RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Devon => England => Devon Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Valley on Sunday 19 August 07 11:28 BST (UK)
-
Hi Good Morning
What happend to my Thomas Newton Plymouth he was married to Mary had three children George, Charles, and Sarah Susan Jane, in 1871 was listed as being a marriner, then Mary marries again to mumford and saunders and Bennett busy lady? Thomas would have been my GG Grandfather I have not had any luck finding a death for him or maybe he died at sea although on his son George Marriage cert 1897 says he is still alive but maybe that info is wrong as sometimes this was the case.
If anyone can help I would be grateful.
Regards
Val
-
When did Mary marry again? do you have the dates for her other marriages?
this wil help look for a death for Thomas.
-
Hi
Mary Marries Charles Mumford JFM Qtr 1873 - Richard Saunders 1881 AMJ Qtr not sure when she marries John Bennett.
Regards Val
-
Hi Val
I just want to make sure I have the correct family here:
1871
Charles, Plymouth devon
Thomas Newton head mar 22 Mariner
Mary wife mar 23 Mariners wife b Broadhempston, Devon
George son 2 mariner's son b plymouth
Sarah dau 8 months mariner's dau b Plymouth
the reason I am asking is that there is no Charles. Also I am not sure of Thomas' place of birth ...It has been transcribed as Sutton in Ashfield, Devon although on the original, next to Sutton in Ashfield it looks like the word "NOTTS" has been written in .
ahh have just checked 1881 and I see Charles aged 8, along with all the Mumford and Saunders children ;D
I will keep looking for Thomas
deb
-
hi again
this might be her marriage:
John BENNETT
Mary SAUNDERS
dec q 1881, Plymouth
vol 5b pg 538
she was a busy girl wasn't she ? ;D
deb
-
I was just looking at my last post and thinking how could she have married 2 guys in one year ... Richard Saunders June q 1881 and then John Bennett in Dec q 1881....
There is a death of a Richard Saunders in Plymouth ...June q 1881 ....
oh my ...this is rather confusing ....could this be correct ???
what do you think ?
Would she have married, lost her husband and then married again all in the same year ?
She is definitely with John Bennett in 1891 along with all the children!
deb :-\
-
Hi Deb,
What an unfortunate lady or she laced their tea with something !! ;)
DJ
-
BTW ...What was Mary Newton/Mumford/Saunders/Bennett's maiden name?
Was it Blackler? :-\
deb
DJ ...I was thinking the same thing ... maybe there is MORE to this story LOL ;D :o
-
hi
Cannot find a death for Thomas Newton between 1871 (when he is with Mary and 2 children) and 1873 (when Mary marries Charles Mumford)!
There is, however, a few marriages for Thomas Newton in Plymouth after 1873. Did people get divorced in those days?
There is this death which may be a possible:
Thomas Newton
b abt 1850
d Mar q 1898
Axminster, devon
Charles , Mary's son b 1873, must have been just born when she married Mr. Mumford.
deb
-
amazing!
I lead such a mundane life!
I think this is one where a few certs are going to be a MUST to see what the various hubbys died of, and whether she describes herself as widow or what on her marriage to Mumford.
-
I am in awe of this woman .... It gets so confusing when looking at all the censuses ....there are so many children ...she could not possibly have had all of them ...I am sure that some of them were the husband's by their first marriages ... although , who knows at this stage ....
maybe I should type out all the census so that we can see what's going on ... I keep having to refer back , which is soooo time consuming, in order to try and keep things in order.
If Mary's maiden name was Blackler, it means that her 1st 2 children were born before she married ...Blimey Blimey :o :o
deb ;D
-
Hi All
All Very confusing isnt it maybe children were Thomas;s before he married Mary Just a thought So many childrenn and Husbands but it still confusing Just cant seen to get to the bottom of it all.
Thanks everyone for the help you are giving
Val
-
Hi Val
Glad you are here with us ... Do you know mary's maiden name ?
just for everyone's sake ...This is 1881...1871 is in a previous post
1881
28 lower st, Charles, Plymouth
Richard SAUNDERS head mar 34 gen lab
mary wife mar 32
George Septimus? NEWTON son of 1st husb. 12
Sarah Susan Jane NEWTON dau of 1st husb. 10
Charles John NEWTON son of 1st 8
Agnes maud MUMFORD Dau of 2nd husb. 6
Charles Nicholas SAUNDERS son of 3rd 9
Charles James MUMFORD son of 2nd 4
William Richard SAUNDERS son of 3rd 7
George Nicholas SAUNDERS son of 3rd 3
Annie Maud SAUNDERS dau 3
phew!!
deb
-
Hi
Almost certain it was Blackler. But same as you found her marriage to Thomas after George was born. George was my G Grandfather we know charles went to Canada died c1923 of TB he also has family there George died in South Africa in 1904 he was in the Army Dragoons 3rd and a sgt died of liver complaint. mary was a girl wasnt she !! all them Husbands and children beggers beleif? I never found a death for Thomas and on Georges marriage cert says sailor Royal Navy and that was 1897 but could have been dead by then as not all certs were correct were they.
Regards Val
-
3 x Charles
2 x George
Saunders age 9, Newton age 8 , Mumford age 7, but married to Saunders currenty
Must be several children who were from the various husbands previous marriages, and not MAry's
-
I agree Liz ...
Val ...have you got George Septimus NEWTON's birth cert ...That would hopefully clear up who his mother was ...
George Septimus Newton
June q 1868, Plymouth
vol 5b pg 261
Would be nice to know how Richard Saunder's died :)
will search further
deb
-
hi
1891
still in Lower street, Charles
John BENNETT head mar 52 dock lab
mary wife mar 43
John NEWTON step son assistant blacksmith
James MUMFORD step son 15 employed .biscuit factory
Agnes MUMFORD step dau 16
Jane BENNETT dau 8
John BENNETT son 7
Edith BENNETT dau 5
Sarah Haslon dau mar 21
Thomas HASLON son-in-law merchant seaman b Lancashire
?? Haslon gr dau 2
Alfred Thos BENNETT son 2months
deb :)
-
Hi
I will have to log out soon because at work at mo will log in again later at home.
Thanks everyone for help.
Val
-
okay Val ,see you later ...hopefully we will have found the elusive Thomas !
deb :)
-
hi
1901; Plymouth
Mary BENNETT head widow 45
John NEWTON son S 28 engine driver (stationary)
agnes NEWTON dau S 25
James NEWTON son S 23 hobbler (coal porter)
John BENNETT son S 18 sawyer mills lab
Alfred BENNETT son10
Nellie BENNETT dau 6
Henry Maine lodger 71 living on own means
maybe these are HER children, there is no mention of step children!
I wonder if she ever married again ... as she was only 45 in 1901 .... ;D
deb
no sign of Thomas still :-\
-
Hi
Back on line
I do not know who John newton or Agnes newton is ? thought agnes was a Mumford maybe changed her name?
-
hI DEB
Ihave birth cert says mary blackler father Thomas newton seems odd to me as george was born before marriage in 1872/3
-
Hi Val
it's all very confusing .... I think we should try and find birth reg for the kids... as you said ...Agnes was a Mumford, as was James.
I have had sitautions like yours ... where my Grandad was born 4 years before his parents got married ...his mother , however, used the married name to register him, even though she was not yet married :-\
I will check the 1901 census again to make sure I transcribed it properly ...
deb
-
back ...
it was written like this
John NEWTON son 28 ....
Agnes do. dau
James do. son
not a mention of step son/dau :-\
ummm , maybe a mistake on the census takers part ... I don't know, as we do not know who was giving him the info .... maybe one of the BENNETT kids was and didn't know that they were MUMFORDS ...maybe a family secret ::)
deb
will check further
-
Hi
cant find birth for JOHN JAMES OR AGNESS NEWTON must be mumfords the plot thickens
-
Hi
Unless Thomas still around and they are his from second marriage?
-
But If Mary gave the info, would she have said that Thomas' kids from a second marriage , were hers ???
oh my ...A Mystery ... yippeee ;D
deb
-
Hi
My father never spoke about his family and I can see why to complicated to go into all he ever said what do you want to know about them for!! perhaps he was as confused as we are!
-
I dont know if it helps, but I have been trying to get all these children in to some sort of organised chronilogical order - bit of a struggle, but here goes!!
