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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Lancashire => England => Lancashire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: garymark on Sunday 12 August 07 09:02 BST (UK)
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Hi there, I have an ancestor Joseph Markland who married Jane Robinson. Their Children were Thomas, James, Edward and Henry. I am trying to find the birthdate of Joseph if possible. A complications is that the surname may have changed around 1850 from Martland to Markland. Cheers, gary
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Hi Gary
Welcome to Rootschat!
What age would your Joseph Markland / Martland have been approx in 1841 - adult or child?
What establishes him in Chorley?
This should give us something to go after ;D
Regards
SandraC
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Hi
On LDS Joseph married Jane Robinson (age20) on 26/11/1839 in Eccleston by Chorley.
Can't see them in 1841.
John
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Are you sure about the children?
There is:
HO107/526/4
Wrightington, Eccleston
Joseph Martland, 20-4, Engineer, Y
Jane Martland, 20-4, Y
Mary Martland, 6m, Y
(In 1851 their ages were 33 and the children were Mary, 10; James, 9; John, 9; Thomas, 6; Joseph, 5; Richard, 3; William, 1)
Richard
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Hi again
If the LDS marriage at St Mary the Virgin, Eccleston is correct, the full transcript is available on Lan-OPC, including bride & groom's fathers' names ;D
www.lan-opc.org.uk
Also baptisms for Thomas & Joseph showing parents Joseph & Jane, abode Heskin & father's occupation engineer.
Need to hear back from Gary re his information & status of Henry / Edward
SandraC
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Hi
Looks like Mary (c1841) married Thomas Atherton in 1857 in Church(?), Preston.
Twins(?) James + John were lodging with Keown family in Coppull in 1861 census. Both were engineers and both still called Martland.
John
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Curiouser & curioser :-\
1861 has Thomas [17 yrs, engineer, b Welsh Whittle] &
James [should this be Joseph?][15 yrs, engineer b Welsh Whittle] with
Edward [10 yrs b Charnock Richard] &
Henry [7 yrs b Coppull]
as stepsons of Elizabeth Markland
together with a Robert Markland aged 4 b Coppull &
two children aged 10 & 11 named Banks. Elizabeth is a widow & all at Clenkets Lane, Coppull.
So Jane Martland / Markland dies between 1851 & 1856ish & Joseph remarries or hitches up with Elizabeth Banks & then dies before April 1861 :-\
Marriage from 1839 would probably only show "full age" or minor but death reg should place Joseph's age a bit more clearly, if we could find it!
Regards
SandraC
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Righto!
Lancashirebmd has a death of Joseph Martland in 1860 at Chorley sub-district aged 44 years.
This fits with the BMD entry Q4 1860 Chorley.
So Joseph Martland b abt 1816.
Can't see a baptism though on IGI or BIVRI, sorry :-[
Death of Jane Martland is 1853 Chorley aged 35 [lancashireBMD] but it doesn't appear on freeBMDs ???
Still can't see the marriage to widow Banks ::)
SandraC
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Wow!, Thanks for all that effort on my behalf! Much appreciated. Let's see if I can give a bit more information to go on:
Joseph Markland had a son Henry Markland.
I have Henry's marriage certificate: Married to Mary Elizabeth Collinson on 25th October 1873 in Saint George's Church in the Parish of Chorley. His father Joseph is shown as an Engineer. Henry was twenty at the time so Jospeh was married before 1853. And we know his name was Joseph MARKLAND. Now a complicated bit. A probable surname miss-spelling in the records:
When looking for Henry Markland's birth certificate I found no Henry Markland born around 1853 in Chorley. However, there was a Henry Markley born on 25th April 1853 in Chorley. That Henry's father was a Joseph Markley: I suspect that Joseph Markley and Joseph Markland are the same person. There are dozens of Marklands listed in the Vital records for Chorley in the 1800's, however, there are only two Markley's recorded. One is Joseph Markley and the other is his son Henry Markley. The birthdate of 25 April 1853 for Henry Markley corresponds to the birthdate of Henry Markland calculated from later certficates in my posession. Joseph Markley's occupation is given as Engineer on Henry Markley's birth certificate, and later certificates tell us that Joseph Markland was also an Engineer. Though I have no evidence, I feel that joseph Markley and Henry Markley are none other than Joseph Markland and Henry Markland. That Henry's birth certificate gives the mother as Jane Robinson.
In summary: His name may be Joseph Markland or Joseph Markley. He married Jane Robinson. He was an engineer in Chorley in 1853.
