RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Louth => Topic started by: jj.carroll on Thursday 26 July 07 19:10 BST (UK)
-
AGNES BRIDGET GAFFIGAN was born and lived in San Francisco. She was the daughter of John and Maggie (nee Crennan) GAFFIGAN, before she came to Ireland to marry my grandfather MICHAEL JOSEPH McCARROLL (sometimes known as Carroll, and it may have been his name in California). He was of the Donacavey and Clogher civil parishes, County Tyrone. They had met in San Francisco - after Michael joined his two brothers.
Agnes B. left for Ireland when she reached majority. Instead of being married in the Fintona - Eskragh - Beragh area, where Michael's family lived and they later chose to settle (after residing in Omagh at least until 1914), they were wed at St. Patrick’s Church in Dundalk, County Louth. The problem is that we don't even know if they traveled together, or where in Ireland they had landed, or even where they stayed before they left for County Tyrone.
Mickey McCARROLL and Agnes Bridget GAFFIGAN went on to Omagh, and then to Fintona, where McCARROLL was to establish his business and became a publican/auctioneer/seller of shoes and coffins at their public house on Main Street in Fintona (the pub owned by the late Mr. Francis McAtee).
Michael and Agnes had a number of children, including my father: MICHAEL JOSEPH, b. 25 March 1914 in Omagh; PATRICK EUGENE, b. 1915, who passed away after three days; MARY CATHERINE (who became Maura when she migrated to the USA), 1917 and passed away in 2004; THOMAS LEO, b. 1918; BERNADETTE ANTHONY, b. 1919; and, KEVIN BARRY, b. 1921. All of these siblings had returned to the States in 1924 with their mother, after the passing of Michael Joseph McCarroll.
This has been a mystery to me (and perhaps a mystery to others in my family) but it does seem quite funny. The two of them went to Ireland to get married, and ended up in Dundalk - before the partition so that was not the reason. Dundalk would seem to be half way point to Dublin, but then why would they land, or at least, she would land there from the States when they would seem more likely to come ashore at Moville.
In those days marriage was strictly regulated for Catholics and while both were of the age, it raises a number of questions, such as why not Armagh, or the Clogher cathedral in Monaghan if they were not to be married around Fintona or Beragh?
And it would raise a question about the location of St. Patrick’s in Eskra, where Michael’s family resided. Michael's family appears to be closely associated with that chapel and now is a parish in its own right. What and how were the banns posted for this marriage? How long had they been in Ireland, and did they wait the requisite time?
And, they may have even traveled from America to Queenstown and instead of the trip overland in Ireland they went to Liverpool. From there they may have made Dundalk their landing in Ireland. While these unanswered questions may never be known one cannot expect any answers unless the questions are asked.
-
Hiya jj.carroll,
You've posed some interesting questions. If they met in San Francisco why didn't they marry there? Why go to the trouble of returning to Ireland for their wedding when they had a number of relatives already in San Francisco? The round about route to get to Fintona, with a marriage en route in Dundalk, is a strange one.
I've linked this thread to your McCARROLL family from the Eskra - Fintona - Beragh area (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,247054.msg1355090.html#msg1355090) thread.
Christopher
-
You asked, If they met in San Francisco why didn't they marry there? I suppose that this is a rhetorical question as I am unable to answer just why they did not stay in San Francisco, get married there, and have their children there. Perhaps they did not like the earthquakes and fires.
They may have had a brother (Thomas who married Kitty Daley of Newtownsaville) in San Francisco, but the other brother Patrick (who was supposed to be a little crazy, but what the heck - he was Irish) went back and forth between Ireland and California, and very little is known of him. The rest of the siblings, and the mother and father of the groom, were in Corkhill.
Why did they not want to have the Gaffigans at their wedding? Who really knows, but it may be that the strange behavior of John Amos Gaffigan drove them away (you need to know that the Gaffigans have created a problem in its own right, and will be found on other websites - just because he was born in Scotland. And Mary Gaffigan did have two sisters, Anna and Izzy, that preceded her to San Francisco). Or it may be that Mickey did not get along with John Amos. Who knows, except for the Shadow? As they say, Da Shadow do...)
Perhaps he suffered from something that we don't know about, or made his money in California and wanted to spend it where his family was (you must remember, the Man of the house was the king in those days). Maybe, just maybe, someone in the McCusker family passed away and left a legacy for Mickey (he had a brother in law that also purchased a public house in Omagh about that time - and another brother in law purchased one about that same time in Curr).
