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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: ovas on Saturday 04 August 07 08:16 BST (UK)
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Is it likely that the Williams family recently posted on here are linked to the Penfolds ?
On the 1901 cen there is a Robert Penfold & family that share most of the same navs as the Williams family also the p,of ,b Kilburn.hampshire & battersea that are featured in the Williams lot.
Any thoughts about this is welcome.
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Is the Robert Penfold you mention on the 1901 census born 1863 and married to Mary Ann (1865) children Emily, William, John, Rose & James? They are at 19 Wilford Rd, Croydon. Robert is a Hawker.
May not be the same ones. The ones above are related to the Lanes, Smiths, Gardners etc. but not sure about the Williams.
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This is the Penfold family that I was looking at on the 1901 cen
robert h 36
mary wife33
ada drtr 10
charlie s 8
henry s 6
mary ann drtr 1
moses s 3
phoebe drtr 14
robert s 12
do you know of these ?
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Some of the Willliams were also known as Cooper.
The reason for this was that thier mother was Sylvia Williams father Robert Cooper.
John Williams aka as Cooper married Susan Penfold nee Smart.
Penfold was her precious married name.
I have their marriage cert.
Regards Carol
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The family in the 1901 ,the Robert Penfold b 1865 is son of Moses Penfold and
Elizabeth Collinson (married 1849 The Parish Church, Barnes, Surrey, England) another link to the William's family is through Roberts brother Frederick who married Ada Caroline Williams daughter of Charles and Mary Ann Williams.
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i have a few certs of the ones romanygenes mentions if anyone interested.also moses penfold the dad nightowl has been looking for for ages.if anyone knows anything please post it.
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This is interesting. Has anyone ever heard of my great grandmother Queenie Williams who lived in Battersea, two marriages one to a Hearn, the other (well officially they just jumped the broomstick I believe lol) to a Morgan. Any info appreciated.
Moderator's Comment: see new thread if you can help with this query-
www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,459347.0/topicseen.html
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Hi
I have a family here of penfolds..
Robert penfold Head b kiburn
wife mary i don't know her suename? b portsdown Hampshire
Children
Ada b battersea
charle battersea
Henry :
mary ann :
moses:
phebe:
Robert:
Not sure if this right penfolds?
Wanted to know about my family did a Thomas Gladwin married Ada penfold she was b battersea is the right family? could someone help me here..
please jew
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Hi forgot to say I found this info on genes 1881 census....
Plus i wanted to know about a George Gladwin b norwood surrey
and hes wife Harriet cooper b fulham fields both pedlars
i wanted to know names of her sibiling? I have names of their children 13 but one missing.
The familys i spoke about on here penfolds and coopers lived on mitcham common.
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Hi
sorry about this again my head not with it today...
Harriet cooper and George Gladwin are my gg-grandparents
And Thomas gladwin who married Ada penfold are my gg-Aunt and uncle.
Thomas here is George Gladwin son above
jew
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Hi
sorry about this me writing message here i did not know i had to start a new topic which i have done now
jew
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I note with interest the link you describe between the Williams and Cooper families in Croydon. Susan Williams (nee Cooper?) married to John Wiliams of 6 Wilford Road (1911 census) was described as a second cousin to Catherine Hall (nee Dean) died 1912. I wonder if you have any information on her please.
My GGGrandfather was Job Dean B1844 to a Joseph and Priscilla Dean. I cannot find a birth but found a baptism record - Tudley and Capel. He married Sarah Stevens in 1871 Croydon, living in Wheat Road at the time. Witnesses to the marriage were Susan Taylor and Stephen Smart.
One of their daughters Catherine B1883 married a Henry Hall in 1902. In 1911 they were living in Forster Road and in 1912 there was a very nasty incident between Catherine and Henry the outcome of which Henry served 10 years for manslaughter. In a news paper report it said that Susan Williams/Cooper was the deseased's 2nd cousin.
My GGrandmother Sarah Dean B1871 married a Thomas Saunders in 1890. The witnesses to the marriage were Amon Counstable and Annie Cooper (they later married)
I have been told that the Dean family were travellers but I have no information as to this although the occupations they have had could suggest this-Tinman, Tin Smith, Hawker.
Some of the roads they lived in were:Russell Road-Spa Road-Forster Road-Arthur Road-Mitcham Common
Any additional information would also be gratefully received.
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they definately sound like travellers.i will look into it for you and get back to you.
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Hi Dean 44
I( have the marriage certificate of John Williams and its John who is the Cooper) but had to legally marry under his mothers name of Sylvia Williams who was the partner of Robert Cooper. of the Norwood Coopers. Robert was the son of Samuel Cooper KIng of the Gypsies who died in 1856 putting out a chimney fire. I also have a copy of the inquest.
Susan' maiden name was actually SMART but she married William Penfold in St Saviours Croydon 31 12 1886.
She married JOhn Williams/Cooper on the 23 Oct 1893.uinder her married name of Penfold.
I will look into the rest of the info give me a day or two.
Carolx
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Re read your statement and if Susan Smart was a second cousin it had to be on either the Smart side or her mothers side and they have to share the same GREAT GRANDPARENT to be 2nd cousins.
So leave it with me and Ill trace Stephen Smarts line (Susans Father) back and see what the connection is.
Many of these families intermarried cousins marrying cousins.
You mention the Taylors well one of the Taylors married a Hearne/hearn.
