RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Walksfarman on Wednesday 18 July 07 08:48 BST (UK)
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Hello,
Help needed!, I have just joined, and have begun researching my family history which has been a mystery and I have hit brickwalls almost every where I go, my surname is MENERE and I was informed that this is a variation of a French Huguenot name, the family, so I am told, fled France mid to late 17th Century due to the religious persecution on the Continent, especially the Edict of Nantes by Louis X1V.
Name variations are: MENER, MENNEAR, MENIER, MENURE, MENEYER, MENEER, MENEAR, MANHARE, MANHIRE etc. I am having a hard time trying to connect these names with MENERE, and have not been at all successful finding out where the family fled to, be it England (strongest possibility), Ireland or America, and what ship they just happened to be on.
My GGG Grandfather Joseph MENERE b abt 1770 place unknown believed to be France, was listed as being in the navy AND the army at the same time! which country? I have no idea, spouse name was Sarah (surname unknown), Joseph and Sarah had 3 children born in England.
If a very kind and helpful person may be able to help me here or point me in the right direction, pleeeaaaase! I will be forever greatful!
Kindest regards,
Ozzyal
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Hello OzzyAl and a warm welcome to Rootschat :)
You'll find people very helpful here. In order to help Rootschatters to help you, do give all the information you have, especially on an intriguing mystery like this!
So, for starters:
In what document(s) was Joseph MENERE listed as being in the navy and the army. What were the dates of those documents?
What is the source of your approximate birthdate for Joseph of 1770 and belief that his birthplace was France?
Who were the three children born to Joseph and Sarah in England - full names and dates if you have them?
Did those children go on to marry and have children in England?
I'm guessing there was a further emigration from England at some time - perhaps to Australia (?). Who emigrated, and when?
I'm sure more detail on some of the above will get the ball rolling for you :)
Anna
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Hi OzzyAl :)
Welcome to Rootschat from me, too!
I recently traced a friend's family tree which contained a number of French families said to be Huguenot (all the family tree was English). I found that all the French families were very reliable when christening/baptising their children, and all did so at named or known Huguenot churches in the eastern part of London, right across the 18th and 19th centuries. Birth dates were recorded along with baptisms, all of which I found on the IGI, and baptism almost without exception was carried out within one month of the birth.
If you start searching for your family on the IGI (International Genealogical Index - if you need to know where to find this just holler!) and they were in or around London, I think you'll be able to find out pretty quickly if they were Huguenot or not!
Good luck!
Prue
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P.S. Something which you may have already seen:
http://www.surnamedb.com/surname.aspx?name=Menere
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:) I dont know if you have seen
http://www.huguenot.netnation.com/ancestor/lookup.php?a
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Hi Guys
Ozzyal has posted more info on another thread (which I have locked to prevent duplication)
I am researching the name MENERE,
variations are:MENER, MENEAR, MENNEAR, MENIER, MENURE, MENEER, MENEYER, MANHIRE, MENHIRE and a few more. Believed to have fled France in the 1700's
Christian names: Joseph b abt 1770 in France?, William James b5/8/1908/12 London, Sarah b1815 London?, Edward Joseph b1822 London, Henri William b24/5/1844 Louth Ireland, Elizabeth Mary b1847 Louth Ireland, George Edward b1847/48 Louth Ireland, Fanny Matilda b1849 Louth Ireland, Louisa Sarah b1850 Dublin Ireland, Evelyn Emma b1851/52 At sea, Frank Charles b1855 Australia, Marion Frances b1858 Australia, Edward George b17/7/1878, Albert Henri b1880(grandfather) Australia, Ellen Emma b1881 Australia, Eveline b1882 Australia. + a lot more.
I have scant details to date, no immigration details etc either, is there anyone out there who can help?
Kind regards,
Ozzyal
Hope this helps!
Hi Ozzyal - best to keep all the info in one place to start with - good luck with your search!
kind regards, Arranroots ;)
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On Family Search site there are a number of references to a family with this name, with a submitter's name and address.
I have sent a p.m. to let you know.
Beth
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Hi everyone, I am super impressed with the immediate responses! Thank you so very much!
Firstly to ANNA, I do not possess any documents re Joseph MENERE, only that I was informed by a gentleman in the usa of this (say no more), and some people here also have informed me to which I asked for proof and of course they could not deliver!
As for Joseph MENERE I found it on the LDS site.
Joseph MENERE babt 1770 d30/5/1847 Marylebone London Eng, and Sarah?b abt1779 Chalfont St Peter Bucks Eng. d9/3/1877 Chalfont St Peter Bucks Eng.
Children are:
William James b5/8/1812 London d13/9/1861 Australia, spouse Matilda Frances MEAD b1821 Bath Somerset d7/3/1890 Australia, m 25/3/1843 Cheltenham Gloucestershire Eng, had 8 children.
Sarah b1815 St Georges hanover Sqr Middlesex d23/12/1894 Chalfont St Peter Bucks Eng, spouse John BALLARD b1814 Chalfont St Peter Bucks Eng, m13/7/1846 St Marylebone Middlesex, had 1 child Ann b 1850?, Edward Joseph b1822 Place London? not sure d1867 Uxbridge Middlesex Eng, spouse Hannah BROOKS (nothing known) m 23/5/1841 London, 2 children Edward & Martha.
Sources: 1851(30th March) Brislington & 1861 England Census, Eng & Wales Free BDM 1837-1983 Records,
International Genealogical Index/British Isles shows 21 MENERE's which I have not looked into as yet, the 1881 Eng Census record shows a Hannah MENERE , boarder b abt 1819 Boingstoke again not researched to date. most, not all, lead to a blind alleys, for me anyway.
Also MENERE's listed in Polruan Cornwall, but do not know if they are related.
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Prue, thankyou muchly for the web sites, will check them out shortly.
I have looked at the French huguenot church in Threadneedle St sight for England, but didn't do much research.
