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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Kirkcudbrightshire => Topic started by: kay11 on Friday 20 July 07 16:16 BST (UK)
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Can a kind person help?
I am looking for the marriage of James Carlile to Mcdowall ( at this stage I do not know my ancestor's christian name).
The marriage may not have been in Kirkmabreck but elsewhere in Scotland it would have taken place between 1846 - 1850 as their child also James Carlile appears on census 1851 Creetown aged 2 years.
I would be very very grateful for any help my thanks in anticipation
K
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Hi Kay
I'll have a look around for you but in the meantime, here's a photo of Kirmabreck new Kirk taken 2 weeks ago :)
Gadget
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So far neither a marriage or a birth of a james Carlile (various spellings) or a James McDowall
On the 1861 he appears to be with his other grandparents at
Bells, Wynd, Creetown 873 Ed 6 page 16
James Carlyle, 63, granite Quarry worker*, b. Ireland
Ann, 63, wife, b. Ireland
Peter, 24, son, granite quarry worker, b. Ireland
Daniel, 21, son, granite quarry worker, b. Ireland
James, 11, granson, scholar, b. Creetown
It might be worth checking the 1841 to check the McDowall family - a daughter might be identified. Also, as the Carlile family where from ireland, they might be Roman Catholic and any marriage, baptism would not appear in the easily available records.
I'll keep looking around.
Gadget
* see also my photo of the Creetown Granite monument on this board :)
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In 1841n the McDowall family are at St Johns Street, Creetown
873 ED 8 Page 8
Agnes McDowall, 35-39, Pauper
Janet, 13,
James, 10
Isabella, 7
Agnes, 4
John, 6
All born County
One of these daughters might well be James's mother
Gadget
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Kay
Have you followed him through the censuses to find out if he married and/or died in Scotland. This would give you (hopefully) his mother's name.
I haven't found any records of a marriage or baptism yet and there is the possibility that they might not have been married :-\
Gadget
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Gadget
Very many thanks amazing response !
I've been on the hunt for James Carlile's mother it seems for an age .....!
Re 1841 census
Believe Janet married Fergus Skimming (what a name) though surprisingly I've been unable to find anything about this family.. Agnes is on the 1851 census and is too young to be James mother so from the 1841 census the only daughter available is Isabella whom I cannot find at all i.e death , marriage etc. That is not to say that other daughters born earlier don't exist ....
When you quote the 1841 census are you looking at the original doc ?? or the transcribed listing ? I have found many a error (transcribed) ! I have a feeling that christian names may be incorrect
I note the RC element any suggestions about finding more info?
Also many thks for the photo I stood there myself in May a very pleasant spot indeed! K
ps Just got your latest posting. James moved to Liverpool pre 1871 were he marries and then totally disappears I have been unable to find his death and have looked really hard ! His widow and daughter are on the 1891 and 1901 census.
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When you quote the 1841 census are you looking at the original doc ?? or the transcribed listing ? I have found many a error (transcribed) ! I have a feeling that christian names may be incorrect
It was the original image. I don't trust indexes very much either :)
It's a shame about marriage/and no death found :(
Gadget
PS - not sure about the RC records for that area :-\
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Hi Kay
Gadget helped me too some few months ago with information about my family.
My gtx2 grandmother, living at Creetown, was married in Anwoth Parish and we thought it was at the old kirk there. However, she was actually married according to the Rites of the Roman Catholic Church at Gatehouse of Fleet in a private residence. Apparently according to a local historian, this house was known as the Catholic House and both persons married gave this address as their existing address.
I eventually found their marriage certificate on Scotlandspeople dated 1855, which gave me loads of information about their particulars.
I don't know if this information will help you at all but I hope so.
Regards,
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Ankerdine
That's good news thank you - I'll do some further investigation..
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Hi Kay
Your main problem is the date of any marriage :( Official registration did not start in Scotland until 1855 so you're reliant on the Old Parish Records or other RC, etc. records being available.
Gadget
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Gadget
Thanks again - believe the marriage was around 1847/ 48 and so I take your point.
Can you please advise what source you used when you searched for the marriage between James Carlile & ? McDowall together with deaths was it e.g. scotlandspeople?
K
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Hi Kay
I checked in all the available collections, including Scotland's People, BIVRI and the IGI.
Have you found James Carlile (various spellings) who possibly married a McDowall on any censuses or records? Did they have any other children? Such answers might help you decide whether there was a marriage or not.
