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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: liverpool annie on Thursday 12 July 07 02:03 BST (UK)
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I'm having a hard time reading the name at the top .... I can read the rest ... just the name has me perplexed !
I'd appreciate the help !
Annie :)
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a wild guess
Unis Al_ _ pe
cheers,
g a r
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I thought it was Elvis at first - Gar !!!!!!! ;D
The Photo of the Soldier
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Is the subject a male or female?
NB: picture posted after this query ;D
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Assuming it is either Elvis or Unis - there is no i dot so I will go for
Allipe as the last name at least for now ;D
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A Male soldier !! :)
'As I Appeared At Omdurman' - ( very famous battle! )
Annie :)
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Hi Annie,
I would say Unis Allife. I don't think it is Elvis. It looks like that top of the letter is just a squiggle to me as it is not actually connected to the U...........Kris :D
MMM I have been known to be wrong before and on seeing Annie's reply, when I went to post I guess it can't be Unis - A Male Soldier ??? Move study required...........Cheers Kris :D
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Hello Annie
What about Venus??
Do you think this fellow could be on a census in the UK?
Karen
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Hi Karen !
I just posted on Armed Forces to see if there are any offcer lists available ........ bit of a longshot !! but if there was a list we could maybe match up names ........ of course that's pie in the sky ::) - but you never know ...... people here work miracles all the time !! :)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,243921.new.html#new
I have no idea about the census ..... without a name ........ or knowledge of his family - it's kind of impossible !
Annie :)
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Ok, I've changed my vote, ok hubby had a look ::), who has absolutely no interest in genealogy and he came up with... Chris
Karen ;D
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Smart thinking Annie,
That would certainly help if such a list exists. I have been googling but not getting anywhere. As to census - if we could be confident of an unusual Christian Name or Surname that may help. I have not come up with anything working along the lines of what I think I see. Trouble is the more I look at it the more I wonder if the surname even begins with an A. The top loop of all the other A's end on the right side of the stroke. This one goes way past it :-\
Kris :D
PS: Karen what does hubby see the surname as?
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I was wondering if A was the middle initial !! ::) and the first letter of the surname was S ......... ??
Annie :)
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g a r, I see you are still out there. What are you seeing now? I remember well how your eye solved one for me once ;D
Kris :D
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Hi Kris,
Have been mulling over whether the first bit is a name or a designation.
When I look at it long enough I come up with Vms but that means nothing to me.
Also, if this is a signature, some ordinary letters may be exaggerated - I will keep mulling it over.
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I was also thinking Clive .... but that is definitely an S on the end ! :P
Ooooh ! isn't it frustrating ??
I've been on this ALL day ........ I walk away and come back ................. and again !! :-\
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Elius ...? Clevis? ( I saw Chris , also, karen...)...
For the last name his pen left the page so often...could you focus on just that in the scan, annie, and maybe bump up the d.p.i & contrast?
Then maybe make our weather a little better...
and find my mom's missing cousin...hehe
J.J.
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I am afraid Annie does not have the original J.J. I resized the Photo. Can't do anything about the dpi I am afraid but here is a crop of the name (Full Size)
Hope it helps
Kris :D
PS Also now attached to post 1 as we have moved to second page ;)
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I'd definitely say Chris for the first name. I think the surname begins with A, but the rest of it is very difficult!
MarieC
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I'm dubious about Chris as it seems to be a very modern name form.
Is it possibly Amos?
I found someone on a census once that was transcribed as Chris on Ancestry but on checking it was Chas. (for Charles).
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First sight says the surname is Allife...no idea of the first name though...
Suey
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Just a possibility
Was he giving thsi picture to his sweetheart, and it actually reads 'Miss .....'
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I see Uinis A Alipe or Alife ???
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Gius ??? Odd looking G at the beginning ???
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lizdb
I thought this at first, but going back and looking at the whole thing, I think the name at the top was put on by the receiver or someone else as the writing and pen is slightly different, and the 'As I appeared........' bit was the only original writing, as the subject and the person it was sent to, knew who he was, so no name was needed.
Hope you follow my drift! :-\
Helen
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Just another thought - is the mark between CAIRO and PORTRAIT part of the printed card or a dot after an initial. I have screwed up my eyes at it, but can not make out the exact colour!!
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The first bit is exactly how my husband writes his name - Chris - uncanny! :o
The rest is really difficult! Would love to know what it says, though.
Sally
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If the A is initial for the middle name, could the surname be Alblie with the second A printed? There is a crossbar in that letter.
Kathleen
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The mark between Cairo and Portrait looks like a dash to me, printed on the card as it's slightly darker on the top like the edges on the top of the I's.
If a signature could be quite scribbled and not mark each individual letter. I could almost make Althorpe of the surname. Definitely a pe on the end anyway.
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Thank you all so much for giving it " a go " !!!!
I was so frustrated yesterday ............. I've spent hours on this .... and just can't get it !!
I still think the middle initial is A and the Surname start with S but of course it's probably something entirely different !!!! ::) ::)
Why can't people write proper like 'wot I do ??!!!!!!!!!!!!
Annie :)
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Do you have the front of the photo? Since it says "as I appeared" and the year looks like 1898, his the fellow young in the picture or old?
I'm with you on that one Annie, looks like A. is a the middle initial and the starts with a S, you can see a little bit of ink makingan S, at least a closed written letter, if you know what I mean ::)
Karen
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Mary A
you are absolutely right! I've been out shopping, and had lunch, and now looking at it, I can't imagine how I ever thought it was anything other than a printed dash ::)
On the subject of 'Chris', someone said Chris was too modern, but do we really know what people called each other? I found a scrap of paper scribbled by one of my ancestors - a birthdays aide memoir, so could be verified, and she refered to 'Ellie' and 'Bob'. It threw me for a second or two, as of course I had only previously seen official references to them as Eloisa and Robert.
