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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Yorkshire (West Riding) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) Lookup Requests => Topic started by: rupiezucki on Thursday 09 August 07 04:45 BST (UK)
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I am trying to locate any information on:
Isabel Beatrix COLLIER.
She is in the family bible with a birthdate June 9th 1883.
Her parents were (!?!) John Monkman Peacock COLLIER (who died shortly after the 1881 census ...longest pregnancy in history)
and Catharine Caroline Hill COLLIER.
In 1991, the two daughters, Elizabeth Mary COLLIER (27 Nov 1876) and Ethel May COLLIER (11 Jun 1878) were living with their paternal grandparents George & Elizabeth COLLIER in Atwick. Their brother, George Edwin COLLIER (27 May 1880) died on 7 Jun 1885. His death was registered in Dewsbury, so perhaps Catharine came here?
I can not find Catharine or Isabel on the 1891 census, and can find no record of her birth yet on freebmd.
Catharine and Isabel emigrated to Canada in 1893.
Thank you!
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at the moment - can find nothing but may I ask some questions. I have looked at 1883 full records- no Isabel.
You know that Isabel existed because she emigrated. Are there Canadian records which support her date of birth?
Have you got the death certificate for George- who registered the death? Could you get clues from the address?
After much searching around I think I may have Catherine. Briefly I found her family in 1861 and then found her father in 1881 with his daughter Jane Bettany (transcribed as Bethany). Looked around for this family in 1891 and found this but strangely no Isabel. The writing is poor and they are with another sister Mary B. Transcriptions of names are the ones in brackets- real names are not.
1891 RG12; Piece: 3574; Folio 103; Page 23
North Street Lockwood
Mary B (Fanny) Young head married 43 yrs b Leeds
Horatio E son 17 yrs iron turner b Leeds
Jessie daur 16 yrs b Leeds
Ernest E son 14 yrs post office boy b Ilkley
Florence E daur 8 yrs b Ilkley
Jane A (Bettay) Bettany sister widow 50 yrs b Leeds
Catharine (Collen) Collier sister widow 38 yrs b Leeds
there is a birth for Florence Ellen Young 1883 Wharfedale so she can't be the missing Isabel.
best wishes
heywood
PS I have found Horatio the missing Mr Young- visiting in Manchester- he does not have a young child with him.
PPS I have found Jessie Young -married in 1901 living in Oldham (my hometown) Lancashire with her sister Nellie- (that will be Florence Ellen) so we could perhaps rule out that Florence was really Isabel etc. What a mystery.
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Hi toni,
keep looking - the more the merrier - I am still going through the Yorkshire ones -
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are you looking for Catharines birth too?
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I don't think rupiezucki is- I think it is just the elusive Isabel. I found her in 1891 (feel sure it is) by backtracking Catharine Hill so I am assuming that all that is known.
It is just this girl. I know it is difficult not to judge but it all seems odd- you would think that had she had a child as an unmarried mother, as it were, by living with her sisters she may have had the support. Perhaps Isabel is in hospital that night or anything really.
I think the Canadian side might be helpful- what was she known as there, what proof is there of relationships etc.
I think I may now await rupiezucki's response. I have searched for Collier/ Isabel etc but there could be so many variations and mispellings.
have a good day
heywood
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that looks good- even though it turns up very little to help I suppose.
I had just looked at the 2 quarters around the date given.
I am assuming that she definitely existed because we know she went to Canada. Did she travel as a daughter? Is the birthdate definitely 1883?
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I thought i had found her earlier but the birth year was 1873.
Although her birth date is given as June 1883, this could be her christening date.
Also if she were born June 1883 she could have been registered in the next qtr. (Q2/Q3)
Perhaps as her 'father' had died by the time she was born she could have been listed under the mothers maiden name.
can anyone clarify that she is not on the 1881 / 1891 census away from family.
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I wanted to clarify if the 1883 date was her birth date or christening date that is why i asked if she appears on the 1881 census before anyone says anything! :P
is it possible she was born in Canada? did the family have relations there?
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good point Toni - with it being in the bible, it may be her christening date. There is an Isabela Collier born Leeds 1873 with her parents.
The one we are looking for isn't there with her family.
