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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Clare => Topic started by: ginny44 on Monday 09 July 07 15:33 BST (UK)
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I wonder if someone could advise me on how I would find any information on my great great great grandparents. Simon was born in county Clare Ireland in 1838, he is recorded in the census as being a shoemaker, and his wife Johanna, also born in Clare. They came to Liverpool and had 9 children. I can find them on the 1871 census in Liverpool, but no further information can be found.
I don't know what parish they came from so I don't even know where to start but I would appreciate any advice that could put me in the right direction.
Thankyou
Gina
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Please forgive me for bumping my post up, but as I've not had any replies since I posted this last July, perhaps someone might respond if I put it forward again.
Fingers crossed.
Gina
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Gina, you've probably had no replies yet because it is very difficult to do Irish research without a place (parish if not townland).
Were any of the children born in Ireland by any chance? did they marry in Ireland or England? (marriage certificate should give fathers' names and occupations)
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Thank you for your prompt reply, any reply is better than none.
Unfortunatly all of their children where born in Liverpool, so I don't have anything to go on.
They show up on the UK census which states that they where both born in Clare, but I have no idea what Parish, although I have been told that there are a lot of Mangan families in Kilrush. I presume that they both died in Liverpool too. It's so frustrating as I would love to find out more about this family. The place where Simon worked as a shoemaker was only a stones throw away from where I was born too, and I would love to know more about them.
Many thanks for your advice.
Gina
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Gina- where did they marry- England or Ireland?
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Hello
I can only presume Ireland. I will go through my records and find out what year their first born was born which will give some idea as to what year they may have married and get back to you later.
Thank you very much for your time and interest.
Gina
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Hello again aghadowey
Here is a list of their children.
Annie born 1863
Bridget born 1869
Catherine born 1874
Margaret 1871
Michael born 1967 (shoemaker)
Thomas born 1865 (Rivetter/shipmaker)
Ellen born 1878
Presuming they married before Annie was born then they could have married around 1861-62 or even a little earlier.
I can't say for certain if they were married in Ireland but presume so as they were both from Clare and I presume they travelled here together. But you never know, they may have met here and married here.
Thanks for your help.
Gina
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Unfortunately it looks like they married before 1864 (start of civil registration of Catholic marriages in Ireland).
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Hi
So it looks like that unless I know the parish I am never going to find them on record?
Oh well...
Thanks again
Gina
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Gina,
do you have any idea of Johannas maiden name ?
Carol
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No sadly I don't. I can't find their marriage any where. I presume that because they are both from Clare, they married there, but I have learnt never to presume. I can't find them on the Liverpool BMD either around the year their first son was born, so I can't trace them to get hold of their marriage cert either.
I wish I knew her maiden name, because it would help me research her line too.
Thanks Carol
Gina
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Hi Gina
have been digging around since I last mailed you, found the family on the 1881 census with additions to your 1871 census
Michael age 14
David Snape age 25 son in law
Mary Snape age 20 daughter.
address 92 Mill Street Toxteth Park, all the people you mention before are still on there. With Mary being the oldest the marriage of Simon and Johanna could be 1860/61.
The 1891 census shows the famil still living in Toxteth Park address looks like Postance Place
Johanna 47 (may be telling a little white lie about her age) Widow, news vendor
Ellen age 12 news vendor
Margaret age 19, leather worker
Michael age 21 General Lab.
From this you can take it that Simon died between 1881 and 1891.
Of course as you say you cannot take anything for granted !! before I followed up these above census pages I looked firstly for Simon Mangan in 1891
Oxford Street, Bilston, Staffordshire
Elizabeth Southall 46, head, widow, coal dealer
Elizabeth Southall 28 dau. general servant
Stephen McMan, 23, lodger, shoemaker born bromsgrove
Simon Manken age 52, widow, born Kibrush, Co Clare, shoemaker
Ref Class RG12 Piece 2243 Folio 4
now, it looks a bit odd , the enumerator spells the name Manken and not Mangan, but they also spell the place name wrong, it should be Kilrush. I have tried (now dont laugh !) saying the name Mangan in a clare accent and it does come out as Manken sounding ! Its a bit of a long shot with him saying he is a widower and with the name spelt oddly, but I just have a feeling about it, we cannot say for sure that it isn't him. If I was you I would get in touch with St Senans Church in Kilrush and ask for birth details and marriage detail, what have you got to lose ?
