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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: mongoose2 on Sunday 05 August 07 21:12 BST (UK)
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The above was a sargeant based in Edinburgh in 1851. his 1st child was born Arthur John in 1851 (from 1871 census in England) in Edinburgh so I am assuming her married his wife selina Elizabeth (UNKNOWN) in scotland, Can someone see if they can find the marriage. Selina was born Maidstone, Kent around 1830 and George was born in Essex about 1823.
Barry
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Hi Barry
.
I've managed to decipher them from the 1851 Census in Edinburgh
Piershill Barracks, Leith District 692/2 Ed Piershill Barracks, Page 6
George Gardner, 28, Sergeant, b. Hatfield
Selina, 28, b. Maidstone
Isabella , 2, b. Ireland
Arthur, 1 month, b. Edinburgh
and many others :)
Gadget
Added - They might well have married in Ireland or England :-\
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Hi again Barry
I've been looking at the 1851 magnified and Isabella is down as born Dungannon, Ireland if that's any help.
Gadget :)
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thanks gadget looks like the marriage might be 1849 in Aylesbury, Bucks to George selina austin who also appears on 1841 in Bexley Kent. Trouble is without a cert I dont know whether selina is born Maidstone.
Barry
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on 1861 census George is an army Captain in Hamilton Lanarks but my access to ancestry wont give me a census sheet. Would you have a look for me
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There won't be any birth certs for Arthur in Scotland. They weren't introduced until 1855. The best that you can hope for is a baptism record. I've looked and can't find anything around that time so far. They will all be on the IGI (maybe not all on line). They might have waited until the got back to England :-\
Gadget
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It's a very strange entry. Arthur is still at Purshill (?) Barracks as before.He's down as A J Gardner 'a child of Captain Gardner). Selina, 33, is down as 'wife of Captain Gardner 13th Dragoons' born England. They seem to have other children. Do you have the full name of the G E Gardner (aged 1 in 1861). If I find a birth record, you'll have to go into Scotland's People to view it though - cost will be 6 units (£1.20)
Gadget
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the 1861 birth is George James Earnest Gardner b. 1861 Edinburgh. I have that from the census England 1871 and 1881. Its the mothers maiden name I'd like
would that be on his birth Cert
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It will be on his Scottish birth cert but you'll have to go to www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk. and do a search. It will probably give the date of parents marriage as well.
Gadget
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He's there in 1861, Leith South, Edinburgh. So for £1.20 you will see all you need to.
Gadget :)
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Gadget I am attaching the birth cert as I cant read her maiden name but I think marriage is in Dublin?
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Dublin September14th 1847. The maiden name looks like Mathers or Nathen or ?
I've attached it for others to work on.
Gadget
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Hi all,
What an interesting search this has been,
On the IGI parent children search for George Gardner and Selina Wathen
Lillian Gertrude Gardner 22 Jan 1854 St James the Less, Ashted, Warwickshire
George James Ernest Gardner 11 Oct 1860 Leith Midlothian
Charles Edward Gardner 15 Jan 1864 Northallerton Yorkshire
All extracted records.
In the 1861 census at Cavalry Barracks Hamilton Lanarkshire
George Gardner 38 b 1823 England Army Captain
Captain George Gardner was a Captain of the 13th Light Dragoon of Charge of the Light Brigade fame. They charged at Balaclava, in 1861 the changed name to 13th Hussars. I am not sure if George was at the Charge but worthwhile checking up.
In the 1861 census, at Piershill Barracks, Edinburgh for Regiment 13 of Light Dragoons
Selina Gardner 29 b 1832 England Wife of Captain Gardner, 13 LT Dragoons.
