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Census Lookups General Lookups => Census and Resource Discussion => Census Lookup and Resource Requests => Topic started by: scottcharles on Sunday 29 July 07 11:40 BST (UK)
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My grandfather's birth was registered in 1901, but for some reason neither he, nor his mother show up in the 1901 census, I'm wondering what's happened to them.
Perhaps it's a transcription error, either way, any help would be much appreciated - I'm still quite new to all of this.
CHARLES DAVIES MYNN b. 3 MAY 1879 Lambeth, County of Surrey (according to his birth cert)
CLARA AUGUSTA MYNN b. circa 1861 (according to census records)
On the birth certificate they are listed as living at:
14 St. Stephen's Terrace, Lambeth, Co. of Surrey
My grandfather married his first wife in 1903, the marriage was registered in Southwark.
What happened to them in this time? I can't find a death date for Clara either!
Interestingly, his birth certificate was only issued on Dec 6th 1901...
Any ideas?
Previously, Clara appears in the 1871 census in what I presume to be the family home in Portsea.
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Was Charles' mother married when she gave birth? She might have married/remarried and Charles took his step father's surname until his marriage.
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can you clarify Charles Mynn's actual DoB - above you mention 1879, but previously 1892 ... not to mention later registration in 1901 ?
Have you found Claras parents in 1881 ?
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Hi
If you could post the census details you do have please - it would help us look for him in 1901
Cheers
Jan ;)
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1871 - RG10/1146; Folio: 48; Page: 34 - Portsea / Landport, Hants
Bursledon House, Villiers Road
William P D E M Mynn 32 Head Commision Agent London, Surrey
Marianne A Mynn 32 Wife London, Surrey
Clara A Mynn 10 do
Marian A Mynn 9 do
Thomas Mynn 6 son do
Emily Mynn 5 do
Annie M Mynn 4 do
Albert L Mynn 2 son do
Susannah Mynn WID 67 Mother Hants, Petersfield
Sophia Collinson 37 Servant
Eliza Humphrey 50 do
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From 1871 census in Portsea (RG10; Piece: 1146; Folio: 48; Page: 34)
I see her parents are William & Marianne Mynn
From Free BMD:
Marriage:
June Q 1859 Newington Surrey 1d 250
William Parker De Morley MYNN and Marianne Augusta REYNELL
Birth:
Sept Q 1838 St Olave Southwark 4 358
William Parker De Morley MYNN
Birth:
June Q 1860 Lambeth, Surrey 1d 324
Clara Augusta MYNN
Jenny
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A death for her father:
Deaths:
Mar Q 1915
MYNN William P De M 76yrs Nottingham 7b 586
Jenny
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hhhhm, 1881 strange ..... altho this may be a clue ... right age for Mother seen in 1871 Portsea.
Deaths Sep 1881
MYNN Susanna 78 Sheppey V2a V434
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Sure, sorry about that - no the date of birth is definitely May 3rd 1879 on the certificate - I must have got him confused with that 1892 date (I'm looking into lots of rellies at the moment, sorry!).
There is no father mentioned on the birth certificate, although I have a dark hunch about some possible goings on, as I am sure that I have found a record *somewhere* of Clara living with her father at St. Stephen's Tce shortly before my grandfather's birth, nothing certain though, I need to re-find the document, it was a directory listing.
Clara's mother was in Lambeth, Clara's father moved away to Notts at some point and started another family there, I'm not sure of the exact dates of him moving, although I have the birth dates of the children from that relationship (no marriage there).
Marianne A[ugusta] Mynn is listed in the 1871 and 1891 census, but not in the 1881 as far as I can see. In 1871 she is in Portsea, in 1891 she is in Lambeth with another mysterious daughter, Violet La Glace Mynn, I think born after her husband left her, but not sure.
1871 census: RG10/1146; Folio: 48; Page: 34
1891 census: RG12/407; Folio 53; Page 1
Is that ok? If you need me to clarify anything else just let me know.
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William Parker de Morley Mynn is my great great great grandfather, a hops and commission agent.
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Hey Newfy,
Unfortunately she is with her brother in 1881 in Sheppey, Kent
31 Cyde St, Minster, Sheerness, Sheppey, Kent
John L White Head Wid 80yrs Pensioned Shipwright b. Portsea, Hants
Susannah Mynn Sister-in-law Wid 76yrs Housekeeper b. Liss?, Hants
Jenny
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well spotted Jenny !