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Hello OzzyAl,
St George Hanover Square (AKA St George Mayfair) hasn't been transcribed onto the IGI yet for the period you're interested in (1770 onwards). You'd have to go in to London to view the registers at the City of Westminster Archives Centre:
http://www.stgeorgeshanoversquare.org/Churcharchives.htm
That at least would confirm for you the dates of baptism of the children, and maybe Joseph and Sarah's marriage. (By the way, I found a baptism for William on the IGI, giving the date as 1809 ??? - that's the trouble with user-submitted records, you never know whether they're right or not, as you don't know what their sources are!)
St George Hanover Square is a Church of England, which might preclude your family being Huguenot (unless they were well and truly Anglicised by then).
Prue
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OK then -
As you say, the 1851 census shows William James MENERE aged 39 with wife Matilda F, and five Irish-born children, living in Brislington. William's age ties in with the 1812 birthdate you cite. Unfortunately he gives his birthplace only as London which is not as precise as one might hope!
What a shame Joseph died before 1851 - still, if he can be found in 1841 it should at least give some indication of where he was born. Off to look for him...
Anna
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My goodness, these MENEREs are hard to find ;)
Edward Joseph may have married twice - I see the marriage to Hannah in 1841, the birth of Edward William, and the birth and death of baby Martha. There is then another marriage of an Edward Joseph MENERE in Lewisham, Mar 1856, to Amelia ALLEN or Mary Ann MARRIOTT, and a death in Uxbridge in Dec 1861 of a Mary MENERE, who may or may not be the same person as the former Mary Ann MARRIOTT.
But whoever can find any of these people in any census is a better person than I ;)
Of course, none of this tells you whether they were or were not descended from Huguenots, but sometimes the piecing together of the jigsaw throws up unexpected evidence!
Anna
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This looks interesting:
Boyd's marriage index has a marriage of
Jos MENERE and Sara PRICKETT
St George, Hanover Square, 1809
Anna
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Some burials from the London burials index 1538-1872:
1844 MENERE Edward William aged 1, All Hallows, London Wall
1846 MENERE Martha aged 5 months, St James, Duke's Place
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If anyone researching any Huguenots has the chance to get to the Society of Genealogists, have a look or get someone to look at their records of the Huguenots. They have a huge collection of info. & when I was researching my own Huguenot ancestors there I found complete family trees, wills, an overwhelming amount of info.
Another point of interest re. Huguenots, they tended to gather & live in close communities, in Essex around Chelmsford, Canterbury in Kent &, of course, Spitalfields in London. When the Hugenots arrived here they had no church of their own & the first place they stayed was Canterbury & the Cathedral authorities made them welcome & gave them part of the Crypt of the Cathedral as their own church. I have a letter from the Pastor of the Eglise Protestante Francaise de Canterbury dated 1929 confirming there were 5 entries for baptisms for my Huguenot ancestors c 1656 in the church records & I believe 2 members were actually buried in the Crypt. There is another quirky thing, many Huguenots did not marry in their own French Churches after they were established as it was considered too expensive, they married in the established C of E churches.
I wish you well with your Huguenot research it is a fascinating subject.
http://www.sog.org.uk/
Meliora
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Hi
I noticed Bucks mentioned in one of the references. There was a large influx of Belgian Hugenots into Bucks where they became involved in the local lacemaking industry. Over 100,000 came over to England in the late 1500s followed by another wave in the 1600s.
Regards
Modem
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This looks interesting:
Boyd's marriage index has a marriage of
Jos MENERE and Sara PRICKETT
St George, Hanover Square, 1809
Anna
I have access too the index of that church and can tell you the marriage occured on 14th April 1809.
Don't suppose it helps much,but there ya go!
Carol
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I would like say a HUGE thank you to all who replied to my querys, and I am acting upon all the information supplied , it is a long and winding very boggy road with almost no recognizable directions that I am travelling and the fog lifts now and then with the help from people like you all.
One cannot be lost if everyone tells you where to go!
Keep up the great work! I am truly impressed.
Regards,
Ozzyal
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This looks interesting:
Boyd's marriage index has a marriage of
Jos MENERE and Sara PRICKETT
St George, Hanover Square, 1809
Anna
Something which makes the above marriage even more interesting, which I hadn't seen before, is the entry for Sarah MENERE in 1851. She's transcribed as Sarah MENEZE, widow, 71 born Bucks, living as lodger with a VICKERY (I think, but transcribed Vuchary) family at the Rectory, St Marylebone. The other lodger at the address? An Ann PRICKETT, unmarried, 70, born Bucks. I'd bet my bottom dollar she's Sarah's sister or cousin.
HO107/1488 folio 328 p56.
Anna :)
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OK - finally I think I have Joseph and Sarah MENERE in 1841
They are in an un-numbered property at Hampden Row, Great Hampden, Bucks, both transcribed as MENERS. Joseph is 60 (though indexed as though he were 50 - somebody has misread the entry) and Sarah 55. Joseph's occupation is Ind (independent means) and birthplace is given as F - which means Foreign Parts; not necessarily France, but consistent with that theory. Sarah's birthplace is given as Buckinghamshire, which is consistent with other census information for her. With them is a 4 yr old Thomas BAYES or BOYES, not born in county. At the same address, though apparently a different household, are the following:
William LEWIS 35 Ag lab
Ann LEWIS 40
Martha LEWIS 35
all born in county (Bucks)
HO107/41 Book 8 folio 7 p10
Anna :)
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With them is a 4 yr old Thomas BAYES or BOYES, not born in county.
Here's a baptism for the little boy (from IGI, extracted):
Thomas Meneres BAYES
born 10 May 1837
bapt 2 Jun 1837 St Luke, Chelsea
son of Thomas William BAYES and Sarah
Anna
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With them is a 4 yr old Thomas BAYES or BOYES, not born in county.