George
1871 - George Newton, age 2
1881 - George Septimus Newton, age 12
1891 & 1901 not with mum
Sarah
1871 - Sarah Newton, age 8 months
1881 - Sarah Susan Jane Newton, age 10
1891 - Sarah Haslon (married) age 21
1901 - not with mum
Charles Nicholas
1881 - Charles Nicholas Saunders, age 9
Charles John
1881 - Charles John Newton, age 8
1891 - John Newton, no age
William Richard
1881 - William Richard Saunders, age 7
Agnes Maud
1881 - Agnes Maud Mumford, age 6
1891 - Agnes Mumford, age 16
1901 - Agnes Newton, age 25
Charles James
1881 - Charles James Mumford. age 4
1891 - James Mumford, age 15
1901 - James Newton, age 23
George Nicholas
1881 - George Nicholas Saunders, age 3
Annie MAud
1881 - Alice Maud Saunders, age 3
Jane
1891 - Jane Bennet, age 8
John
1891 - John Bennet, age 7
1901 - John Bennet, age 18
Edith
1891 - Edith Bennet, age 5
Alfred
1891 - Alfred Thomas Bennet. age 2 months
1901 - Alfred Bennet age 10
Nellie
1901 Nellie Bennet, age 6
-
Hi
Thanks for that seems sometimes they were newtons sometimes mumfords found marriage for mary Saunders and Bennett 1881 OND Qtr
Perhaps Thomas just went off never came back. George S would have been in Army in 1891 1901 he was in India and South Africa and had good friend here in Sussex a guy called H Garrett he married his half sister in 1897
-
Conclusions:
The two Mumford children, on reaching their teens, took the surname Newton.
Charles John Newton, and Charles James Mumford used their middle names once Charles Nicholas Saunders arrived on the scene.
-
Hi
Think will call a day for today seems to get more complicated by the minute
Speak soon maybe I will find something out will send for Thomas and mary marriage cert may tell us a little more maybe not
Val
-
I was trying to find a 1st wife for Richard Saunders ... I was thinking that she was maybe a'Nicholas' as both boys had the same middle name .... to no avail ...maybe I should recheck ...maybe they were married earlier than their first child, Charles Nicholas Saunders . CN Saunders was 9 in the 1881 census, so born abt 1873....
maybe I should look for children born prior to 1873 with Nicholas Saunders as part of their name ...
ummmm
deb :-\
-
Hi Liz and val and everyone :)
Okay , I am even having trouble finding birth registrations;
I think these may be correct:
Annie Maud T SANDERS Dec q 1877 Plymouth
Nicholas Charles T SANDERS june q 1871 plymouth (why did he swap his name around ...that is if he is the correct Sanders/Saunders :-\)
I cannot find George Nicholas SAUNDERS/SANDERS ...ummmm just rechecked 1881 census ...sorry I made a mistake George Nicholas Saunders was 5 and not 3, so born 1876 (I was thinking that Alice maud and George Nicholas were twins as I had them both as 3 years old in 1881 ooops sorry ! :-[ )
still not able to find George's birth
deb
-
:)
there is also a William Richard T SANDERS
mar 1873, Plymouth
Whats with the "T" in their names .... there are a few others born Plymouth around that time with the "T" in it ...I will check to see if they died as they were not in any of the census ...
anyway ..I have to cook dinner , I must admit I don't want to , I would rather be sniffing around a mystery LOL ;D
sorry have got carried away and forgot to look for your Thomas NEWTON , Val .... I will be back on the hunt soon ...
deb
-
Just looking through the dates again. I reckon none of the Saunders children are Mary's (Charles, William, George, and Annie Maud) but all his children from a previois marriage. She took them all on early in 1881, but then he dies!!! none of the Saunders children seem to stay with her by 1891, they are all resonably grown up, so may have made their own way in the world, or they may have gone to live with other Saunders rellies after their father's death, not having been with Mary and her brood long enough to have bonded with them as family.
If you take the Saunders children out of the equation, it leaves:
George, Sarah and Charles Newton
then married Mumford 1873
has Agnes and Charles Mumford
then briefly married Saunders in 1881 and takes on his brood just over the census time
then marries Bennet in 1881
has Jane, John, edith, Alfred and Nellie.
Still complicated, but I think .... well ... maybe... it is just a little.... a very little....clearer in my own mind!
-
Hi
Thanks for that Liz... it does make things clearer :)
I am still looking for Thomas ... would you recheck the 1871 ( Thomas and Mary NEWTON with 2 children... Sarah and George) for me ... as I am still unsure of Thomas' place of birth. Earlier in this thread , I made mention of the writing next to POB ... it looked like NOTTS to me ...
What do you think ?
deb
-
Hi
I think that maybe there was a mistake make on the 1901 where Agnes Maud and Charles James were written down as NEWTON instead of MUMFORD... This is all assumption of course as we do not have the 1911 to confirm this ..... (Jeezzz I wish 1911 was out ;D)....
anyway .. I found this marriage:
Charles James MUMFORD to either Jessie Lacey or Mabel Neilson, Mar 1906 Plymouth Devon. Could not find a marriage for a Charles James Newton in Plymouth!
back to looking for Thomas ... :-\
deb
-
If you go to the National Archives site
at
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/
and click on the Royal Navy Personnel box, then key in Thomas Newton of Plymouth...
It comes up with 1 record of a CHARLES Thomas Newton in 1877.
Could this be him? He could certainly be a Charles, known as Thomas, that seems to run in the family! Might be worth £3-50 to see this document and see if it helps.
If it IS him, it means he was around when she married Mumford in 1873. Would also like to see her marriage certs!
-
LIZ
I have ALSO been on National archives all morning looking for ANYTHING to do with this family ... LOL :o
At the moment I am trying to find a birth registration for Thomas Newton b abt 1849 ...... There is one that comes up , but that Thomas was reg in Honiton , Devon . I see that Sutton in Ashfield is supposedly in Charles, Plymouth. I have never heard of it before :-\
I will look at what you found ....
Liz , could you check the 1871 census for me ...re; Thomas Newton's POB..thanks
deb
-
Sorry, dont have access to 1871, only the free stuff!!!!
I have been working on children's births. I know you have found some already, but here is my list of births of children who I reckon could be Mary's (working on the assumption that the Saunders children arrived with Mr S and left when he died)
All Plymouth
George Septimus Newton AMJ 1868 5b 261
Sarah Susan J Newton JAS 1870 5b 246
Charles John Newton OND 1872 5b 243
CANT FIND CHARLES OR AGNES MUMFORD
Jane Bennett JFM 1883 5b 260
John Bennett JAS 1884 5b 260
Edith Harriett Bennett JFM 1886 5b 242
Alfred Cyril Bennett AMJ 1891 5b 285
Nellie Bennett OND 1894 5b 215
-
Hi All
Back on line at work, Thomas I thought was from Sutton in Ashfield app Derbyshire could be devon not sure. Again Thanks for helping with Mystery I went to kew but found nothing on Thomas Newton thought I may try again . Honiton is not far from Plymouth as the crow flys . Charles John newton Married a lady called Florence Avery and went to Canada. he died 1924 of TB been in contact with reletive there and she says she has photos of mary and all her children says she will mail them to me,
Val
-
Hi
births:
Agnes Maud Mumford
Jun q 1874 Plymton St Mary devon
then there si this:
Charles James MUMFORD
Dec q 1875
Plymton
ummm maybe too old for our Charles
James Charles C Mumford
Mar 1878
Plymton
date is good , but name swapped around .. :-\
I will check the censuses again ..to see POB's for both again
deb
-
Back to the original question of what happened to Thomas, I would say the next move would be to get Mary's marriage cert to Mumford:
Jan/Feb/Mar 1873 Plymouth.
Mary Newton to Charles Mumford
(Charles!!Now there's a surprise!)
ref 5b 407
and see what SHE says happened to Thomas (ie does she say 'widow' or somethimg else?)
-
sorry forgot to add Thomas Newton
birth reg: Thomas Newton
sept 1849 Honiton, Devon
vol 10 pg 103
deb
-
AHa - those Mumford births look possible - but it means that she moved house during the 'Mumford' era.
She remains static in 1881 and 1891 (the Saunders and Bennet eras - the men come to her!!)
Where was she in 1871? Do we have an address more than just Plymouth?
But 1875-7 ish she is in Plympton.
(Dont know the area, sounds nearby! But far enough away to be a different registration area!)
-
Hi
Will send for Cert see what it says. She cert did not hang about with her hubbies did she married thomas in c1871/2 then in 73 married again I have George B/Cert def says Thomas and mary.