She could even be adopted by Catharine in 1883- we dont know enough about the Canadian evidence I suppose.
I wonder where she used to say she was born?
Hopefully there may be a little more info. I have checked the Ellis Island site which took people into New York but don't know if tehre are any reocrds for Canadian immigrants.
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hello
doing my head in this one,trying everyting and not getting far.
1881
j m collier 27 leeds
catherine 29 lofthouse
elizabeth may m 4 lofthouse
ethel mary m 2 lofthouse
sarah ann cook servant. horncastle lincoln.
1891
george collier 72 born north frodingham
elizabeth 76 wife b seamer
elizabeth 14 born cleveland
ethel born 12 cleveland .
also on 1881
thomas lidster 68 seamer
ann lidster 44 born thornton scarborough
henry white 22 born falsgrave
isabella collier 4 born scarborough.
isabella was registered in 1876 as isabella .cook. u. lidster. at scarborough.
in 1891 isabella was a servant at cloughton yorkshire.
no record yet of a death or marriage for this isabella yet
still looking lee
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isn't it amazing how certain ones just get you and you don't want to give up. I know I keep saying we should wait and see what comes from Canada but then every time I come back I think 'I'll just have another look'.
I have looked at most of Catherine's family to see if she is with them but can't find her.
I have made up various scenarios as to what might have happened/ been.
If she is Catharine's daughter- then why is she not with her in 1891.
If the other two daughters are with their paternal grandparents - why? Is it because there was a scandal with another child - were they just helping out temporarily-sadly we willnever know this info so without some kind of evidence - we're stuck. ???
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it even seems odd that her two girls were both E M - Ethel May and Elizabeth Mary and then she has Isabel Beatrix :-\
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WOW! You guys are fast... so you want the whole sordid mess do you? ;)
John Monkman Peacock COLLIER was from a family of farmers. They are from the North Frodingham & Glaisdale bunch. John became a solicitor. Catharine was a 'dancer'. The family tells me that they were not thrilled.
John and Catharine were married in Ilkley Parish Church.
The girl's full names are Elizabeth Mary Monkman Peacock COLLIER and Ethel May Monkman Peacock COLLIER. George was George Edwin Monkman Peacock COLLIER. Ethel was my great grandmother. She is alleged to have emigrated with other family as a governess and ended up in Vancouver, Canada - where she married her first cousin, Christopher Scales (his mother was Sarah Jane COLLIER, sister to John MP).
Chris and Ethel were married in 1903, in Vancouver. Elizabeth married Spencer Robinson in 1899, and attended Chris and Ethels' Golden Wedding in Vancouver in 1953.
The Monkman Peacock comes from the maternal side. John's mother Elizabeth was Elizabeth PEACOCK, her father was Monkman Peacock. The name was carried into the next generation by more than one of his grandchildren.
Catharine and Isabel are on a Vancouver census with an immigration date of 1893. Catharine remarried - to Edgar Noseworthy on March 25th 1895 in Vancouver.
Isabel married Benjamin I Joyce in Vancouver on June 4th 1901. They had a couple of children in Canada and then moved to Washington State where they has several more. She is on various American docs as Beatrice, Beatrix, and Isabel, and the Collier is frequently mistranscribed as Collin.
It is VERY interesting that 'Aunty Bea' did not have the MP in her name, but I do not have her birth certificate.
I have no idea what caused John's death. I have a newspaper clipping reporting it (Northern Echo), and it mentions that the local tradesmen closed up shop as a sign of esteem on the day of his funeral.
The HILL children frequently had the second name BENSON, from their mother. I know Jane married a Bettany, so that is deifinitely them in 1891 - THANKS HEYWOOD!
now ...........
Florence is definitely a family name... and the age is right ...... (Ethel's first daughter was called Florence Elizabeth), I wonder if it possible that Catharine gave her daughter to her sister and then ran off with her in 1893. - either that or just lied to the census man. Some of the things I have seen on other census records make me wonder how often they were lied to, or else just took the info from neighbors.
As far as Aunty Bea's birthdate - she definitely was not born before the 1881 census, and Canadian census age is right for 1883.