As Christopher was a well known saint, there must have been Chris's about even if it was not as common a name as more recently. It could also be 'Christian'. I do think it looks like Chris ;D.
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Well girls .... he's half bald - with a big mustache !!! :)
But I imagine he's late 30's early 40's !!
Annie :)
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Hi Annie,
Someone I know whose surname begins with A, writes his forename, but prints the capital letter of his surname, which is why I wonder if that could be the case here especially with the crossbar in that letter.
Interesting puzzle you've brought us. :)
Kathleen
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Could it be Mrs .....?
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For me it says, Unis Allipe
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The dash is printed, as the colour also has a mustard in it...wish I could see the original, so we can see where the strokes began...
You may be right, Annie, about the A being a middle initial...as, although they don't join... the next letter has a bottom stroke heading left , which may indicate a capital letter ...and if you look to the bottom right of the next stroke, it too has a bottom on the stroke leading to the right, which may also mean it's part of the capital letter...
Many of the writings we are looking at have missing strokes, that's why we go crazy like this...but often the stroke of a "t" is found on the letter to the left or right ...so I thought the third letter after the script A to be a t...
Now I wonder if the whole thing after the a might be an "H"....
( a big wrench to throw into the works, haha)
frustrating and fun all at the same time... ::) ;D ::) ;D ::) ;D :P :P :P
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Annie do we know where in the world this man would have lived?
A quick look on ancestry threw up Chas Alpe, Christopher Ayliffe, Christopher Alff, and Alpe, and Philip C Albee. I have also found an Asalpe. Phew this is a hard one!!
Helen
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Actually Anni, it reminds me of my first "Autographs" I got as a young girl, when we visited Winnipeg for the Pan Am Games...water polo? I got all these scritchy scratchy names a team from I think Brazil...looked just like that...Hard to tell where one signatue ended and the other began... :P :P :P Hugs, J.
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Hi Liverpool Annie,
Perhaps it would help you to see the handwriting a bit better if you were to invert the colours to black/white background??
Sometimes it helps to see clearly this way. I did this with some horrible handwritten census pages.
Kind regards,
Tees
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I like Chas.... Uvis? Cleus?
:-X Maybe that's even an "O" at the start if the handwriting is inconsistant or as it's been implied someone else's...Ovis...Onis...
Aren't we just such a big help, Annie? ;D J. J.
I just checked and the name Hipe is used...No first names like ours, though...
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The third letter from the right, Annie, reverts back at the base, which only an "s" should do, I would think... so this could also be an unusual foreign name as Helen implied...
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? Unis A Ilife ????
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Yes, susanemily! :)
We need a life! ;D
Wecome to rootschat... ;D ;D :P :P :P what a start ....J.J.
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8) That's funny!!!! :D :D
Karen
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I think its ME that needs a new life lol....
susan.
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Hi Annie,
Is he in uniform? (what regiment?) Can you hazard a guess as to his nationality?
cheers,
g a r
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The first word isn't a name but " This" , after that it's any one's guess
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Hi Gar !!
I'm sorry I can't answer you ! ........... Neil on the Armed Forces is trying to find out .... as soon as I know - I'll share !! I promise !!
Like I said at the begining everything is pie in the sky at the moment !
Annie :)
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going back and looking at the whole thing, I think the name at the top was put on by the receiver or someone else as the writing and pen is slightly different, and the 'As I appeared........' bit was the only original writing, as the subject and the person it was sent to, knew who he was, so no name was needed.
I know what you mean :D That was my very first thought. The chap in the pic is writing to or giving the picture to a 'Miss Allife' and says 'as I appeared etc'..
are you sure it's his name Annie?
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No Suey ! ............... I'm NOT sure ...... I assumed !! and you know what they say when you assume ?? ::)
Annie :)
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Hey Annie,
What are you trying to do?! Have been looking at this every ten minutes since the middle of last night!! Even tried to write it down as I was looking at it on screen...still none the wiser!!
Regards, Emma ;)
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I didn't want to be alone in being driven CRAZY Em !!..........
And you know me ..... I like to share !!! ::) ::) ::)
But keep coming back Girlfriend !!
Annie :)
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Hi Annie,
Lots of fun.
Just wondering -- How many times must a person stare or squint at an item before becoming cross-eyed and/or dizzy?
;D ;D ;D
Kathleen
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Does this help at all?
I haven't got a clue.....only what's been suggested already :-\
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Thanks Lloydy .......... but it's not too good for me !! :P :P :P ..... I still can't read it !
But I was just thinking ..... ( I hate when I do that !! ::) ) .... I wonder if it WAS written to a woman - if her name was "Eunice "
Just thinking out loud !!
Annie :)
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Hi girlfriend......so glad to see you back in action on the boards....
I missed you xxxxxx
I wonder if the first name could be Louis?......I'm trying to think of all names ending in an S.
And...as this chap seems to have such crap*y writing......Louis is a possible?...Yes?
Where did you get the pic?...are you following my hobby of picking up pics in antique shops?....If so....You could be right...It might not be the chap's name.
I had one that I asked for help recently...It had a 2 name word on the back...the 2 words were..........
HAPPY HOLIDAYS in Swedish...LOL
Indi.....thick as a brick!