More clues - but doesnt help it seems knowing where Clara's sisters married (also noticed Violet)
Marriages Mar 1884
Mynn Marian Ada St. Saviour V1d P151
Marriages Jun 1886
MYNN Emily Lambeth 1d 537
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Found them ;D ;D ;D
1881 - 39 Goldstone Villa, Brighton & Hove, Sussex (RG11; Piece: 1098; Folio: 42; Page: 28)
Marianne Mynn Wife M 42yrs No occ b. Clapham, Surrey
Marian A Mynn Dau 19yrs No occ b. Clapham, Surrey
Emily Mynn Dau 16yrs No occ b. Clapham, Surrey
Annie M Mynn Dau 15yrs No occ b. Clapham, Surrey
Albert L Mynn Son 12yrs b. Clapham, Surrey
Violet Mynn Dau 7yrs b. Clapham, Surrey
+ 1 servant
No Clara tho :-\
Jenny
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They were enumerated as Myson ::)
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Brilliant !
The age of Violet is confirmed in the 1891 census, where she's the only child at home with Marianne (still shown married)
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Thank you everyone for everything so far - you're helping me uncover mysteries!
If anything comes up for Charles Davies Mynn or Clara Augusta Mynn however, please let me know - I still don't know who my great grandfather is on that side or whatever happened to Clara!
Again, thank you so much!
If Clara had Charles Davies in 1879 and no father was registered on the birth certificate that could explain why she was out of her mother's home - I'm suspecting some kind of illegitimate birth, the fact the William P D M Mynn isn't in the household either worries me. As I said, I think they were all living in Lambeth at the aforementioned address at the time.
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scoured 1881, 91 and 01 for them .... :(
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Found the mother Marianne in 1901
1901 census - 8 Tintern Street, Brixton, Lambeth, Surrey (RG13; Piece: 424; Folio: 154; Page: 40)
Marianne A Mynn Head Wid 62yrs b. Newington, London
Doesn't help much though as she is by herself ::)
Jenny
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Are you aware of the bankruptcy proceedings in relation to William Parker de Morley Mynn? There's a listing in the Bankruptcy Court 31 July 1878 (adjourned first meeting - W.P. de M. Mynn). (The Times, 31 July 1878)
He may also be the W.P. Mynn, hop merchant, of Three Crown Square, Borough, who faced bankruptcy proceedings in 1866, but managed to get them stayed in order to reach agreement with his creditors (The Times, 19 Oct 1866) Modified - this in fact seems to be Walter Parker Mynn, though the address is the same later associated with William's business
Apologies if you already know all this - not quite on the point of your question :)
Anna
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Coincedentally, I came across those records this morning but I hadn't looked at them properly, that could possibly explain the reason for running off to Notts...
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The archives of the London Gazette also contain numerous references to William Parker de Morley Mynn in the 1860s and 1870s - he seems to have been the subject of a number of bankruptcy petitions over the years and was actually adjudged bankrupt on 30 May 1878.
http://beta.gazettes-online.co.uk/home.aspx?GeoType=London
Anna
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The archives of the London Gazette also contain numerous references to William Parker de Morley Mynn in the 1860s and 1870s - he seems to have been the subject of a number of bankruptcy petitions over the years and was actually adjudged bankrupt on 30 May 1878.
http://beta.gazettes-online.co.uk/home.aspx?GeoType=London
Anna
This is very interesting, it might explain his sudden departure and the change of surname with his children that he had in Notts, may have been avoiding the bankruptcy...
The children born to him in Notts were all given the surname "de Mynn".
...Another interesting fact cropped up through these Gazettes, he was trading with his uncle, William Parker Mynn (cricketeer brother of the famous Alfred Mynn) in the hops/beer industry until 1857 when they signed a mutual agreement to close business.
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Just noticed a mistake I made - again, sorry, I've been staying up too late researching, on the birth certificate for my grandfather:
CLARA AUGUSTA MYNN is registered as living at 14 St.Stephen's Terrace, Lambeth Surrey.
Her father, William Mynn is listed as living at the same address in the Post Office Directory of Surrey, 1878 Surrey 1870s Post Office.
Side note:His uncle and cousin (Walter Parker Mynn and Ernest Mynn respectively) are living at 19 and 20 South Gro, Rye La, Peckham at this time - I'm assuming South Grove, Rye Lane, Peckham - Walter Parker Mynn was sued and classed as a prisoner in 1829...Interesting, could be some kind of fraud going on here.
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Hi,
Checked the 1881 census for 14 St Stephen's Terrace, Lambeth and unfortunately none of the Mynn family appear to be living there. There is a Joseph & Georgianna Cartwright and their 7 children living there.
Sorry, but thought that I'd cancel that one out for you
Jenny
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How strange, maybe they were only there briefly.
Another mystery has just cropped up, well, one I already knew about but now have confirmation of.
In the 1901 census Marianne Augusta Mynn is still living at 8 Tinter Street, without any children, there are several people in the household - a wife, a son, a mother and a boarder.
The three people who are related are:
Fanny Harris
Sidney G. Harris
Susan D. Harris
The boarder is a carpenter named Archibald Dodds.