The round-about route that they took (and we still don't know where they were at this time, even to the ship that they sailed upon) is indeed strange, but hopefully someone would have an answer to some of these questions - particularly, St. Patrick's in Dundalk where the banns had to be posted.
And, we don't know that they took the same route. He was in Beragh before he got married - and nothing was said about both of them being there...
It may very well have been that he preceded her to his home in Ireland and Aggie B. being the strong-minded person that she was decided that she wanted to marry Mickey, and to hell with all of her crazy siblings and mother and dad. (But she had to get the passage money? Now where was that!)
This was the reason that I posted the query in the first place. To see if there were more answers than there were questions.
-
JJ,
Do you know the name of the priest who conducted the marriage service? When did the marriage take place at St. Patrick’s Church in Dundalk? If you don't know the priest's name maybe the marriage was reported in a Dundalk paper. It's possible they wanted a specific person to conduct the service and for some reason had to go to his church.
Christopher
-
The only thing that I can go on is the marriage registration.
All of the parties are deceased (and I am the oldest surviving one), and I just would like to unravel the whole mess.
It took place on 29 July 1912, and the parties were: Michael McCarroll, at full age, and his condition was Bachelor. His rank or profession was Merchant, and the residence at the time of the marriage was Beragh (County Tyrone), and his father was Owen McCarroll, deceased. His father was a farmer (from Corkhill, in Tyrone). Agnes B. Gaffigan was full age and a spinster, from San Francisco. Her father was John Gaffigan, and he was a painter (actually, a printer - but the certificate gives it as a painter which he dabbled in).
It took place in the Catholic Church of St. Patrick Dundalk (and I have been there many times trying to get someone to give me the time of day, but to no avail). It was signed by R. Lyons, adm. (I take it that he was a pastor, or chief priest of the congregation, not knowing the practices of the Irish). The witnesses were John "Gregan" (and that is NOT Gaffigan, the "g" is reversed and there is only one), and Mary Margaret Hamill.
I contacted the Bishop who assisted in getting me to the Parish by way of the internet. I have had a response, but must wait a while for the person who has either been sick is replaced or the archivist that does the history of St. Patrick's. I have been persistent, knowing full well that it may be a useless task - but one that I will go to my grave trying to figure it out. In fact, it is about time to bug them some more to see how the archivist is doing.
Actually, I don't think it has anything to do with your later remarks about a specific person because there was never anything said about that church. The names of the witnesses do not ring a bell, and I really had to work about the Gaffigan because her father was John Amos Gaffigan. Had to find out by a search, and then I found the marriage registration that my father got in 1975. Then I asked some questions, and while Aggie had already passed on, the answers from my aunt were unsatisfactory. (And it did not happen in the Irish Free State, as it was in 1912! Joshing you...)
-
Tony posted this on another thread:
"... (By) the way, there was an Agnes Gaffigan who arrived at Queenstown, 26-july-1912,aged 23,aboard the White Star Line ship "Celtic". Her occupation looks something like stenographer,the word ends with grapher anyway."
This may answer some of the problems we have had in trying to reconstruct my grandparents' background.
I wonder, however, did she sail with Michael Joseph Carroll (as he was then known in America) or McCarroll, the name he was born with.
Ship's manifests sometimes contain interesting things, like the derivation of the person giving his/her status. In this case, Agnes Bridget Gaffigan (if she is the one we are searching for) was American-born, having come from San Francisco. Michael was Irish-born and had taken American citizenship in San Francisco.
If this was Agnes and Mickey, they got married three days later up in Dundalk.
;D Thanks Tony
-
The banns of all marriages at this time would have been posted in the parish church of ireland ( anglican ) I believe, even for catholics
-
While I do not know if the banns of marriage were posted in Anglican parishes, not at the Roman Catholic churches that they were parishioners of, I do believe that you may have somehow missed the mark on this one.
Mickey or Michael McCarroll was originally from the Eskra parish in County Tyrone. He left for California around 1896, was naturalized as a U.S. citizen, and then returned to County Tyrone after his health failed him. He left behind in San Francisco two brothers who had immigrated, and one remained. He may have been in Beragh or Omagh, but he was to locate in Main Street in the town of Fintona, County Tyrone.
Where was he a parishioner at the time of his marriage? It wasn't Dundalk.
Agnes B. Gaffigan was born in San Francisco, California and never was a parishioner in Ireland before she was married.
She either followed Michael Joseph Carroll or came over at the same time, on the same ship (but we can't locate a record of his sailing). And we can't locate any definitive information on how they came to be in Dundalk.