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If it was to a woman, I hope to God it wasn't a pet name....!! ::)
Regards, Emma ;)
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Emma ..... gerroff !! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Indi ! thanks Girl ! ......... could be Lewis too - I suppose !! .............. ;)
I was given a challenge by somebody who thought I would give up !! - but is driving me insane ( at least more insane than usual !! ::) )
Oh please !! ...... don't start on languages ...... I can't stand it !! ::)
Annie
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I've had another look and I think the first name is Lewis.
Edit: Just noticed you think it may be Lewis too Annie
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Hi Annie
Really glad to see you back on the board.
My guess is "thus attired as I appeared etc."
Cheers
Ruby
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What about Julius A (Hife,Hipe or Hite) all appear as names in some of the indexes.
The rest of the writing is legible so once you see the name it will probably be equally understandable.
Beth
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They couldn't find a paper and
It's a list, dahling...
Cloves and allspice...
Oh...I think I am so funny... ;D... J.
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Here is the Unknown Soldier, posted at Annie's Request. Will add him to page 1 also ...........Kris :D
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Thank you Kris !!
I appreciate that .... you're a good Girl !!
Annie :) :) :)
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You are very welcome Annie,
I just hope it helps. Like you I spent all day yesterday looking at it to no avail. Here's hoping...........Kris :D
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Chris A Alifie ?
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Well !! .... I can't work out what regiment he belongs to ! .... the pith helmet ( while it's very nice and all that .... ) tells us nothing ! wish he had a regular cap with a badge !!
He has spurs ........ !! and leather puttees ... and what is that around his neck ? is that some kind of cravat ? wonder what he had in his left pocket ?
He has quite an impressive array of medal ribbons .... but I can't see what they are .... can anybody else ??
Annie :)
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Have you still not figured it out?! Has Neil been back to you yet on the other board? This is not funny anymore...any telepathic people here?!
Regards, Emma ;)
P.S. Have got 18 photos upstairs, 15 of which contain pictures of one or more unknown soldiers - fancy working on them?! ;D
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Hello Annie - happy to see you.
On first look I wondered if it might be Claus but I think it will take more than one attempt to fathom.
I'll keep looking.........
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Thus as life...
Regards, Emma ;)
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Have you still not figured it out?! Has Neil been back to you yet on the other board? This is not funny anymore...any telepathic people here?!
Regards, Emma ;)
P.S. Have got 18 photos upstairs, 15 of which contain pictures of one or more unknown soldiers - fancy working on them?! ;D
Bring 'em on Em !! ..... but AFTER we solve THIS one !! ::) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Nothing from Neil just yet ! .....
Annie
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Hello Annie - happy to see you.
On first look I wondered if it might be Claus but I think it will take more than one attempt to fathom.
I'll keep looking.........
Thank you Emmeline !!
Annie :)
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Lewis Atlipie?
Names I have found :
Lewis Auteliffe
Lewis Atlewiska
Lews Atley
Lewis Atliss
Lewis Atlee
I also found a Luis A Tapia
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I think Ruby might have something
?? attire
Could it be a place? Except that it doesn't make sense I could say Elms attire
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Hi all,
The chap in the photograph is M. G. J. ? and the addressee is the name you are trying to decipher - NOt his name, of which you only have the initials
Miss (or Unis) Allipie
As I appeared
at "Umbrun" and
"Juif"
M.G.J.
Someone would have to consult a map of Egypt to find the Umbrun? and Juif?
Watermusic
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I thought the words were:
as I appeared at Omduran on July ?? 98 (as in 1898)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Omdurman
:D :D
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Could it be something like :- ..... All 2/ (hieroglyphic)-
I think this top line of writing may be in a different hand - just a thought ::) ::)
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I've just been having another look, and I agree with you Emmeline, about the top line of writing being in a different hand.
Will we ever know ??? :-\
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Lloydy and Emmeline
that's exactly what I was trying to say in reply 23.(can't get quotes to work) about the different writing.
I think the bloke in the photo wrote the 'As I appeared............' bit, and then someone else (the receiver possibly) put the name of the soldier on later, as you do on the back of snaps to help you remember who it was!!
Not sure about the 2/- heirogliphs bit ;D. I still think it is a name :-\ :D
Helen
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Here's what you said Helen :D (I must have missed reading that post!!!):
I thought this at first, but going back and looking at the whole thing, I think the name at the top was put on by the receiver or someone else as the writing and pen is slightly different, and the 'As I appeared........' bit was the only original writing, as the subject and the person it was sent to, knew who he was, so no name was needed.
Hope you follow my drift! Undecided
Interesting that 3 of us think the writing is different..........what does everyone else think?
Helen.....I think it's still a name ;)
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:-X and I thought the last line said Tues. 9/1 98 ;D...
Regardless, Annie said she knew what all the rest said and only needed the top line...and yes, although the script "A" is similar it does seem to be another hand...( look at all the lower case "a "...all different.... :P :P :P who knows?
Annie... I see this may be like a hotel that needs identifying... *BLINK*BLINK* J.J.
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You guys are so great doing this !! ................... :)
I think the second line says .......... 2 lief ...... meaning 2nd Lt. !! ( his rank !! )
Did they ever find that hotel JJ ? .......... I think I got too caught up in the sampling !! ::)
But I digress .............. I wish I could get some army info ... that would probably help enormously !!
Annie ::) ::) ::) ::)
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I think the second line says .......... 2 lief ...... meaning 2nd Lt. !! ( his rank !! )
It's weird how we all see things differently!!!
I've attached that bit..........
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July 9th 98
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No, they/we never did find the hotel...We were all driven crazy with it, weren't we?...speaking of which...Ll !!!you got the blue ink nicely divided from the browns in the printer's ink and now I see something else and I am not even going to say what it is.....heading deeper into the cavern of craziness.... ::) :P J.J.
