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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Derry (Londonderry) => Topic started by: katefarr on Friday 20 July 07 05:56 BST (UK)
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Hi
I was wondering if anyone would be able to solve a problem for me. I have found a relation who according to one source comes from a Newton in the county Derry. She was born Sarah Jane Gordon in 1834. However I have a letter written by her mother-in-law saying she was from the county Tyrone (no town given). I can find no existence of a Newton in either county but have found a Newtownstewart in Tyrone County. Not being aware of what border changes may have occurred could this be the town I am looking for or is there a Newton that is alluding me? I would appreciate any help.
Regards
Kate
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There is a Newtown Limavady in County Derry :)
http://www.thecore.com/seanruad/cgi-bin/iresrch
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Newtownlimavady is now known simply as Limavady.
If you go into the site above and so a search for townlands beginning with 'Newton' you can see what the choices might be.
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Thanks so much for this information, I will now go and check the possibilities. I was thinking last night that perhaps there was a border change between Tyrone and Derry counties after say 1859 (when that letter was written) that would make both sources correct. The researcher (who is Australian I believe) would have had to search for records in what is now Derry but when she lived there it may have been Tyrone County??????? Is this a possiblility?
Regards Kate
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Newtownlimavady/Limavady has never been in County Tyrone.
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Thankyou for that information. I appreciate your help greatly. I guess my only real way of finding out for certain is to now check parish registers.
Regards
Kate
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I was a bit confused because you mentioned a letter and then a researcher. So there was professional research done ???
I did a bit of a search myself and I did find two Sarah Jane Gordons in the right time frame but they weren't born in 1834 but close...but not in Derry. Just curious. Who were Sarah's parents?
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Hi
I found the information regarding Sarah's name and birth place via Rootsweb - Boyd Tree's. Jane Little (nee Boyd) was the Mother-in-law of Sarah. Jane wrote the said letter. The person researching Jane and therefore Sarah was a decendant like me, I am assuming there was no professional work done as I have found many discrepancies already in the information obtained from their research. Please don't misunderstand me, I am not putting them down, I myself am not happy with maybe's, I would rather have the absolute truth than have theories. I am assuming the letter that Jane Little wrote in 1859 is correct, which states as follows:
"William is married to a girl from County Tyrone and has five sons and one daughter. I don't know what Cows and Horses he has. I know he has a good many and lives very comfortable if you write to him write Green Hill near Kyneton Port Phillip Victoria. He brought out the wife's Mother, Brother and Sister and sent to America for a Brother and Aunt. They are come out and three months."
Jane Little (nee Boyd) was born in county Armagh so I assuming she would have been proud that her eldest son had found a girl from Ireland to marry and would have gotten the county correct (but this is only my deduction - this may be completely wrong).
The reason I say I have found many discrepancies is that Jane and her husband James came to Australia with their 9 children in 1841 yet 7 of these children are reported by said researcher to have been born in Victoria, Australia. The letter also states that William and Sarah had 6 children in 1859 (when the letter was penned by Jane) but William and Sarah are recorded as being married in Mar 1855. I can find no documentation myself on the Victorian BMD website of their marriage or their children.
Sorry for the long winded answer but perhaps now you might see why I am a little confused by the information I have. Would you yourself be more inclined to believe the letter or the research????? After a little looking I have found that Sarah's parents are supposed to be a Edward and Mary Gordon, but this again is from the Boyd project.
Regards
Kate
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I guess my only real way of finding out for certain is to now check parish registers.
If by this you mean church records in Ireland you will need to know the religion and place where they lived (not just the County but at least the Parish if not the actual Townland with a common surname like Gordon). Assuming that you do find the place there is no guarantee that the church records still exist.
I do see the problem with the information you have so far and while the letter is lovely to have you would be wise to want to verify the information instead of blindly accepting everything in it.
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Hi Kate,
... The letter also states that William and Sarah had 6 children in 1859 (when the letter was penned by Jane) but William and Sarah are recorded as being married in Mar 1855. I can find no documentation myself on the Victorian BMD website of their marriage or their children. ...