The mystery is that Marianne is listed as a widow, even though we know her husband didn't die for another 14 years. (He had since moved to Notts and started a family there, de Mynn)
Could this be something to do with the law (I believe now missing persons are registered as dead after 7 years MIA, though I don't know about that then), or do you think she had just given up on him?
Perhaps there is something to do with fraud here? Or maybe she was thrifty and knew how to support herself by having boarders? Perhaps they are relatives from her own family.
Anyway, it's quite strange.
PS: Thank you for checking that for me, and thank you everyone who has helped so far!
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Also checked 19 & 20 South Grove, Peckham, Camberwell and there are no Mynn's either. There are a Noel & Annie Cobb at no 19 and Emily Shoutts at no 20.
And 19 & 20 Rye Lane, Peckham, Camberwell are also inhabited by others namely a Josiah Bloomfield MD and his large family ::)
Sorry
Jenny
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How strange, maybe they were only there briefly.
Another mystery has just cropped up, well, one I already knew about but now have confirmation of.
In the 1901 census Marianne Augusta Mynn is still living at 8 Tinter Street, without any children, there are several people in the household - a wife, a son, a mother and a boarder.
The three people who are related are:
Fanny Harris
Sidney G. Harris
Susan D. Harris
The boarder is a carpenter named Archibald Dodds.
The mystery is that Marianne is listed as a widow, even though we know her husband didn't die for another 14 years. (He had since moved to Notts and started a family there, de Mynn)
Could this be something to do with the law (I believe now missing persons are registered as dead after 7 years MIA, though I don't know about that then), or do you think she had just given up on him?
Perhaps there is something to do with fraud here? Or maybe she was thrifty and knew how to support herself by having boarders? Perhaps they are relatives from her own family.
Anyway, it's quite strange.
PS: Thank you for checking that for me, and thank you everyone who has helped so far!
It wasn't unusual for abandoned wives to call themselves widows. When my ggg-grandfather made a bigamous marriage and hotfooted it across the Atlantic, his abandoned wife in Glasgow described herself as "married" in the next three censuses (1871-1891) before finally giving up the ghost and going for "widow" in 1901. In fact he outlived her by a decade.
Anna
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Also if you look at the 1901 census, the Harris' family and the 3 boarders are actually at no 10 Tintern Street, Marianne is at 8 Tintern Street. She appears to be by herself but there are two others living at 8 Tintern Street Mr & Mrs Whitcombe but there is a slash between their names and Marianne's name which means that they are two seperate families.
It is odd that she is listed as Widowed, but I agree with Anna, it may just have been how she explained it to the census chappy ;)
Jenny
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Also if you look at the 1901 census, the Harris' family and the 3 boarders are actually at no 10 Tintern Street, Marianne is at 8 Tintern Street. She appears to be by herself but there are two others living at 8 Tintern Street Mr & Mrs Whitcombe but there is a slash between their names and Marianne's name which means that they are two seperate families.
It is odd that she is listed as Widowed, but I agree with Anna, it may just have been how she explained it to the census chappy ;)
Jenny
Yes, I was about to say the same thing. The 1901 transcriber/indexer has got it wrong - Marianne is in a single-person household, one of two households at no. 8. Fanny & co are next door at no. 10.
Anna
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Hi,
Do you know what Charles's occupation was? Just thought it might help to find him on the 1901.
I wonder if Clara Augusta left the country, after the birth of Charles and returned, it certainly seems strange that the birth was not registered until Dec 1901. It certainly is a mystery ???
Kath
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Also checked 19 & 20 South Grove, Peckham, Camberwell and there are no Mynn's either. There are a Noel & Annie Cobb at no 19 and Emily Shoutts at no 20.
And 19 & 20 Rye Lane, Peckham, Camberwell are also inhabited by others namely a Josiah Bloomfield MD and his large family ::)
Sorry
Jenny
Here are some edits I did from the records I mentioned I found them in:
(http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k200/syfersbigbud/mynnsurreyedit.jpg)
(http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k200/syfersbigbud/mynnpeckhamedit.jpg)
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Hi,
Do you know what Charles's occupation was? Just thought it might help to find him on the 1901.
I wonder if Clara Augusta left the country, after the birth of Charles and returned, it certainly seems strange that the birth was not registered until Dec 1901. It certainly is a mystery ???
Kath
I guess it's a possibility, though I don't think she would have had much money, she was only about 18 when she had him...I don't know how much tickets used to cost those days though!
It might be worth looking at passenger lists I guess...
It's a shame the 1911 census records aren't out yet, I could check to see if she went with her father to Notts as bizarre as that might sound.
As far as I know Charles Davies Mynn was an engineer. I've been told that he worked for Vickers in Dartford/Crayford (Kent) at one point, but although I've emailed around no one seems to hold records for Vickers - I believe it was bombed in WW1, as Dartford was the most bombed place in Britain.