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Hi Mary ! ...... sorry I didn't say that before !
My "soldier smart " friend says ................. ;)
The second and third line is absolutely:
'As I appeared at Omdurman
In Sept 98'
(look at the 'I' before 'appeared' in the second line of script and then look at the 'I' at start of the third line of script).
Also, I think the first line of script (the one in question) is done by the same hand. Look at the 't' in 'Sept' in the third line of script and compare it to the second letter of the second word or name in the first line of script. Also, his lower case 's' appears to have the same degree of slope
How about that for blinding you with science ??
Annie :-\
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Could also be a fancy "Q"
Karen
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I never thought of that Karen ! ..... we were taught to write Q's like that in the old days ........ ::)
But I don't think it's a Q !!
Annie
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As I appeared at Omdurman
In Sept 98'
I can see it now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :o, and the battle was on 2nd September 1898.
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we were taught to write Q's like that in the old days ........ ::)
does that mean I'm old now too :'(
Karen ;)
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we were taught to write Q's like that in the old days ........ ::)
does that mean I'm old now too :'(
Karen ;)
Yes Karen ! ...... but not as old as me Honey !!!!!!!!!!!!! :P
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oh, good gosh, Karen, you're still a young thing...Haha...at least we were taught to handwrite...I'd have taught my son myself had I known he wasn't getting any help at school...Guess they figure with computers and keyboards it's an old art... ::)
Sept. was what I saw, but still thought it was Tue Sept 98...so not entirely crazy, then...and don't we usually say On Sept. not in? Heehee...throw another wrench in there while I'm at it.... ;) :P J.J.
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LOL, you mean they don't teach cursive writing anymore ??? My oldest just finished grade 1, so we are still in printing mode ;D
Karen
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well ok I'll let you have the Sept but .....
"at Omdurman" then the next word is definitely not IN but ON - there's a clear circle in that word on the end of the line.
So the beginning of the next line should be 2nd or something like that but it doesn't look like it.
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Does this uniform look like his ?? :-\
http://www.art.com/asp/sp-asp/_/Aff--CONF/CTID--596082539/RFID--504682/TKID--0/pd--11720941/posters.htm
Annie
Though he doesn't have white but a leather strap across his chest !
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Hi Annie,
I found a picture that may help:
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~thinred/collection/Collection%20Pics/21Lancer
Kathleen
I copied that exactly, now find it doesn't work, but I have the picture at Thin Red Line (not the movie)
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No help in working it out :( :( :(
but looked at an old calendar for 1898 at http://www.hf.rim.or.jp/~kaji/cal/cal.cgi?1898
Any luck with the suggestion of the map of Egypt for possible names.
Like Emma it is driving me bonkers. LOL.
Sandy
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we'll try it again Kathleen...
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~thinred/collection/Corporal21stLancers1898.htm
and this is titled NCOs of 21st lancers...
http://www.qrl.uk.com/history/21_nco_300.jpg
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:-\
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Annie,
Hope it's OK to post this:
Kathleen(http://)(http://)
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Again(http://)
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~thinred/collection/Corporal21stLancers1898.htm
Sorry Kathleen, I am going to err on the side of caution. I have removed the image. Please use the link to view the image. Good Find ;D
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Maybe the flap hat over the helmut is what is bulging in his front pocket in the picture ???
Karen
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I just thought I'd pop back to see if there's been any progress :-\
I'm sure Annie likes these difficult ones ;D I have to say it's driving me mad, but I'm sure we won't be beaten (she says hopefully!!!!) :D
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Well ........... it can't be the 21st ...... those guys have chain mail epaulettes !!
I thought I might be pushing my luck with the brown leather and white !
:-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\
Seemed like a good idea at the time !
Thank you Kathleen !
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All I ever knew about Omdurman before this thread was that Winston Churchill fought there. Now I know so much more but still can't decipher the writing.
Helen, sorry to have missed your original thought on writing difference. Not everyone agrees with you, Lloydy and me though.
J.J P l e a s e tell what you have seen or I'll keep wondering about that too ::) ::)
I'm away to have a re-think..........
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You are welcome, Annie,
You helped me so much on the armed forces search that I'm pleased to be able to help with this, if possible.
Kathleen
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;D ;D Emmeline!
I've just re-read (for the 10th time) all about the Battle on Wikipedia ;D but I can't find anything remotely like the words!
Mr Lloydy has just been having a look aswell and he thinks the first word could be Lewis, and two possibilities for the second:
Either, Gillipe (or something like that!), or something completely different, and not a name......As Life ??? ???
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It was suggested earlier that the word 'on' ends the third line, when it's actually part of the name Omdurm an.
Kathleen
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According to wikipedia:
Kitchener commanded a force of 8,000 British regulars and a mixed force of 17,000 Sudanese and Egyptian soldiers. The 21st Lancers numbered about 400.
Although our man does not appear to be a 21st Lancer, that still leaves many other possibilities.
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It is driving me potty now as well.
Keep looking at it and wondering if its
Ones Alfie
Or foreign forename followed by A Ali then a dash / and (written as an &) followed by
next line "as I appeared etc etc"
Mind you, he does not look like a Mr. Ali...... so that is wrong.... doh.
Also, wondering if the date says July 9 / 98 (as I think mary said)..
Comparing the writing the one of the letters in the forename (if that is what it is !!) looks like the B in the place name. Or should that be a d ???
Then thought the whole thing was something to do with......... A life....
Is that a fly swishing brush (for use with horses in hot climates) that he is holding in his right hand.? (or is it something that goes into the top of his pith helmet?) sorry am very ignorant about uniforms etc (as you can tell)..
oh, i have really confused myself now.
back to have ANOTHER look.......