It seems that you will probably do best by further searching of the Victorian BMDs and by purchasing some certificates.
Some children of William LITTLE & Sarah Jane GORDON:
*James or(?) James Edward 1856 Kyneton - there are two entries in 1856, #13547 (James Edward) and #5743 (James); not sure if these are two separate births ...
*John Gordon 1857 " - #11615
*Mary Jane 1859 " - #15127
*William 1861 Malmsbury - #22163
*Ann Elizabeth 1863 Gree. - #21458
*Sarah 1865 Malmsbury - #16568
*Margaret Louisa 1867 Malmsbury - #9225
*Emma Alice 1868 Malmsbury - #17529
Sarah Jane's death:
*Sarah Jane LITTLE (35) born DERR (presumably Derry), parents Gordon Edward & Mary, died 1869
Victorian death certificates are very informative. The certificate should say when and where William & Sarah Jane married, how long she had been in Victoria, names and ages of children, etc ...
Jane (BOYD) LITTLE:
LITTLE John & LITTLE Agnes b 1846, parents James LITTLE & Jane BOYD, Geelong (this is just a church record)
LITTLE Jane (81) died at Kyneton in 1881, parents Boyd Jno & Elizabeth
That death cert would probably be worth getting.
Certificates can be downloaded immediately from the Vic BDM site.
Good luck,
JAP
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Hi
firstly to aghadowey, religion I am sure was protestant. Yes, you are right about verifying the information, I guess I have taken the letter to much to heart (I was just so excited at finding something like that). I am trying to tie up these little problems one by one. I seem to have all very common names like Little, Boyd and Gordon, just the luck of the draw I guess. But all of the replies by everyone have been most helpful and I am thankful.
to Jap, thanks for all this information. I did look up the Vict. BMD website earlier this week and searched for any possible marriages for William but Sarah did not come up, that is why I was skeptical. Also I didn't find the children either as you did, so I must conclude that I am doing something wrong when I am searching. I already have the death certificate's of James and Jane (Boyd) Little and their son John Little. I might have another look at the website and try again and I do appreciate the information you have given me.
Regards
Kate
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Hi Kate,
Don't waste (or would spend be a less emotive word!) money on the Vic BDM site.
Lots of people on RC have access to various CDs of Vic BDMs - which make searching easier.
And do ask if would like the full reference of an entry so you can purchase a certificate without first paying for the reference.
Don't hesitate to ask.
Regards,
JAP
PS: Sarah's death cert ref is as follows (as it appears on the Victorian Pioneers CD):
LITTLE Sarah/ father Gordon Edward/ mother Mary UNKNOWN/ age 35/ birthplace DERR/ year 1869/ registration number 4514
Not sure where you are located but these CDs are usually available in public libraries in Australia and at many other locations.
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Hi Jap
I have wasted a lot of money there already, so will take your advice. I think I have taken a little too much information for granted and must go back to basics. I will try and find when William Little died and order his death certificate and that will give me a much better indication of who I am looking for. Will probably see you in the Australian lookups. Thanks so much for helping me, I have only been at this 5 months and am learning something new everyday.
Regards
Kate
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Hi Kate,
I didn't see William's death in the Pioneers index. I don't have access to the Federation Index and haven't yet tried the Edwardian. I'm off now but I'm sure someone will find him for you before I try again.
I had a bit of a look for the rells of Sarah but no luck - will try more carefully tomorrow.
I'm sure you'll get lots of help on the Oz lookups board. Incidentally, do give a link to this thread so people aren't duplicating lookups which have already been done, or advice which has already been given ...
All the very best,
JAP
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Have you done a parent search on IGI? Based on parents Edward Gordon and Mary (although some of the foregoing threads refer to Gordon Edward, so forgive me if I am looking at the wrong person), it turns up 3 children born in Drumachose, Londonderry. These being a Sally Jane Gordon christened (therefore quite possibly born in 1834) on 24/1/1835 (in my own family research, I have found Sally and Sarah interchangeable as first names), James Mitchell Gordon christened 29/3/1837 and a Robert Gordon born 19/1/1839. Drumachose would have been situated in NewtownLimavady/Limavady.