But we do know that she landed in Queenstown (the name at that time) aboard the White Star line "Celtic", and she married Michael at St. Patrick's in Dundalk, County Louth, on July 29 1912.
While it may be that some banns were posted in Anglican Churches for Roman Catholics, I am not sure that this would be a fruitfull direction to turn to in locating how they married and if the banns for that marriage were posted.
-
If banns were not issued , then a marriage could be held by licence 1836 act. This document only stated that a marriage was allowed to take place and was not usually kept. Usually the marriage certificate will say by licence or after banns.
-
aberjed,
What I am wondering is just what it is that you are saying. I am rather confused by your commentary because what we know is what is on these pages. Agnes somehow or other went to Ireland to be wed to Michael (my grandparents). We do not know just when, or how, or what - only that they were wed at St. Patrick's in Dundalk, and Agnes was not pregnant so that is not the reason for the marriage there.
We don't know if there were banns; but with Catholics at that time they were usually posted. So we don't know, and I have tried to find out these things from St. Patrick's - even going there in 1982 and again about ten years after that first time. Then I tried to get them to respond, going through the Bishop - but to no avail. So we don't know if they were issued or held by licence, nor what document you refer to about the marriage that was allowed to take place.
We do have that marriage registration certificate, only that there was a registration that took place and we received a copy - but it does not tell if it was by licence or after banns. It was issued by the GRO and it is a Form A of the Registration of Marriages Act of 1863. Although there were witnesses (John "Gagan" and Mary Margaret "Hamell"), we have no idea of who they were or what was their status.
:'( So, if I am a bit confused over what you posted, you might want to clarify just what it is that you would like to share with us. I have shared what we know, except the things that we have attempted to ascertain involving that marriage. As you can tell, we have butted up against brick walls but they have a way of falling apart over time, brick by brick. :o
-
The banns of all marriages at this time would have been posted in the parish church of ireland ( anglican ) I believe, even for catholics
Actually, I believe this is incorrect. Banns are called in the parish (C. of I.) church of each party where it is a C. of I. marriage even if one party isn't C. of I.
-
After a long absence I am rejoining the board. As a rather old man, I am a bit slower on the uptake and will probably not answer as fully as I have in the past.
I would like to answer one such general question with some of the roots that also been disturbed.
The question was why did the marriage take place here in Ireland when both of the parties were located in San Francisco, California? Not being party to this marriage I can only speculate, but with some more understanding that I had before.
Let us assume for a moment that Mickey (what Michael was called) was already here in northern Ireand. He may have been visiting his mother and siblings that were not in The City (what San Francisco is called); he may also have been called back due to the illness of his brother Patrick. There are many reasons why he could have been around Ireland at that time. There has never been a definitive statement that the two of them were together prior to their marriage.
We need to address one of the brothers, that have been silent until now. Patrick was a rather strange one, and there were stories about him. But, he did travel back and forth between Eskrah and the City. We do know that Patrick's moniker was "The Yank." Mickey's other brother Thomas took up a calling as a grocer and was quite successful. And Mickey evidently was successful in his own right, but we know little of his background in The City. However, we do know that he took up citizenship and there is a record of that (but I won't be bothering the board with the details). It was a given that these McCarroll boys got to know the Gaffigans, especially a certain Agnes Bridget.
We can also assume that in their travels back and forth there is a record in 1908 of the arrival of Michael Joseph McCarroll (a possible error by the transcriber, had the age a bit off). He was known then as a "saloon keeper." This was of the arrival in Liverpool or Moville.
We do know that a Patrick McCarroll passed away in 1912 because his gravestone is close to the family plot in Eskragh, County Tyrone. But we know little or nothing about his demise.
Now the timing is the thing here. If Michael was here because of the sickness (we just don't know, having to assume it might be) it may be that the timing was such that Mickey took over his brother's interest and could not go back to San Francisco. While we can assume that might be the case, we just do not know. There are many different things that a bit of research might uncover.
But, it does fit in form Agnes Bridget's trip to Ireland to marry Michael J. McCarroll.