Here's a baptism for the little boy (from IGI, extracted):
Thomas Meneres BAYES
born 10 May 1837
bapt 2 Jun 1837 St Luke, Chelsea
son of Thomas William BAYES and Sarah
Anna
A Thomas who may be the right one appears in 1851 (though age is a couple of years out):
St Luke, Chelsea
North St
HO107/1474 folio 10 p12
Thomas Bayes Head Mar 42 Strolling Musician London Bishopsgate [Court?] BLIND
Sarah Bayes Wife Mar 43 Char Woman Surrey Bermondsey
Thomas Bayes Son U 16 Strolling Musician Middx Chelsea
John Bayes Son U 13 Scholar Middx Chelsea
Robert Bayes Son U 9 Scholar Middx Chelsea
Henry Bayes Son U 1 Middx Chelsea
Charlotte Bayes Gd mother Widow 68 Disabled Norfolk
Augustus Fredk Giorgi Companion Widower 58 Musician & teacher Middx Kensington
Anna
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Sorry this is a bit late - over a year - but I have just returned to searching my Bayes family and came across this by searching RootsChat.
The Thomas Bayes & Sarah mention in the 1851 census were Thomas Bayes & Sarah Attiemore [Attimore] who married on 3rd January 1830 in Kensington. This has come from Parish registers and confirmed on the birth certificate for son Henry who was born on 17th January 1850, at 20 North Street, Chelsea.
Not really sure it fits in with the name Meneres!!!!!!!!
I think Charlotte, Thomas's mother died on 21st August 1856, aged 68 (so she did not age from the 1851 census!) but as she was only 55 on the 1841 census it is anyones guess! Anyway the death certificate says she was the widow of Mr. Bayes coach painter, but nothing so helpful as an initial.
As for where Thomas Bayes was born c1809, Bishopsgate Court, as far as I can tell by looking at old maps the place is now buried under Liverpool Street Station!
I don't have copies of the death certificate for Thomas, but I think he died in the December qtr. 1863 Chelsea 1a 138, and Sarah (nee Attiemore) died aged 60 in the March qtr 1868 Chelsea 1a 182?
Hope this helps even if it is only for elimination purposes.
Good Luck with your search.
Patsy
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A couple of the churches mentioned, St James Duke's Place, and St George Hanover Square, are rather infamous for performing irregular or "clandestine" marriages...it does make interesting reading. They were apparently populated by clergy who would, for a fee, perform marriages of just about anybody to just about anybody without investigation or banns. Marriage of persons underage without parental consent, persons already married, persons who wished to marry "prohibited" (closely related) persons...it's worth a bit of research and there is plenty of information on the net.
There may also have been perfectly good reasons for marrying in such an unregulated atmosphere, though, and to my mind an expatriate non-member of the Church of England might be one of them. At any rate, looking into these clandestine marriages makes highly entertaining reading.
Every time I see the title of this thread it seems to me that it should be Huguenot or Hugue-not... :P :P :P ;D ;D ;D...sorry, it's late :P
Cheers,
China ;D
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Quite a few Huguenots came over to the Fens too. I think the following might make interesting reading, especially Part 2, which contains a mention of the surname Mannier...............
Huguenots and Walloons in the Fens Part 1 (http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE/2003-11/1069633364)
Huguenots and Walloons in the Fens Part 2 (http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE/2003-11/1069633373)
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Patsy - your Thomas Bayes born circa 1835 was with his family in Chelsea in 1841 (enumerated as Bays) so he's definitely not the one with the Meneres.
HO107/ 687/4 f 55 p51
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With them is a 4 yr old Thomas BAYES or BOYES, not born in county.
Here's a baptism for the little boy (from IGI, extracted):
Thomas Meneres BAYES
born 10 May 1837
bapt 2 Jun 1837 St Luke, Chelsea
son of Thomas William BAYES and Sarah
Anna
This thread is from a long time ago but ....
The Thomas Menere Bayes referred to above was daughter of Thomas William Bayes (surgeon) and Sarah MENERE - daughter of Joseph & Sarah Menere (allegedly PRICKETT). Thomas Menere Bayes is found living with his grandparents in the UK 1841 census. His dad, Thomas William Bayes died in 1848 and his mother, Sarah, remarried to a John Ballard (of the Grey Inn Bucks). Thomas Menere Bayes can be found with his mother & step dad in the UK 1851 census (listed as Bay from memory). He immigrated later the same year to Australia on the vessel the Ameer, arriving Victoria Dec 1851. Also onboard was his aunt & uncle William James Menere & Matilda Frances (nee Mead) and his cousins. As an added extra, a Roberts family was also onboard, being John Walker Roberts and his wife Elizabeth Gardner (nee Mead - sister of Matilda Frances) and family.
What happened to him after arrival in Australia? I have no idea. My link is tenuous - via John Walker Roberts & Elizabeth Gardner (nee Mead) but have developed an interest (albeit very frustrated) in the Menere family. Also stuck at Joseph Menere
cocksie
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I have a number of Huguenot Society CDs (1,2,5b and 7 to be precise) and would be happpy to perform lookups for anyone. Just PM me and I'll see what I can do.
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Before asking any Huguenot related questions I, like others researching this MENERE family, need to establish where Joseph was baptized - somewhere between 1770 and 1781(60 in 1841 census yet 77 when died in 1847). I can track Joseph, his wife and children back to his alleged marriage in 1809. But there are some odd bits of info which can't be traced and or conclusively connected being:
1. Joseph's sons death notice in 1861 stating he was son of "late lieutenant Joseph MENERE"
2. Letter from Joseph's grand daughter to her nephew in 1918 also stating Joseph was a lieutenant and that the MENERE family were Huguenots who arrived in England in 1700s. She states there were only 3 children. Nearly All other info in this letter has been proved to be correct.