Although IGI is not always reliable, these are extracted rather than user submitted records, so I would have more confidence in them.
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Hi Scotmum
Please excuse my ignorance but was is IGI and how can I access the information there? I am fairly new to searching outside Australia (having completed this first). The information you have provided fits with the information I have concerning Sarah. Thank you so much for your help.
Regards
Kate
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IGI means International Genealogical Index and can be found at this link. (http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=igi/search_IGI.asp&clear_form=true)
The Sally I found is, in my opinion, a strong contender given the year, parents names, and Drumachose lies in the right 'Newtown...' area.
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There is also Newtonards in Northern Ireland.
You cannot go on what is posted even on the IGI, Census or any other site, there are many errors due to human being being involved in processing them.
Accents, abbreviations, nicknames all come to mind.
http://www.travelpublishing.co.uk/CountyIntros/NorthernIrelandIntro.htm
This may help with place names.
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I did say IGI can not always be relied on, but having done much research in Scotland/England/Ireland over the years, and having used IGI in conjunction with other sources, it often proves to be a very effective starting point and many times, hits the nail on the head. All research sources can be subject to human error, such is life, but if we didn't work with them and around them, we would probably find it much harder to do our research and many sources provide excellent results.
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Hi
I have just found Sarah's immigration records to Victoria, Australia. She was 19 years old in Jun 1854 when she travelled out on the ship Hilton (not sure which port she left from). So the dates fit with her birth year and she apparently was born in January. She travelled with a Marjory Gordon aged 27 and two children Margaret (aged 2) and Elizabeth Gordon (aged 1). Thanks for the link I will try it now. This is fantastic.
Regards
Kate
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firstly to aghadowey, religion I am sure was protestant. Yes, you are right about verifying the information, I guess I have taken the letter to much to heart (I was just so excited at finding something like that). I am trying to tie up these little problems one by one. I seem to have all very common names like Little, Boyd and Gordon, just the luck of the draw I guess. But all of the replies by everyone have been most helpful and I am thankful.
They may have been Protestant but that alone is not very helpful. Two most likely possiblities are Church of Ireland and Presbyterian but there's also Methodist, Baptist, Reformed Presbyterian, etc. in the area.
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What is the likelihood of being congragational??? In Australia they attended a congragational church.
Kate
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Not aware of a Congregational church in Limavady but possibly they went to one in Australia because it was nearby, they knew the minister, had friends there, or some other reason.
Have you done a parent search on IGI? Based on parents Edward Gordon and Mary (although some of the foregoing threads refer to Gordon Edward, so forgive me if I am looking at the wrong person), it turns up 3 children born in Drumachose, Londonderry. These being a Sally Jane Gordon christened (therefore quite possibly born in 1834) on 24/1/1835 (in my own family research, I have found Sally and Sarah interchangeable as first names), James Mitchell Gordon christened 29/3/1837 and a Robert Gordon born 19/1/1839. Drumachose would have been situated in NewtownLimavady/Limavady.
Although IGI is not always reliable, these are extracted rather than user submitted records, so I would have more confidence in them.
Think the above is a very strong possiblity.
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Hi again Kate,
I did a search on the Vic BDM site and also managed to come up with no births to William & Sarah! Then I read the "Search Hints'"and found that one should not enter anything in the box "father's family name"!
A search for births, Family Name LITTLE, Mother's Family Name GORDON gets 13 results (they would fit on one page - and it costs the same for a page of up to 20 result records as for 1 result record). The same search but adding Father's Given Name William gets 8 results. The same search but rendering Father's Given Name as W*m gets 9 results.
I've gone back to an earlier post (response #9) and inserted the reference numbers for the births. Though you might well wish to download them yourself just to be quite sure!
