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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: stanleymansion on Wednesday 04 July 07 20:55 BST (UK)
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Hi!
I have been trying to trace back from a marriage between Charles Henry Browne and Eliza Emily Holmes on 1 July 1903 in Glasgow. I have the details of this from Scotlands People.
At the time of the marriage Charles was resident at 33 Meadow Park Street, Glasgow. His parents are recorded as George Browne and Mary Browne (nee Atkinson). Charles' dob was about 1877/1878. I don't seem to be able to find this family anywhere before the marriage having checked on both Scottish and English census' back to 1881.
Can anyone help please?
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Hi stanleymansion,
I think Charles may have been born in England. There's an entry on FreeBMD;
March 1877
Browne Charles Henry W. Derby 8b 478
Perhaps Eliza was also English?
September 1879
Holmes Eliza Emily Sculcoates 9d 135
Good luck searching. :)
hume24
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Hi
What was Charles's occupation on his Marriage cert, also that of his father George. It would help people when searching :)
Regards.
Monica
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Thank you both for your very quick replies!
Yes Eliza was born in Sculcoates, Hull and I have been able to trace her family back quite a long way back. Charles has proved to be less straighforward! The birth entry in England looks very promising and I'll follow that up.
Charles' occupation was something like "Shoe Merchant/ Manager" (bit difficult to read!). George was a Mechanical Engineer.
Thanks :)
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Apart from Hume's entry in England, there are also a couple of interesting entries that you could follow up in Wales ::)
There is a possible marriage showing on FreeBMD:
Marriages Sep 1875
Acteson (Atkinson?) Mary Newport M 11a 291
Brown George Newport M 11a 291
And a birth:
Births Mar 1878
Browne Charles Henry Abergavenny 11a 55
1881 Census entry in Wales looking good apart from mother's name:
George BROWN Head M Male 23 b. Canon Pyan, Hereford, England Engine Cleaner (Fac Lab)
Jessielene BROWN Wife M Female 26 b. Trostrey, Monmouth, England Dressmaker
William G. BROWN Son 5 b. Trostrey, Monmouth, England
Charles H. BROWN Son 3 b. Abergavenny, Monmouth, England
Alice J. BROWN Daur 2 m Abergavenny, Monmouth, England
Susan FORKSWELL Visitor 23 b. Llancayo, Monmouth, England, Dressmaker
William G. LAWTON Lodger 18 b. Willenhall, Stafford, England, Engine Cleaner
The same family, with more children (but not Charles Henry) show in 1901 in Abergavenny, Monmouthshire, with mother as Mary. Father George is a stationary engine driver (or something like that!).
Something to work on... :)
Regards.
Monica
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Hi Monica,
I think your one is better. ;D I can't see a Charles in 1881 (born Lancashire, the one I posted) with parents George and Mary. I've had a look on the 1901 index on Ancestry for Charles but can't see him in Scotland. Who knows that they could have him transcribed as, though!
hume24
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Just firming up on the entry for a Mary Atkinson, wife to George Brown. There is a Mary Atkinson b. 1852 born is Trostrey Monmouth showing in both the 1861/71 Censuses with her family. By 1871, Mary is down as a dressmaker which is what is showing for Jessielene/Mary from 1881-1901.
From the 1871 Census in Pontypool with some familiar names:
Willm Actison 50, water bailiff, b. Oxford
Elizh Actison 47, b. Blackwood ITALY(!)
Mary Actison 19, dressmaker, b. Trostrey
Chas Actison 15, asst. water bailiff, b. Trostrey
Maria Actison 13, dressmaker, b. Trostrey
Frances Actison 10, b. Trostrey
Henry Actison 8, b. Trostrey
Regards.
Monica
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Hi Hume and Monica!
Quite compelling finds here! There has never been any mention of Welsh ancestry in the family but that's not to say there wasn't any and this looks very promising.
Had a quick look on the 1901 English Census and oddly I've turned up a
Charles Henry Browne age 28 Tutor Trinity College Harrogate Single Born Queens County, Mount Mellick, Ireland
I say oddly because his 'wife to be' was living in Harrogate in 1901! The age of 'this' Charles is a few years out against the marriage and death record of our Charles and I'm not sure about the change in occupation from Tutor to Shoe Merchant/Manager by 1903. On one of his daughter's birth certificates in 1904 he is a Bootmaker manager. He died in 1917 aged 40 in Edinburgh. At that time he was recorded as as what looks like Spirit Merchants Assistant. Perhaps a man of many talents!