This board did raise, by implication, some of the questions that have questionable answers that have been opined here. Until we are offered differing answers, with more data behind them, the death of Patrick and the marriage of Mickey and Agnes makes a lot of sense, giving that the two things occurred in 1912.
jj.carroll
-
The marriage
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1912/09922/5606988.pdf
the priest was R Lyons Adm or possibly the Rev Lyons most likely the Rev Patrick Lyons
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Louth/Dundalk_Urban_No__4/Francis_St__S__Side/578542/
the 1st witness was John Grogan he appears to have been the Sacristan
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Louth/Dundalk_Urban_No__4/St__Mary_s_Terrace/578989/
-
;D Thank you very much. We could not get this originally. It was a nice thing that you attempted to obtain the witnesses, and Mr. Grogan resides nearly next door and your observation that he was a sacristan is probably right on. The second witness, Mary Margaret (Od)mile, really was lost in attempting to use her last name.
I would have liked to attempt to make something of it, but could not interpret the first two letters.
It was significant that Michael McCarroll gave as his residence at that time the town of Beragh. Mr. P. J.McClean of Beragh did describe relatives living in Curr (very close to Beragh). It was the daughter Mary, one of four children of Owen McCarroll and Bridget Conroy. Owen was anohter son of Owen McCarroll and Catherine McCusker. Mary married Jack Donnelly.
P.J. McClean did provide some information on the Carrolls of that district.
However, there was another Carroll that owned the public house in Curr; I believe it may have been Owen who made some significant purchases of property. This was identified as 23a and 25, a licensed house, shop, and post office. I met with some people at the pub in 1982, but have no recollection of the meeting.
:-\ Someone in that region around Beragh was a counselor.
Again, thank you for this work you have done. It begins to shed a little light on my grandparents.
jjc
-
??? We have the marriage license of Michael Joseph McCarroll and Agnes Bridget Gaffigan. It was issued in Dundalk County Louth, 29 July 1912.
:-\ We seem to believe (because there are various degrees a assurance, like manifests) that the two did not travel together, that Mickey was in Ireland at the time that Agnes came over and landed in County Cork.
:o We have as an address that Micky was living at that time in Beragh when they married.
:P We have them at Georges Street in Omagh soon after (or maybe not so soon) because my father was born two years later at that address.
And we have them domiciled in Fintona, County Tyrone, where they had a public house, shoe store under the stairs, a horse auctioneer, and a cabinet maker (who made caskets). They lived upstairs and stayed there until Michael J. McCarroll passed away in 1924.
What we seem to be missing ??? is the time between staying in Beragh and going to Omagh. We have his nephew Charles working or owning a public house on the main street in downtown Omagh. Had Michael owned a public house in Omagh, which he sold to take up one in Fintona? He had the cash from San Francisco to be able to purchase a public house but we have no actual knowledge of that. It would make some sense for him to want to be near his mother in the Fintona area, especially since Michael had arrived. But we are speculating. :D
Datha got our juices rising, but we still have a brick wall to over come.
-
:-[ We have to eliminate Patrick's death as a "cause" for Michael McCarroll's staying in Ireland.
The official record noted that a Michael McCarroll was present at his demise, and indicated that it was his brother. The death took place in June, 1912. I finally went back and although it was a timely death, his age was given as 50; and the cause was tuberculous as. The timing was correct, in that the sickness was over a three month period. But our Patrick was only 39, having been born in 1973.
jjc ::)
-
I dont think the Patrick who died 1912 is your family
he died at Mount Stewart
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1912/05357/4493048.pdf
1901 at Mount Stewart with his mother Anne (possibly Anne McKenna )
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tyrone/Aghintain/Mount_Stewart/1726655/
1902 Patrick McCarroll of Mount Stewart son of Patrick McCarroll married Bridget Early
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1902/10284/5743074.pdf
1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tyrone/Aghintain/Mount_Stewart/856435/
1889 Michael McCarroll of Mount Stewart son of Patrick McCarroll married Mary Anne Moore
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1889/10723/5909788.pdf
1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tyrone/Draughton/Lisnacreeve/1743107/
1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tyrone/Draughton/Lisnacreeve/871769/
cant quite make out the address on Patrick's death cert that Michael has given as informant looks like Tilnacrieve to me but perhaps someone with better knowledge of the area may read this and tell you if its the same place.
-
This development, having all of the records, really locked it down. The Mount Stewart thing with his mother was very final for our Patrick.
I spent some time looking for him, and his possible death. I drew a blank, even going to San Francisco where his brother Thomas was located (and doing well, I would say). But no Patrick around then. At least in the public records.
That puts us back to the reasoning of why Michael McCarroll was a resident of this area.
Beragh and Curr is near Greenmont. That Bed n' Breakfast was equally away from Eskragh and Corkhill to Fintona. It was a very nice area when I was staying at Greenmont.
Thank you dathai, confirmation is a great thing!