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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Derbyshire => Topic started by: swa on Wednesday 15 August 07 10:14 BST (UK)
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I am looking for information regarding the deaths of a mother and son abt. 1850 in Derbyshire.
Louisa ANSELL (m.s. SAMPFORD) died abt. 1850 along with her son William ANSELL, possibly in child birth or soon after???
Louisa was married to Samuel ANSELL in 1845 in Ware, Hertfordshire, England.
They had two sons:
John Francis ANSELL born 1847 in Derby, Derbyshire; and
William ANSELL born 1849 in Derby, Derbyshire.
It seems clear from census records that William did not live to be included in the 1851 census and Louisa had also died by this time, leaving Samuel ANSELL a widower...
Any help would be great!
Best Wishes,
Sarah WALKER (m.s. HALL)
Australia
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Dear Sarah
The only death I can find for Louisa that seems to fit is the one in 1850 at Wandsworth & Co. I notice Samuel is mis transcribed Andell on the 1851 - bit he is living by himself as far as I can see in Derby. Did you find John Frederick Ansell b. about 1847 on the 1851 census - was he living elsewhere ?
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Quote: "The only death I can find for Louisa that seems to fit is the one in 1850 at Wandsworth & Co."
Sorry, I don't quite know what you mean by this...
Could you please tell me about Wandsworth & Co.?
Where did you find this death information and how was it listed? Was Louisa listed as 'Louisa ANSELL'?
Thanks so much for your help.
Best Wishes,
Sarah WALKER (m.s. HALL)
Australia
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Quote: "Did you find John Frederick (Francis) ANSELL born 1847 on the 1851 census - was he living elsewhere?"
1851 Census:
Address: Musley Lane, Ware, Hertfordshire, England.
John ANSELL; Nephew; Age: 4; Born: Derby, Derbyshire, England.
In 1851 John Francis ANSELL was residing with:
(Grandmother) Mary SAMPFORD; Widow; Age: 68; Born: Widdington, Essex, England.
(Aunt) Hannah GREEN; Age: 23; Wife; Born: Bishop's Stortford, Hertfordshire, England.
(Uncle) Thomas GREEN; Age: 23; Head; Occupation: Malt Maker; Born: Shoreditch, Middlesex, England.
(Hannah SAMPFORD married Thomas GREEN in 1849 in Ware, Hertfordshire, England.)
The mystery still remains as to what happened to Samuel and Louisa's son, William ANSELL... He was born in 1849 in Derby, but cannot be found on the 1851 census.
Best Wishes,
Sarah WALKER (m.s. HALL)
Australia
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Hi
The GRO index for BMDs is online at various paying sites so you can search the entire thing to look for deaths. Wandsworth is a district of London - a bit far from Derbyshire!
There is also FreeBMD - a rapidly growing index which is free to search - it is also free on ancestry.co.uk However it is not yet full coverage.
You might find it worth your while to take a free trial on ancestry when they next offer one. It is often shown at the top of rootschat. You could then see if it would be worth joining. An annual sub is less than the cost of a weekly Sunday paper - well worth it in my view. I use it a lot for census and BMD searching. (the .co.uk one is better than .com) The transcriptions can be a bit wayward but with practice you realise that you can search on first name and date and place of birth etc and that often brings up obvious mistranscriptions.
Andrea
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I see that Samuel married again in 1854 to Agnes Wilkinson and has a later son called William so that does make it likely that the first one died. John is with them in 1861 age 14.
Andrea
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If you search freebmd for 'William -' who died in Derby between 1849 and 1851 you will see that Mar 1850 has no-one starting with the letters A-F. All other quarters have several entries so it suggests that there are some missing. Louisa and William may well be in that quarter.
Richard
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They do not seem to be there in the full index though - I have searched 1849 -51 - not under Ansell anyway. I wonder how else it could be written? Found the birth for William in Jan-Mar 1849. I wonder if it might be worth contacting the local register office in Derby and asking them to look for the deaths. There is always a remote possibility that they were not sent to the main GRO office.
Andrea
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Dear Sarah
I believe that the death I found for a Louisa in 1850 may well be the one you are looking for. I found a site where you can measure the distance between two places - Wandsworth is only about 25 miles from Ware. As the child John Ansell was with relatives in Ware in 1851 it is possible that his mother had also returned to her home area perhaps because of ill health of confinement and died there.
This is the site for measuring distances :-
http://www.scit.wlv.ac.uk/~jphb/php/towntest.html
I believe that the FreeBMD is largely complete now for this time period.