What do you folk think my next move should be? I don't know the first thing about tracing facts in Ireland!! If the Welsh family belong to Charles what on earth could have happened to him after 1881? I'll carry on looking with what we have here and see what else, if anything turns up!
Thanks to you both ;)
Lyn
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Hi Lyn
Hunch tells me your best bet is the Abergavenny Charles Henry. He is living in England in 1891, staying with his aunt by the look of it, in East Ham Essex:
Charles H Brown 12, nephew, b. Abergavenny
Frederick Powell 47
Elizabeth Powell 40, . Usk (same parish as Mary) Monmouth
Emily E Powell 17
Haven't found him as yet in 1901.
Regards.
Monica
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Hi ;)
Spent the morning checking various references and trying to verify the different sources and yes Monica i think you're hunch is definitely a go-er!
I've gathered a few more bits of info which would seem to confirm the Welsh family.
On Charles Henry's death cert 01.07.1917 Edinburgh, we have :-
Father George Browne Mechanical Engineer
Mother Mary Browne (Maiden surname not given ::) ) (deceased)
So we know Mary was around in 1901 and again in 1903 at Charles' wedding but gone by 1917. I have found a death:-
Mary Browne born abt. 1857 died Q3 Sep 1908 age 51 Abergavenny.
George was still alive in 1917 and it ocurred to me that my uncle's middle name is George and I have a vague recollection of my Gran telling me that he was named after someone who was dying at the time he was born. Can't remember who she said though as I was very young at the time! So took a shot at that and lo and behold:-
George Browne age 78 died Q1 1935 Hereford. (He would be my uncle's great grandfather) Hmm.. I wonder; have emailed him to see if he knows who he was named after! Although the family lived in Abergavenny George as we know was born around the Hereford area. Perhaps after Mary's death he moved back to be closer to family or something??
Also to confirm Charles Henry' s whereabouts in 1891, I have traced the marriage of the aunt
Elizabeth Acteson (Atkinson?) to Frederick Powell Pontypool Q3 1870. That ties that end up!
It occurred to me that the details quoted for the Charles Henry in 1901 census at Harrogate could maybe have been misquoted ?? Perhaps he is our man. Not sure on that, but it does seem a strange coincidence that Eliza Emily Holmes in the same small town of Harrogate marries someone of the same name 2 years later!
Do you think any certs may be of any value? I'm fairly sure on all this now just a slight doubt with being unable to trace another Charles Henry in 1901.
You have been a real star Monica with all your hunting. Thanks so much
Lyn :)
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Hi Lyn
Clever you, you certainly have found the links with Wales and this Charles's parents year of deaths certainly help as they at least fit what you are seeing on Charles's marriage and death certs in respect of whether his parents were alive or deceased.
I'm not so sure about the Harrogate Charles. Age is out as is occupation and place of birth, too many wrongs for it simply to be a transcription error.
It's hard to know how to proceed next. What you really need is confirmation of your Charles's birth place and that will only really come from the 1911 census...and that's another 3 years wait :'( You have the target family now but not the final verification.
Fingers crossed your Uncle remembers something about who he was called after!
Regards.
Monica :)
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Hi Monica :)
...and so the hunt goes on but with an extra person!
My uncle was named after GEORGE BROWNE who died age 21 on 10 Feb 1935 with TB, the day he was born. I have only a vague memory of someone mentioning this George so it came as a surprise to me! I have however managed to get a photo of The Browne Family, Charles Henry, Eliza Emily, Emily May, Violet Ethel and George!! So that was brilliant.
George, I believe must have been born in Edinburgh, as were his two sisters, Emily and Violet. Straightforward enough but as Scottish records only go up to 1906 I can't check his birth record. Unfortunately I can't locate a death record although it seems clear that he died in Q1 1935 in Blackpool, the registration district is Fylde. Perhaps mistranscribed?? :-\
I'm still working on the Welsh ancestors so yep, fingers crossed!
Lyn :)