-
Hi Again
Plymton is in Plymouth reg district
-
i've just noticed - she was a widow again in 1901! So hubby no 4 ddint last long either!
(There is a marriage in Plymouth in JAS 1907 of a Mary Bennett, to a John James Rorie or an Ernest Oswald Williams. I wonder.....)
-
Hi Again
Plymton is in Plymouth reg district
The Agnes Mumford birth is in the index under the Registration District 'Plymton St Mary' - so that is a separate reg district to Plymouth. The index only gives registration districts, not parishes within those districts.
see
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/plympton%20st%20mary.html
for parishes within Plympton St Mary reg distr
-
Sorry to but in again and to be of NO help what so ever ;D
This lady must have had some fabulous assets or she was really Moll Flanders :D in fact she beats ole moll ;)
I can hardly follow all this but it's very interesting and mysterious !!!
Dj
-
Hi
This woman is keeping me busy ..lol ..I have to keep remembering her different surnames for each census ...i was going to look her up under Mumford ..LOL
in 1871 she is still in Charles Plymouth...different street ... 6 Pottery Court.
In 1881:
Charles Newton , the Mumford and the Saunders children are stated as being born in Plymstock .....
Liz ..I also noticed that marriage in 1907 ...I thought that if Henry Maine was on that page I would have fallen out of my chair ....Henry Maine was the 71 year Lodger who was living with her in 1901 ..... ;D ;D
deb
-
I thought EXACTLY the same!!!!!
-
Got to log off time to go home noe will order cert tonight on line, its so nice to talk to someone about this confusing family I would love to just get it right but maybe never will find out the hole truth of it.
No wonder nobody spoke of it.
Val
-
DJ
You are not butting in!! Come and join the fun!
(You dont happen to live in Plymouth do you, with a fortnight to spare to go through every parish register in the district for Newtons, Mumfords, Saunders and Bennetts? Or even just an afternoon to go through Plymstock in the Plympton area just for Mumford's? and maybe Saunders?)
-
Bye valley
I think it is beginning to make sense, but to really sort it you will need to buy a lot of certs, or else spend a lot of time going through parish records (assuming she had the children christened!!!)
-
Hi
Look at these two births:
Emma BLACKLER MUMFORD
Sept 1863, Totnes
vol 5b pg 168
Mary's maiden name was Blackler , and one of her surnames was MUMFORD lol ::) ::)
will investigate
then there is this one :
James Nicholas T MUMFORD
Mar 1886
Plymouth
vol 5b pg 287
That is anm interesting one as the SAUNDERS/SANDERS birth that I found had "Nicholas T" as their middle names !!!!!
Has everyone left me ? :-\ LOL
deb
PS I am looking at the WELSH census ..There are a couple of NEWTON's born Honiton there ....
-
Hi
Just looked at George Septimus Birth cert says born 10/05/1868
Father Thomas Newton mother Mary Newton Formaly Blackler 10 sutton court Charles the martyr Plymouth Father Seaman Royal navy Could nor write as its her mark reg 19 may 1868 Just about to order other cert
-
VAL
Do you have Mary's marriage cert....certS LOl
if you do what is her dad's name , were any of her siblings witnesses....the reason I am asking is that there is a whole lot of wills and documents on National Archives , concerning BLACKLER people!!!!!
Re: the previous birth reg of Emma Blackler MUMFORD ...
her parents marriage:
Emma BLACKLER to Henry MUMFORD
dec 1859
Plymton St mary Devon
vol 5b pg 416
In 1861 they were living in Totnes..no kids
In 1871:
Oxfordshire
William LEWIS
Emma j LEWIS 31 b Cornwood, devon
Sarah MUMFORD 9 b Totnes
EMMA MUMFORD 7 b Totnes
William LEWIS
I wonder if these Blackler Mumfords are related to MARY?
deb
can't wait for the certs to get to you !!! ;D
-
Hi
just going to order Mary Thomas marriage cert 5b 408 1871 as well
-
Hi Me again
maybe she was serial Bigamist !!
-
oh my , what a woman ...
she did the same thing when registering George Septimus Newton's birth as what my gt grandmother did ... used married surname , when not yet married LOL
deb
-
Have ordered marriage certs x 2 could be interesting
-
Much as I would like to stay on line have to have dinner tonight with step son speak soon
Val
-
Hiya, no sorry i don't live in Plymouth- doing research for a friend in that area and that's why i noticed the thread.
No- she doesn't have a link with these names :)
i'll help tho if i can -
Dj
-
Morning all!
that Blackler/Mumford birth is interesting - but at least you proved it is not another of Mary's, if parents were Emma Blackler and Henry Mumford (Our Mary married Charles Mumford)
What we havnet done, and what would be interesting if anyone has access, is to find Mary in 1861 and 1851, with her family, she should be Blackler then. Can see if she has sister Emma. Who knows, she may be living next door to Newtons, or Mumfords, or Saunders, or Bennetts.
This would also help establish her fathers name, so that when the marriage certs arrive (cant wait!) it will be more obvious that theu are her.
I guess that is another scenario - that there is more than one Mary around, though the way the children tie up through the censuses implies it IS the same family throughout.
-
1861 RG9/1434/53/57
george blackler age 41. b. torbrand,devon. occ. quarry man. head.
sarah blackler age 37. b. broadenstone,devon. wife.
george blackler age 17. b. broadenstone,devon. occ. labourer. son.
mary blackler age 12. b. broadenstone,devon. daughter.
hannah blackler age 10. b. broadenstone,devon. daughter.
james blackler age 6. b. alderney,channel islands. son.
sarah blackler age 3weeks. b. plymouth. daughter.
living at teak or teal hill,sutton on plym,devon
-
sorry forgot to say that on the same page is robert saunders age 50 and william saunders age 10.
-
think this is the same family in 1851 the source citation is HO107/1871/384/12.
have to go out now but if no-one has posted the full entry for you .
i will post it tonight.
-
Hi everyone
Thanks for that Wozzle ....
1851
Village of Broad Hempston
George Blackler head mar 35 ag lab b Lytton, cornwall
Sarah wife mar 31 b Broad Hempston
George son 8 b BH
Mary dau 4 b BH
Susanna dau 8 months b BH
lodging with them are the Cowley family
George and Sarah (parents) seem to be messing around with their ages ! :-\ also george is now born in Cornwall and not Devon ummmm
I think this may be their marriage:
George BLACKLER to Sarah COWLEY
Dec 1843 Newton Abbot, Devon
vol 10 pg 275
There are a few BLACKLER Families in this village .... Some of them are farmers with lots of acreage , one is even a landed proprietor/surveyor & engineer.
deb
-
:)
back To Thomas NEWTON .... woohoooo I have found him in 1851:
Holbrook, Derbyshire
New Zeland St/rd
Septimus NEWTON head mar 42 framework knitter S G b Derby, Heanor
Grace mar wife 43 framework knitter b Horsley, derbyshire
Edwin son 8 b Holbrook, Derbyshire
THOMAS son 3 b Nottinghamshire, Sutton in Ashfield
1841:
still living at the same place as above
Septimus NEWTON 30 silk hose m.
Grace Newton 30
William Newton 2
all born in county
I wonder if Thomas went back to his POB after 1871.....
will check
deb ;D
-
IGI extracted
Septimus NEWTON to Grace BEMBRIDGE
4 July 1836
Duffield , Derby
:D :D
-
hi
Here's Thomas in 1861
Thoresby st, Snelling, Notts
John WELLS head mar 60 overlooker of cotton doubins? b middlesex, Healing
Grace wife mar 54 b Derby, Coxbench?
Edwin NEWTON son 19 frame work knitter b Holbrook, Derby
THOMAS NEWTON son 14 F w knitter b Notts, Sutton in Ashfield
John Winfield Boarder
possible death:
Septimus NEWTON
mar 1858, Nottingham, Notts
vol 7b pg 144
deb
-
Hi Again
I had found that family of Blacklers and I had already found Thomas With Septimus as a young boy.
Have ordered certs cant wait to see what they reveal they said about the 5 th sept
-
So - we have established that Thomas had a link with Nottinghamshire.
We have established that (if he is the father of Charles John Newton born O/N/D 1872) he must have been alive early 1872.
If the Mumford marriage we have found is correct, Mary remarries Jan/Feb/Mar 1873.
So - the 'window' in which could have died is fairly narrow.
Soooooo
this death from FreeBMD COULD be a possible:
JAn/Feb/MAr 1872 Radford Nottingham ref 7b 147
-maybe on leave from the navy, visiting rellies and ... whoops... got run over by bus / had heart attack / succomed to beri-beri caught whilst abroad in the Navy / whatever.