The only photo i can find - hopefully linked below: here goes:
http://www.soldiersofthequeen.comhttp://
scroll down to the bottom of the page to the search bar and type in Omdurman - then choose the second soldier down (Officer : Anglo-Egy)
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Hello...Emmeline...
I had put that I saw Tue. Sept 98...but considering this fellow's scrawl, it more than likely is 2nd Sept 98....if only because it makes more sense...unless one of you calendar geniuses wants to see what day Sept. 2 1898 worked out to be... :D hehe
Annie just wants to drive us all Batty! ::)Good job...Annie...worked for ME ;D
By the way, Annie, I saw where a painting was done and the men wore red jackets... haha....so perhaps the uniform isn't well known....and your is the best example....What were they wearing in the wee photo i linked? i see very little in that small a piccie....
and Karen I love the sun protector being in the pocket...
wot's in his right hand? feathers? Oh, yeah a horse whip, right?
http://www.wwwarketing.com/z3652_omdurman.jpg
http://www.dignubia.org/maps/timeline/ce-1898.htm
http://tinyurl.com/286myj
http://www.nls.uk/digitallibrary/churchill/2.4new.html
http://www.geocities.com/milsurpunderground/omdurman.html
http://pw1.netcom.com/~reincke/omdurman.html
http://www.omdurman.org/omdurman.jpg
http://angloboer.com/crimes.htm
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Nice big one...use the zoom...
http://tinyurl.com/ytlhe8
http://www.bristowandgarland.co.uk/_borders/Boer-War-21st-Lancers.jpg
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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ::) ;D
Regards, Emma ;)
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As you're the census genius ;) ;) ;)
Any chance you could look up some of the names suggested Em ??????????????
I wish I could find his regiment ! ...... then maybe we could get on a roll !!
Annie :) :) :)
Henry was a piece of cake compared to this guy !! ::) ::)
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Have been having a bit of a dabble with names that have come up, but nothing has jumped out so far! Are there any graphologists around here?!
Regards, Emma ;)
P.S. I love Henry...!!!
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I've been checking the census as well :-\
BTW....there are 29 Elvis's living in England in the 1891 Census ;D
Karen
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Ah, but are they still alive and working as trolley pushers at Tesco? :-\ ;D
Regards, Emma ;)
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Nile campaign...http://www.angelfire.com/mp/memorials/nile98.htm
Cameron Highlanders - 1st Bn
21st Lancers
Seaforth Highlanders-1st Bn
Lincolnshire Regiment- 1st Bn
Rifle Brigade- 2nd Bn
Lancashire Fusiliers -2nd Bn
Northumberland Fusiliers -1st Bn
Cameron Highlanders
32nd Field Battery, Royal Artillery
Royal Warwickshire Regiment - 1st Bn
Royal Irish Regiment- 1st Bn
Royal Engineers
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http://hometown.aol.co.uk/heatherasplin/lg300998.html
This is a great site, with a few names even, of men who were commended...
BRITISH TROOPS
21st Lancers.
32nd Field Battery, Royal Artillery.
37th Howitzer Battery, Royal Artillery.
2 40-prs., Royal Artillery.
Infantry Division,
1st Brigade.
1st Battalion Warwickshire Regiment.
1st Battalion Lincolnshire Regiment.
1st Battalion Seaforth Highlanders.
1st Battalion Cameron Highlanders.
6 Maxims.
Detachment, Royal Engineers.
2nd Brigade.
1st Battalion Grenadier Guards.
1st Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers.
2nd Battalion Lancashire Fusiliers.
2nd Battalion Rifle Brigade.
4 Maxims.
Detachment, Royal Engineers.
EGYPTIAN TROOPS.
9 Squadrons, Cavalry.
1 Battery, Horse Artillery.
4 Field batteries.
10 Maxims.
8 Companies Camel Corps.
1st Brigade.
2nd Egyptian Battalion.
9th, 10th, and 11th Sudanese Battalions.
2nd Brigade.
8th Egyptian Battalion.
12th, 13th, and 14th Sudanese Battalions.
3rd Brigade.
3rd, 4th, 7th, and 15th Egyptian Battalions.
4th Brigade.
1st, 5th, 17th, and 18th Egyptian Battalions.
Camel Transport.
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Hi J.J. and all
2nd September 1898 was a Friday.
From 1885 British red uniforms were superseded by khaki.
I'm now at the stage of thinking OH ME DEAR MAN why didn't you write more plainly so that now, more than a hundred years later we can read it. Excuse atrocious pun........
Do hope we can solve it ::)
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Is it possible that the name is ........ A. Hope?
Not joking, but then again some folks would look at the signature and think we didn't have a hope in **** of figuring it out. ;D
Kathleen
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OH ME DEAR MAN why didn't you write more plainly so that now, more than a hundred years later we can read it.
;D ;D ;D ;D
A. Hope?
Not joking, but then again some folks would look at the signature and think we didn't have a hope in **** of figuring it out.
;D ;D ;D ;D
I've been away from the PC since Friday.....had another look at the awful handwriting and still can't think of any more suggestions :'( :'( :'(
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Annie,
When I sat farther back, squinted, with and without my eyeglasses, I could see the name "Hope".
Haven't given up yet :) :)
Kathleen
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Have to agree with you Kathleen, I've been staring at it for ages and "Hope" keeps appearing for me too!!
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I just asked my partner to look at it and he reckons it says Unis A Flipe?
