RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Hampshire & Isle of Wight => Topic started by: francisp on Wednesday 18 July 07 07:58 BST (UK)
-
Charles Cawte is my g-g-g-g-grandfather. He is named (with Sarah Adams) as parents on Emily (my g-g-g-gm, 1846) and Sarah Jane (1847) Cawte's birth certs.
Occ carpenter.
The only possible marriage I find is 1840 at Lymington Church. Parents John Cawte (carpenter) and William Adams (labourer).
Emily is b Landport, Sarah Jane b Milton.
By 1851 Sarah has remarried to Charles Clarke and is at Ashley where she seems to originate from.
Only problem is, I cannot find Charles & Sarah in 1841 census, cannot find any record of Charles birth or death (even though that's been narrowed down to 1847-1850).
The Charles who died in 1849 at Southampton is the wrong man - he is a bookbinder who is clearly in the1841 census with his own family.
If I didn't know otherwise I'd say he never existed ! Any help much appreciated.
Francis Payne
Auckland, New Zealand
-
Hello Francis,
Please could you give us the 1851 census reference (including folio and page number) for Sarah with new husband - I can't easily find them.
Does the 1840 marriage certificate give ages for Charles and Sarah, or does it just say "full age" or equivalent? Who were the witnesses?
Hope to be able to help :)
Anna
-
Hello Anna
Thanks for the reply.
Unfortunately they are just "full age".
Marriage by Banns. Witnesses are Wm Pitt (!!) and Emma Adams who would be her sister.
In 1851 Charles and Sarah are
Class: HO107; Piece: 1666; Folio: 407; Page: 30;
or second ones on this page (if link works)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01r9/
Daughter Jane (who must be Sarah Jane) is given as b Portsmouth but in later censuses this reverts to Milton.
Beware the age given for Sarah !. Needing to marry (and Charles being a younger man) I think she chopped few years off. In subsequent censuses it fluctuates but true DOB around 1819 I reckon.
Francis
-
There is a Charles Cott died in Lymington Mar 1849 - it comes up in the phonetic search for Cawte on FreeBDM. I guess if Sarah couldn't write the same may sound this way ??? She didn't remarry until 1850, so it would be possible.
Trish
-
Thanks Trish. Most interesting.
On one hand I see that Cott appears to be an authentic name but the Charles Cott who is in the 1841 census (at Boldre) is still alive in 1851. So it's not his death recorded at Lymington.
I'll pursue this further !
Francis
-
It is frustrating that the death indexes do not contain more information - I hate to have people spending money on incorrect certificates based on my suggestions. If you wait until some time next year, I believe there will be a new index, containing age at death for all records from 1837 :) - Alternatively do check that there wasn't a child born after 1841 who may have died before 1851 - good luck
Trish
-
Yes, I agree !
When requesting certs from GRO you can specify certain fields (parents' names, etc) but it's not foolproof.
Regarding Your suggestion about a child born between 1841 and 1851, one odd thing is that if Charles Cawte & Sarah Adams married in 1840, there appear to be no children born or died before 1846.
Possible but quite unlikely ! (Unless Charles was detained somewhere at "Her Majesty's Pleasure" ???
Regards
Francis
-
Possible but quite unlikely ! (Unless Charles was detained somewhere at "Her Majesty's Pleasure" ???
Regards
Francis
Coming from Australia, I did wonder about this - as you can't find a death, I wondered if he was transported after 1845 - although transportation was fading at that point in time. Many women did call themselves "widows" and remarried after their men were transported. It is strange they cannot be found in 1841 (I did look with no success) - your thoughts on gaol may be possible!
Trish
-
Thanks again Trish.
I've looked through the actual 1841 census images page by page for Ashley, Milton and Lymington with no success. A couple of pages were too faint to read.
The odd thing is that there is no sign of a likely Sarah Cawte by herself, if Charles was in gaol. What would be the best way (from 12,000 miles away) of checking court records or deportation records of that time ?
Going back to his birth record, or lack of, we may have to concede his parents didn't baptise him - there are plenty of Cawtes recorded at Milton but not mine !
Francis
-
Hi Francis
I have no idea about court records, other than the old bailey (which is not yet up to your time frame). I would think that query could be a new thread (perhaps with a reference to this one, so folks don't talk about "duplication")
Trish
-
CAWTE is a name more common east of Southampton.
The Hampshire CALM database has a settlement examination dated 1786 for John CAWTE of Milton who was born in Bisopstoke but moved to Lymington in the employ of John BESSANT a carpenter.
http://calm.hants.gov.uk/DServeA/search.htm
John may be linked to your Charles ???
-
Hi Francis,
Cawt(e), Caught, Cought, Caut(e), Cawet, Cate, Cort and Court are all variations I have come across in the search my elusive lot with this name. I need to do some digging in all the stuff I have - I'll get back to you if I find anything.
By the way Milton is also an area of Portsmouth as is Landport, so the birthplaces are not necessarily conflicting.
But what concerns me is that at present I cannot find baptisms for Sarah and Emma Adams with a father William in Milton. I have found one for Emma, but not Sarah ???
Nell
-
Thanks for the replies. First the settlement exam is significant as it is the first mention of a connection with Cawtes and carpentry !
John & Mary Cawte had 12 children bap Milton from 1787 so (if it's them) 2yr old John wouldn't be found at Milton, probably Lymington. (Does anyone have access to those records?)
John jr could well be the father of my Charles, and might explain why Charles married at Lymington church, a place which otherwise appeared to have no connection with Cawtes.
"Date 4 Dec 1786
Description Born in Bishopstoke. Lived with his father until he was 16 when he became servant to Mr John Bessant of Bishopstoke, carpenter, for 1 year, at £10; served same man for another 2 years. John Bessant then moves to Lymington and employed Cawte for a further year at £12; served another 2 years for 13 and 14 guineas. He has a wife, Mary and one son, John, 2."