Caroline Ann Gardner 3 b 1858 Ireland (not J J as shown)
In 1861 census at Piershill Barracks for Regiment 13 of Light Dragoons
Arthur John Gardner 10 b 1851 Piershill Leith South Scholar
Lillian Gertrude Gardner 7 b 1854 England Scholar
Caroline Ann Gardner 3 b 1858 Ireland (duplicate)
George James Ernest Gardner 11 b 1860 Piershill Leith Sout
1871 census at Northallerton Prison
George Gardner 48 b 1823 Hatfield Essex - Governor
Selina Gardner 40 b 1831 Maidstone, Kent
Arthur John Gardner 20 b 1851 Edinburgh - Medical Student
Lillian Gertrude Gardner 17 b 1854 St James the Less, Ashtead, Warwickshire
Caroline Ann Gardner 13 b 1858 Ireland Scholar
George James Ernest Gardner 11 b 1860 Leith Midlothian Scholar
Charles Edward Gardner missing from 1871 census
In 1881 census still at HM Prison Northallerton
George Gardner 58 b 1823 Hatfield Essex - Governor
Lillian Gertrude Gardner26 b 1855 Birmingham Warwickshire
Caroline Ann Gardner 22 b 1859 Ireland
George James Ernest Gardner 20 b1861 Scotland – Solicitors Clerk
In 1891 census still at HM Prison Northallerton
George Gardner 68 b 1823 Hatfield Essex - Governor
Selina Elizabeth Gardner 58 b 1833 Maidstone, Kent
Lillian Gertrude Gardner 30 b 1861 Birmingham - Nurse
George James Ernest Gardner 29 b1862 Scotland – Solicitor
Corine Ida Peacock 15 b 1876 Northallerton Grandchild Scholar
Tom
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Well done , Tom :)
Wathen ;D
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Hi All,
Been surfing 13th Light Dragoons website, I have found a picture with a Private gardner in it at Balaclava.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01l0h/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/01l0h/) link updated 2017
There wer 130 went into Balaclava 61 came out, this photo taken day after battle.
Tom
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Do you think Selina Wathen's father was also Army as they married in Dublin in 1847?
Is a Wathen on your list, Tom?
Gadget
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thanks G. Gardner 2nd from the left was an adj. which matches the records
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Hi Barry
i've done a thorough search of various sources and can't find a baptism for Selina.It might be worth asking on the Kent Board. Someone may have access to the appropriate records.
Gadget
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Hi Gadget and Mongoose,
The name "Wathen" came from the parent/child search on IGI, I posted it without seeing the post with certificate on it. When I look at certificate looks like Nathen to me.
Tom
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I started out as Nathen and you convinced me it was Wathen - what a pair ;D
Gadget
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Hi Gadget,
I cannot find anything for Nathen or Wathen, I suspect she maybe an Army daughter, and maybe had been posted in Dublin.
Moongoose,
I checked out picture again and saw the Cornet & Adjt G Gardener, I wonder if Private Gardner was related. Did you know about the Charge of the Light Brigade connection? It never happens to me on my searches. I maybe get the odd convict sent to Australia or Bigamist, but the Charge of the Light Brigade was interesting.
Tom
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I've got some Napoleonics in my tree but nothing so Grand as this :)
She's certainly down as being born Maidstone, Kent on the 1851 but I see that it's not up acccording to Hugh Wallis. I can't get anything with various surnames.
Gadget
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Hi Mongoose, I wonder if this is the 2 men in the picture, would appear to be different spellings./
Pte William Gardiner 1405 13th LD
RSM George Gardner 1091 13th LD
Tom
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Hi Mongoose,
From same site http://www.pinetreeweb.com/13th-balaclava2.htm
"Eventually, the Regimental Sergeant-Major George Gardner was gazetted cornet and adjutant."
It all fits in.
Tom
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Hi Barry
i've just been searching the Nat Archives and have found a John Wathen, served in 13th Dragoons, 1827 - 1852. Click Here (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=-3893045&CATLN=7&Highlight=%2CWATHEN&accessmethod=0)
looks worth examining.