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Attached a few more names to go through
http://hometown.aol.co.uk/heatherasplin/lg300998.html
There is a QMS J alldrige there but that is a definite longshot or no hoper !!! arghh groan......
edit edit edit;;;;;; ALSO there is an Lieutenant-Colonel L A HOPE Army Service Corps
(maybe his name WAS Lewis, Lewin or whatever and the initial is A then (as some clever person her pointed out) surname HOPE
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How about the first name being Veres ?? ( just for something entirely different !! ::) )
Annie :)
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ALSO there is an Lieutenant-Colonel L A HOPE Army Service Corps
Wow, what a find!
That looks a strong possibility to me....what does everyone else think?
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Been popping in and out of this thread for days, racking my brains and getting nowhere. I have a theory that its not a name at all but just two or three words to begin the sentence or perhaps something in latin beginning with Deus.
Can't help thinking that the grammar would be wrong if it was a name i.e.
'John Smith' as I appeared ...
I am sure somebody will correct me if I am wrong but shouldn't the correct grammar it be something like
'John Smith' as he appeared ...
Just another theory to confuse everyone even more!
Cheers
Ruby
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Does that first letter look more like a 'U' than and 'L'?
Now that I've typed that in, I'm wondering if it could be a 'G'. :-\ :-\
Somehow, though I think we're getting close. :)
Kathleen
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Lewis Dai*/* :)
Pete :)
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Been digging around.
Found:
Lieut Col Lewis Anstruther HOPE (did serve in Egypt at the time 1898)
Was in the troops that gathered before Omdurman
Was in the ASC and is on Harts Army list 1888 as a Liet Col and Major (poss. acting major) as listed on Army list for 1904 as L A Hope ASCorps.
Was in Commisariat Transport Section. (see the link to the names a few posts up).
Uniform (in 1881)
was Colour: Blue
Edging: Blue Velvet
Facings: White.
Wonder if this is Annies man.
I do hope so... it would be lovely if her expert help says it is him.
And KATHLEEN who saw the name HOPE - W E L L D O N E (you may have found her man). But I know what you mean - if you sit back and squnit you CAN see hope.
There is hope after all.. LOL...(bad joke, sorry I am so tired now.)
Susan.
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Susan,
I was just looking at the link you posted, then decided to check back here. Looks very promising.
Not a bad joke at all. Did you see mine which was also posted when I was weary. (That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it.) ;D
Wouldn't it be great if we have the right one for Annie.
Kathleen
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Kathleen,
It would be superb.
I (like everyone I suppose) keep coming back to this thread for the elusive mr.........
I dont know about you but I feel done in....
Fingers crossed.
Susan.
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Susan,
I don't know how many people participated in the search, but what an effort by all!! Hope it's the right one.
I know it's late there, and Annie's off line. :) :)
Kathleen
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Ahhhhhhhh!!!!!
I said he was Lewis...I said he was Lewis.........I did I did .......really I did!
OK....I said it was Louis.......but that is close!
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Well done to everybody...I am sure that this is the right bloke....although I'm still having a bit of trouble with the Hope part even when I squint......but I recon that the ink is missing in some of the letters.
What a wonderful effort.
Indi....
Having a cold beer now in the 100F heat!
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Excellent detective work Susan.....well done!
We shall all have to wait and see what Annie thinks (fingers crossed) :D
Indi......I envy you drinking cold beer in the 100F heat - you don't know how lucky you are. It's rained solidly all day in Shropshire :'(
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Indie. Where are you.
Its horrid here. Mind you it is gone midnight now...... only flying insects visible amongst the blackened night.
You did, you did, you did say lewis. And I think you are right, there are bits of the writing missing.
So, well done to you.
A great joint effort (IF it is Annies man).
Let us (i darent say it) HOPE it is.
Susan.
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Congratulations Susan,
Well done. I could see Hope (after it was mentioned ;)) The little dash
He had a daughter
http://www.thepeerage.com/p19750.htm
Married Sep 1/4 1887 Marylebone 1a 1169
Don't see the birth of Olive Georgina
Cheers Kris :D
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Hi Lloydy...
No..you wouldn't like it....100F is 'orrible....the air conditioner is running full tilt and the electric meter is flying around....kerching...kerching.....kerching....the electric bill will be mind boggling!
The cold beer is Ok though ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
susan...I am in the sunny wastelands of California - 45 miles east of Los Angeles...here is a web cam that is 10 miles from my house...
http://www.earthcam.com/usa/california/riverside/
But I am a Brummie......and would kill for a few drops of rain for me tommy arter plants...they are gasping....so send me some...ta.
Can't wait for Annie to get here!....what a wonderful thread this has been
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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a pictorial case for Lewis A Hope
cheers,
g a r
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Hi Gar,
Is that what I saw?? THAT IS WHAT I SAW!! :)
Kathleen
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Gar...YES...YES....YES.......I had a hunch that part of the L was missing.....
Well Done....great pictorial
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Funny, isn't it that I couldn't see the L, but I could see the HOPE. :)
Kathleen
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the only thing is... It is a rare person who would construct an "L" in that fashion
but I have seen a lot of different styles of writing on census returns so cannot say that an "L" would never be written that way
g a r
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Several years ago I spent the better part of a summer (when not gardening) transcribing some archival papers, so I rather enjoyed this.
The real challenge for me was that there was really nothing for comparison.
Also, was reading signatures on the Ulster Covenant recently. Some of them are equally puzzling.
Kathleen
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gar.....
I think the L is fine......grrr...I wish i knew how to draw on the image like you did...but I think that what is missing is part of the up stroke....
Think...from the bottom ..curve around and go up...big loop at the top...come down curl back at the bottom then straight to the next letter.