Well - can anyone else do better? !!!!! :)
-
do you think this may be a posibility!
Information removed due to copyright violation. See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/copyright.php for more details
RootsChat must deal with any breach of copyright by its members.
For some time the team of Copyright Editors has been removing breaches of copyright and sending detailed personal messages to the member that had posted the information. Due to the volume of posts and members this is now impractical. Messages in breach will simply be deleted and this notice posted. We apologise for any inconvenience caused but are sure you will appreciate the importance of this issue.
-
What's this ?
1851 census?
Hasnt Deb already found him then - with his dad Septimus, which all tied up nicely with his eldest son having middle name Septimus
-
ummm
What if Thomas changed his name hee hee , I got all excited earlier as i found a Thomas,b 1848 in Sutton in Ashfield with a wife and children ..he was a FRAME WORK KNITTER ..... but his surname was Morton ...not Newton ...
can't say I'm not trying ;D ;D
-
in 1881 there is a Thomas WELLS b Notts with a wife and child born in Devon .... remember his mother Grace married john wells .... will check it out ....
deb
-
Hi Deb
Long shot Thomas Newton - Stoke Damerel Devon 1881 cencus Ships steward Royal Navy living as a lodger in a family of Whitikers married to Elizebeth birth place wrong though - London!
-
Lots of possibles, deb, (plus the death in Nottingham I found) - but no way of confirming if any of them are th eright chap!
(Actually can confirm the death one way or other by getting cert - hopefully informant will be a family member, and should give his occupation, I think, which would help)
-
Will send for that later we should build up a picture with all the certs.
Val
-
Hi again
Okay ... going back to the beginning ... Thomas Newton stated as being the father on George S Newtons marriage cert ... does not mention that Thomas is deceased or not .
His daughter Sarah Susan jane newton married Thomas HASLAM (sic) mar q 1887 in Plymouth
vol 5b pg 408
there is a possible marriage for Charles james Newton in mar q 1892, Plymton St Mary ...no female name on page .... vol 5b pg 387
Val ...I know this is probably getting to be rather expensive for you ... but maybe those marriage certs would be handy , just to see if Thomas was stated as being deceased or not ...
the above marriages were after George Septimus' , so they could give us a better 'window' for Thomas' death ! :-\
what do you think?
deb
-
Hi Deb
I will get them certs as well I have also emailed this person in Canada who's grandfather was Charles Newton maybe she can shed some light on what happend. Its just a niggle but I think something not right with all this family. Just tried to get into ancestry and site is down will try again later
Speak soon
val
-
Hi Deb
I have found correct marriage for Charles J Newton 1903 OND Q 5B 498 i knew his wife was florence as lady in Canada told me that as he is her grandfather maybe he did marry before that as well will send for all certs.
-
Hi All
hope your having good weekend
Just to say I have ordered all the certificated should get them mid week will keep you posted.
I have also found another marriage for Sarah Susan Jane Newton 1st husband Thomas Haslam married in 1887 as she was born 1870 she was 17 also married again in 1905 not sure of husbands name as yet may send for that certificate as well either Herbert Maidment or James Roberts
Val
-
Hi Val
Having a good weekend so far ...it's a long weekend here ... labour Day is on Monday (my Daughters bday ... and yes I did labour hee hee)
Can't wait to see the certs .... This is purely conjecture, but I think Sarah Susan J Newton/Haslam may have married Mr Maidment as there is a birth registration for a James F ROBERTS sept Q 1913, plymouth, Mother's surname LYNCH.
The other female on the page where Sarah Haslam gets married for the 2nd time, her surname is LYNCH.
ie: James ROBERTS + miss LYNCH
Sarah Susan J HASLAM + Herbert MAIDMENT ...
I am missing playing with your family ;D
deb
-
hi again
in 1901:
Ragleigh street, St Andrew, Plymouth
Sarah HASLIP (sic) head wid 30 Housekeeper b Plymouth
(on original ...her surname is HASLIN)
looking for her huband's death ...ummmm will look further
deb ;D
-
Back again ;D
re: Sarah Susan and Thomas Haslam's daughter:
On the 1891 her name is NOT clear at all,
It has been transcribed as Reina haslam ..looks like it could be Anna . the only haslam birth that I can find is Mar q 1889, plymouth for a Grace Ann Haslam .
But where is Grace ann in 1901.... she would only be 12 and she is not with her mum, Sarah susan Jane haslam who is in St Andrew living by herself ... also where is Thomas' death ?
will look further. It seems like the women in this family hate to be without a husband ....
maybe Grace Ann was named after her gt grandmother ....
Septimus NEWTON married Grace BEMBRIDGE :D
deb
-
Okay here are 2 possibles for Thomas Haslam's death.
In 1891 he is with the whole family as their son-in-law ... stated as being born in Fleetwood, Lancashire b 1856.
death regs
Thomas HASLAM;
b 1856 died Dec q 1899, Bury, Greater Manchester, Lancashire
or
b 1855 died Jun Q 1898, Blackburn, Lancashire
There are no deaths in Plymouth, Devon, that I can see.
deb :)
-
Hi
From mail from Canada Sarah Susan Jane - Thomas Haslam had daughter listed as Ann Haslam but could be Grace Ann
The last marriage confirmed for Mary is to a John Bennett b. 1839
Children:
Jane Bennett b. 1883
John Bennett b. 1884
Edith Bennett b. 1886
Alfred Thomas Bennett b. 1891
Big Gap between Edith and Alfred
Cant wait for certs either expensive but I think it will be worth it in the end.
Also Thomas son George Septimus had 5 children Frank, Charles, George, May and Edith? not sure on this name. We know Frank was born in Ireland as was May but never found any births for the others, They were born there as George in Army and stationd at the Curragh Camp Southern Ireland. When he died in 1904 his widow Sarah Jane married again in 1906 to a guy called Edwin Bishop who was 20 years older than her also he had about 10 children from previous marriage and then they had 4 or 5 more, maybe up to 20 children in Total. What a family!!
Joy in Canada will forward what documents she has via email this week. including photo of all the family.
We had our holiday weekend last weekend spent monday on the beach.
Speak soon
Val
-
Hi Val
you forgot a daughter ;D
in 1901;
Mary Bennett was living with John (18), Alfred (10) and NELLIE aged 6
Nellie Bennett
Oct q 1894
Plymouth, devon
vol 5b pg 215
deb
-
THis thread never ceases to amaze me - so Mary's daughter Susan gets through husbands in the same way!
Perhaps her mum taught her how to cook ...
if my son ever announces his intention to marry a Bennet or a Newton or a Mumford, I will warn him!
-
Hiya Liz
I cannot get over how Mary Blackler/Newton marries Richard Saunders in the 1st quarter 1881, Richard the dies in 2nd quarter 1881, 3rd quarter Mary has a quiet period , then married Mr Bennett in the 4th quarter of 1881.....
Blimey ...something had to be going on ... :o ::)
deb
-
:)
Still looking for Thomas b 1849 sutton in Ashfield , Notts
I am stumped ... I have followed his brother, Edwin Newton (married twice ;D), hoping that Thomas may have been lodging with him .... No luck! he is also not with his Mum, Grace who is transcribed under Wills and not Wells.
I had found a Thomas born in right place with a wife and child , but his age was off by 10 years ...... geezzzzzz......
deb ...pulling her hair out :o
-
HI Deb
Well have spent the day (day off) trying to unravel the mystery of our family no luck !!!checked all Thomas, Edwin Newtons cencus even tried Tomas. Maybe we will learn more from certs hope so. Think I may send for death certs of Mumford, Saunders and Bennett just out of interest to see what they died of maybe all the same !!
Val
-
Hi Val
Hopefully the marriage certs of Thomas newton's other 2 children will show us whether he is alive or deceased at the time, if he is alive they may even show us that he may well have a new occupation ...maybe he went back to being a Frame work knitter :)
The death certs would be FAB ... and hopefully will tell us what was happening .... Liz and I can't wait for these ... maybe it will give us an understanding of what Mary was going through...OR even what the husbands were going through...... :)
Thomas doesn't seem to want to be found...... ::) we won't give up though....
What certs have you sent off for ...just the marriages ? If mary states on her marriage that she is a widow, when marrying Richard Saunders,oops I mean Charles Mumford, then we will have to assume she is telling the truth and find an appropriate death for Thomas Newton...which Liz may have found in one of her earlier postings.