-
Hello Nell
Thanks also. I too found Emma with father William but no Sarah that matches. So now we can't find a birth for either Charles or Sarah !
Sarah Jane (Jane) is given as "b Portsmouth" in the 1841 census and Milton in later ones. I also thought of Milton in Portsmouth but her birth cert says "b Ashley".
Wiliam, the father of Sarah is a labourer on the marriage cert (1840) but in Emma's birth record, which someone looked up for me (1826), is he "an Ashley Farmer" or of "Ashley Farm" ???
I couldn't read the writing and there's a fair difference between the two !
Francis
-
There is/was an Ashley Farm in Milton, so I think you are safe on that one!
I have looked through all the accumulated notes on this name - I ranged over a wide area trying to pin down my own ancestors - but it never took me as far as Lymington. So I don't have anything on Charles, which is disappointing. I really thought I might have been able to come up with something. :(
Nell
-
Thanks again. I was actually trying to figure out if the William Adams (father of Sarah) is listed as a "farmer" or just "of Ashley farm" i.e. ag lab.
I cannot read the handwritten record which somene sent me and wonder if you could clarify as you also seem to have found that record - Milton 5/3/1826.
If he was a farmer then, would he be listed as a labourer in 1840 (on Sarah Adams' marriage cert) ? You wouldn't think so.
What would be the best way of checking the Lymington registers, at least to try and find the 2yr old John, son of the carpenter from Bishopstoke ?
Francis
-
I'm not aware of anyone on Rootschat who has access to Lymington parish records. :(
You can view the records at Lymington library or the Hampshire Records Office.
HRO also sell fiche.
Otherwise you can order mocrofilms of parish records at your local LDS Family History Centre for a small charge.
Found this whilst Googling:
From HRO accessions 1992
It was a particular pleasure to receive an account book of the
Lymington overseers of the poor for 1808-1816 as this filled a gap
in the series already held in the office. The Lymington parish records
have had a more chequered history than almost any other in the
county, as large quantities were inadvertently dumped in a
rubbish tip in the mid '70s and had to be relocated and
excavated. This particular volume, though, was apparently
borrowed earlier than this by a family historian and only now -
twenty years on - returned. The book forms a sad record of
those unable to cope financially in a period of great hardship;
it includes a payment of 17s for a coffin and burial fees for a
French prisoner in 1809.
Might be worth a look if you get to Hampshire.
-
Thanks again. I'm in New Zealand so personal lookups is a problem.
The LDS coverage of Milton, etc, seems minimal. I recently received the multi-CD set of BVRI from them and Milton and Lymington are not even in their drop down menu selection of Hants parishes !
Pretty disappointing, I can tell you.
Francis
-
Have you seen this website? (or is it yours?)
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~janp/cawte.htm
No mention of Charles though. ???
The info on this site mentions a John CAWTE living in Ashley, baptised in 1775 in Milton which predates the settlement examination.
-
I was actually trying to figure out if the William Adams (father of Sarah) is listed as a "farmer" or just "of Ashley farm" i.e. ag lab.
The Hampshire CALM database has a few entries for ADAMS in Ashley.
-
Some Milton and Lymington records have been transcribed on
http://www.knightroots.co.uk/
Can't see any CAWTEs.
-
Re the website, it belongs to Janet Penn who sent me this:
Susanna (John & Anna) 20/12/1761 buried 4/2/1772
William (John & Anna) 23/10/1763
John (John & Anna) 18/5/1766
Anna (John & Anna) 30/9/1770 buried 12/2/1772
John (John & Anna) 30/7/1775
Susanna (John & Anna) 1778
She also says:
1. John CAWTE, b. 1775, baptized 30 Jul 1775 in Milton, Hampshire, resided 1814 in Ashley, Hampshire, occupation 1814 Carpenter. He married Jane REEKS, married 14 May 1808 in Milton, Hampshire, b. 1785, (daughter of Richard REEKS and Jane CURLE) baptized 26 Jun 1785 in Sopley, Hampshire.
Children
i George b. 1808.
ii Harriet CAWTE, b. 1810
iii Elizabeth CAWTE, b. 1812
iv Mary Ann CAWTE, also known as Mary Jane Cawte, b. 1815
I think Jane Cawte WAS Charles' mother and I think this could be the family. Whether this is the correct father is the question.
This John is from an all-Milton family and has a different mother ! He may not be the carpenter ! I think the John Cawte who married Jane Reeks is the one b Lymington c 1784 with mother Mary (a name which he and son George also use).
Francis
-
Hello,
I'm new to the site and picked up on this from a Google search. This looks interesting to me.
"The Charles who died in 1849 at Southampton is the wrong man - he is a bookbinder who is clearly in the1841 census with his own family."
As far as I can tell, this Charles (Bookbinder) is my ggg grandfather, but I know zero about him and have struggled to find anything beyond the 1841 census. Although it is not your line of enquiry it sounds as though you have some info about him? If you can tell me anything about him it would be much appreciated. :)
-
Hello there
I have this Charles Cawte death cert. I can scan and email to you if you want. It's definitely the bookbinder who is in the 1841 census.
Regards
Francis
-
Hello there
I have this Charles Cawte death cert. I can scan and email to you if you want. It's definitely the bookbinder who is in the 1841 census.
Regards
Francis
Hi,
Yes please, I would really appreciate it if you could scan and send it. Do you need my address or can you send it via here??
Thanks,
Richard
-
or can you send it via here??
:o No sorry, not allowed to post certificates on the site! Please see the Copyright Policy (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/copyright.php)
Nell