Like this example that I found
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Clever, clever Rootschatters. Annie will be more than happy I'm sure - can't wait to hear from her.
Now his name can be correctly recorded - Hope beats eternal as they say........
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Me gaster is flabbered ! ;D ;D ;D ;D
I checked on the other thread when Susan found him .... and now this !! ;)
Really looks like him doesn't it ..... ?? ....... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Where do we go from here ?? ...... I don't know !!
But you guys are GREAT !! talk about sticktoitiveness !! :P
Thank you !
:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
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Do you want to try reuniting this photo with a living relative? (Which of course presumes that you are in possession of said photo)
cheers,
g a r
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I found these but I don't understand them !! ..... here we go again !!
http://www.thepeerage.com/p19750.htm
and this is his daughter !
http://www.thepeerage.com/p19607.htm
Annie :P
PS Yes Gar ....... eventually if we can !!
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For my part, Annie, you are welcome.
What a team on here!!
Strange isn't it how for a moment we see something in those letters, then it's gone, then it's back. Reminds me of my childhood habit of finding faces in the wallpaper.
Regards, Kathleen
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Hi Kathleen !
So many miracles are worked on this board ...... I'm blown away on a regular basis !! :)
What a great bunch of addicts ................. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Annie
PS We used to do that with the wardrobe - when we were kids !! .......... we saw eagles - witches - all kinds of fascinating things !!
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Yes Annie - I saw one of those witches in the wardrobe when lying in bed - age about six -and screamed the house down.
Likely that Olive Georgina was born in Egypt ? Where do we go from here ?
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This is what I got from the peerage site: (Istand to be corrected on this)
Lewis Anstruther Hope
1) Olive Georgina Hope married Colonel Norman Valentine Blacker
1) Cecil Hugh Blacker (General Sir) married Felicity Mary Buxton (her 2nd marr.)
1) Terence Blacker
2) Philip Blacker married Susan Davies
2) Joan Olive Blacker
several of these could still be alive.
I suppose we would have to double check these
cheers,
g a r
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Found this on Rootsweb.com World Connect Project:
Robert Bain's Family Tree
Lewis Anstruther Hope
Col. and M.P.
Birth 4 Nov 1855
Death 2 May 1929
Father Archibald Hugh Hope b. 17 Jan 1820
Mother Caroline Elizabeth Jones
Marriage 3 Sept. 1888 - Lucy Elizabeth Palmer
Children - Hugh Lewis Hope b. 20 Jun 1897
Helen Jean Hope
Olive Georgina Hope
There's lots more, but no doubt needs checking for accuracy. Could be helpful.
Kathleen
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Don't know if this will help, but it seems that in the following years, his details were as follows:
1902-3
(Dublin)
Blackrock 1249 Hope Colonel Lewis A. .........63 Merrion Sq
Pg 73
1916
(York)
Stmfrd Bdge....11 Hope Lewis A., Colonel .. .. .. Gate Helmsley Ho
Pg 5
1929
(Coventry Group)
Hope Col. Lewis A, C.B, Capesthorne.......Kenilworth 180
Pg 15
(Same place in 1928)
Mrs. Lewis A Hope was at Capesthorne until at least 1934 (that's the last record in the phone book anyway)
Regards, Emma ;)
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Was he born in India?
1871
1.2. & 7 Victoria Crescent, St Helier, Jersey
Lewis Hope, Boarder, 15, Scholar, India
RG10/5759 F 44 P 17
Regards, Emma ;)
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These are extremely upper class people
http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/british/hh4bz/hope01.htm
His fathers marriage in Bombay
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01qw/
Cheers Kris :D
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You're just too good at this Kris!!
Regards, Emma ;)
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Hi Annie,
http://www.thepeerage.com/p19628.htm
A bit more Hope/Blacker info here - scroll down quite a way. Who are we looking for specifically? Are we tracing via Olive or what?!
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Bit more....!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terence_Blacker
Regards, Emma ;)
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Don't know about that. You did well to find him in the 1871 census Emma. I was having no luck at all with him. I have been trying for hours. ;) Presume they must have been in France or India a lot of the time, particularly with your find listing his birth there. ;)
Cheers Kris :D
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That's what happens with these people who go overseas!! So much easier to find if they didn't stray far like my lot!!
General Sir Cecil Blacker's obituary
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20021023/ai_n12658115
Regards, Emma ;)
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Mr Philip Blacker (no titles as far as I can tell!) There is a small photo if you hover in the biography section...!! Any family characteristics?!
http://www.philipblacker.com/
Regards, Emma ;)
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OK, 1891
7 Langhorn Gardens, Folkestone, Kent
Caroline E Hope, Head, W, 70, Living on own means, France (British Subject)
Sophia M Hope, Daughter, S, 34, Living on own means, France (British Subject)
Helen J Hope, Granddaughter, 2, Reading Berkshire
Elizabeth Fuller, Serv, S, 32, Nurse (Domestic), Shinfield? Berkshire
RG12/750 F 118 P 45
Regards, Emma ;)
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1901
Down House, Frant, Sussex
Helen Jean Hope, Daughter, 12, Reading Berkshire
Hugh Lewis Hope, Son, 3, Folkestone Kent
Elizabeth J Fuller, Serv, M, 42, Nurse Domestic, Shinfield Berkshire
Ellen Dennison, Serv, S, 44, Cook Domestic, London Mayfair
Bertha E Coombs, Serv, 20, Housemaid Domestic, Folkestone Broadmead
Fanny Groves, Serv, 17, S, Nursemaid Domestic, Reading Berkshire
RG13/895 F 22 P 6
Regards, Emma ;)
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According to the Rootsweb Robert Bain Family Tree :
His father, Archibald Hugh Hope, Maj. Gen. was born Jan 17, 1820, died Mar 8, 1890, son of Hugh Hope b. Inveresk With Musselburgh, Midlothian, Scotland and Isabella Gray Mackay b. Abt. 1801 in Scotstoun, Peebles, Scotlland.