Did marriage certs ALWAYS state if the father was deceased or not...or was just his name sufficient for the record?
looking forward to the 5th ..... please post info IMMEDIATELY and put us out of our misery LOL hee hee ;D
Deb in suspense
-
Unfortunately certs dont always tell the truth either, it is only what the person says to the registrar.
So the children's marriage certs may NOT say deceased, when he was, if they didnt mention it and the registrar ddint specifically ask.
OR, they may say deceased when he wasnt - if Thomas had done a runner and the children had been brought up to believe their father was deceased.
And Mary may well say 'widow', if she is actually committing bigamy. she isnt likely to say 'I'm already married' ! If she did, then the marriage would not take place.
but, I'm not meaning to be a misery-guts! Getting the certs is defintely the right way to go on this. Our starting point must be to take what they said the situation was, even if later we prove it is wrong.
It would be a recipe for disaster to 'assume' that they are lying, and to 'assume' that something else is the truth - likely to go off on all sorts of wild geese chases with absolutley no evidence to back it up, and then wonder why, further down the line something doesnt tie in, and then frantically trying to 'bend' the evidence or make further unconfirmed assumptions to make it all fit!
lecture over ...... sorry all
Think the tension is getting to me, just cant wait to see what all the certs say! remember to post all the details for us - ooohh did you say the first lot were due the 5th, thats tomoz!! But there is another thread somewhere saying that certs seem to be taking longer than they say, so let's all keep calm and think in terms of next week sometime, then if they do come earlier than that it will be a bonus.
-
Hi All
If Thomas did go off quite possible as according to my dad all newtons were rouges and womanisers!!! I orderd Mary/ Mumford Thomas and Mary in this first batch this week, my get Mumford Death cert this week and Saunders just to see what they died of!! somthing in the tea maybe!! second batch Sarah Susan / Haslam, Charles John/ Avery but sure he was married before and another Newton marriage before Chares N / Avery may not be connected though just a chance one. Try to order death certs today later on. My partner thinks I am mad to order, His family are proving to be just as difficult though coming to a full stop in London in 1859
Val
-
Hi All
Got a couple of certs
1) 3/2/1871 Thomas Newton 23 bacholor - Mary Blackler 22 - Spinster both living @ 10 Market Street Plymouth - Thomas Newton Seaman in the Merchant Services - Father Septimus Newton (dec) Frame work Knitter.
Mary Father George - Quarryman.
Married at Plymouth Registry Office - In the prescence of Caroline Elliott & Elizebeth Salmon
2) 9/3/1873 Charles Mumford 39 Widower - Mary Newton 25 Widow living @ George - 1 Friary Green Plymouth - Mary @ 10 Lower Street Plymouth
Charles a Labourer - Father James Mumford - Labourer. Mary father George
also Labourer this time.
Married in Plymouth Registry Office - in the prescence of James Blackler & Louisa Mumford.
Got a few more certs to arrive yet
Val
-
Hi Val
I have been waiting for you LOL ...2 days after the 5th ... not bad! I just reread a little of this thread again , just to update myself ... ;D
Re: Mary Blackler :
We have the correct family (see earlier posts) where she is living with her dad, George , a quarry man and she has a brother James , b c 1856, who was most probably the witness to her 2nd marriage to Charles Mumford.
Now it seems that we have got to find Thomas NEWTON"s death between 1872 (when the last Newton child was conceived) and 1st Quarter 1873, when Mary married CHARLES Mumford.
ummm a thought has just come to me .... Mary named her last child from Thomas Newton ...CHARLES ... I wonder if .... umm...no I won't go there.... ::) 8)
I will look for a death for Thomas Newton again.....
can't wait for the death certs to arrive
deb :)
-
Hi Deb
Someone has sent me a photo of Mary + Family not all as would make photo to large mainly Bennetts and Mumfords
Did you notice one Blackler Child was born Alderney witch is the Channel Islands Like Jersey and Gurnsey
-
Ooooo How great to have a pic of the famous Mary LOL
The child that was born in the channel Isles was James, Mary's brother ...the witness at the MUMFORD marriage...
I have looked for a death of Thomas Newton ...I think that the one Liz posted earlier in this thread in Notts , may be the one.
Another thought ~ If he died at sea , would his death be registered as of Date of death , or would it have been registered when he was returned home ...? (maybe a later date)
What did Mary look like ? maybe you could post the pic of her ;D Just so we know who we are so enthralled with :D
deb
-
just had a look to see how i do it but cant see how where it says attatch photo nothing happining
val
-
Hi val
i am not too good at attaching pics myself ... but I think you have to save your picture to "my Pictures: then under the box where we type our replies there is ..."attach a photo or image' click on that , then browse and find you photo, click save,,,, jeez LOL ...Hold on I will try to figure it out ::) ::)
deb
-
Now it seems that we have got to find Thomas NEWTON"s death between 1872 (when the last Newton child was conceived) and 1st Quarter 1873, when Mary married CHARLES Mumford.
ummm a thought has just come to me .... Mary named her last child from Thomas Newton ...CHARLES ... I wonder if .... umm...no I won't go there.... ::) 8)
it was very much as it is today if you are married then it is assumed that your husband is the father of the child although that is not always the case.
i have a relation in my tree where the child is registered under the married name but the husband died 2 years previous,
perhaps the childs birth certificate would confirm this but then again maybe not Thomas name could easily have been put down whether he was deceased or not.
-
Hi all
I have just scrolled through this whole thread again ... and this is also pure conjecture..... I obviously love mysteries LOL
As far as the Newton children are concerned ..
George Septimus ....
George ..= mary's dad's name
Septimus= Thomas' dad's name
Sarah...
Mary's mother's name
Charles ....
No immediate family name ....
;D ;D ;D
deb
-
Hi All
2 More certs:-
1) 25th Feb 1887 Thomas Haslam 30 years Batchelor Merchant Seaman 27 Lower Street father John Haslam Labourer
Sarah Newton 18 years Spinster 27 Lower Street Father Thomas Newton Dec. Seaman Royal Navy.
Married Registrey Office Plymouth
In the Prescence of Sarah Blackler - looks like Thomas Blackler!
2) 18th Oct 1903 Charles John newton 31 years batchlor Engine Driver . 25 Lavia Street Father Thomas John Newton dec Sailor
Florence maude Avery 22 years Spinster 25 Lavia Street Father Richard John Avery Coal Porter
Married in the Parish Church of Saint Jude Plymouth
In the Prescence of William Thomas Hawker - Bessie Eliza Hamlyn
3rd Cert sent for not ours Charles Newton Feb 18th 1892
Now waiting for Death certs
Val
-
Hi Val
Hope you are having a good weekend ... :)
Well at least from those certs we know that Thomas Died ::) When though ...arrrgggghhhhhhh will we ever find him ??!!!!!!
I did notice that his son named him Thomas JOHN Newton ... I don't recall any of the census stating that ....maybe we should also look for a death under John T Newton .... clutching at straws ...did you order the death cert that liz gave us a while back?
So - we have established that Thomas had a link with Nottinghamshire.
We have established that (if he is the father of Charles John Newton born O/N/D 1872) he must have been alive early 1872.
If the Mumford marriage we have found is correct, Mary remarries Jan/Feb/Mar 1873.
So - the 'window' in which could have died is fairly narrow.
Soooooo
this death from FreeBMD COULD be a possible:
JAn/Feb/MAr 1872 Radford Nottingham ref 7b 147
-maybe on leave from the navy, visiting rellies and ... whoops... got run over by bus / had heart attack / succomed to beri-beri caught whilst abroad in the Navy / whatever.
Well - can anyone else do better? !!!!! :)
deb
Ps LIZZZZZZ where are you ? :-\
-
Hi!
Evening all!
I'm here.
Just summising on the fact that if we have our doubts as to whether Charles was actually Thomas's son, then that would widen the 'window' for Thomas's death.
But then we may be getting too fanciful! Without knowing Thomas's death we cannot prove that Charles isnt his (have we got Charles birth cert on order?) and really, having used HIS dad's name and HER dad's name for first two sons, then they could have branched out to more distant rellies names for the next one, and we really dont know if Mary had a great uncle Charles she was particularly close to, or not!!!