Carol
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Hello Carol
Thank you very much for this information, which I find quite intriguing. Simon's wife Johanna is down as a widow in Liverpool on the 1891 census so it could be that he has left her, and to save face, she has told people that he is dead. If it is him then, I wonder why he is living in Staffordshire? I think it is him, as it would be too much a coincidence that the year he was born, the place he was born, and the same occupation? all fits.
Thanks for giving me the church details and I will certainly contact the priest to see if they hold any records about him and his marriage.
I shall keep you updated.
Many thanks
Gina
p.s can I also ask if you know of a place called Kirena in Ireland.
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Hello Gina
I have been looking through all the census pages, just quickly mind, and have found something even more interesting, it looks like your Simon had other family in the Toxteth Park area, as I said just a quick glance and I have found other Mangans born in Ireland that are shoemakers all living in the same area of Liverpool. I will take a more careful look later and see if they come up with anything. Just to make sure - did you know that there were more family members (save me duplicating information).
Sorry I have never heard of the place in Ireland, where did you get the name from ?
Carol
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It is possible that 'Kirena' is only a phonetic version of an actual place. See www.thecore.com/seanruad to find names of townlands and parishes (be sure to change default setting from exact match to search for part of a place).
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Hi Gina
I have been looking through the census pages for the area of Toxteth Park. The family I thought might be a help turns out to be from Dublin Ireland, here it is anyway
1851 Census
Address 31 Clark Street
Toxteth Park
Class H0107 Piece 2186 Folio 482
Thomas Mangan Head 46, shoemaker, born Dublin
Catherine wife 40
Nicholas 20 son Apprentice shoemaker, born Dublin
Catherine daug 7 born L'pool
James son 8 born l'pool
Margaret dau 18 born Dublin
Maria dau 9 born L'pool
Richard son 3 born L'Pool
Thomas son 5 born L'Pool
Margaret Byrne age 56 lodger, washer woman, born Kings County Ireland.
Carol
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Hi Carol
I know for sure that my gggg was called Simon because I have a copy of his daughters marriage cert, Ellen Mangan born 1878 who married my ggg grandfather Henry Murphy in Liverpool, which states her father as Simon and occupation shoemaker....although I have learnt not to take anything for granted.
I learnt from the census that Simon may have called himself James, although, for all I know James may have been his middle name or vice versa. On the 1891 census his wife Johanna is down as a widow, but looking at what you found, I think he may have left her and gone to work elsewhere.
I think I need to get a copy of Ellen's birth certificate to find out her mothers maiden name, so I think that's my next step, but I'm finding this interest of mine a bit too expensive.
I got the name Kirena from the census when Simon is down as James but the rest of the family including his wife's name Johanna fits. It says that he came from Kirena in Ireland.
I think it was on the 1871/1881 census, but as I no longer have access to ancestry I can't take another look.
Thanks again for your very much appreciated help.
Gina
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HI Gina
this fella is definitely very elusive and must be really driving you mad !!
I took a look on the census pages that you mention James Mangan, it was the 1871 census but it only says Ireland and not the town, also he is down as a "Provisions Dealer" and not shoemaker. Although I agree it looks like the same family, unless you know for sure that he used the name James as well as Simon, I wouldn't count on it. The 1881 census is as far as I can see the only census where they are all together. As Simon is not with them in the 1891 census and Johanna states she is a widow I would be inclined to find out if Simon had died by then, if not you could take it that the Simon I found in Bilston could possibly be him. Simon is not a very common name at that time. I am not sure but I dont think that marriage certs would have the mothers maiden name on them, I have only had dealings with Irish ones and they dont mention the mother at all and some not even the Father ! As I said before the Simon in Bilston states he was born in Kilrush, County Clare and this man is the only Simon Mangan I can find on the census pages of England in any county that matches his description. St Senans RC Church. Toler Street, Kilrush, County Clare, dont charge anything for looking up Baptisms, they are really friendly and helpful, if you can wait until August I can take a look for you when I go over, but you might want to sort it out before then ! I will keep my eyes peeled for you.