What I do know about Charles Davies Mynn is that he had a first wife, Emily Jessie Smith who he married in 1903 in Southwark. There is a Gertrude Clara Mynn registered as being born the Dec qtr of 1904 in Southwark, who could be a potential child from that marriage, but for whom I can't seem to find any records for.
I do know that he is in grave no. H4.11
buried 17/10/1943 aged 64 living at 5 Beech Walk at time of death
register no. g609. Also in the grave with him is Emily Jessie buried
2 Apr 1939 aged 59 from 41 Crayford Rd register no p1355.
On my father's baptismal records (he didn't even know he was baptised!) I found:
Name: Gladys Winifred Mynn (married and became Short)
Year of Birth: 1916
Place of Birth: Dartford
Mother's Maiden Name: Emily Jessie Smith
as a witness to the christening, however, I haven't been able to find out much about her since, I will try some more enquiries using the ancestry database for her.
So basically I know that in 1903 he was in Southwark, and by 1916 he was in Dartford, I have been told that he was an engineer and that he work for Vickers.
Sorry if that was long, just trying to organise thoughts.
PS: avm and JenClark, thank you for identifying that error for me!
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Don't know if this will be of any help, but Walter Parker Mynn and family are living at 278 Upper St London on the 1881 census, they have a 2 year old child (1879) born in Belfast, a possible this is where Clara and baby went to :P
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Interestingly, his birth certificate was only issued on Dec 6th 1901...
this would probably be a re-issue birth cert. that he needed to get married, i have one of my grandfathers dated 1933, although he was b. 1908
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It is possible that she went away with her baby, maybe with her father too?
After trawling through the 1881 census for many hours this seems to be the only possible for Clara:
1881 - 285 Strand, St Clement Danes, Westminster
Matilda Russell & family licenced victualler b. Surrey
Clara Myum Serv 20yrs U Barmaid b. Surrey
+ other barmaids
I have looked and looked at the image and it defiantely says Myum not Mynn but there are no other Myum's in the whole 1881 census so I assume that it is a mistake ::)
But no baby Charles, so it is still a mystery!
Jenny
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Don't know if this will be of any help, but Walter Parker Mynn and family are living at 278 Upper St London on the 1881 census, they have a 2 year old child (1879) born in Belfast, a possible this is where Clara and baby went to :P
Walter Parker Mynn was in business with my gg-grandfather according to things that I have found via the London Gazette website. My gg-grandfather also bears the name Parker, William PARKER de Morely Mynn, which I assume is an ode to him in some way. If you look at my post regarding post office records, I have found Walter Parker and his son Ernest living in Peckham at the same time, not too far away from where my grandfather's birth was registered in Lambeth. I will have a look to see if I can find any trace of her in N.Ireland...Thanks for the idea.
Walter Parker Mynn has come up as both a cricketeer and a a bankrupt prisoner, two reasons to travel!
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Think I might have found Charles ;D
1881 - 49 Merrow Street, St Mary's Newington, Lambeth, Surrey (RG11; Piece: 547; Folio: 46; Page: 26)
Mary Griffin Head W 48yrs Upholstress b. Walworth, Surrey
Walter Griffin Son 17yrs Zinc Worker b. Walworth, Surrey
Alfred Griffin Son 10yrs Scholar b. Walworth, Surrey
Charles D Mynn Nurse Child 1yr b. Lambeth, Surrey
He was in the index as Mysin but it definately says Mynn ;)
So perhaps it is Clara as the barmaid ::)
Jenny
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Think I might have found Charles ;D
1881 - 49 Merrow Street, St Mary's Newington, Lambeth, Surrey (RG11; Piece: 547; Folio: 46; Page: 26)
Mary Griffin Head W 48yrs Upholstress b. Walworth, Surrey
Walter Griffin Son 17yrs Zinc Worker b. Walworth, Surrey
Alfred Griffin Son 10yrs Scholar b. Walworth, Surrey
Charles D Mynn Nurse Child 1yr b. Lambeth, Surrey
He was in the index as Mysin but it definately says Mynn ;)
So perhaps it is Clara as the barmaid ::)
Jenny
Blimey I'm so excited about this, I'm going to check it out right away!
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so was I lol ;D
now I can have a break!!!
Jenny
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so was I lol ;D
now I can have a break!!!
Jenny
A very well deserved one at that, I can't thank you enough, I really can't.
I'm going to look deeper into this, everything seems right, I just need to fit the pieces together.
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Fabulous, glad we could help ;)
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Jenny, take the 'award of the month' :) :)
PS. Must remember to add 'Nurse child' to grand*, Neph* et al ;D
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Thanks Newfy ;D
What is a nurse child anyway? Does it mean she was looking after him for Clara, or babysitting, his foster parent, or was his wet nurse? I have never seen it before...