However I do subscribe to ancestry and genealogy.com and I did check for deaths page by page quarter by quarter for Ansell from 1847 to 1851 and found only one Louisa. Unfortunately age at death is not given in this time period so there are no age clues to go on. I found several deaths for William Ansells but without ages at death its impossible to tell which may be which but I will check again.
Whilst googling I also found the following site for herts genealogy which may be of interest -
http://hertfordshire-genealogy.co.uk/home.htm
mog
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Dear Sarah
I have re-checked deaths page by page for 1849 to 1851 looking for a William Ansell who either died in Derby or Ware or even Wandsworth but none are listed dying in those districts. Several deaths for Williams are recorded but the only death registered in Herts is one at Hitchin 1849 Q3 Vol 6 page 383.
Hitchin is about 12 miles or 23 km from Ware
Why his death would have been registered in Hitchin and why his mothers may have registered in Wandsworth - is odd but there are no deaths listed that seem any closer to their Derby or Herts connections.
I have checked out the Herts FHS site and they have created a CD of MIs Monumental (gravestone) transcriptions. If you post your question on the Herts board maybe a kind rootschatter will be able to look up the MIs for you ?
Mog
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Dear rjknott
If you look at FreeBMD statistics you will see that deaths Q1 1850 is finished as is Q2 & Q3 some of Q4 still incomplete. I have however checked the actual source pages and there is no Louisa Ansell listed in 1850Q1 or a William so they are definitely not there.
To check out freebmd progress go to freebmd home page and look at statistics then coverage
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/progressD.shtml#1850
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Dear Sarah
Sorry to forgot to answer your earlier question
Louisa's death is listed as:-
1850 Q2 (April - Jun) Louisa Ansell Wandsworth &C Vol 4 Page 364
Yes she is definitely listed as Louisa
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If you look at FreeBMD statistics you will see that deaths Q1 1850 is finished as is Q2 & Q3 some of Q4 still incomplete. I have however checked the actual source pages and there is no Louisa Ansell listed in 1850Q1 or a William so they are definitely not there.
To check out freebmd progress go to freebmd home page and look at statistics then coverage
http://www.freebmd.rootsweb.com/progressD.shtml#1850
I am aware of that. I'm not suggesting that the index hasn't been transcribed. I am suggesting that the records may not have been transferred from Derby to the central index.
It may be worth contacting the Derby office.
Richard
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Dear RJk
Can this happen?
And is it common ?
I have not come across it before
mog
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I have certainly come across cases where registrations in the local office have not made it onto the central register - I seem to remember a posting about some Yorkshire (Huddersfield?) entries a few months ago - but I don't know how common it is.
Looking again at freebmd, it probably hasn't happened in this case, as there are some Derby entries for A-F where the first name isn't William. It is just a statistical freak with the Williams.
Richard
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my two pennies worth
Do you think it is possible that William died in Derbyshire and Louisa obviously bereaved returned to London possibly to visit family taking the other son and died there?
Surname Variants:~
Ansel Ancel/l Ansal/l
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Dear Toni - I could not find a William dying in Derbyshire area in that time period.
I also think it is possible Louisa returned to her family in Herts and died there.
However rjk's idea that some deaths for Derby may not have been passed over has made me think again and realise how careful we all have to be before coming to conclusions. I suppose anything is possible with human error. However as RJK says it now may be just a statistical glich as I have found Allsworth's passed over for Derby and Astle's and Ashby's for that qtr - so maybe there were no Derby deaths in that qtr for Ansell ?
Well I hope that the ideas we have all come up with has helped Sarah
mog
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Deaths in Ware should come under Hertford Registraton district. I don't recall seeing any relevant ones when I searched earlier today but may have missed them. I think there was another Louisa in London as well as the Wandsworth one but stupidly did not note the reference. It would certainly be worth searching the name variants Toni has come up with.
Andrea
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When I had a look at FreeBMD, I found two entries for Louisa ANSELL:
Deaths Jun 1850 (>99%)
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ANSELL Louisa Wandsworth &c 4 364
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Deaths Mar 1851 (99%)
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ANSELL Louisa London W 2 208
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I guess I won't be able to confirm exactly when and where she died???
Thanks for everyone's help so far...
By the way, my favourite site for measuring distances between places is Google Maps:
www.maps.google.co.uk
Best Wishes,
Sarah WALKER (m.s. HALL)
Australia