Carol
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Gina
after reading your last mail again I took another look on the census pages, did you know that The Murphys were living with a Mangan family - Head Thomas in 1871, your Henry wasn't born then, I wanted to trace Henry up to 1901 just to see if his father in law Simon/James might be staying with them at any point but alas no ! Just Henry, Ellen and Kids.
Carol
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Hi Carol
I have sent an e-mail to the parish church you mentioned but as of yet not received a reply. When and if I do I shall let you know if they find anything.
I do have a copy of Ellen and Henry's marriage cert but foolishly didn't copy on to disc/hard drive, or print off any of they census, so I can't remember what I found when I had access to Ancestry last year.
I shall root out the marriage cert and anything else I have a let you know tomorrow.
Thanks for your help and interest, have a good evening.
Gina
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Hello Gina,
I wonder if you could get in touch with me regarding Simon Mangan & Johanna.
Simon is my wifes 2nd Great grandfather and I have some family history and a tree for you to view.
Moderator comment: e-mail address removed to prevent spamming and other abuse. Please use the personal message system to exchange e-mail addresses etc. Thanks
Kind Regards,
Tom.
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Hello Gina,
After reading all the posts in this section I have found this info do you think this might help
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I found this on this website maybe looking for the Mangan name in Ireland will bring up more results if you look under Mangin
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MANGIN: Thomas
b: 21 Dec 1842 Co. Clare, Ireland/d. 08 Mar 1928
p: Daniel and Bridget (nee Mulqueen) Mangin
m: 21 Feb. 1871 (co. mar. index. v.4 p.50)
to: Hanora Mullins (aka Nora, Honora)
b: 20 Nov 1846 Co. Clare, Ireland/d. 24 Dec 1936
p: Patrick 'Patt' and Bridget 'Biddy' (nee Barry) Mullins (both bon Co. Clare)
children:
Daniel Henry/b: 13 Dec 1873 (co. bir. index v.1-A p.262)
Thomas and Hanora Mangin are buried at Calvary Cem., Manitowoc #43 (see Mancin)
(Hanora Mullins was researcher's great-grand aunt - see contributors' page)
Best Regards,
Tom.
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Hi Tom
Do you think this Thomas is "Simon Mangan" or a relation. The census says he was born 1838, so the date 1842 is within range, and that Honora Mullins is Johanna?
I have also sent you an e-mail.
Kind regards.
Gina
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Hi
My Mam is a Mangan from Co Clare. Her dad was John Mangan born in Bunratty Co Clare in 1882. His dad was from Killuran Co Clare and married Mary Hayes from Bunratty. The problem is that my grandad was the only surviving male in the family and had only 1 daughter, my mam, so the name has died out. it would be great to know that there are other Mangans out there from the same line.
Any help would be appreciated
Margaret
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Hi
My Mam is a Mangan from Co Clare. Her dad was John Mangan born in Bunratty Co Clare in 1882. His dad was from Killuran Co Clare and married Mary Hayes from Bunratty. The problem is that my grandad was the only surviving male in the family and had only 1 daughter, my mam, so the name has died out. it would be great to know that there are other Mangans out there from the same line.
Any help would be appreciated
Margaret
Further to my post my grandads 2 sisters Agnes and Delia Mangan also emigrated to Merseyside. They lived in Chester for most of their adult lives. Agnes married there and Delia lived with her sister and husband . both sisters died in the 1970's. Agnes grandchildren still live around the Chester area.
Margaret
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Hi Margaret
I have sent you a pm.
Regards.
Gina
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Hi
My Mam is a Mangan from Co Clare. Her dad was John Mangan born in Bunratty Co Clare in 1882. His dad was from Killuran Co Clare and married Mary Hayes from Bunratty. The problem is that my grandad was the only surviving male in the family and had only 1 daughter, my mam, so the name has died out. it would be great to know that there are other Mangans out there from the same line.
Any help would be appreciated
Margaret
Further to my post my grandads 2 sisters Agnes and Delia Mangan also emigrated to Merseyside. They lived in Chester for most of their adult lives. Agnes married there and Delia lived with her sister and husband . both sisters died in the 1970's. Agnes grandchildren still live around the Chester area.
Margaret
Hi Margaret, I just found this post, my great grandfather Michael Mullins married Bridget Mangan from Bunratty co Clare and her father was John Mangan. I wonder could these be the same family?
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My great grandmother was Mary mangan from Clare, her dad was John mangan