Gadget
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If it is a parent or relative of Selina, I have found him and his wife in Ealing on the 1861
High Street, Ealing RG9/779 Folio 90 Page 7
John Wathen, hd, 54, Pensioner Army, b. Berkeley, Gloucester
Mary, 55, b. Rodborough (?), Gloucester
Gadget
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Hi Gadget and all,
I have found him in 1851 Scotland census at Piershill Barracks ,Edinburgh. He is in same regimant as George
John Wathen 43 b 1808 Berkley, England Private Soldier
Mary Wathen 45 b 1806 Stroud Gloucester
WIlliam Wathen 7 b 1844 Hounslow Middlesex - Scholar
Tom
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I think we're on to something Tom. If Barry orders those papers then he should get masses of info :)
Gadget
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I have a possible birth record for William Wathen:
Dec q, 1843, Brentford, Middx, Vol 3, page 25
Gadget
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As far as I am aware the maidstone parish records are held in Canterbury Archives which is ok as I have a readers ticket for there so next job is to search for Selina there. It is interesting about them both being in the same regiment because it shows that families moved around with the job. I wonder what happened to John during the charge of the light brigade didnt they all go to battle together.
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Hi Barry
If you notice, John's record shows that he left the Regiment in 1852. The Battle of Balaclava was 25 October 1854.
Gadget
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Teach me to wake up in the morning Gadget LOL
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You should have slept in later, like me ;D
What do you think about the John and Mary Wathen? They are just about old enough to have Selina as a first child. It might be worth asking on the Armed forces Board where the Regiment was in the 1820s.
Gadget
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I did a quick search on Maidstone Barracks (which has now been demolished) and in the 1800's it was a light cavalry barracks serving the 13th/15th/18th & 19th in India and latterly Ireland. The search stops there so maybe a post to the army board would be in order.
I hate mornings as the brain dont wake up until I've had 5 cups of coffee.
Barry
btw are u going to Glasgow in October
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So it's all shaping up nicely then with Selina :)
Re Glasgow - Not sure because we're moving around and commitments have changed. Julian knows :)
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Hi Gadget and Mongoose,
I came up with an article where a Captain Wathen is court martialled by James Thomas Brudewell, soon to be Earl of Cardigan of Light Brigade fame. Brudewell, was slightly eccentric not liked by his junior officers. The incident with Captain Wathen happened at Cork in 1833, I do not know if it was the same John Wathen as only time in article mentioned it is as Capt Wathen, but deing in Ireland in 1833 may be a clue.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01te/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/01te/)
Tom
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HI Tom
Not sure because on the 1851 that you found he is a Private Soldier. Maybe he was demoted :o
I think Barry needs to get those papers from the NA as soon as poss :)
Gadget
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I have read the article Tom & Gadget and dont think he was demoted. see below
Brudenell was disliked by the officers under his command because of the way he had used the purchase system; his temper also caused perpetual quarrels. In 1833, he illegally ordered one of his officers, Captain Wathen, into custody at Cork. Wathen defended himself so well at a court-martial that Brudenell was persuaded to resign the command of the 15th Hussars.
he left the army in 1852 and is living in 1861 on his pension
and this is probably his death
Deaths Dec 1866 (>99%)
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Wathen John 61 Brentford 3a 43
on freebmd
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If it's any help, I can confirm that a Regimental Sgt Major George Gardner of the 13th Light Dragoons did indeed take part in the famous charge of the Light Brigade at Balaclava. He is confirmed in the roll of 'Chargers' in Terry Brightons book, Hell Riders.
Regards,
Arf :)
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Hi Arfur Mo,
Can you look at the photo on this link, taken the day after Balaclava, G Gardner is down as Cornet and Adjutant
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01tf/
"Eventually, the Regimental Sergeant-Major George Gardner was gazetted cornet and adjutant."
Tom
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Hi Tom,
You're quite right, on checking the Army list for 1855, I see that George Gardner is listed as Cornet and Adj of the 13th LDs having gained his promotion on the 27th September 1854, a month before the charge!
Strange then that he should appear as regimental sergeant major on the roll of chargers ???
Regards,
Arf :)
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Arfur - You wouldn't like to check up on the John Wathen that I found on Nat Archives site, would you please - 1827-1853 - same reg - see the messages about him above.
Thanks
Gadget :)
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Hi Arfur Mo,
Could it be that he was promoted but still wearing the RSM uniform, as his promotion had not been properly gazetted, possibly due to the fact that he was in a theatre of war situation.