Jenny
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Hi
See
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,55106.0.html
For a long discussion on Nurse child
Jan ;)
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Thanks for that Jan, hope it helps you scottcharles, though it may make him harder to find in the later census returns if he has been given a different name :-\
Do you think that when he ordered his birth cert in 1901 it was when he found out that he was adopted or fostered? Or when he was old enough to want to find his real mother? How sad for Charles and Clara if this is what happened to him.
Jenny
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It does make me sad, she was so young. I'm just having trouble tracing her.
I have found a potential birth from my grandfather's first marriage - a certain Gertrude Clara Mynn b.1904 in Southwark - the year after he got married to Emily Jessie Smith.
On my father's baptismal records there is a person by the name of Gladys Winifred Mynn (or Short, there were records somewhere of a marriage to a Short) - I need to find the certificate the office sent me again, but I believe that she was my father's half sister. Can't find her on the ancestry site but she can be found onthe free bmd here:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?r=132421650&d=bmd_1184743028
She is registered as being the godmother on the certificate and I believe that she was born in 1916 in Dartford, which makes sense as I know Charles Davies Mynn moved to Kent at some point during or before WW1 to work for the Vickers company there. He died in Dartford too.
I can't find any other trace of these two potential half sisters, and no death or marriage records for Clara Mynn in the 20th century.
I really do hope nothing bad happened to her, if it did it did, but it just sounds like the poor woman went through an awful lot.
...And there was I thinking that the Griffin family were some benevolent friends.
I don't know if Charles Davies Mynn had contact with his mother as he died so shortly after my own father's birth, but due to that first child that I mentioned I think he may have at least want to make an ode to her of some kind. I know that he definitely had at least 2 children (daughters) that survived his death, but I don't know anything about them either other than the possible leads mentioned.
PS: I am currently searching for records of Charles D Griffin in the 1891 census as it seems there's a possibility he may have been given that name judging by those posts on nurse children. I have found a Charles Griffin who is the right age at the Central London District School in 1891 that could be a possibility thus far.
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Thanks for that Jan, hope it helps you scottcharles, though it may make him harder to find in the later census returns if he has been given a different name :-\
Do you think that when he ordered his birth cert in 1901 it was when he found out that he was adopted or fostered? Or when he was old enough to want to find his real mother? How sad for Charles and Clara if this is what happened to him.
Jenny
I absolutely agree :'(
Have you considered purchasing Charles Davis's marriage cert in 1903? It might provide clues, i.e. his address, which could possibly be the address he was living at in 1901. Also so often the witnesses provide clues, but of course there is the possibility that it wouldn't help one iota.
It is strange that Clara's father is also missing, I found his new family as lodgers on the 1901, but no sign of William ???
Kath
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On my father's baptismal records there is a person by the name of Gladys Winifred Mynn (or Short, there were records somewhere of a marriage to a Short) - I need to find the certificate the office sent me again, but I believe that she was my father's half sister.
birth: Gladys W Mynn (mother maiden name Smith) Dartford 2a 1116
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birth: Gladys W Mynn (mother maiden name Smith) Dartford 2a 1116
oops forgot to put : Q1 1916
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I absolutely agree :'(
Have you considered purchasing Charles Davis's marriage cert in 1903? It might provide clues, i.e. his address, which could possibly be the address he was living at in 1901. Also so often the witnesses provide clues, but of course there is the possibility that it wouldn't help one iota.
It is strange that Clara's father is also missing, I found his new family as lodgers on the 1901, but no sign of William ???
Kath
I do know what happened to William (the father) through a distant cousin of mine - William ran off to Nottingham between the censuses and had a child with another woman who we don't think he married. He died there in 1915. His children bear the surname de Mynn, I believe he may have been trying to avoid previous bankruptcy charges so changed his name...Not sure of that of course, but that's my hunch.
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Ordered the certificate today...The plot thickens!
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Good luck, my fingers are crossed that it has some clues for you ;)
Jenny
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Got the certificate through everyone!
I was just wondering if somebody could provide me with some advice as to where to go next with this. I'm still yet to find an 1891 and 1901 record for Charles Davies Mynn.
Anyway, here are the details from the wedding cert:
1903 MARRIAGE SOLEMIZED AT ST STEPHEN'S CHURCH, IN THE PARISH OF WALWORTH IN THE COUNTY OF LONDON.
(funny as there is a St. Stephen's church on the corner of the road that St. Stephen's Terrace is on in Walworth, he was born at 14 St Stephen's Terrace!)
WHEN MARRIED: DECEMBER 6TH 1903
Charles Davies Mynn 24 Bachelor Boot Finisher
109 MANN ST - -
Emily Jessie Smith 23 Spinster Book Folder
101 Westmorland Road
Alfred [R]osling Smith Warehouseman
WITNESSES: Alfred Edward Smith
Christine Mabel Clark
Anybody new looking at this, please note that I'm not too interested in the Smith family as they are not related to me :)
I wonder if Charles was ever reunited with his mother, if she ended up in the workhouse or if she ever married again...