3. Plus I may have found 2 more children baptized to Joseph and Sarah. Place of baptisms fit but dates do not and no further evidence of them can be found. Leads me to wonder - did they die OR are there 2 josephs and sarahs floating around?
All census info, bcs, mcs, dcs regarding Joseph list him as a servant or valet. If he was in military it was before 1809 and I can't find it
I will google to see what type of info is in the CDs before harrassing you!
Thanks for the offer
Cocksie
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I will google to see what type of info is in the CDs before harrassing you!
Thanks for the offer
Cocksie
No problem. The CDs contain normal parish record entries for baptisms and marriages with the added bonus of the names of Godparents in many cases.
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I've just carried out a search of all of my Huguenot CDs and there are quite a few occurrences of Menier. Here's a few examples from the French Church Threadneedle Street:
MENIER, Jonas, fils de feu Oliuier, natif de Lisle Dorny, et Elizabeth, fille de Clement de La
Fontaine, natifue de Londre. Janv. 28 1610.
MENIER, Madelaine, fille de Jonas M., et d'Elisabette Des Fontainne. Tdm. Andrieu
Dieurpart, Anne Mennier, femme de Pierre Myquel, Isabeau, femrne de Clement de
La Fontaine. Nov. 4 1610.
MENIER, Jonas, fils de Jonos [sic] M. Tim,. Jonas Fontaine, Susanne, svesue [sic] de feu Daniel
Mercier. Sept. 10 1626.
MENIER, Jenne, fille de Jonas M. Tdm. Mr Le Seueur, Jenne Fonteynne, Mary Picart. Mars 2 1628.
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Ohhhh .... so incredibly interesting but I can't make the leap back that far yet! Still looking for the baptism of Joseph Menier (and a multitude of spellings) somewhere between 1770 and 1781.
If I can find this and work backwards I might meet up with some of the people you have listed in the 1600s. Just a century or so to go.
I may well be chasing you down in the future!
Thank you for looking and posting
Jenny
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Hi I am also dealing with Huguenot and Wallons. I have traced my family to Bethnal green to start with. From here I used family stories and little bits of family chatter to broaden my horizons.
The reason? Well the reason was the family believed that they were the Noble St John's and thought they had ties to the Lydiard Tregoze side of them. Through much and many months research I found this simply not the way it was.
Through a little untold story on the family, one of my great grandfathers, was always called the 'Little frenchman'. Now i had this in my mind and I didnt even link it when I found the family name of a person, whom was Married as St John, BUT, on re looking at the marriage I saw that they married in the french Chapel in London.. the other fact was the brides name.. after researching I found looking at research alone, I traced them to Canterbury all of a sudden everything clicked together.. births baptisms marriages - After getting the Canterbury CD from the Huguenot Society, I patiently went through the records and there they all were.. I have now moved Above 1712, and found my 9th Great Grandfather -
When searching through the CD I found him in the registers and from this I found his 2nd marriage, which also told me from whence he had came to Canterbury in the UK. I am now in France - North of France - researching for Him and his mother and father.. with the greatest of difficulty through language... I have found that the area he was in Mouvaux, Lille, was a Protestant area, besides all this it was on the border with Belguim and the Netherlands, which part of were once Dutch, which leads to the other side of Huguenots the Walloons..
The point? The Huguenot Society has a lot of info, that I wish I could get all of it - but I do have now the, Canterbury CD and the Threadneedle street CD - all have been so helpful thus far.
Also Spellings... WOW - this can cause such confusion - it helps to have a notebook to hand to see the difference in these. My family are actually St Jean ( English - St John) BUT there are several variations on the spellings if this simple name. I have Monnier which is also spelt differently, as well as Hagnere, or hangnery, Le sedt, Sedt - all these can cause much confusion.
The ;De St Jean's; as their name was - started to change in 1712ish when the younger children decided to be more in keeping with the English, their choice of religion also started to change as well which I have noted -
In the end I have arrived at between C1600 - C1613 - where I know more or less my 9th Great grandfather was born. His 1st marriage was around C1628 when he had his 1st child in C1629.
The Younger 'De St Jean's' moved to Spitalfeilds in the late 1680's - and were around that area and Bethnal Green.. Even today I can tell you that the majority of the family have either stayed in and around London and also Canterbury Kent.. How strange is that!!
I can give links to sites I have found to help with research... and if anyone can help me I would also be grateful of help and pointers...
sj :)
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Hallo, gingertrixy. I am considering getting the HugSoc CD for the Canterbury Huguenots - I take it that you found it useful. And I also have Sedt (Corneille and his 10 children) in my direct ancestral line, so would be interested in a private discussion about the descent from Sedt through Despaigne, Messman, Ranshall, Wrench, White, Wilson to Millo, and, of course, about the lineage further back from Corneille himself.
For origins of Protestants in Northern France I strongly recommend the Jean-Paul & Chantal free website, which you can find at: http://www.roelly.org/~pro_picards/prop/index.html - let me know if you need any help with it.
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Some C of E churches permitted dual services eg the crypt at Canterbury Cathedral and St Andrew Plymouth had late night services for Huguenots with their own pastor. At St Andrew's they conducted their own baptisms and these were recorded in the back of the C of E registers. St Julien the French Church in Southampton became part of the established C of E in its administration. It is owned by Queen's College Oxford and unusually comes under the jurisdiction of the Archbishop of York.
There were many ports where Huguenots arrived including Falmouth, Exeter [Topsham], Bideford, Barnstaple, Plymouth [especially East Stonehouse], Rye, Dover, Folkstone, Bristol, London, Essex and East Anglia. Many families in Devon are of Huguenot stock it is estimated that after the Revocation of the Edict of Nantes that Devon's population increased between 10 -20%.
Some headed directly to Dublin whilst others travelled from the south coast ports to the north west as a place of departure often using Chesterfield as a gathering point.