I'm waiting for those death certs to see what all those husbamds died of
-
Hi Liz ... :D
I will search for a CHARLES hee hee.... I have been on National Archives ...lots of Blackler stuff there ...also I wonder if Val is interested to go even further back .....Mary's dad was George Blackler who married Sarah Cowley ,,,that may be interesting to see ..... also the Newton side !
deb ;D
-
Hi All
Below is Newton Family
1. SEPTIMUS1 NEWTON was born 1809 in Heanor, Derby. He married GRACE BEMBRIDGE 04 Jul 1836 in Duffield. She was born 1808 in Horsley, Derby. I did have some help with this from Rele of Edwin Newton Still no mention of Thomas only Bith on first part
Children of SEPTIMUS NEWTON and GRACE BEMBRIDGE are:
i. WILLIAM2 NEWTON, b. 1839, Holbrook.
2. ii. EDWIN NEWTON, b. 1843, Holbrook Delphine.
iii. THOMAS NEWTON, b. 1848, Holbrook.
Generation No. 2
2. EDWIN2 NEWTON (SEPTIMUS1) was born 1843 in Holbrook Delphine. He married (1) MARY UNKNOWN. She was born 1845 in Nottinghamshire, and died 1885. He married (2) ANN BEST 1886 in Nottingham. She was born Abt. 1843 in Nottinghamshire.
Notes for EDWIN NEWTON:
1871 - 89 Wood Street, Hinckley - Warehouseman
1881 -
1891 - 8 clarendon Park Rd, Knighton - Hosiery
More About EDWIN NEWTON:
Christening: Holbrook
Notes for MARY UNKNOWN:
1871 - Hinckley
1881 -58 Oakham Street, Leicester St Mary
1891 - Edwin remarried to Ann
Notes for ANN BEST:
1891 - listed as Edwin's Wife. Previous to this, has been Mary
Children of EDWIN NEWTON and MARY UNKNOWN are:
i. MATILDA3 NEWTON, b. Abt. 1870, Leicstershire.
ii. ALFRED NEWTON, b. 1872, Hinckley.
Notes for ALFRED NEWTON:
1891 - 8 Clarendon Park Road, Knighton
Paralysis from birth? - hard to read comment on census
iii. ELIZA NEWTON, b. 1874, Hinckley.
Notes for ELIZA NEWTON:
1891 8 Clarendon Park Rd, Knighton, Hosiery
3. iv. EDWIN NEWTON, b. 1875, Hinckley; d. 30 Jan 1938, 5 Wall Lane, Hinckley.
v. WILLIAM H NEWTON, b. Abt. 1878, Leicestershire.
vi. EMILY M NEWTON, b. Abt. 1884, Carlton, Nottinghamshire.
Generation No. 3
3. EDWIN3 NEWTON (EDWIN2, SEPTIMUS1) was born 1875 in Hinckley, and died 30 Jan 1938 in 5 Wall Lane, Hinckley. He married CLARA MUTTON Jun 1896 in Leicester, daughter of CHARLES MUTTON and HARRIETT. She was born 1875 in Welford, Northants.
Notes for EDWIN NEWTON:
1881 - 58 Oakham Street Leicester St Mary
1891 - Knighton - Hosiery Factory
1901 - Sutton in Ashfield Primitive Chapel? foreman hosiery factory worker
More About EDWIN NEWTON:
Cause of Death: Coronary thrombosis of the blood vessels of the heart
Medical Information: Informant to death - AH Newton - son - 25 Westfield Road, Hinckley
Occupation: 1911, Mechanic at Hosiery Factory
Residence: 1911, 9 Salem Road, Burbage
Notes for CLARA MUTTON:
1881 - 164 Back Street, Welford
1891 Lodger with Joseph and Jane Woodford - 177 Backd Couch?
1901 - Sutton in Ashfield
More About CLARA MUTTON:
Christening: 03 Feb 1875, Welford
Children of EDWIN NEWTON and CLARA MUTTON are:
i. CONSTANCE MAY4 NEWTON, b. 1897, Leicester.
Notes for CONSTANCE MAY NEWTON:
1901 sutton in Ashfield
ii. ARCHIBALD H NEWTON, b. 1900, Market Harborough.
Notes for ARCHIBALD H NEWTON:
1901 - sutton in ashfield
iii. STANLEY RAYMOND NEWTON, b. 1901, Sutton in Ashfield.
iv. CYRIL HAYDON NEWTON, b. 1907, Hinckley.
Notes for CYRIL HAYDON NEWTON:
Twin to Gertrude
v. GERTRUDE ESMERELDA NEWTON, b. 1907, Hinckley.
4. vi. GEORGE DOUGLAS NEWTON, b. 03 Jun 1911, 9 Salem Road, Burbage; d. 30 Aug 1978, Leicester Royal Infirmary.
Generation No. 4
4. GEORGE DOUGLAS4 NEWTON (EDWIN3, EDWIN2, SEPTIMUS1) was born 03 Jun 1911 in 9 Salem Road, Burbage, and died 30 Aug 1978 in Leicester Royal Infirmary. He married ELSIE MAY BREWARD 24 Jul 1937 in Barwell Parish Church1, daughter of GEORGE BREWARD and SARAH GREWCOCK. She was born Abt. 1918 in Unknown.
More About GEORGE DOUGLAS NEWTON:
Cause of Death (Facts Pg): 1978, Respiratory Failure and Chronic Bronchitis
Occupation: 1937, Hosiery Operative
Residence: 1978, 31 Bradgate Road, Barwell
Will look into William
-
Me Again
Just found a marriage for Agnes Mumford - Richard Lewes Childs
Father wait for it - Charles Mumford Mother Mary Blackler - Ontario Canada Mariages could not see a date cant open no acsess to this!!
Val
-
Hi Val
Thanks for all that . your rellie has Thomas Newton being born in Holbrook, but Thomas in the census , states that he was born in Notts, Sutton In Ashfield. Here is the 1861 and in 1871,when he was married to Mary , he also states Notts, S in A.
hi
Here's Thomas in 1861
Thoresby st, Snelling, Notts
John WELLS head mar 60 overlooker of cotton doubins? b middlesex, Healing
Grace wife mar 54 b Derby, Coxbench?
Edwin NEWTON son 19 frame work knitter b Holbrook, Derby
THOMAS NEWTON son 14 F w knitter b Notts, Sutton in Ashfield
John Winfield Boarder
possible death:
Septimus NEWTON
mar 1858, Nottingham, Notts
vol 7b pg 144
deb
... Val I have the photos and will try to post :)
deb
-
Hi Deb
Thanks for that
ordered Saunders death cert but not sure about the mumford one cant seem to find right one!
-
Hi Deb
Thanks for that
ordered Saunders death cert but not sure about the mumford one cant seem to find right one!
-
Hi Val
Okay...
Mary married Charles MUMFORD mar q 1873 and then Richard Saunders in june q 1881.
Children by Charles MUMFORD :
Agnes Maud b 1875
Charles James b 1877
So we need to find a MUMFORD death between 1877-1881.
the only one I can see is
Charles Friend MUMFORD b abt 1830 died mar q 1879, Plymton St Mary
vol 5b pg 175
On his marriage cert Charles Mumford states that he is 39 in 1873 ...b c 1833/32..... and no mention of a middle name !
umm will look further.
Val also ...cannot post picture as we are on the "Lookup Request Boards' ... I asked on the technical boards and that was the answer ...sorry ... great pics though ;D
deb
-
Hi again
I think Charles Mumford may have been fibbing a little with his age (39) when he married Mary Blackler Newton.
1871:
Plymstock
Charles MUMFORD head wid 40 quarryman
William J son unm quarry boy
Louisa dau 9 Scholar
Elizabeth A dau 6 scholar
Sophia L dau 5
Elizabeth SNELL Mother-in-law wid 64
AHA ..... I think that the death I posted re Charles Friend Mumford may be the correct one ....
1861:
Plymstock
Sally Ann Warley head mar 53 seaman's wife
CHARLES F MUMFORD head mar 29 labourer b Plymstock
Emma wife mar 28 b Stoke damerel
William son 3 scholar b Plymstock
marriage:
Charles FRIEND Mumford
Emma SNELL
sept q 1857, Plymouth
vol 5b pg 399
deb ;D
-
Hi again
Here is Charles in 1841
Plymstock
James MUMFORD 35 quarryman
Agness Mumford 40
CHARLES " 10
James " 8
John " 6
Thomas " 4
I CANNOT find a marriage for Charles' parents, neither can I find baptisms for the children ....whats with that?
deb
-
Hi Deb
I did see that one for Charles Friend! Mumford will send for that and see.
Did some searching on divorce laws came into force 1857 on the grounds of non consummation, desertion, adultery and selling a wife!! not sure how you sell a wife.