Tom
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Gadget,
As John Wathen wasn't a commisioned officer he won't appear in the Army lists.
Copies of the documents for the John Wathen you found in the National Archives in WO97 can be ordered direct from their website.
Tom,
Interesting question! I'm not really sure of the answer but it's possible I guess. Fitting a man out for his new officers uniform in a theatre of war would certainly present some problems :P
Arf :)
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The answer to that is here
All 8 officers were in the front of the first line with the exception of Cornet George Gardner who was doing the duties of RSM. Gardner had been RSM until a month previously but as his replacement was not available he undertook his old duties"
An RSM's station was bringing up the rear, behing the rear rank.
Barry
answer was from Neil 1821 on the army board
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Hi Barry,
I did not think it possible to trace the actions of an ancestor so long ago with so much description. That fits in perfectly with everything else we have found. I am so glad to have been part of this search.
Do we have a date of death for George Gardiner and has he a suitable MI at his resting place?
Tom
PS You must be proud
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This is weird - a typical gender split. Here I am thinking we've got George Gardner sorted and I'm interested in Selina Wathen and her line and you three are into soldiers and battles ;D ;D ;D
Gadget :)
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Hi Gadget,
Sorry if I came over sexist, never been involved with a person of historical status before. Yes I am just as interested in Selina, but I think the problem is military records and how are the births, marriages and deaths sent back to poor old blighty when posted abroad.
I am not sure if Selina, who was born of British Army parents in Dublin would have been registered in the Republic. I think these records may still be lurking about in National Archives, or similar.
Tom
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Oh, I wasn't accusing anyone of being sexist, Tom. I just thought it was interesting that, although I find the Battle of Balaclava interesting and to have someone there is even more interesting, I also want to know about the John Wathen.
I noticed that Arfur Mo said that as an 'ordinary' soldier he didn't feature in any lists. That is sad. How many ordinary soldiers died in that battle and never featured in the lists?
Selina was born in Maidstone not Dublin. She and George married in Dublin.
Gadget :)
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Hi Gadget,
I know you werent accusing me of being sexist. It was'nt the soldier thing but the fact that he took part in the Charge of the Light Brigade.
Just to prove it, she was missing in 1881 census, but I have found her, suspect visiting her sister, at 91 Bondgate Darlington , not too far from Northallerton. At 91 Bondgate was James P Peacock, a doctor and his wife Isabella nee Warren ( could that be Wathen and her sister). They married in Edinburgh 07 Jun 1867 Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland, I suspect when they wre both students.
Tom
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Hi Gadget,
Here is 1881 census details for Selina E Gardner: -
At 91 Bondgate, Darlington on 1881 census,
James Baillie Peacock 42 b 1839 Leeds Gen Practice Doctor
Isabella Jane Peacock 31 b 1850 Ireland
George Gardner Peacock 11 b 1870 Northallerton Yorks Scholar
Selina Wathen Peacock 10 b 06 Apr 1871 Northallerton (not present)
Daisy Elizabeth Dewsbury Peacock 8 b 18 Aug 1872 Northallerton
Carine Ida Peacock 7 b 03 Jun 1874 Northallerton
Joy G Peacock 5 b 1876 Darlington Durham
Selina Elizabeth Gardner 46 b 1845 Maidstone Kent.
I think the 2 highlighted names determine the correct family.
Tom
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Hi Tom
Very interesting - particularly the ages that they both give. Selina appears to be 46 in 1881 - b.c. 1835. This makes her 12 when she married ;D ;D ;D But it's definiely her - born Maidstone, etc.
Not sure about them being sisters though as there is a very (real) age gap. However, I think the marriage ref is wong because she is down as being 30 in 1867 and James is 33. James is a flour carter and she is a domestic servant :-\
Gadget
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Hi again
I think we posted very close together. I thought you had just posted the census details but I see you also included the childrens full names. They are sisters - telling porkies about their ages - but the marriage ref that you found is not them. Maybe the married in England - possibly Yorkshire.