In many instances instead of using boys names associated with the Norman French kings [William, Richard, John, Henry] families chose "strong" biblical names such as Bartholomew [Nathaniel], Samson, Sampson, Francis, Hercules [Argulus], Matthew, Ezekiel etc
The use of alias names in church registers and later other documents such as leases and land transfers was common but the practice varies from location to location. Some alias names were perhaps the Anglo Saxon interpretation Boncouer in the Plymouth area became Bunker, Colligne in the same area became Collings, Touseau became Tozer. In other cases there does not seem to be a defined link in the use of an alternate surname. Possibly not sure if they would eventually return to France they wanted to flag up a family name to help to establish a claim to property etc. Another view was they used the name of the family who offered shelter or support more or less as a mark of respect. Additionally many guilds particularly in the City of London and large towns prevented those who had not been apprenticed from entering skilled trades and possibly the use of a master craftsman's name gave some form of approval.
The original poster was seeking the name of the vessel, this is very highly unlikely as many arrived in small sailed ships, some refugees were hidden in casks or under sails stored on deck.
The Huguenot Society of Britain and Ireland now has its research centre at TNA at Kew, an appointment is necessary. The Society has published several sets of church registers sometimes the volume has strange bedfellows. The East Stonehouse [Plymouth] the Walloon Southampton. Bristol and Thorpe Le Soken registers are contained in one single volume or CD.
Between 40/50,000 arrived in England, 10,000 in Ireland, 10,000 to North America and 400 to the Cape of Good Hope.
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Every time I see a notification for this topic I think it should be entitled Huguenot or HugueNOT!
Sorry, just my sense of humour - it's a fascinating subject.
Kind regards, Arranroots :)
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Every time I see a notification for this topic I think it should be entitled Huguenot or HugueNOT!
Sorry, just my sense of humour - it's a fascinating subject.
Kind regards, Arranroots :)
I'm afraid my brain does the same thing too. Or possible just shorten it to Hugueornot.
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Genius, Mike!
You'd be great at Twitter, where every character (sic) counts!
:D
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Hi folks.
I'm an Australian descendent of William James Menere, and evidently also of Joseph.
Here's what I have:
Joseph Menere (Maniere in the records I've seen):
Born around 1770 to Charles Maniere and Francois Touron.
Married Toinette Lacombe 1796 at Terrassom-Lavilledieu, Sariat, Dordogne, Aquitaine, France (Joseph aged 26, Toinette aged 24).
13 April 1809 marries Sarah Prickett (Banns). Marriage record spells surname as Menarey.
13 May 1847 dies at 10 Adam Street, Marylebone (occupation recorded as servant).
Son: William James Menere:
Born 3 August 1809 (possibly in London).
Marries Matilda Frances Mead 20 March 1843 in Cheltenham. Marriage certificate gives address at time of marriage as 1 Olney Place and William's occupation as merchant tailor. Father's occupation on certificate given as gentleman. Matilda's father named as Meshack Mead (occupation: plumber).
William and Matilda spent several years in Louth, Ireland, returning briefly to Cheltenham before emigrating to Australia.
Grandson: Henri William Menere.
Baptised 16 April 1843 in Dundalk, Ireland (father's occupation: merchant tailor).
Public Records Office (Victoria) records Henri as a teacher in 1863.
Married Evalina Benson 22 January 1867 in Prahran, Victoria.
1872 was complainant against David Thomas seeking 100 pounds damages for assault. Unable to find result of case.
1877 New South Wales Police Gazette records Henri as having a publican's licence for Mathoura hotel, N.S.W.
Died 21 September 1891 in Melbourne. Death certificate gives cause as asthma, cardiac weakness and diarrhoea (duration 16 years). Occupation recorded as engineer.
Henri's sister: Marion Frances Menere.
Birth 1858 at Keilor Downes, Victoria.
Married John McDonald (storekeeper) 3 June 1884 in Footscray, Victoria.
Daughter Olive Frances (my grandmother) born 7 June 1886 at Wallan Wallan, Victoria.
Died 1854. Buried in Woodend, Victoria.
Olive Frances married Robert Harold Dial in 1919.
I know it's a long time since the initial enquiry, but I hope this helps someone out there.
Peter
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Hi Peter
What clues/details pointed you to searching for Joseph in the Dordogne, France area? Am intrigued.
Cocksie
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Initial clue was Ancestry, although I don't have much confidence in the entries because I've found too many people who don't check their information.
A familysearch check of William Menere in 1804 turned up a reference to Joseph Menere born 1770 in France and died May 30 1847 at 10 Adams Street, Marylebone, London, England. A cross-check in Ancestry matched that information.
Further familysearch check of Joseph Maniere showed his marriage at aged 26 to Toinette Lacombe (aged 24) at Terrasson-Lavilledieu, Sarlat, Dordogne, Aquitaines, France. Date given as 7 lvos 4 (not sure when that is - can't read French). Joseph's parents named as Charles Maniere and Francoise Touron. Toinette's parents named as Pierre Lacombe and Toinette Dumond. This search also had access to the original document.
Further Ancestry search showed Bishop's Transcript record: Joseph Menere birth date about 1770; death date about 1847; burial date 3 June 1847; burial place All Souls, Kensal, Green Kensington and Chelsea, England.
Death certificate bought from GRO confirmed these details.
Bishop's transcript records Joseph's second marriage in 1809 to Sarah Prickett. Joseph's surname recorded as Menarey. Marriage date (by Banns) was 13 April, 1809.
I haven't looked at Joseph's side of my family for several months; that's on my "to do" list. The best resource I've discovered is the GRO records. The biggest frustration is the different spelling of the surname so I hope the different ones I've put above help. Perhaps it might be worthwhile trying to find him in the French records?