The ironic part of this is my Partner has the name of HUNFORD one letter diff.and they came from the west country. I will look into that one as I have come to a full stop on that one as well before 1839 in London.
Friend is a strange name don't you think?
Maybe they did divorce and she put widow could not have been non consummation but could be adultery or desertion of Thomas, its odd we cant find a death at that time. we will see by that death for him.
Speak soon
Val
-
Just for completeness ...
Those who have contributed on this lengthy thread may wish to know that the same topic is now also being discussed on the following thread:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,255065.0
... your rellie has Thomas Newton being born in Holbrook, but Thomas in the census , states that he was born in Notts, Sutton In Ashfield.
1851 has Thomas 3, 1861 has Thomas 14, 1871 has Thomas 22.
Birthplace always Sutton in Ashfield.
The births of the three children of Septimus NEWTON & Grace BEMBRIDGE (1841 - William 2; 1851 - William not with his parents, Edwin 8, Thomas 3) are presumably the following:
*William NEWTON b Belper Derbyshire (Belper includes Holbrook) - either Jun qtr 1839, Vol 19, Page 410 or Dec qtr 1839, Vol 19, Page 352; possibly the latter as a William NEWTON d Belper, Sep qtr 1839, Vol 19, Page 290
*Edwin NEWTON b Jun qtr 1842, Belper Derbyshire, Vol 19, Page 418
*Thomas NEWTON b Sep qtr 1847, Mansfield Nottinghamshire, Vol 15 Page 499 (Mansfield includes Sutton in Ashfield)
Valley has mentioned on the other thread that she has ordered the death cert of Thomas NEWTON, 25, d Mar qtr 1872 in Radford Notts. Another possibility might be Thomas NEWTON, 25, d Jun qtr 1872 in Strand, London. Also (though this would mean he was not the father of Charles) Thomas NEWTON, 24, d Sep qtr 1871 in Hemel Hempstead, Hertfordshire.
JAP
-
Hi
Have my doubs if he was father to George Septimus as he was born 1868/9 and he married Mary in 1871 he was 22 on when he married 3rd feb 1871 she remarried 9/3/1873 to Charles Mumford I have marriage certs for these.
Val
-
Valley,
There seems to be every reason to accept that George Septimus NEWTON was the son of Thomas NEWTON & Mary BLACKLER, and little or no reason to doubt it!
- Earlier, on this thread, you have told us that you have the birth certificate of George Septimus NEWTON which lists his parents as Thomas NEWTON, Seaman Royal Navy, and Mary BLACKLER.
- George Septimus NEWTON was born Jun qtr 1868 (10 May 1868). At that stage, his father Thomas would have been going on for 21 years old (Thomas was born Sep qtr 1847).
- You have told us that Thomas's age is given as 23 (which is correct) at his marriage to Mary BLACKLER in Feb 1871; Thomas was said to be a Seaman in the Merchant Service (probably the most reliable occupation as Thomas himself would have provided it). Thomas and Mary were living at the same address when they married. Thomas's age was slightly understated (as 22) in the Apr 1871 census.
- Septimus was the given name of the father of Thomas NEWTON.
- On the 1871 census, George is listed as the son of Thomas NEWTON
- On the 1881 census, George is listed as the son of Mary's first husband.
- You have told us that, on his 1897 marriage cert, George lists his father as Thomas NEWTON, sailor.
The simplest explanation is often/usually to be preferred unless there are very good reasons to go for something more complicated.
And the simplest explanation in this case is that Thomas was the father of George Septimus NEWTON and also of Sarah Susan Jane NEWTON (both pre-nuptial) and also - though not necessarily - of Charles NEWTON.
Similarly, the simplest explanation is that Thomas NEWTON died sometime between the 1871 census and the marriage of Mary (BLACKLER) NEWTON in Feb 1873 to Charles MUMFORD. Rather than thinking that Thomas was still alive and Mary was a bigamist!
Of course, things might turn out to be different - but best to exhaust the simple explanations first.
JAP
PS: It would be interesting to know whether the Dec qtr 1872 birth cert of Charles NEWTON lists Mary's husband Thomas as deceased ...
-
Hi All
Just had mail from Canada Charles John Birthday Sept 30th 1872 so Thomas if that is hid death in Nottingham would just be the Father have asked contact if she has certificate wait and see. She is just as foxed as we are. Still awaiting the cert for Thomas in Nottingham and Charles Mumford
Val
-
Val
Have the death certs arrived yet ...we are waiting with bated breath.....
deb ;D
-
Hi Deb
Been a delay with them will be arriving mid week or so have ordered Thomas Newton Radford Notts, this one I am not sure about Charles F Mumford again not sure if this is right and Richard Saunders hope we are going along the right track, have been trying to find out more but its like banaging a head against a brick wall. I am not going to let this one rest!! till I find out the details of this family.
I will do a mail as soon as I receive them.
Val
-
My breath is bated too!!!
-
Hi Val and liz
Believe it or not, I think of Mary quite often .... ;D ....
I think it would be great to follow her line back some more ... especially on the maternal side... (maybe there would be more marriages LOL) ... her dad was Blackler and mum was a Cowley, if I remember correctly ....
how about it , while we wait for the certs ::)
deb
-
Hi Deb
Sounds interesting cant make out why one of her brothers was born in Alderney mat be interesting to get that bith cert if I can find it, eyes are sore at moment just been for a fitting for contact lenses have been putting them in and out for 2 hrs.
will have a look at that one in Alderney
Val
-
Hi Val
Just to recap...
1851
Village of Broad Hempston
George Blackler head mar 35 ag lab b Lytton, cornwall
Sarah wife mar 31 b Broad Hempston
George son 8 b BH
Mary dau 4 b BH
Susanna dau 8 months b BH
lodging with them are the Cowley family
George and Sarah (parents) seem to be messing around with their ages ! :-\ also george is now born in Cornwall and not Devon ummmm
I think this may be their marriage:
George BLACKLER to Sarah COWLEY
Dec 1843 Newton Abbot, Devon
vol 10 pg 275
There are a few BLACKLER Families in this village .... Some of them are farmers with lots of acreage , one is even a landed proprietor/surveyor & engineer.
deb
I will recheck 1851 and see who the Cowley family are who are living with them.
deb
-
Hi
1851:
Living with George and Sarah BLACKLER
Sarah COWLEY lodger wid 75 Parish Pay b Staverton
Ann COWLEY Lodger mar 51 b Leeds, Yorkshire
Sarah E " 13 unm lodger's dau b Newton Devon
John " unm 8 Lodger's son b Broad Hempston
deb
-
Hi again
!841:
Village of Broad Hempston
William COWLEY 71 ag lab
Sarah COWLEY 65
Sarah COWLEY 19
all born in county
This seems like their marriage:
William COWLEY to Sarah BURNER
30 Dec 1800
Staverton , Devon
so they would be Mary Blackler's Grandparents
deb :)
-
Hi
just cant find birth for James as Chanel Islands may have to find a site for that seems odd he was born there cant beleive wife went to there had son and came back to devon in 1855 according to british 1861 cencus
-
Hi Val
In 1871
Plymstock
George ( 53) and Sarah( 48) are living with their children...
Susan (20 unm), James (16, unm , scholar b Jersey), sarah J (10, b Plymouth) and John S (4, b Plymstock).
Do you think she may have registered James in Plymouth maybe?
deb
-
Hi
Have put a post on Channel Island look ups see what turns up from that will let you know on that one she must have been there, but why I do not have full look ups for Jersey Gurnsey Alderney and Sark
May have to call it a day for now eyes are sore
Val
-
Hi Deb
Reply from channel Island Look up
No births reg 1854/55/56 in UK and wont find anything on Channel Islands because did not start till after them dates, still seems odd why they were there cant imagin mum went to Channel Islands have son then come back maybe he was not there son quite a lot of Blacklers there on there cencus will check them for a James Blackler around that time.
Val
-
Hi Val and Liz and everyone reading
Where are the certs ? ...I came across a marriage today for a James Blackler ... , brought me back to this thread ..... VAL ...I am so impatient ;D
deb
-
Hi Everyone
Still waiting can't wait much longer getting umm impatient now others came quite quick hope today or tomorrow so I have been told.
Have not done much o Blacklers except James (channel Islands) Who did he marry and when interesting.
I have looked at convicts to Australia and the free pardons but they were all before Thomas left the picture.
Maybe it is him that I have sent for odd odd odd.
Will be in touch as soon as they pop through the door.