I am also related to the Taylors of Nottinghill and Sarah Taylor wife of Jeremiah Taylor who died in a knuckle fight on wimbledon common in 1831 (well documented) she died in the Hadlow disaster in 1852, where 31 hoppers drowned when the bridge collasped.
A lot of the people who died were related.
More to follow later, as I am off to a wedding.
Carolx
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Stephen Smart married a RUTH TAYLOR June qtr Croydon 1871.
It looks as though 2 of their children were christened in lewisham Susannah (Susan) Nov 14 1875 b 22 June 1871 together with her sister Jessie b 28 feb 1874.
On Susans first marriage she must have just only been 16 yrs old. not unusual in those days I am not sure If I have that marriage cert Ill have to check. THey can also lie about their age. but she would have still been a minor (under 21) so she would have had to have permission anyway.
Just have to trace Ruth and stephens marriage cert and find out their fathers names.
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Found Steven and Ruth Smart in 1881 census at 47 Forster Road Croydon with 2 younger sons.Notice different spelling now.
A WILLIAM STEVENS and his wife Caroline and two sons were living next door at 46.
AT no 48 another WILLIAM STEVENS with his wife Sarah with Catherine aged 9 and Sarah aged 3.
THis William was born in Hastings according to the record.
Sarah born in Croydon. aged 28 yrs b about 1852/3
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Thank you very much for this very detailed information. It will take me a while to fully absorb it and will doubtless raise a number of further questions. I had seen that Steven Smart had lived next door to the Stevens' but had not realised that he was family. I had no knowledge of family names and connections as my Grandmother left Croydon c. 1918 and went off to Ireland where she married my Grandfather. She also confused things by using a number of other different names (which seems to have been quite common in Croydon from what I read). In the 1911 census it showed that John and Susan had been married for 25 years with one child, but I suspect seeing that she was married before, that she was counting up the years of her first marriage as I had been looking for a marriage from 1886 under Williams and/or Cooper.
If you should ever come across the name of Dean in your researches, connected with any of these people, I would be very grateful to hear.
Once more thank you very much.
Sue
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Hi Sue
You are going to have to be very careful with your JOb Dean as on the 1871 census there are 2 Job Deans with in 1/2 mile of one another.
The first Job Dean was in the Croydon workhouse which runs parallel to Queens road cemetary.
He was supposed to be 22 years, which would make his birth 1849 an agri labourer single and he was born in Caple kent which in fact should read Capel and it is practically next door to Tudeley of where you found a christening 5 years before in 1844 .....
Then there was another JOb Dean with a wife called Sarah of which it claims he was born in Battersea.
JOb was 22 and Sarah 18 living at what could be 50 or 58 wheat road. it has been known that a person has been recorded twice in the census in different places..
IN the same house is a William Stevens with his wife Catherine and lots of children. also appearing was a grandson called Thomas Saunders and a daughter that married a Bolting.
You say you could not find a birth record for Job but just a christening record.
THis was not unusual as at that time it was not until 1875 that you were fined £2 for not registering your child before the 6 weeks of age. If you didnt register then you could send your child out to work much earlier than you were legally allowed.
But ironically enough most people got their children christened.
I found Job Dean of Kent Tudeley of Capel in the 1911, and 1891. In the 1911 census there appears a Catherine Stevens age unknown but allegingly born in Tipperary Ireland.
The only other possibility was that Job was born under his mothers maiden name.. did you ever find him in the 1851, 1861 census?
In the 1901 census found the same family but his birth place being croydon.
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Who were the fathers of Job and Sarah on their marriage cert. you mention the witnessess.
As a Ruth Taylor married Stephen Smart and one of the witnessess was a Susan Taylor what relaionship she was to Sarah Stevens if any.
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Hi Carole, I'm sorry for the delay in responding but my internet has been down for several days and I've just picked up your last couple of messages. In response to your last message, Job's father's name was Joseph and Sarah's was William. As the internet has only just come back up I need time to fully respond to your earlier postings. I will get back to you over the next couple of days.
In the meantime, thank you so much for all the information you have sent me.
Kind regards,
Sue
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Hello,
I have seen both the Job Deans, but I think they are one and the same person. Also in the workhouse was a Thomas Dean B1855, a relative possibly, but I cannot find a connection. Job and Sarah did not marry until 6th Nov. 1871, although in the 1871 census it shows them as married.
Sarah was B1853'ish, but when William married Catherine (nee Donovan) in 1855 he was a widower, so maybe Sarah is the child from William's first marrage. Perhaps his first wife is the link to Susannah Williams (Smart). I've only recently found out the information about the cousin link.
I have not been able to find Job before the 1871 census. He is in the 1881 census under the spelling Deane, still living at 36, Russell Road. I cannot find his parents, Joseph and Priscilla in any census.
Thomas Saunders was my Grandmother's brother. In 1911 my grandmother Louisa was living with Job and Sarah. My Grandmother's, mother, Sarah Saunders was living in Spa Road with two lodgers, William and Charles Dean, again probably relatives but I cannot find the connection and where they fit into the family.
In 1912 John and Susan Williams had a nephew lodging with them, James Hodges (John's sister's son - I think). James was the 3rd party mentioned in the manslaughter of my G. G. Aunt Catherine.
I look forward to hearing from you.
Best wishes,
Sue
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Hi
Ill digest what you have told me and then get back to you.
I have had troubles with internet as well.
Carolx