Toni - I have Catharine's birth info already - 17 Feb 1852, but if I recall correctly, she lied about her age on her 2nd marriage cert. She was already several years older than Edgar, I guess she didn't want to make it worse. BTW - I used to transcribe for freebmd - their own website is always more up to date than any of the pay sites that link to it - unless things have REALLY changed.
:o
As far as the emigration goes... all I know is that Catharine and Isabel came 'around the horn'.
Aunty Bea was close to Ethel and visited frequently until her death (in the 40's - she died fairly young), my dad remebered her well. Unfortunately, he too has passed on, or I would ask him.
The Lidster conncetion: Ann Collier married Thomas Lidster - that's where Isabella got the Collier from.
The 1883 date in the Bible is listed with all of the other children as a birth date, death dates are also listed where applicable, but no christening dates are given.
I have tried every variant I can think of, of all 3 names with BMD. BUT - they are not finished transcribing yet (and they are always looking for volunteers, she said, subtlely).
The children went to live George and Elizabeth because 'Catharine couldn't handle them', but that could mean a multitude of things.
One small correction for 1881 - John was born in Kilnwick, but he reported as Loftus, Catharine was born in Leeds.
I think that is all I know about this... but feel free to ask other questions, you might trigger something. I can always run something past my mother, who always says she doesn't know anything, until you ask a pointed question, and then she is amazed by what she remembers being told (she married into the Scales family, and only knows things secondhand, but, as my dad was virtually raised by Chris and Ethel - his grandparents - she has quite a bit in her sweet old noggin).
Than you all SO much for your help so far!
Rupiezucki
PS - I AM the Canadian connection, and this is all we have. I have been trying to get in touch with the Joyce kids, but no joy so far.
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and if you really want to frustrate yoursleves....
I have NO idea where Ethel was in 1901. Can't find her on a Canadian or British census...come to think of it, can't find Spencer ROBINSON and Elizabeth in 1901 either.
The family home in Scarbrough is now a bike shop.
Anybody have access to the old Scarborough papers? Rumour has it that Chris left England just ahead of the law. My dad says he hit a fellow in the head with his walking stick.... and the he marries his cousin .. what can I say....
;D
You can't pick your family.
Cheers
Rupie
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Hi rupie,
thanks for that - I knew you were the Canadian connection and am so glad that you have filled us in and all our work and interest was not in vain.
I was at the point where your summary ends re England
**no sight of Spencer and Elizabeth in 1901- wondered if they were visiting.
I had wondered about this:
1901 RG13; Piece: 237; Folio: 12; Page: 15.
West Central Hotel Bloomsbury London
Ethel May Collier 22 yrs nurse domestic born USA (American)
I can't see how she could be the same person - she would have to have paperwork I'm sure - but the 'nurse domestic' made me think of a governess kind of person (am I seeing too much into this)
Florence Elizabeth Young is living with her sister in 1901 - unless she emigrated later perhaps??
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hello
just been googling and found collier family forum .
there is a posting from 2001 in which someone called holly is tracing the same family.
all details are the same but also mentioned is another sister named ada who emigrated to america.
lee
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her name is Holly Scales - Christopher is mentioned by Rupie. Holly mentioned the dancing connection - Catharine was a governess I think at a school before her marriage not a dancer - but I suppose it's all in the translation.
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Have you people thought of going into the detective business?
I am the Holly of whom you speak. ;D
Ada turned out to be Benjamin Joyce's sister, at least he HAD a sister named Ada. I think I was misinformed there.
Yes Catharine did a stint as a governess, but the family refered to the 'dancing' connection fairly often. I think they were more than a bit scandalized. The HILLS were a huge family and many of the children left home young.
Now to the Lidster connection - I was wrong about ow the Collier got in there - but I knew they were ours....
Thomas Lidster from Seamer married Isabella Cooke UMPLEBY. Isabella was the niece of Mary UMPLEBY who married Monkman PEACOCK.
Thomas and Isabella's daughter Elizabeth Umpleby LIDSTER (wrongly reported as Uppleby on the birth reg Jun 1848) married Pearson COLLIER, and their daughter Isabella is the Isabella Collier living with Thomas and Ann (the former housekeeper, Ann WHITE) in 1881.