Regards
Gadget
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Gadget - you are a STAR ....thk u.
No is the answer to your question....the ONLY piece of evidence I have is the 1851 census were James Carlile aged 2 is with his grandmother Agnes McDowall.
I surmised that a marriage took place as James adopts the surname of Carlile rather than McDowall. I believe James's parents died and this is why he in 1861 is with his paternal grandparents aged 11. I knw his father was also James and that he was a Stone Mason probably working at Creetown quarry he was deceased in 1871 upon James's marriage in Liverpool.
Did any of your sources pick up a Daniel or Peter Carlile - they were brothers of James.....
K
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I think there might have been a Daniel.
Kay - don't go on children's surnames to assume a marriage. Many children there and then were given the name of the father, if it was known, regardless of whether a marriage had taken place or not. I found an unmarried woman with children who had various surnames when doing a look up recently.
It might be worth you checking on SP after 1855 to see if any of the McDowalls or Carlile's married 'according to the forms of the Roman Catholic Church'.
Gadget
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OK Gadget ..I'll take a look ....happy hunting!
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Hello Kay
Have you seen the baptism of Ann McDowall, 14th September 1823, Kirkmabreck to Samuel McDowall and Agnes McKean. Also an Agnes 24th January 1837 to the same couple. The Scotland's people site may have more of the children as the online IGI is not always complete. al This suggests that the McDowall's were unlikely to be RC and that Samuel died mid 1836 - 1841. No Carli(s)les are listed.
There is also the marriage of a Samuel Dowall to Elizabeth Craig in 1836. This Samuel might well be Agnes and Samuel's son as there are baptisms for their children (as McDowall).
A further point: what was the occupation of James, snr, on James, jnr's marriage cert.?
Regards
Gadget
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The Carlyles appear to have moved to Creetown between 1841 and 1851. In 1841 there is only one James Carlyle/Carlile/Carlisle in KKD, b. Ireland, a labourer, and he was born circa 1802-1806. This might be James (grandfather) who came over before the rest of the family. It's very hard to tell.
GAdget
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Thks G ....yes I'm aware of Ann c1823 (I've traced her marriage and life up until 1901) and Agnes c1837 and whilst I was in the area in May I visited Dumfries and the record office managed to track down the above but was dismayed not to find any other siblings i.e. those that appear on the 1841 census. I can only surmise that because the legal requirement of registration didn't exist until 1855 then some births were not registered Interesting that you have turned up a Samuel McDowall marriage in 1836 I missed that one! I'll see what more I can find out..
You point out that Samual McDowall senior probably died 1836 - 1841 I too think that , however an Alexander McDowall appears aged 8 years on the 1851 census son of Agnes - a puzzle indeed... I have been unable to find Alexander thereafter...
As for the Carlile's - you mention James c1802-1806 - what area KKD ??? is he in 1841 and I take it that Ann his wife is not with him?
The Carlile's are facinating there are 3 James Carlile's
James c 1796 Ireland census 1851 - 1871 Creetown/Liverpool
James son of above c 1825 probably Ireland no census trace
James son of above c1849 Creetown census c1851- 1871 Creetown / Liverpool
James c 1825 is named upon James c1849 marriage in 1871 Liverpool he was a Stone Mason ( Deseased). James c1849 a Engineer on 1871 census and his marriage - in 1872 upon the birth of his daughter his occ Engine Fitter in 1881 his wife is alone in Liverpool and calls herself a Mariners Wife. Their is a family suggestion that James went to Sierre Leone Africa and died there ..... I have been unable to trace his death in Liverpool - by 1891 his wife states she is a widow- his death must have occured between 1881 - 1891 ...some day I'll find him !
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Hi Kay
As for the Carlile's - you mention James c1802-1806 - what area KKD
He was a labourer in Kirkcudbright itself.
Gadget
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WOW !!! Another Q are you sure that S Mc marraige in 1836 is to Elizabeth Craig ??? as I have him in 1851 with wife Mary ??? Though of course this could be a second marraige.
Any idea of his childrens names?
K
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Hi Kay
They're online on the IGI
Marriage Batch no - M118734
Baptisms Batch No - C118734
I believe that they are also on Scotlands People.
I've just checked my 1841 census notebooks and James was an ag lab at Torrs, on the coast south of Kirkcudbright but in the parish of Kirkcudbright
Gadget