Gadget
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Hi Gadget,
I thought you had nodded off, James B Peacock was a doctor who got his degree and MRCS at Edinburgh, in 1967 he was 28, possibly just finished at Royal College of Surgeons. Young Isabella would have been 17, a bit young, but the birth in Ireland could tie up with her Dad serving there.
Tom
PS Never digested "However, I think the marriage ref is wong because she is down as being 30 in 1867 and James is 33. James is a flour carter and she is a domestic servant " Cannot be them.
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I saw the marriage cert - deffo not them. I think it might be a search on the full BMD index in Eng & Wales. The marriage doesn't show up on the partial!
Gadget
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I'm sure when I was looking at John and Mary Wathen last night, I came across an Isabella - the problem is that I can't remember where I was looking :(
Gadget
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Hi Gadget,
Had a look at 1871 English census, I still think it was them that married in Edinburgh, James is 32 and Isabella Jane was 22. They have 2 children George Gardner Peacock, and Selina Wathen Peacock, then, at 61 Town Street Northallerton.
I found the marriage in IGI as an extracted record.
Tom
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Hi Tom
No way was it them. I have looked at the certificate. It's not them! Her parents don't fit and how can a flour merchant become a fully qualified doctor in 3 years ::)
I found them in 1871 but nothing on Isabella before that. I have found an 11 year old Emma Wathen, b. Ireland in the 1861. In an Army barracks in Salford. Parents William and Catherine. It could be her. If so, Isabella and Selina might be cousins rather than sisters as th eparents were too young to have had Selina (born circa 1826 on other records).
Gadget
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Hi Tom
To prove to you it's not them, here are two extracts from the marriage cert - firstly, the info about the couple and secondly, Isabella Warren's parents.
It's not them!
Gadget
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Tom
Tut Tut, we missed a trick. I've remembered where i saw the Isabella:
His children were born as follows
Isabella 1849 dungannon Ireland
Arthur John 1851 Scotland
Lilian Gertrude 22/1/1854
caroline ann 1858 Ireland
george james 11/10/1860 edinburgh
Charles edward 15/1/1864 northallerton
so other than Charles all the rest were born whilst he was in the 13th Hussars
Isabella was Selina and George Gardner's daughter ;D
Isabella Jane Gardner and James Bailey Peacock show on the same BMD page - Dec quarter, 1868, Northallerton, Vol 9d, Page 895.
I rest my case m'lud :)
Gadget
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Thanks guys & girls
James Bailey Peacock married Selina & George's Daughter in Nothallerton in 1868 as gadget found.
Marriages Dec 1868 (>99%)
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Gardner Isabella Jane Northallerton 9d 895
Peacock James Bailey Northallerton 9d 895
From the FreeBMD website
thanks Tidy for all the children that will save me some time. Havent found George's death yet but am now in contact with a member of his family from Genes who I hope is sending me some further info on George.
I have found selina's death in 1906
Deaths Dec 1906 (>99%)
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Gardner Selina Elizabeth 83 Prescot 8b 480
However I cant seem to find her or him in 1901
Barry
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Barry
Have you got the Nat Archive records ordered yet?
Gadget
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Not yet Gadget I have emailed my relative in Oz and asked her if she wants it.
have found george & Selina in 1891 he is still govenor of a prison in Yorkshire ref RG12/4027/F? but itsdoesnt say what part of Yorks.
Also James and Isabella's youngest isnt Joy its Ivy Gertrude Peacock.
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He's in Northallerton, Barry RG12/4027 Folio 131 Page 7
I see that granddaughter, Corina Ida peacock, aged 15 is with them :)
Gadget
PS Why doesn't your website's surname list have any Gardner's on it?
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thanks for Northallerton and I havent upped the pages yet Gadget I'm not that quick. Have entered details in Legacy and next step will be to create pages and then up to website and then amend George's page to include the historical detail.
I'll need to do my job in between.
I still need to earn some money lol
Barry
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Gadget I have contacted Northallerton prison and they have referred me to the reference library in Northallerton who will see what records they hold for the Prison. So watch this space.