Now here's another one ... but maybe it should rightly go on the North Riding board...
In 1871, Thomas was living in Seamer, with Ann (38), stepson Henry White (12) and George Lidster, grandson age 1.
George was born in Scarbro. His birth was reg Sep 1869. If he is grandson - then Thomas and Isabella had a son. I can find no record yet of a son. Here are the census reports:
1841 Thomas is at home (age 20) with his father Thomas in Seamer.
1851 Seamer Dist 13
Thomas Lidster 31
Isabella Cooke 28
Jane Ann 6
Elizabeth 2 (birth reg Jun 1848)
Jane Umpleby 21 sis in law
all born in Seamer (Seamer registered in Scarbro)
Isabella Cooke Umplelby LIDTSER death reg Scarbro 1857
1861 Seamer Dist 7
Thomas LIDSTER 40
Elizabeth 12
Sushanna 8 (Susanna birth reg Dec 1851)
Emily 7 (birth reg Jun 1853)
Ann White 28 housekeeper b Thornton
Henry White 3 boarder b Falsgrave
all born Seamer except Ann and Henry
1871 Seamer Dist 7
Thomas LIDSTER 51
Ann 38
Henry WHITE 12 stepson
George LIDSTER 1 - grandson (birth reg Sep 1869 Scarbro)
1881 Seamer
Thomas LIDTSER 61 (mistranscribed as 68)
Ann 48
Henry White 22
Isabella COLLIER 4 Scarbro (Isabella Cook Umpleby COLLIER birth reg Dec 1876)
Thomas LIDSTER death reg Sep 1889 Scarbro
1891
Isabella is in service with the Robinsons as previosuly reported (age 14)
Seamer (on Main Street)
Ann
George
So ... did Thomas and Isabella have a son that I can't find any records of, or was George born to one of the girls' out of wedlock - anyone know the naming protocol's of illegitmate children then?
Thanks again
Rupie
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I regret to say I am a bit unsure re the Lidsters and it is quite unfair of you to bring another puzzle into this one that is taxing all our minds and energies ;D ;D ;D
However, I can say that George, I believe, is Elizabeth's illegitimate son. If you look for him in 1881 he is here:
RG11; Piece: 4806; Folio: 100; Page: 1
1 Cloughton Lane, Cloughton
Pearson Collier 36 yrs general labourer b Cloughton
Elizabeth 31 yrs b Seamer
George Lidster stepson 11 yrs b Seamer
Christopher Collier 2 yrs b Cloughton
Free BMD September quarter 1869 George Lidster Scarbro' Vol 9d pg 316 (as you mentioned already)
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having had yet another look for variations on a theme of Isabel Beatrix Collier and drawn absolute blanks, I can only think that in 1891 she was well hidden- perhaps she was registered at birth in another name. Perhaps she ws adopted and wasn't Catharine's child at all.
I imagine that to emigrate you would have to have some proof of identity- does anyone know?
I don't think she was Florence Ellen- as I said she turns up later.
At the moment, though I hate to say it, I am conceding defeat until something else turns up.
best wishes to everyone
heywood
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hello
one of many i will keep returning to but i dont hold out much hope on this one.
lee
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it's so odd that she isn't with Catharine in 1891 - she could have been in hospital - I doubt that she would have been away at school- adn she would have turned up on a census anyway then.
I have looked as much as I can, at Catherine's relatives to see if she is there. She could even be with her birth father I suppose.
Trouble is when it comes to the crunch we haven't a clue ::)
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Thank you all for your help so far.
Does anyone know if I was to go to the central GRO office, are the files searchable?
Thanks again,
Rupie
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have you checked the BMD under Catharines maiden name?
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I've tried Isabel/Beatrice/Beatrix Hill on Free BMD- she may even have been registered with her father's name and then used Collier because it was easier to fit in with mother. Are there no immigrant records for Canada?
added
I don't think from browsing around that there are many records. I have also just understood why they went round the horn - they went to Vancouver (read over our notes again and it made sense) ;)
It occurred to me when searching that she may have even 'adopted' someone from the boat as this was the time of group orphans etc being shipped. Then I thought that I am clutching at straws! No evidence of anything!
