strathallan around 1859 and settled in Waimate. They didn't have any children of their own.
Elizabeth Day, b. 1828, Canterbury, Kent, married John Bowles in Deal. They came out on the ship Mystery with their two eldest children arriving Lyttelton March 1859. After her husband John died in 1867, she married William Manchester. Elizabeth is my gr-gr-grandmother, and her daughter Minnie (gr-grandmother) was 'adopted' by her sister Ann Eliza Goldsmith née Day!
Caroline Day, b. 1840, Deal, Kent, married Joseph Flanders in Kent. I don't know if they both came out, but in 1882 Caroline married Isaac Archer in NZ.
Helen/Ellen Day, b. 1848, Deal, Kent, married Robert Henry Morton Mayfield in Kent 1865. Their daughter was born 1866, who in 1871 was with her grandparents in Deal, while her mother Ellen was a servant/nurse in Rochester, Kent. Ellen is next seen in NZ marrying John Blackmore in 1889, and James Nind in 1905.
Her daughter Ellen Eliza Ann Mayfield probably did end up in NZ because she is left money in Samuel Goldsmith's will - it is possible that she had stayed in the UK although unlikely. I don't know when the will was written, I'm guessing quite a long time before his death in 1895.
Where is Ellen Nind buried? I thought she was the one in the Waimate Cemetery, dying in 1918 even though her age is quite wrong (a transcription error, I decided! :-\). If she died in 1937, she had certainly outlived her sisters by a good few years.
Thanks for the info about James Nind. I do get a pleasure being able to put the right dates into my records, even for quite distant relatives.
Cheers
Koromo
:)
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Hi Koromo,
I have been looking through my notes to see what I can find for you. Firstly to clarify the Ellen Nind who died in 1918. She is the wife of Joseph Nind, James' brother.
I have the date of your Ellen's death as 2 Nov 1937 but that may need to be checked. If correct it would make her a fair age.
James Nind worked at Messrs Manchester Bros & Goldsmith on arrival in Waimate in 1874. His wife Nellie was Mrs Goldsmiths sister and when James and Ellen married one of the witnesses was an AE Goldsmith. Ellen Blackmore's husband died on 24 July 1901.
The 1921 Wises directory lists a Mrs Ella Nind in Waimate.
I have found in the marriage indexes the following:
Ellen Elizabeth Ann Mayfied married 1887 to Joseph Henry GRAY. This looks like the daughter.
Cheers Carole
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Christening Notes - Henry Giles Berryman
Zennor Cornwall Baptisms 23 Feb 1859 Henry Giles child of [None given] & Mary Berryman
(Single Woman) of Porthmear, Cornwall, England
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Hello Karaka, welcome to RootsChat :)
Thank you for the baptism of Henry Giles BERRYMAN, which confirms that he was illegitimate. Actually he is described as illegitimate on the 1861 census, and I find it 'interesting' that in 1851 his mother (with parents etc) is living two households away from a farmer named Henry GILES, with a 21-year-old son also called Henry!
Are you a NZ BERRYMAN descendant? I hope James - Cornwall, who has also contributed to this thread, sees your post too.
Cheers
Koromo
:)
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Hey!
Welcome Karaka! (& Hi again Koromo!)
Yeah ... interesting stuff ... I gather it wasnt unusual to name the child after the father in such circumstances, and with Henry Giles junr just down the road, I think he looks like a very likely contender!!
Karaka are you descended from the NZ Berrymans? (I am related to their line back in Cornwall, UK)
James
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I'm not able to help with your research but I have a FYI. My great grandmother's sister Sarah Agnes Fow married Samuel Richardson Skevington in 1890 & they had a daughter Edith Wycherley Bowles Skevington, born July 1899 & died Sept 1900. I'd always wondered about her name & found that Mary Jane Paget Wycherley married Willie Goldsmith Bowles in 1898. The Fow family & the Wycherley & Bowles families all came from Waimate, so I assume there was a friendship connection. Perhaps through the Methodist church ??
Cheers
Lorraine Wilson in Paeroa
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Hi Koromo
I am researching this tree for a New Zealand descendant.
On an earlier post you commented -
“I believe a younger brother Willie [Goldsmith] Bowles was similarly adopted, all this before legal adoption procedures were in place in NZ.”
New Zealand Births, Marriages & Deaths Online have his birth registered -
1866/21691 Bowles Willie Goldsmith to parents Elizabeth and John
I have not ordered his birth certificate however I would presume if his birth was registered to Elizabeth and John that he would in fact be their child?
Can you or anyone else confirm where he was born please. Researchers on Ancestry have him born in different locations i.e Waituna (as stated in his obituary), Waimate and Timaru.
My third great grandmother’s first husband was a Deal boatman from Walmer who sailed from Gravesend London on board the “Whitby’, preliminary voyage to Nelson New Zealand in 1841.
She arrived with her two surviving children, having lost her two youngest on the voyage, only to discover that her husband John Barnes had high tailed it back to England on the "Arrow" via China.
Mary met a man who had sailed out with her first husband. This man’s wife and two daughters, for unknown reasons had not boarded the Lloyds as planned.
It is all so very interesting.
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Hi All,
Although this enquiry is "completed" I would like to interject with some DNA proof for the BOWLES connection back to the UK. I am a genetic genealogist and descendant of the BOWLES family discussed in these posts but on the UK side.
Although I represent the DNA of over 25 tested descendants, we could not (until a few days ago) be sure which of the many BOWLES family we connect to without DNA. It is a common name in Kent and it has been 46+ years in the research without advance until this breakthrough.
As the connection is quite distant, finding single matching DNA segments is often open to luck. Finding 5 DNA matches in NZ on Ancestry, all descendants of mariner John Jones BOWLES from Deal who settled in NZ, was fortuitous. We are talking DNA matches with 7th cousins, i.e. MRCAs are mutual 6x greats Thomas BOWLES & Anne HORN(E). It has therefore been possible to find the correct paper trail and push back to the start of English records.
I am available discuss. I am particularly keen to hear from any direct descendants in NZ or elsewhere who have DNA tested with any company. If you have not already done so, please copy your DNA file to GEDmatch as it costs nothing and allows proper forensic matching. Let me know your GEDmatch number when you reply. FB users can reply via Messenger to "The Geneal Geologist" personal page or through my FB research blogs "The Family of Jeremiah Grace" or "My English Genealogy".
I am particularly keen to hear from my personal DNA match on Ancestry named "Koromiko Lodge". I assume this is "Koromiko" on this forum. There have been no replies to outreach from any of the DNA matches on Ancestry, so please respond there if you wish, as the DNA match is explained.
In addition to the genetic trail I note that many trees on Ancestry (and subsequently copied to Geneanet) have the wrong Phineas or Finnes/Finnis BOWLES as the ancestor to this family. The major have opted for the gentry (a Lord Lieutenant) of the same name rather than the longstanding multigenerational family of mariners operating out of the Cinque Ports that John Jones BOWLES was a member of. It would be good to get all our trees aligned, if we are willing and able. The same applies to some of the BOWLES spouses where some assumptions have been made, but several lines use those maiden names in grandchildren to help guidance.
Many thanks for your consideration. I look forward to hearing from you.