Peter
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I’m with you and able to confirm everything you have on the Meneres back to Joseph’s marriage to Ms Prickett. Have info from Certs etc as well. Got stuck with Joseph, b. 1770, poss France ... years ago and gave up after some searches in france throwing up a few possibilities that seemed impossible to connect quantifiable with the Jospeh I was looking for.
However, with regard to Joseph and Toinette... I had found this marriage but then drew a blank, was hoping to find offspring of this couple or Toinettes death or something - came away with a blank.
I don’t have everything/documents immediately handy ..so can’t remember clearly right now if Joseph was listed as a widower in relation to his marriage to Ms Prickett......which might have been why I was looking for Toinettes death ..... another Joseph Menere, b 1768 in same area in France married, procreated and clearly stayed in france so I was able to scrub that one off my list of possibilities....
Jenny
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Hi again, Jenny.
Just did another FamilySearch check on Joseph and found some additional information:
Joseph Francois Maniere Fils
France, Paris, Identity Cards, 1792 - 1795
Name: Joseph Francois Manier Fils
Event Type: Residence
Event Date: 6 Sept 1793
Event Place: Paris, Seine, France
Event Place (Original): Paris, France
Address: Rue Chateaulandon 13
Last Place of Residence: Aux Invalides
Age: 23
Occupation: Sculpteur
Birth Year (Estimated): 1770
Birth Place: Paris
Arrival Date: sa naissance (His birth)
Arrival Place: Depuis sa naissance (Since his birth)
Note: Doit monter la G. attendu qu'il doit
demeurer chez son pere sortant des
Invalides avec sa pension
(Google Translation): Must ride the G. wait that he must stay at his father leaving the Invalides
with his pension
Box Number: F7/4792
EXT_ID: 3212
Additional:
William James Menere's marriage (certificate) to Matilda Frances Mead on 20 March 1843 records his father, Joseph's, occupation as Gent. William's occupation is recorded as merchant tailor. Interestingly, the certificate shows the marriage solemnised between J Menere (not W Menere) and Matilda Mead. Marriage performed at Parish Church (Established Church), Cheltenham, Gloucester. Document signed by William Hawkins, Curate.
My mother sometimes told me that the Menere ancestor had to escape France following the Revolution, but I am not at all confident that this is accurate. She also believed he was Jewish, which might or might not be useful.
I've just done a quick search for 18th Century French sculptors and turned up nothing.
If I come across anything else that might be useful I'll post it.
Peter
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Corrections:
Joseph Menere's death certificate records that he died of cancer of the mouth (eight months), and his occupation is listed as servant.
Henri Menere died of asthenia, cardiac weakness and diarrhoea on September 27 1891. Occupation given as engineer.
Additional:
Henri was involved in three legal cases in Victoria (source: Public Records Office of Victoria. I went there today and read and photographed the documents):
Hearing 10 August 1872. Henri William Menere vs David Thomas; alleged assault - no verdict available.
29 January 1875 in the Supreme Court. McNally (Mathew) vs Menere. Plaintiff claimed 38 pounds for principal and interest due to him as drawer and holder of a bill of exchange. Decision in favour of plaintiff plus costs of five pounds. It appears that Henri borrowed 38 pounds from McNally, who was a chemist in Benalla (Victoria) and was unable to repay it.
7 December 1885 in the Supreme Court. Newman vs Menere. Plaintiff claimed 72 pounds 13 shillings and 11 pence plus 28 pounds 18 shillings interest plus 4 pounds 4 shillings for costs due to him as drawer and holder of a bill of exchange (money loaned on 1 October 1879). Newman ran an engineering firm in northern Victoria (still going, apparently) and he loaned the money to Henri. Decision in favour of the plaintiff.
In 1871 Henri approached the Victorian government with a design idea for an improved gun(artillery) carriage. He claims in a letter to the Argus newspaper that on September 7th 1870 he had mentioned the design and gave some details of it to a Mr. Lavater who was "engaged working with Captain Sheppard in working out the plans of the Moncrieff (gun carriage) . . ." Henri accused Lavater of stealing his designs, and the description he (Henri) gives suggests that he was well versed in engineering terminology. The outcome of the dispute is unclear, but Victorian government Hansard records show that Henri was granted 200 pounds to built a prototype, and that in 1872 he was drawing three pounds a week in extra funds from the government. The plan was to test the prototype to see if it was superior, but there are no records to indicate whether these tests were successful. If you Google "Menere Gun Carriage" you should find the sources I have quoted.
If I find any further information about Henri I will post it. I hope this helps someone!
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Text of letter written to the Argus by Henri Menere May 11 1871:
THE MENERE GUN CARRIAGE.
TO THE EDITOR OF THE ARGUS.
Sir,-In your issue of to-day I notice a
letter by Mr. Lavater concerning my gun-car-
riage, and containing assertions which he
must know to be utterly untrue. On Sep-
tember 7, 1870, while Mr. Lavater was en-
gaged with Captain Sheppard in working out
the plans of the Moncrieff, I showed him, at
the request of Colonel Anderson, my hy-
draulic gun-carriage. A few days later, in
the course of conversation with him, I told
him I had a gun-carriage on a new principle
(being my present invention), explaining
its principles to him in a friendly way,
believing him to be a man of honour,
upon which he at once seized my idea
to a certain extent, and thereupon ordered
a model to be quickly constructed by Beau-
champ Brothers, cabinetmakers, of Collins
street west, as he explained to them, he had
just got wind of a new idea. As to my refus-
ing to allow Mr. Lavater to inspect my model,
he did, by his own conduct in trying to pirate
my invention, give me a just reason for such
refusal - as I explained to the Defence Board
at their first meeting. I here most distinctly
and flatly deny that Mr. Lavater has any
claim whatever to a prior invention on my
principle. Now, as Mr. Lavater admits that
he has never inspected my gun-carriage, I
wish to know upon what grounds he com-
pares my invention with his own, Mon-
crieff's, or Captain Grant's? Such a com-
parison, under the circumstances, is most
unjust. A slight exposition of the prin-
ciples upon which I have worked, would
only be fair to those gentlemen who have
encouraged me, and just to myself. I
will plainly show there is a wide difference
between my carriage and that of Moncrieff.