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Thanks Heywood,
I do have Aunty Bea's wedding pic, and she DEFINITELY looks strikingly like her 2 'sisters'.
That could be coincidental.
A cousin in Yorkshire is going to try and check out the local GRO offices and see if he can't locate her somehow.
I will report on his progress.
Thanks again,
Rupie
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Does this new info help?
Catharine and John COLLIER were married in Ilkley at the Parish Church, Dec 24th 1875. In 1891 we know that Catharine was with her sister Mary Young (mistranscribed Mary B Fanny on the census) in Lockwood. In 1881, the Youngs were in Ilkley.
Since John died in 1881, and Isabel Beatrix was born in 1883, is it possible that Catharine was living with the Youngs when Isabel was born?
Alternately, perhaps the Youngs had already moved to Lockwood, and she was living with them there, as George Edwin's death in 1885 was registered in Dewsbury.
Therefore, I think we shall find Isabel Beatrix, hopefully as a COLLIER, in the registers for Jun (maybe Sep) 1883 in either Lockwood (reg Dewsbury) or Ilkley (reg Wharfedale).
Does anyone have access to Parish Records for Lockwood or Ilkey for the period 1883-1885?
I have tried, as best I can, to track down all of Catharine Hill COLLIER's brothers and sisters for the period concerned. I cannot find anyone who could be Isabel, but I haven't been able to locate all of her brothers yet. I am still missing (all born in Leeds) Arthur HILL (b 1845), Edwin HILL (b 1849), and Charles HILL (b 1858) on the 1891 census.
Back to work....
Rupie
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CORRECTION:
Lockwood registers in Huddersfield.
The Dewsbury connection now has me completely confused.
Rupie
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I can't find Arthur in 1891 either.
I am sure you already have done this though- his wife may well have died - there is a Lucy Hill death in Worcester.
Some of his children then seem to be back in Yorkshire for 1891.
Lucy is a servant in Ilkley; Amy - a servant in Letham, Yorks; Charles and Gertrude are orphans in Headingley .
The orphans indicate that Arthur has died - although no death for him on Free BMD and there is no sign of Catherine b 1880/1.
Perhaps George Edwin's death certificate would shed some light on the matter re Catharine's address during those years. If you found where he died exactly, maybe those parish records would help.
Nor can I find the other brothers as you say in 1891. Found Christopher B in 1901 with sister Jane- they do seem to be a close knit family so you wonder about this child Isabel and why those two ended up in an orphanage.
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RootsChat must deal with any breach of copyright by its members.
For some time the team of Copyright Editors has been removing breaches of copyright and sending detailed personal messages to the member that had posted the information. Due to the volume of posts and members this is now impractical. Messages in breach will simply be deleted and this notice posted. We apologise for any inconvenience caused but are sure you will appreciate the importance of this issue.
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I've looked for them in 1891 and 1901 - I have tried first name/ place of birth/ county etc but still don't turn up. You never know they may have emigrated too.
I do think it strange that there is no sign of Isabel Beatrix in the registers- I wonder if she is there as 'female' rather than named?
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or under her initials, in a workhouse perhaps?
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I realise we don't have the answers but why? Why would she be in a workhouse? Why is she not with her mother? Why are the others in a workhouse? All these whys :-\
Oh I don't know ::)
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I've looked for female patients and inmates but nothing. I do wonder if she 'chose' a child to take to Canada ..but then again ..why ???
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weren't workhouses also the only access to medical care some people had?
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Holly, greetings from your distant cousin with links to the Ridleys,Sommervilles and Gillies in north Durham, you once said you had photographs that I could possibly identify...have you still got them please..jim taylor morrison
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Hi Jim!!!
I tried contacting you through ancestry.com, but it didn't work.
My photos are in a mess just now - might take me some time to find and sort them.
You can contact me through ancestry - my handle there is canadianstarfighter
Good to hear from you!
Cheers!
Holly
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Hello everyone my Great Grandmother Muriel Elisa Collier lived at 61 Timothy Lane Batley Dewsbury.(1922) She was married to James Robert Graham(born 1889). Does anybody have any information on Muriel they would like to share? Thanks.