Any advice greatly appreciated!
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Hello again Scott,
I know the Smith's are not the object of your search but I thought I would look them up in the 1901 anyway to cancell out the possibility of Charles staying there as a boarder or the like.
Unfortunately he is not but here is their census anyway:
1901 - 101 Westmoorland Road, Newington, St Stephen, Southwark (RG13; Piece: 379; Folio: 37; Page: 66)
Alfred R Smith Head M 46yrs Woollen drapers Assistant b. Lambeth, London
Emily Smith Wife M 43yrs b. Walworth, London
Emily Smith Dau U 21yrs Book folder (binder) b. Walworth, London
Alfred Smith Son 17yrs Commercial Clerk b. Walworth, London
Ernest Smith Son 14yrs General Merchants Assistant b. Walworth, London
Herbert Smith Son 111yrs b. Walworth, London
Ellen Brett Mother-in-law Wid 75yrs b. Holborn, London
So I am off in search of Charles....hopefully something will come up :)
Jenny
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Decided to check the other witness in case he was with her, but alas no ::)
This is her anyway in case she proves to be important later...
1901 - 61 Layard Road, Bermondsey, Surrey
Thomas Clark Head M 58yrs Clerk b. Camberwell, London
Edith Ann Clark Wife M 40yrs b. Bexley Heath, Kent
Christine Mabel Clark Dau 21yrs Clerk b. Bexley Heath, Kent
Henry Thomas Clark Son 17yrs Office Lad b. Eltham, Kent
Elsie Louise Clark Dau 15yrs b. Eltham, Kent
Reginald Arnold Clark Son 13yrs b. Dartford, Kent
George Wm Clark Son 8yrs b. Camberwell, London
Jenny
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Think I might have found Charles ;D
1881 - 49 Merrow Street, St Mary's Newington, Lambeth, Surrey (RG11; Piece: 547; Folio: 46; Page: 26)
Mary Griffin Head W 48yrs Upholstress b. Walworth, Surrey
Walter Griffin Son 17yrs Zinc Worker b. Walworth, Surrey
Alfred Griffin Son 10yrs Scholar b. Walworth, Surrey
Charles D Mynn Nurse Child 1yr b. Lambeth, Surrey
He was in the index as Mysin but it definately says Mynn ;)
So perhaps it is Clara as the barmaid ::)
Jenny
Right well, after looking for ages I finally found 109 Mann Street - only to find Charles not there, but guess who was there.......his foster mum Mary Griffin ;D
There are two families at the address, don't think they are related but will put all the details down in case.
1901 - 109 Mann Street, Newington, St Stephen, Southwark (RG13; Piece: 379; Folio: 57; Page: 30)
Amelia Holmes Head Wid 76yrs b. Blackfriars, London
Amelia Bool GDau S 26yrs Book folder b. Lambeth, London
Annie Devall Niece S 40yrs Book folder b. Lambeth, London
Alice Devall Niece S 36yrs Book folder b. Lambeth, London
Ernest Randell Nephew S 18yrs Printer b. Lambeth, London
Edith Randell Niece S 16yrs Book folder b. Lambeth, London
and
Mary Griffin Widow 68yrs b. Newington, London
Annie Jarrett Niece S 44yrs Charity? b. Camberwell, London
Not sure where Charles was but it seems that he was still living with his foster family in 1903
Jenny
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Well this is certainly turning into a big challenge!
I thought that I would chase the other members of the foster family in the 1891 and 1901 census in case he was with his foster brothers but he seems not to be there either ::)
Here are the details in case you want them:
1891 - 95 Portland Street, St Mary's, Newington, Walworth, London
Mary Griffin Head Wid 56yrs Needlewoman (shirt) b. Walworth, London
Alice Hooker Dau Wid 29yrs Charing b. Walworth, London
Alfred Griffin Son S 20yrs Bacon? ?? b. Walworth, London
Nellie Hooker Grandchild 2yrs b. Walworth, London
John Strudwick Friend Wid 57yrs Plumber b. Camberwell, London
1891 - 53 Cator Street, Camberwell, St Luke's, London
Walter W Griffin Head M 27yrs Labourer (iron foundry) b. Walworth, London
Elizabeth S Griffin Wife M 21yrs b. Walworth, London
So no Charles there...perhaps the Charles Griffin at the school is your man??
