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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Monmouthshire => Topic started by: Marmaduke 123 on Sunday 15 July 07 22:38 BST (UK)

Title: IGI and welsh patronymic system
Post by: Marmaduke 123 on Sunday 15 July 07 22:38 BST (UK)

I've got in an awful muddle with the way the IGI treats Welsh records. I've read somewhere that it records everything before 1813 according to the patronymic system, regardless of what the actual parish record says.

Is this correct? If so, how do I make sense of anything, and how do I search for other children of the same parents.

Anne

Title: Re: IGI and welsh patronymic system
Post by: osprey on Monday 16 July 07 12:25 BST (UK)

If you have a look at the post at the top of Wales general, I put a link on there explaining. Yes, you are right, the IGI does treat Welsh records as if they are patronymics before 1813. But, as you're posting in Monmouthshire, you might be in luck as the IGI puts Monmouthshire in England. Also, you need to double check with the parish records and there's lots on line thanks to Mike John's wonderful work.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~monfamilies/monprts.htm

If you have a particular query, post it as you never know someone might have records on cd.

Title: Re: IGI and welsh patronymic system
Post by: osprey on Monday 16 July 07 12:27 BST (UK)

http://home.clara.net/tirbach/HelpPagepearls4.html#IGIpatro

here's the link again - hope it helps.

Title: Re: IGI and welsh patronymic system
Post by: Marmaduke 123 on Monday 16 July 07 22:18 BST (UK)

Thanks Osprey

I feel a bit of an idiot because that was probably what I had read in the first place!

I do know Mike John's fabulous site (and Yahoo group) and it has been invaluable. My problem is that I am trying to track back two possible sets of parents for a George Francis born around 1805 in Llanfrechfa, who has no baptism that I have found. The family may have been baptists.

I have two possible marriages in LLanfrechfa, but the men weren't baptised there. I was hoping to find brothers and sisters of the two potential fathers to compare family names, but have fallen across the way the IGI treats the records. Unfortunately I don't know specific parishes.

Anne

Title: Re: IGI and welsh patronymic system
Post by: osprey on Monday 16 July 07 22:51 BST (UK)

You have my sympathy if you have a family of baptists. I have the same problem with one of my lines. If there's a marriage after civil registration which takes place in a baptist church, it's possible they were baptists. They could be some other non-conformist denomination. Saying that, I can't see any non-conformist places of worship mentioned on the Genuki page for Llanfrechfa.
 :-\

I can see a John Francis marrying a Mary Williams in 1793 in Llanfrechfa and having a son James baptised in 1802. Looks like he has a sister Elizabeth and his father was also John from looking at witnesses. That's a long gap before a first child. Have you tried neighbouring parishes for other baptisms? Can the record office in Cwmbran help?

Title: Re: IGI and welsh patronymic system
Post by: Marmaduke 123 on Tuesday 24 July 07 12:44 BST (UK)

Thanks for this Osprey. I have John Francis and Mary Williams as strong possibilities for the parents of George, but no proof of course.

I have other baptisms to this couple from the Mike John transcript 
                  Edward 1794
                  John 1796
                  William 1799
and the James you found in 1802.

I have found them all on the 1851 census, and they were all tinplate workers like George, except for John who is an Ag lab.

I am working through the neighbouring parishes at the moment but my guess is they either moved or became non-conformists before George was baptised, if indeed they are his parents.

Incidentally, more than half of the Francis's who married or were witnesses to marriages in Llanfrechfa between 1810 and 1840 don't appear to have been baptised there.

Anne

 

Title: Re: IGI and welsh patronymic system
Post by: osprey on Wednesday 25 July 07 19:00 BST (UK)

that does rather look like non-conformists if you're finding marriages but not baptisms.
Think most of the non-conformist records will be at the archives
http://www.llgc.org.uk/cac/cac0004.htm

Title: Re: IGI and welsh patronymic system
Post by: Marmaduke 123 on Wednesday 25 July 07 20:10 BST (UK)

Thanks Osprey. It doesn't seem as if Gwent archives have quite caught up with the digital age, but I'll try emailing again. I didn't get a reply last time I tried.

Anne

Title: Re: IGI and welsh patronymic system
Post by: Beth86 on Monday 13 August 07 11:20 BST (UK)

Gwent Record Office is v. small.  Lol.  How close are you to Gwent?

edit: Just looked at your profile, and found your location.  Now, I am going to Gwent RO tomorrow!  I can try and look for the particulars you are after!  (Mum is planning on staying all day, as in 9.30am-5pm)  :o  So if you would like I could take a look for you!

Title: Re: IGI and welsh patronymic system
Post by: Marmaduke 123 on Monday 13 August 07 14:04 BST (UK)

Thanks a lot Beth86.

I think its probably a query for the archivists rather than an actual look-up.

I am looking for the baptism of George Francis, born around 1805 in Llanfrechfa. He doesn't appear in LLanfrechfa baptisms. The family may have become non-conformists, most likely baptists, as George's daughter was married in a Baptist church.

I haven't been able to trace any records for Baptist churches in the Llanfrechfa area. Do Gwent Archives have any, or know where they might be found? Although baptists don't practice infant baptism they do keep records of births to members of their congregations - birth/dedication records. (At least my Yorkshire ones do)

Thanks again for your kind offer - I'm very grateful.

Anne

Title: Re: IGI and welsh patronymic system
Post by: Beth86 on Tuesday 14 August 07 20:07 BST (UK)

Quote from: Marmaduke 123 on Monday 13 August 07 14:04 BST (UK)

Thanks a lot Beth86.

I think its probably a query for the archivists rather than an actual look-up.

I am looking for the baptism of George Francis, born around 1805 in Llanfrechfa. He doesn't appear in LLanfrechfa baptisms. The family may have become non-conformists, most likely baptists, as George's daughter was married in a Baptist church.

I haven't been able to trace any records for Baptist churches in the Llanfrechfa area. Do Gwent Archives have any, or know where they might be found? Although baptists don't practice infant baptism they do keep records of births to members of their congregations - birth/dedication records. (At least my Yorkshire ones do)

Thanks again for your kind offer - I'm very grateful.

Anne

Hi, I was unable to actually look for George Francis' birth, but I know they do have Baptist records for the entire of Monmouthshire.
I will be going back again next week, so I will put George's name at the top of my list to search for.

I drew many blanks myself today.  Until I discovered a record of my g grandfathers burial, andd discovered that he had a baptist burial.  So next week I will be concentrating on the baptist records.

Sorry I couldn't provide you with anymore answers today, but I will take a look next week!

Beth

Title: Re: IGI and welsh patronymic system
Post by: Marmaduke 123 on Tuesday 14 August 07 20:56 BST (UK)

Thanks Beth

These non-conformists are a real pain to find aren't they? I've got lots up in Yorkshire in my family, but these seem to be the only ones on my husband's side.

Anne

Title: Re: IGI and welsh patronymic system
Post by: Beth86 on Tuesday 14 August 07 21:16 BST (UK)

Yes they are.  It makes it even harder that I have no idea where Edward Evans my g grandfather was born.  So I am seriously clutching at straws on that one!