The only Jane Robinson marriage I can find that is close is to a Joseph Martland, but, as noted by a researcher here, the names of the children do not match so possibly not our Joseph.
Thanks for all your efforts.
Isn't genealogy fun?
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Oh yes, Some details of Joseph's children: Collated from Census records:
Joseph Markland married Jane Robertson:
Children were Thomas Markland about 1844, James Markland about 1846, Edward Markland about 1851, and Henry Markland 25th April 1853:
Jane his wife must have died after the birth of Henry.
Joseph then married Elizabeth Richardson on 21st April 1854 in Cathedral Manchester, Lancashire. They had one son Robert Markland christened 27 July 1856 in Coppul. After Robert was born Joseph died and Elizabeth married a William Robinson. Elizabeth was a Banks widow with two Banks children when she married Joseph.
Complicated hey?
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I am sure the 1841 and 1851 census entries are the same family.
Joseph is an engineer and is married to Jane.
They are living in Coppull where later children were born.
Thomas (6 in 1851) matches Thomas (17 in 1861).
Richard (3 in 1851 b Charnock Richard) is living next door to them in 1871 (24, b Charnock Richard).
Mary is married; James and John are engineers elsewhere in 1861 (see above)
William and Richard are staying with their uncle and aunt in Coppull in 1861.
The only problem is that Joseph in 1851 has been entered as James in 1861; a common mistake. There is no Joseph on the 1861 census and yet he is married by 1871; James is actually Joseph - the real James is with his twin.
Richard
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:D Brilliant deductions. Sounds good to me and it all seems to fit. Unless I hear anything to the contrary I think you are onto something indeed. Amazing work. Long held problems and sticking points have vanished just like that. Thank you very much indeed. Cheers, Gary
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Hi Gary
Thanks for the extra info - good to know we were on the right lines ;D
Good luck with the rest of the hunt
SandraC
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::)One last question if any of you king people can help. I can't find it for trying. Any idea what address Joseph Martland and his wife Jane lived at in the 1841 census. Here's hoping. Cheers, Gary
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It doesn't give an exact address; it just says 'Mossolee' which I assume is the same as 'Mossy Lea' just outside Wrightington.
Richard
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Cool, thanks for that. I can see I am going to get my maps of Lancashire out and see what town is close to which town and where and when. :D
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The Markland and Martland surnames are pretty much interchangeable. Could you guess which someone was saying? The spelling seemed to remain the same for the duration of the vicar's tenure. In the Bolton area, it stuck as Markland. One of my relatives moved to Ormskirk from there and is thereafter stuck with a T in his name. Markley is only a very slightly different version. Don't you wish that education had been compulsory earlier in history?
A little local knowledge on places:-
St Mary the Virgin, Eccleston, despite being the source of the placename, is actually separated by fields from the village which is to its south. It looks today very much as it did to our ancestors. The parish stretched from the boundary with Leyland all the way to the Douglas Chapel close by the river at Parbold - over six miles - taking in the townships of Heskin, Wrightington and Parbold. Quite a few families from Lathom (part of Ormskirk parish) would use Douglas Chapel, and so would travel to Eccleston for marriages. Our ancestors were fitter than we are! (apologies to my Aunt Hilda who is 81 tomorrow, walks MILES and visits the gym twice a week)
Charnock Richard is easy to find on current maps. Charnock Richard services on the M6 are actually at the west end of the township, where it meets Heskin.
Welch Whittle is now treated as part of Charnock Richard. It used to be the area between the A49 and the B5250, but has been bisected by the M6. It is still signposted as the area centred on the Hind's Head at the junction of the A49 and Chorley Lane.
Clenkets Lane is now Clancutt Lane. It is at the north end of Coppull and runs NNW from the B5251 vaguely parallel with the railway. Footpaths from the end lead on to Charnock Richard. In 1861, an engineer living there would probably be working in one of the pits in the Yarrow valley, or at the bleaching and printing mill at Birkacre. This area (my childhood playground) now forms the Yarrow Valley Country Park.
There would be many mills and coal mines where an engineer could be employed. Steam power was the norm.
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Thanks for all that geographical info. Someone once told me that if I started looking at the family tree I would end up learning things about places and occupations and ways of life in bygone days. Looks like that is going to be the case. Interesting stuff. Good to se all the place names are relatively close to each other too. Much appreciated. Things are slowly becoming clearer. Cheers, Gary :D