Marriages:
Walter William Griffin m. Elizabeth Sarah Wilson Sept Q 1889 St Saviour Southwark
Alfred John Griffin m. Amelia Hannah Strudwick Dec Q 1891 Kingston, Middlesex/Surrey
Alice Mary Griffin m. Harry Hooker Sept Q 1885 St Saviour Southwark
1901 - 43 Beaker? Road, St Lukes, Camberwell, London
Walter Griffin Head M 37yrs Bricklayer b. Newington, London
Elizabeth Griffin Wife M 31yrs b. Camberwell, London
Lillian Griffin Dau 9yrs b. Camberwell, London
Florence Griffin Dau 6yrs b. Camberwell, London
Benjamin Griffin Son 4yrs b. Camberwell, London
Clara Griffin Dau 2yrs b. Camberwell, London
George Griffin Son 1yr b. Camberwell, London
Frederick Wilson Brother-in-law S 29yrs Bricklayer b. Newington, London
1901 - 25 Ripley Street, Newington, St Andrew, Southwark
Alfred Griffin Head M 30yrs Coal Trolleyman b. Newington, London
Amelia Griffin Wife M 30yrs b. Newington, London
Ruth M Griffin Dau 8yrs b. Newington, London
Florence M Griffin Dau 4yrs b. City, London
John Strudwick Father-in-law Wid 66yrs Zinc Worker b. Camberwell, London
Not sure that that really helps much but at least it cancels out some possibilities :-\
Jenny
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You really do work some magic! Well, that is really interesting - at least I know that he didn't end up in the work house as a small child then, that Mary Griffin must have done her job :)
I wonder where he was then. By 1901 he would have been a bit too old for the school I reckon, but in 1891 that could well by him. Would a child being cared for by a foster family go to a district school?
I wonder if he adopted the name Griffin...He was only 1 in the 1881 census, so I can see why the name wasn't changed.
Poor Clara, I really hope she didn't end up in the poor house. I did a lot of reading on them last night and they seem like awful places.
I'm glad that Charles wasn't in one though, that's one neck saved (we think!) :D
Thanks again Jen, really appreciate all your hard work.
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I got a great email from Lee Jackson who runs the victorianlondon.org website today that I thought you might be interested in:
Merrow Street is certainly visible ...
url here (http://booth.lse.ac.uk/cgi-bin/do.pl?sub=view_booth_and_barth&m.l=0&m.d.l=0&m.p.x=9447&m.p.y=9063&m.p.w=500&m.p.h=309&m.p.l=1&m.t.w=128&m.t.h=80&b.p.x=16218&b.p.y=13037&b.p.w=500&b.p.h=309&b.p.l=2&b.v.x=264&b.v.y=105)
a poor street, but not terrible. You can see the comments on the area here
http://booth.lse.ac.uk/notebooks/b365/jpg/117.html
This is where Mary Griffin was when Charles Davies Mynn was a baby in 1881[ed]
I wouldn't read anything into the distance particularly. As for baby farmers, my impression is that by the 1870s they would not be used by workhouses in the same way as in Oliver Twist. Workhouses and parish authority were becoming more professional, I think. See http://www.loyno.edu/~history/journal/1989-0/haller.htm for the legislative moves against the practice in the 1870s. Rather, baby-farmers advertised in the press and quietly "cared for" or disposed off infants that were an encumbrance or an embarassment to their parent, especially illegitimate children. So, if your grandfather was a nurse child with a baby-farmer, he was probably sent there directly by his mother.
However, there is no need to see a sinister motive here. There were women who looked after infants as a profession, and whilst some neglected them, actively or passively, there were many who looked after them properly, as well as their means allowed. My guess would be that your mother boarded at the pub, and left the baby in another woman's care. It doesn't mean that she had abandoned the child entirely. Pub hours were very long, in any case, so I wouldn't assume that she lived at the pub either - she may have just been there during the census - but perhaps still left her child with another woman, as she hadn't time to look after him during working hours. It may be nothing more than a full-time nursery place, as it were. Were there other children at the address during the census? That will give some idea, I suppose. The fewer children, I guess the less likely to be a neglectful "baby-farmer"!
Sounds like she was a nice ol' foster mum as Charles Davies is the only nurse child listed in 1881 [ed]
See http://www.victorianlondon.org/publications3/newtoilers-19.htm on barmaids ... it wasn't a very respectable job but
"the girls prefer this life to domestic service. They think it more "genteel" to be a barmaid than a servant."
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How interesting, particularly the poverty map, I had never seen that before. I agree it certainly does feel like he was looked after by his foster family, I just wonder where he was in 1901 ::)
Jenny
P.S Glad I could help ;)
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Hmmm......thought I'd check the foster sister in 1901........but yet again no Charles ::)
Alice Mary Hooker m. James Soper Mar Q 1899 Wandsworth, London
1901 - 2a Alivett Street, Putney, St Mary's, Wandsworth, London
James Soper Head M 44yrs road sweeper b. Kings??, Hants
Alice Mary Soper Wife M 39yrs b. Walworth
Ernest James Soper Son 13yrs b. Putney, Surrey
William Henry Soper Son 11yrs b. Putney, Surrey
Nellie Hooker Step-dau 12yrs b. Walworth
Where is he hiding??