The Moncrieff is built of boiler-plate iron ;
in my invention stout timber, strapped with
iron, is used in the construction. The im-
mense advantage of wood over iron as regards
quick repair is so well known that I need
not further comment. The Moncrieff is com-
posed of complex machinery and cogwheel
action ; mine is entirely divested of any ma-
chinery whatever, simply regulated by
counterpoise, and thrown into position by
two levers of a pressure of 150 pounds each.
The Moncrieff has only one action to utilise
recoil, while I have two distinct actions. The
Moncrieff has no traversing platform, the
carriage itself traversing ; on my principle
the carriage is distinct from the platform,
thereby at a moment's notice facilitating its
movement to any other position on the line
of pits. The Moncrieff is immovable from
the bed of masonry to which it is fixed ; my
carriage is moved to any position with
the same ease as a heavy field piece.
In the Moncrieff, saluting and battering
charges work its machinery to its full extent.
In mine it is so regulated that a saluting
charge lowers the gun from firing position, and
in a battering charge tho recoil is spent on
traversing platform. The Moncrieff requires
heavy masonry to sustain the shock of recoil,
which is one of the causes of its failure. My
carriage requires no masonry whatever for
the traversing platform to work upon. I
maintain further, in reply to Mr. Lavater,
that by advocating a deep pit, and producing
a machine for the working of a gun in that
pit, I gain the object Moncrieff laboured in
vain to achieve, viz , the protection of 5ft. or
more of cover for the men. As to the experi-
ments Mr. Lavater suggests, all I desire is
that practical effcct shall be given to what I
have laboured long and earnestly to bring to
perfection, but which can only be brought
about by the assistance of our Government,
before whom my inventions are being dis-
cussed. In conclusion, Sir, the Defence
Board pronounce my invention as containing
merit, and recommend the Government to
call for tenders for the construction of a
sample gun-carriage according to my plans,
if such a one be required for the defences.
I am, Sir, yours truly,
May 11 1871. HENRI WM. MENERE.
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Search of Trove results for Menere. Lots of very interesting information in these newspaper reports and articles.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/result?q=Menere
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William James Menere Death Notice from Argus newspaper (Melbourne) 13 September 1861
MENERE.—On the 13th inst., at his residence, Keilor
Plains, after long years of suffering, Mr. William
James Menere, eldest son of the late Lieutenant
Joseph Menere, Portman-square, London, and for-
merly cloth-merchant in Dundalk, North of Ireland,
aged fifty-one. Resting on the Atonement, his end
was peace.
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For anyone interested, this is what I have put together: (Part 1)
1. Charles Maniere
—————————————————————————————————————————————
Birth: Unknown.
Death: Unknown.
Spouse: Francoise Touron.
Birth: Unknown.
Death: Unknown.
Marr: Unknown.
Children: Unknown.
1. 1. Joseph Francois Menere (1770 – 1847) (also spelled Maniere on French documents)
—————————————————————————————————————————————
Birth: 1770 in Terrasson-Lavilledieu, Sarlat, Dordogne, Aquitaine, France.
(Source: Dordogne, Church and Civil Registration, 1540 – 1896).
Death: 30 May 1847 at 10 Adams Street, Marylebone, London aged 77 years.
Buried: 3 June 1847 at All Souls Cemetery, Marylebone.
Occ: Sculptor (1793 identity card); Servant on death certificate; grocer on Sarah’s death
certificate.
Cause of Death: Cancer of the mouth (5 months).
Spouse: Toinette Lacombe (Father Pierre Lacombe; mother Toinette Dumond).
Birth: 1778 at Chalfont St. Peter or 1779 at Wendover, Buckinghamshire.
Death: Unknown, but before 1809.
Marr: 17 December 1792 in France.
Spouse: Sarah Prickett.
Birth: 1779 at Chalfont St. Peter, Buckinghamshire, England (possible alternative: Wendover,
Buckinghamshire, England).
Death: 9 February 1877 at Chalfont St. Peter, Buckinghamshire, England.
Cause of death: Natural decay.
Marr: 13 April 1809 in St. George’s C of E Hanover Square, Middlesex, London by Banns. Joseph’s name recorded as Menarey, an Irish Huguenot name
Children: Joseph (About 1809 at St. Mary at Lambeth, Surrey - ).
William James (1812 in London – 13 September 1861 at Keilor Plains, Victoria).
Sarah (1814 at Grosvenor Square, London – 1894; married name Ballard).
Mary (1817 at Queen Street, Mayfair, Westminster, Middlesex – December 1861 at
Uxbridge, Middlesex). Birth surname recorded as Menarey.
Edward Joseph (1821 at Westminster – December 1867 at Uxbridge, Middlesex).
Notes:
Joseph and Toinette were living at Rue Chateaulandon 13, Paris, Seine, France on 6 Sept 1793. Place of residence before this date: Aux Invalides.
In 1809 Bishops Transcript marriage records names are given as Joseph Menarey and Sarah Prickett.
Quite a number of sculptors in France at the time worked on churches and had accidents during the construction and therefore the church paid a pension. Some continued to work in a limited way. This is possibly what happened to Joseph.
Having an injury might explain why Joseph died as a servant if he was unable to work.
Residence in 1814: Duke Street, Mayfair, Westminster. Occupation: Valet. This residence listed on Sarah’s baptism certificate.
Residence 8 May 1817 was Queen Street, Mayfair, Westminster. This address on Mary’s baptism record (surname given as Menarey).
11 August 1836 residence Charles Street, Berkeley Square, London. Contents insured by Sun Fire Office Insurance (later Sun Alliance and now Royal and Sun Alliance Group, Inc. National Archives (UK) Ms.11936/551/1228694.