Val
-
Hi Deb and everyone
Not got certs yet hope today otherwise it will be Monday getting impatient now want to know as soon as arrive will post
Val
-
Hi they are here but still unsure
1) Thomas newton- Radford Nottingham - Coal Miner? 31/01/1872 25 years cause of death SMALLPOX lived 11 days, present at death Emma Not Newton unreadable
2) Charles F Mumford - Plympton st Mary - 6/3/79 Quarryman looks like chest trouble had for 3 months present at death John Mumford Brother
3) Richard Saunders - Plymouth 14/6/1881 in South Devon Hospital Age 35 years - Labourer - Died from effects of a fall from Ladder or window sill interval between fall and death 13 hrs coroner death cert issued. Inquest held June 14 1881. No person listed next of kin present at death.
Well there you have it not sure about any of them Cant rem if Charles had brother John on cencus earlier in thred will check that one.
Val
-
Hi again
Did seem to have Brother John
Here is Charles in 1841
Plymstock
James MUMFORD 35 quarryman
Agness Mumford 40
CHARLES " 10
James " 8
John " 6
Thomas " 4
-
So our Mary is conspicously absent when he comes to registering her husbands deaths.
A variety of causes of death, seems like she was just unlucky.
Does it give home address for them? That might help determine if we have the right guys.
-
Hi
No address for Richard Saunders - South Devon Hospital Plymouth
Charles Mumford only got Oreston Plymstock
Thomas cannot make out the address Sub District Snenton Nottingham also looks like Emma Parr or Farr present at death will look into that one.
Val
-
Hi
At last ...... ;D
Well I am a little dissappointed ..I expected "death after drinking poisoned tea " sorry ..no offence meant :-\
What worries me about Thomas Newtons death ..is that he is a 'coal miner' ..and not a mariner/sailor etc ..
Also if he was sick for 11 days prior to death ... that would make him sick starting around the 21 jan 1872 ...Charles Newton, his son was born Dec q 1872...say Thomas was in Notts beginning of jan ...that would be pushing it that he was the father of Charles ......
ummmm
I wonder who Emma Farr/Parr was ....will look further
deb ;D
-
I agree, that Thomas death does not look very hopeful.
but I am amazed that Mary did not register any of her husbands' deaths.
-
Hi Liz
i totally agree with you , where was Mary ? Was she pregnant during those times or giving birth .... i have to keep on scrolling back LOL I will recheck the dates of kids' births and see if they match up to husbands death dates .
also ...I think it's back to the drawing board re: Thomas Newton's death ...which also takes us back to the point of this thread ::)
Is there any way we can get hold of the inquest into Richard Saunders death ...I did google it ...nothing .... would there have been an inquest if the fall was NOT suspicious ...it says ,,, from a ladder or Window sill ...maybe he was pushed .....? :o
deb
-
Hi
Just to recap.....
I have been working on children's births. I know you have found some already, but here is my list of births of children who I reckon could be Mary's (working on the assumption that the Saunders children arrived with Mr S and left when he died)
All Plymouth
George Septimus Newton AMJ 1868 5b 261
Sarah Susan J Newton JAS 1870 5b 246
Charles John Newton OND 1872 5b 243
CANT FIND CHARLES OR AGNES MUMFORD
Jane Bennett JFM 1883 5b 260
John Bennett JAS 1884 5b 260
Edith Harriett Bennett JFM 1886 5b 242
Alfred Cyril Bennett AMJ 1891 5b 285
Nellie Bennett OND 1894 5b 215
Agnes Maud MUMFORD jun q 1874 Plymton
James Charles C MUMFORD mar q 1878 Plymton
Marriages:
Thomas NEWTON `~ Mar q 1871
Charles MUMFORD ~ Mar Q 1873
Richard SAUNDERS ~ Jun q 1881
BENNET ~ Dec Q 1881
Deaths:
Thomas NEWTON ?? ??
Charles MUMFORD 6 mar 1879
Richard SAUNDERS 14 June 1881
deb
-
Well, it all ties in very neatly.
Poor Mr Saunders didnt last long did he?
-
Geezzzz Liz
we must have ESP or something was just thinking the same thing ...and thinking of scrolling back to see if Val had posted marriage details of the date Mary married Richard Saunders ...
;D
deb
PS : remember we had ESP regarding mary BENNETT marrying the old lodger that was with her in 1901 ;D ;D
-
I have been through the complete Death Index for 1872 and 1873 for Thomas NEWTON ... he is not there ! ::) ::)
I also scrolled through partial death index yet again .... using just Thomas ... No surname , just in case it was mistranscribed ...NOTHING ....
deb
-
Hi All
Did have a thought last night (MINER) - (Mariner ) may sound the same if spoken quickley just a thought!! dont know who Emma is maybe a nurse looking after Thomas.
Maybe he died at sea although I cant find anything on that one either, deaths abroad in services maybe but my pc will not alow me to check the roll of that tells me there are some but wont alow me to open it dont know why just throws me out - Find my Past !! think it was called 1901 on line.
Need to get marriage cert for Mary Saunders will do that later on today. Also Bennett then its back to Thomas Where did he go?
-
Hi Val !
Just a quickie to say that I am following this thread with great interest, as you can imagine! Hope you are well
Sandra
-
Hi all
I received this mail yesterday on Ancestry because ages ago I put this on there board with no replys.
Maybe Just Maybe this guy will have the answer
Hi Val,
We have a Mary Blackler married to Thomas Newton 3 Feb 1871, Plymouth. Mary was born 10 Feb 1848 in Broadhempston to George Blackler and Sarah Cowley.
Contact me directly on ...
for more details.
-
i got lost at the beginning of this thread but have been reading it regularly and that does sound promising. fingers crossed
-
Looks like this chap on ancestry has the same marriage - the one we found After first two children were born. But I wonder if he has found anything different in the years after her marriage!
by the way - Findmypast used to be 1837online. It is a pay to view site - so if you aint paid you wont view!
but it does, I believe have the Marine deaths on it. So if anyone reading this has access, we'd love you to look for a Thomas Newton dying between the 1871 census (when he was at home with his wife and two children, though he had only married her in Feb that year..) and 1873 when Mary, calling herself a widow, married hubby number 2, Charles Mumford.
Or if anyone is going to the FRC and can look in the giant Marine Deaths book there.
Thanks.
-
Information removed due to copyright violation. See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/copyright.php for more details
RootsChat must deal with any breach of copyright by its members.
For some time the team of Copyright Editors has been removing breaches of copyright and sending detailed personal messages to the member that had posted the information. Due to the volume of posts and members this is now impractical. Messages in breach will simply be deleted and this notice posted. We apologise for any inconvenience caused but are sure you will appreciate the importance of this issue.
-
Hi Girls
ooo VAL ; That sounds like a definite 'hit' ...I am sure that he is related ...hopefully he will have more info and maybe will be able to clear up the matter on what happened to dear Thomas Newton ...keep us posted !
deb :)
-
Hi Girls
Have been away for weekend so not done much.
Have contacted the above and are waiting for the reaserch he has done he is in New Zealand will keep you all posted.
Val
-
Hi Deb and everyone connected eith this thread
Just recaping about thomas newton death Radford Nottingham
I am now certain that this death of smallpox was our Thomas if you look at 1861 Cencus we have Thomas living in District of Radford with brother Edwin and Mother Grace Wells and John Wells Stepfather and a Winfield John, Have no idea why he was miner at this time but only married just about a year to Mary maybe he went backto find work. Perhaps did not want to contiue with sea.
Maybe I could have your thoughts on this!!
Happy new Year
Val
-
I have just started following this thread and find we are researching the same people.
My husbands Grandmother is Nellie Bennett (married name Sherrell of Brantford Ontario Canada) daughter of Mary Bennett (Blackler)
I know birth certificates have been requested and received. Does anyone have a copy of the Birth Certificate for Nellie Bennett. On paper she is showing as the daugher of Mary, BUT on her marriage certificate she shows her mother as Sarah Susan Jane Newton. Sorry to put a little more spice in the pot, but we are not done yet :)
-
Hi
My records show Sarah Susan Jane Newton she was 19 married Thomas Haslam 30 in 1887 and had 1 daughter Grace Ann Haslam. In 1905 she was a widow and married again to Herbert Maidment Sarah died in 1913 age 42. Daughter Grace Ann married in 1910 to Francis Albert Fudge. I cant see any evidence that she was the mother of Nellie Bennett. I will still keep looking though.
Val