Jenny
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I really have no idea, it's so strange the way that he's disappeared like that.
I don't understand it, and I can't think of anyone else he would have been with.
Unless Clara survived that terrible period in her life and they still knew each other?
Maybe she got married?
Hm. Thanks again for your help.
I thought you might be interested in some other findings I've made, less of a census look up - more of a trying-to-figure out what happened thread, the story is here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=249539.msg1375518#msg1375518
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I don't know how you'd be able to investigate this, but I wonder whether Charles's absence in 1901 might be due to service in the Boer War. Perhaps worth a speculative post on the Armed Forces board?
Anna
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That's true. I don't know if he did military service, but it's worth looking into. Thanks for the idea. :)
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Just had a thought...what is the exact date on the birth cert in 1901? Presumably he would have to be in the country to apply for a birth cert? I wonder what prompted ordering the certificate? Do you need it for military service, as it is a little too early for his wedding in 1903 I think, unless they were engaged for a long time :-\
Had a look at the other topic too, interesting theory, hope for your sake it is not true :'(
I think the middle name "Davies" as you say may be Clara giving us a clue though.
Jenny
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The certificate was ordered on the 6th December 1901.
He was born on May 3rd 1879 and the birth was registered May 28th 1879 in the district of Kennington 1st in the County of Surrey (Lambeth).
:)
Hope everyone doesn't mind me asking for advice on this :S I get a bit conscious about making posts but having someone elses' eyes to look over things has helped thus far :)
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So way past census time, so presumably if he did need it for military service he wouldn't have left till after Dec 1901, and therefore would be on the census earlier in the year ::)
Maybe he travelled? I have lots of missing rellies on census returns but alas they are all mariners!!
He has me stumped!
Jenny
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I'd be surprised if birth certificates were required for military service at that time - there are countless examples of young men lying about their age when enlisting for WW1. And, as you say, the timing doesn't fit.
I'd be more inclined to think that upon turning 21 he wanted to find out about his real mother - it took him a little while to order the certificate, but perhaps he was out of the country or otherwise indisposed at the time. Pure speculation of course...
Anna
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Good point, maybe he was in hospital or something...they have a terrible knack of just recording initials or have very scant detail......
A thought at least
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That's completely possible, it's just quite strange. His foster mother knew who his mother was (presumably) as his real name is on the 1881 census. She is still alive in 1901, so I'd think he could have asked her for at least a little information.
It is very odd alright.
I thought it could have been for a passport, but considering he was only a boot finisher when he got married and the foster family weren't exactly minted, I don't think he would have had a lot of money to travel for luxury purposes.
Grr he's got me confused, there are so many mysteries surrounding this man! We'll dig them up yet!
It would be worth having a look at hospital records. I'll have a look and see which hospitals were in the vicinity at the time :)
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There's King's College Hospital, Lambeth Hospital and St. Thomas' Hospital, Guy's Hospital by the looks of it, more info to come....
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Had a quick glance thru the 1901 for CDM or CM but none seem to fit, age wise or location wise in the hospitals and lynatic assylums, same when I looked for CG or CDG.... the plot thickens!
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Did find this tho:
1901 - 10 Sears Street, Camberwell, London (RG13; Piece: 494; Folio: 90; Page: 54)
Charles Jones Head Wid 67yrs Painter? b. Derbyshire
Charles Griffin Visitor S 21yrs Cartman? b. Lambeth, London
It is hard to make out the occupations, but may be a possibility :-\
Also it was in the index as Griffen
Jenny
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Ooh that's interesting! Will go to have a look now.
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I've just found that too - think he was a carman..
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Looked in 1891 for Charles Jones, and he is with wife and family as a house decorator, no visitors or names of interest though!
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Very interesting, he's in the right area, born in the right place, in around the right year.
Could well be him.
Does anyone know about being a carman at that time? Just he's a boot finisher in 1903 and I can't see an immediate correlation between the two careers, so was it a transient occupation?
Again, THANK YOU everyone, you're the best!
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Found this reference:
Carman/Charman/Carrier/
Carter/Cartman
Driver of (horse-drawn) vehicles for transporting goods. Carmen were often employed by railway companies for local deliveries and collections of goods and parcels. Modern day van driver. Also sometimes someone who drove horse-drawn trams was called a Carman.
So maybe transient
Jenny
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My partner says...
her great grand-father was William Parker De Morley Mynn, her grandfather was Charles William De Mynn, born in Nottingham. She understood that he had left his wife and had a son in later in Nottingham, without first getting divorced.
She will try to find out further details from her mother (who may post on here, once she sees the link).