Here are a couple of other deaths:
*LITTLE Wm/ (father) Little Wm/ (mother) Sarah J GORDON/ (place) TGON/ (age)84/ (date) 1946/ (reference number) #23786
*HARPER Sarah/ Little Jas/ Jane BOYD/ Elmore/ 76/ 1908/ #5742
scotmum, As you can see, the Vic indexes reverse the father's name and don't capitalize the surname (cf. the mother's name!). Often, where the family name is the same as the father's surname, the surname is not even included in the father column! I try to quote "as is" (rather than making what is an assumption) but I agree that it can be confusing.
JAP
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Hi Jap
Thanks for this, I have learnt quite a bit about searching in the last couple of days, it seems less information is better when looking in the indexes or the internet for that matter. Thanks for your advice on the other question, I must have entered too much information as I didn't get anything except gibberish. I think drumbanagher I may have spelt wrong :-[ :-[. I do wish I had discovered Rootschat earlier in my searching.
Regards Kate
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Hi again
Thanks for the references too, it's much appreciated. Sorry I meant to put this in the other message but forgot.
Regards Kate
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Hi again Kate,
It seems that William LITTLE re-married soon after Sarah Jane's death?
William LITTLE (born Armagh) married Mary Jane CLAPPERTON (born Antrim), 1870, #3123
They had (at least):
*Hannah, MALM, 1871, #17454; she died aged 5 (birthplace given as Kyneton) 1877, #6730
*Alice Matilda, ROSEDALE, 1873, #19474
*John Charles, ROSE, 1875, #25421; he died aged 1 (birthplace given as LOY YANG) 1877, #6741
*Hannah Mabel, TRAR, 1878, #12333
*Emy Ruth, TRAR, 1881, #20109
A couple of other relevant marriages?
Mary Jane LITTLE (born Mbury) married Thomas CLAPPERTON (born Antrim) 1881 #3787
James LITTLE (born Armagh) married Jamesina Paxton GOLLAN (born Ross-shire) 1870 #4270
JAP
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Hi Jap
Thanks for that information, I didn't know he remarried so that's a big surprise in all these new people.
James Little is James and Jane's 5th child and this too was his 2nd marriage I believe, his 1st was to a Hannon. His sister Hannah married a Roderick Gollan so I am guessing this was how they met (or it could have been the other way around). I am assuming Mary Jane to be the daughter of William's first marriage. All very interesting.
Regards Kate
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Well, I suppose it was your William re-marrying - but can't be certain.
Some other deaths - then I'll stop!
PENTLAND Sarah/ Little Wm/ Sarah Jane GORDON/ (death place) TGON/ 69/ 1935 #13301
PRYDE Margt Louisa/ Little Wm/ Sarah Jane GORDON/ MELB/ 66/ 1933/ #3968
REID Annie Elizth/ Little Wm/ Sarah Jane GORDON/ DROMANA/ 77/ 1940 #19305
CLAPPERTON Mary Jane/ Little Wm/ Sarah Jane GORDON/ E KEW/ 80/ 1940 #6451
CRAWFORD Hannah Mabel/ Little Wm/ Jane CLAPPERTON/ MELB/ 66/ 1944/ #9295
MCDONALD Amy Ruth/ Little Wm/ Mary Jane CLAPPERTON/ TRAR/ 81/ 1962 #12366
JAP
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I think drumbanagher I may have spelt wrong
Now I'm confused- have I missed something in earlier posts? Where does Drumbanagher come into all this? There are two townlands called Drumbanagher in Ireland- one in Monaghan and one in Armagh.
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... Now I'm confused- have I missed something in earlier posts? Where does Drumbanagher come into all this? There are two townlands called Drumbanagher in Ireland- one in Monaghan and one in Armagh.
Hi aghadowey,
Drumbanagher - and Poyntzpass - are over on:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,244508.0.html
where you kindly located them for Kate.
JAP
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Thanks JAP- I somehow thought it was connected to Gordons & this place 'Newton' when the name just seemed to appear here.
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SORRY aghadowey, my mistake, I was replying to JAP about 2 seperate posts more relating to problems with searching than to do with the places mentioned. You had already answered my post in regards to Poyntz Pass and Drumbanagher.
Kate