There is no further information about his mother.
Lewis A. Hope died May 2, 1929
Mrs. Lewis A. Hope died July 21, 1952
(I often use the Rootsweb site as a beginning, or guide then seek verification of that info.)
Kathleen
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Look at you Guys !! .......... ;D ....... I leave to go to bed and you have everything all sorted out ! ....... thank you all so very much ! ;) ;) ;)
My friend is going to see if he can hunt down a few Army Service Corps guys to see if we can get more military information !
Thanks again !
Annie :)
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Glad that more people found the Capital "H"... ;) Hope it is the right one, annie...J.J.
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Marvellous joint effort.
Susan.
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Absolutely fantastic (http://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/more/bigs/a115.gif)
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Check this out ......... woohoo !!
Only thing is ..... it doesn't mention Omdurman but he was in Khartoum in 1898 .... which was very close !!
HOPE, Col. Lewis Anstruther. C.B. , 1898,
late A.S.C. ; Deputy-Assistant Director of Remounts
; late A.Q.M.G. on headquarter Staff in
Northern Command: Member of King's Bodyguard
for Scotland, Royal Company of Archers ;
b. Madras; 4 Nov. 1855 ; 4th s. of late Major-
Gen. A. H. Hope and Caroline e. d. of late
Sir Richard Jones, G.C.B. ; M. 1887, Lucy, d.
of G. Palmer of Reading ; two d. Educ. :
private school, Jersey. Joined army, 1874 ; took
part in Zulu Campaign, 1878-79 (medal with
clasp); Nile Campaign, 1884-85(medal with clasp,
bronze star) ; Soudan Campaign, 1898, battle of
Khartoum (despatches, C.B., Soudan medal,
Egyptian medal with, clasp) ; D.A.A.G. Headquarters,
Cairo, Egypt, to 1899; on special
service S.Africa 1900-1 (despatches, medal,
with two clasps); D.A.A.G. Headquarters,
Ireland, 1901-2; A.Q.M.G. Scottish Command,
1902-7; A.D.C. to the King. Recreations:
hunting, golfing. Address : 166 Sandgate Road,
Folkestone, Club : United Service.
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Annie,
Wonderful that you have that info.
I think I read somewhere during our busy weekend that some who were at Omdurman were sent to Khartoum . :-\
What's next with this?
Kathleen
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As you can see from this map, Omdurman is right next door to Khartoum..in fact on another map it shows that they are just across the river from each other.
Maybe they awarded Khartoum medals that covered the whole shebang?
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Hi Girls !!
I'm not really sure where to go from here - to be honest !! :P
My friend is trying to find information from the museum .... it would be cool to get a photo of this soldier - to see if he's the same man as in ours !!
Annie :)
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Some more useless information:
From Mr Indi's book :The History of the British Army; Charles Messenger
Re the Battle of Omdurman:
Noteworthy was a charge made by a youthful subaltern of the 4th Hussars, Winston Churchill.
I wonder if Lewis met Winnie?
And from the same book, here is a photo of a painting showing the uniforms at the battle. There is no attribution to the painting so I'm sorry but I can't give one.
Image Removed: Sorry can't find exact picture online although google images will produce similar
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In one of the many links posted on Sunday, there was a picture of Churchill at Omdurman. I noticed that the wide white band on his helmut is the same as the one on L.A. Hope's. May be helpful. :-\
Kathleen
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Hi, im many years our for this but wanted to say that, Lewis A Hope was my great great grandfather, my Gran was Cecil Blackers sister (Olive'd daughter and son) and Terence and Philip Blacker are my second cousins. Maybe you've sorted out your mystery now, but if i can help do let me know! Also, any chance of a copy of a the photo somehow? :-)
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Hi Wissett,
Welcome to RootsChat, I am very sorry to say that Liverpool Annie has not been online since 2010 :'(
Kind Regards
Sarah
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Hi, im many years our for this but wanted to say that, Lewis A Hope was my great great grandfather, my Gran was Cecil Blackers sister (Olive'd daughter and son) and Terence and Philip Blacker are my second cousins. Maybe you've sorted out your mystery now, but if i can help do let me know! Also, any chance of a copy of a the photo somehow? :-)
Wissett, could you provide some more information on your side of the Blacker family, please? According to my records, you and I share a great-great-great-grandfather in George Palmer, whose daughter, Lucy Elizabeth Palmer, married Col. Lewis Anstruther Hope. I have the details of Cecil Blacker's family, but not of your grandmother's side - the only detail I have is of a Jane or Joan Blacker.
Also, if you can confirm, I am assuming that Helen Jean Hope and Hugh Lewis Hope (Olive Georgina Hope's elder sister and younger brother respectively) had no children - Helen never married as far as I am aware, and Hugh died aged 24 four months after getting married.
If you could help that would be really appreciated as I am trying to put together a comprehensive list of all the descendants of George Palmer.
Many thanks.
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Can you message me and I can give you my contact details to chat further
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Hello Wissett and Petwick
Just sticking my nose in to say you both need to reply to this (or any other thread) a couple of times more to bump up your posts to 2 or 3 before you can use the Private Messaging system. Just "Noted" will do.
Good luck!
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wissett
Happy to do so, but I note 'alpinecottage's' comment about more posts required before we can pm!
Petwick
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Noted!
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Try now! :D