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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: ovas on Friday 27 July 07 07:53 BST (UK)
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Hi , I am searching for any info on Leonard Williams ,d,o,b 1881 d,o,d november 1930 & wed at Battersea 1900.Trying to find any info he may use another first nav! but is a Traveller with true Rom connections by marriage.
I know he spent most of his time in or around London but does connect with Rom from Mitchamcommon.
Any help would be great!
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Think I found him:
NorthWest Battersea, 1901
Either Gurlings Yard of Gunlings Yard
Leonard Williams Head of House, 19, married, Hawker born Kilburn.
Sarah Ann Williams wife 19 married, born Mitcham Sy
They are with several other Romany families who may well be related so Ill list them here:
Henry Williams Head 30 married, Hawker born Croydon
Annie Williams Wife 29 married born Tunbridge Wells
Frederick Williams visitor 3 born Southfields Lancs
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Charles Williams Head 70 married Hawker born Andover Hants
Elizabeth Williams Wife 43 married born Norwood
Lucane? Williams daughter 15 born Willesden
Patience Williams daughter 5 born Wandsworth
They are camped with several families of the Penfold name.
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Mitcham Common, Surrey 1881
In a tent
Charles Williams Head Married 44, Hawker born Andover
Mary A Williams Wife Married 44, Hawker born Basingstoke
Elizabeth Williams dtr 18 born Winchester
Henry Williams son 10 born Croydon
Ada Williams dtr 7 born Hanworth Mx
Phoebe Williams dtr, 3 born Hanworth, Mx
large romany camp there in 1881.
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Great stuff thank you so much for this.
Now let me try to get my head around it to see whats next.
Respect to you!
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Most welcome :)
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Sorry to be a paine ! any ideas as to whare Leonards family is during the 1891 cen?
LUCK to all.
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No. Looked for Henry Charles and Leonard seperately and couldnt find any of them. Many Romanies managed to miss census's though, so its not uncommon, and by the likelihood, they were still travelling together since none seem to be around.
Sorry bout that, if Id have found them, would have included them.
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Yes I did kinda think something like that. So thank you any way for your time & effort.
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Welcome.
Ill have another nose around later if I get some free time (its ma birthday today!! hahaha)
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Well Happy Birthday !!!!!! :)
Take time & celibrate ;D
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Hi
have I spoken with you before if not please get in contact anyway. this is my mums grandparents Leonard Williams & sarah ann Miller . I have alot of info but need to be confirmed on the williams side alos have some picturers
look forward to your email Groovyachivrall@btinternet.com
cheers annette
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Glad you made it here annette :)
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Didnt get the chance to do anymore research due to birthday celebrations, had a great time, and now back to normality :)
I shall go and have a nose about and see what I can find :D
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This might be Charles?
Red Lion Lane, Farnham, Hants 1851
Richard Williams 48 Cattle Dealer b. Andover
Harriett Williams 49
B. Williams son 20 Cattle Dealer b. Andover
Ann Williams daughter 19 Lace Bonnet Maker b. Andover
Charles Williams son 16 (looks like) sl or fl house b.Andover
Hannah Williams dtr 12 (looks like) sl or fl house b.Andover
John Williams son 11 servant frm b.Andover
William Williams son 6 Scholar b. Andover
This is the only other reference for a Charles Williams b.circa 1830 at Andover. However there are quite a few Charles Williams who only list their place of birth as in the county of Hampshire, so this "evidence" remains circumstantial in my book at the moment.
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I was looking at that but it looks like William Williams changed his name to James along the way he was living at Cawday St with wife Elizabeth ( Gurry ) still trying to work that name out . This address is on Leonard 1881 birth cert but father is called William
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Do you know OVAS will he get in touch also
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BINGO got them on 1891 census
They are listed as William not Williams on Ancestry.