1841 residence: Hampden Row hamlet, Parish of Great Hampden, Buckinghamshire. Occupation: Independent means.
Residence 12 July 1846: St. Marylebone, London. Occupation: Gentleman.
Residence at time of death 29 May 1847: 10 Adam Street East, St. Marylebone. Address at time of death.
There is a suggestion in a reliable Ancestry source that Joseph was a Lieutenant either in the army or navy. No records available.
1851 residence: 23 Spring Street, St, Marylebone, Middlesex. Widow. A lodger in the house of James Vickery, along with Ann Prickett (possibly her sister).
1861 residence: Grey Hound Inn, Chalfont St. Peter, Buckinghamshire. Living with daughter, Sarah Ballard (nee Menere).
1871 residence: Grey Hound Inn, Chalfont St. Peter, Buckinghamshire.
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Here's part 2:
1.1. William James Menere
—————————————————————————————————————————————
Birth: 2/3 August 1809 in Grosvenor Square, London. Baptised 5 August 1809.
Death: 13 September 1861 at Keilor, Victoria, Australia (no death certificate available).
Occ: Merchant tailor.
Spouse: Matilda Frances Mead.
Birth: 1820/1
Death: 7 March 1890 at Wallan, Victoria, aged 69 years. Funeral 8 March 1890.
Arrival: 1851 (Evelina born aboard the ship “Ameer” off Indonesia on 15 October 1851).
Marr: 20 March 1843 at St. Mary’s Church, Cheltenham, Gloucester, England. The marriage certificate records that their address was 1 Olney Place, Cheltenham, Gloucester. This street does not exist. It’s likely that it was 1 Albany Street, and the address was a transcription error. Fathers Joseph Menere (gentleman) and Meshack Mead (plumber). Married by William Hawkins (Curate).
Children: Henri William (24 May 1844 at Dundalk, Louth, Ireland – 27 September 1891 at 321 Station Street, North Carlton, Melbourne) Born at Dundalk, Louth, Ireland. Baptised 16 April 1845 at Cheltenham, Somerset. Married Evalina Benson in 1867.
Elizabeth Mary (1846/7 – 3 April 1905 at 9 Post Office Place, South Melbourne) Born at Dundalk, Louth, Ireland. 31 July 1866 married George H. Veach (son of James Veach, contractor originally from Truro, Cornwall) at St. John’s Church, Malmsbury. Address at time of marriage: Bute Street, Footscray. Rev. H. C. Watson conducted the ceremony.
George Edward (1847 – 1 January 1885) Born at Dublin, Ireland. Died of heart disease in Normanton, Queensland aged 37 years.
Fanny Matilda (1848/9 – 1898 at Prahran, Melbourne) Born at Dundalk, Louth, Ireland.
Louisa Sarah (1850 in Dublin – 13 December 1926 at Taradale, Victoria) Born at Dublin, Ireland.
Eveline Emma (15 October 1851 – 5 November 1931 at Footscray, Melbourne) at sea off the coast of Sulawesi Tengah, Indonesia on the barque “Ameer” sailing to Australia from the UK (Source: William James Menere document). Christened 16 April 1856 at Wesleyan Chapel, Prahran.
Frank Charles (1855 at Prahran, Victoria – 1856). Family residence at this time in Melbourne.
Marion Frances (1857 – 1954) at Keilor Plains, Victoria, Australia. Married James McDonald on 14 June 1884 in house of Marion’s sister in Bute Street, Footscray. Rev. John Clark (Presbyterian Church) officiated.
Notes:
1851 census gives William’s occupation as Gentleman annuitant. Address was 62 Church Hill, Brislington, parish of Bath (now a suburb of Bristol). It’s possible that the family was living at this address prior to embarking for Australia (census was taken on 30 March 1851; Eveline was born aboard the ship off Indonesia in November 1851).
Matilda’s parents’ residence in 1834 was 1 Albany Place Cheltenham UK.
Matilda re-married on 12 March 1867. Married George Jones.
1. Marion Frances Menere
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Birth: 1857 at Keilor Plains, Melbourne (birth certificate not on Victorian BDM).
Death: 20 January 1954 at Woodend, Victoria, aged 96 years.
Cause of Death: Cardio-vascular degeneration (2 years); senility (5 years).
Spouse: John Roderick McDonald
Birth: 1854
Death: 27 September 1937 at Woodend, Victoria.
Marr: 14 June 1884 at Bute Street, Footscray (now Seddon), Melbourne (by special licence).
Children: Marion Margaret (1884 - )
Olive Frances (9 June 1886 at Wallan Wallan, Victoria – 16 January 1956 at Woodend). Cause of death: Cerebral thrombosis (4 days); Diabetes mellitus (20 years).
Jessie Grace (18 June 1888/9 at Wallan Wallan, Victoria - 2 February 1922 at Woodend, Victoria). Cause of death: diabetes cardiac failure (indefinite).
James (1889 - )
John Farquhar (1894 – 1965 at Ormond, Melbourne)
Norman Murchison (1898 -
Notes:
• Jessie Grace was unmarried. She was a trained nurse.
1. Olive Frances McDonald
—————————————————————————————————————————————
Birth: 9 June 1886 at Wallan Wallan, Victoria.
Death: 16 January 1956 at Woodend, Victoria.
Spouse: Robert Harold Dial.
Birth: Oct 1880 at Donald Victoria.
Death: 23 Oct 1959 at Heidelberg Repatriation Hospital, Melbourne.
Cause of Death: Cardiac failure (1 week), bronchopneumonia (weeks), pleural effusion (build-up of excess fluid between the layers of the pleura outside the lungs) (indefinite), diabetes (indefinite).
Marr: 30 April 1919 at Presbyterian Church, Woodend (Rev D. G. Baillie officiating).
Children: Patricia Violet (1920- 2002)