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Gadget if have another look you will find George et al have been added. Am now in the process of adding some extra historical info courtesy of yours and Tom's searches. I will post the link to George's page as soon as it has been finished.
Thanks for all your help so far
Barry
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Thanks, Barry. it will make an interesting read :)
I clicked on your travels as well ;D ;D
Gadget
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Ok Gadget page up there
http://www.mongoose.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/2000.htm
and........
Northallerton Library rang and they are sending me some info on George
He is buried there MI says died 5th May 1895
Selina died 10/4/1926
the grave holds 4 bodies
George, Selina, Carine Ida peacock age 15, and Charles edward Gardner age 2 in 1865
I await the rest of the stuff from the library
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Looking good, Barry :)
If you get the BMD cert for William Wathen that I found a few pages ago you could probably get Mary's maiden name :):
GadgetI have a possible birth record for William Wathen:
Dec q, 1843, Brentford, Middx, Vol 3, page 25
Gadget
Gadget :)
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Hi Gadget and Mongoose,
Well done, Gadget, proving mother and daughter ties it all together. The name Warren I thought was a mistranscription for Wathen. Sometimes we go up blind alleys, eh...lots of times.
I still wonder how the Army register births when posted abroad, I cannot find Isabella Jane Gardner's birth.
Tom
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Hi Tom, if they were abroad, it is likely to have been registered at the nearest British Consul Office and then be up on findmypast.
The problem here is that it was Ireland which was part of the UK until 1922 (I stand corrected if this is not so but 1922 was the final partition as far as I remember). And we are all aware of the problem with such records :'(
Gadget
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Hi Gadget,
Not too sure about my Irish history, I have been to Dublin, went to Kilmainham Gaol, what a bleak place this is(was). It held some of the people from the 1916 rebellion, and was a very cruel place. I thought the break up was then but I stand to be corrected.
Isabella Jane disappears in the 1861 census too, I pick her up as a 22yo wife of James B Peacock in 1871.
Tom
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Strange all the other children are still at the Leith barracks with Selina. Do you think she was mis-read or was away at finishing school ???
Gadget
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Hi Gadget and Mongoose,
I suppose she may have been abroad in a "finishing school" but did they go as young as 12 yo?
Just about complete with thisone what do we still need to prove?
Tom
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Selina Wathen's mother's maiden surname :)
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John Wathan and Mary were both born Gloucestershire. i have found a marriage for a John Wathen and a Mary Turner, Wellington, Herefordshire , 1 July 1825 and another to a Mary Davies, 4 July 1824, Brilley, Herefordshire.
I think it will have to be William's birth cert ???
Gadget
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The library in Northallerton came through and I tried to attach the newspaper article they sent but it was too big so lateron I will up it to my website should anyone want to dl it
barry
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Thanks Barry
I'll check it out later - have you got permission for the article from Northallerton, some places can be a bit iffy about Copyright.
Gadget
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Hello again Barry :)
Have you thought of getting the Wills of George and ,possibly, Selina?
If you have the date and place of death, you can get copies by post from York. The full details are Click here (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/rdleaflet.asp?sLeafletURL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Enationalarchives%2Egov%2Euk%2Fcatalogue%2Fleaflets%2Fri2301%2Ehtm&lBack=-1)
They might add an extra dimension to your research :)
Gadget
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Gadget I have uploaded the newspaper article to George's page on the web. Its not often you get such a well publicised figure. I like the part about him prancing around Northallerton on his white charger!!
Barry
and yes I did ask the library. :)
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Hi Gadget and all,
I have found him in 1851 Scotland census at Piershill Barracks ,Edinburgh. He is in same regimant as George
John Wathen 43 b 1808 Berkley, England Private Soldier
Mary Wathen 45 b 1806 Stroud Gloucester
WIlliam Wathen 7 b 1844 Hounslow Middlesex - Scholar
Tom
Hi Barry
Interesting find on the IGI (extracted records)
Jno (John) Wathon, bpt. 21 Jan 1807, Berkeley. Father - William Wathon