Caravan, Donovans Yard, Battersea 1891
Charles Williams head 47 Horse Dealer b.Andover Hants
Mary Ann Williams wife 47 licensed Hawker b.Winchester Hants
Phoebe Williams dtr 13 Hanworth Mx
Henry Williams son 21 Mitcham Sy
Samuel Williams son 16 Willesden London
Ada Williams dtr 16 Hanworth Mx
Caroline Williams gdtr 8 Acton
There is a large group of travellers in Caravans at this place.
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I dont know Ovas, but Im sure they will reply once they come online.
Thats interesting about Leonards birth certificate - hmmm and the name changes - not uncommon in Rom research.
I shall wander off and have another nose....
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I do have a photo of Leonard & Sarah with Henry and Annie we think tried to post it will not let me keeps coming up error
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the one at Donavans yard id the family of Henry which we think are cousins they were living together in the 1901 census I have follow Henry forward and spoken to descendants. It Leonard parents we just cant get any leads to confirm info is true
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it isnt proving easy over here either! cant seem to get a result at the moment.
If the address is right for Leonards birth, and his father is named alternatively as William and James, I would suspect a name change and as I said, not uncommon. Shame I cant seem to get a lead on William/James though grrr
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census 1891 leonard c williams if you look up Rose gurry and then census 1881 James 1835 you find cawday st one son Edwin is there and still there in1891 . cenus 1871 he is down as Wm Williams
its just so difficult as they were all ducking and diving all the time to make a living
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ah yes found them now.
I have to go off and do "stuff" for a bit - will be back later on :)
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instead of the nav Gurry perhaps its gurney ,This lot Romerd with the smiths & Bowers & resulted in both posh rats & didikies as well as 100% Roms.
Leave no stone unturned."
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are you related to Leonard williams 1881 and sarah miller 1882 as you were asking after them
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Latcho divvus Annette no we share no Rat"
JUST having a dik on akai to help a kako
If i find ill share
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I have been trying to find his parents, have looked into Gurney there was a Richard williams married to a elizabeth gurney his grandfather was called richard could he have called himself that name. millers side know all them OK I know romany .
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I am grateful of any help its driving me mad he must have had a few brother & sisters somewhere
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not granda father, father was called richard
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AN65 Yep I do believe you have the true family .Havin compared the 4 cens you posted it looks to me like chas,ada & phoebe is the only p,o,b that remain constant most other details change about between each cen As you would partially expect .Aswell as the 1891 cen showing 2 kids as twins yet these or any of the other generations dont show any more twins.
Personally my conclusion is that Sam is very likley to be Len .It is so like other familys of this type & time, Constantly trying to avoid giving any details to the governments IT.may be the closet to the truth that can be found
THANKS FOR YOUR TIME
Av akai Annettechivrall putcha a chai/chavi /Rauni? Nanti gajikano
the info is tatcho.
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I have just read your reply which if true this will change thing s can I ask you would Leonard have lied about his age when marrying he states he is 19 yrs same as his bride but does look older in fact he would have been 25
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Yea sure he would
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strange that few navs go down the line of this crowd
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BINGO got them on 1891 census
They are listed as William not Williams on Ancestry.
Caravan, Donovans Yard, Battersea 1891
Charles Williams head 47 Horse Dealer b.Andover Hants
Mary Ann Williams wife 47 licensed Hawker b.Winchester Hants
Phoebe Williams dtr 13 Hanworth Mx
Henry Williams son 21 Mitcham Sy
Samuel Williams son 16 Willesden London
Ada Williams dtr 16 Hanworth Mx
Caroline Williams gdtr 8 Acton
There is a large group of travellers in Caravans at this place.
There seems to be some children missing here my great great grandmother Mary Ann she married curly Bob (not sure if real name but was what he was called) Penfold she died in 1950 in Battersea and is buried in Wandsworth cemetery he grave stone mentions her mother and farther
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In Wales the Williams travellers can be traced back to the Scamp family, who in moving to Wales changed their name to belend in with the locals. There are two Scamp hotspots, Devon and Kent, so easy to populate London and the south coast. Those from Devon moved to Wales, but they also bred with Lee and Boswell families. It could be those in London started as Scamps and changed to Williams.