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Census Lookups General Lookups => Census Lookup and Resource Requests => Census and Resource Discussion => Completed Census Requests => Topic started by: Ewan on Wednesday 27 June 07 19:55 BST (UK)
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If I can't find an ancestor's details on the IGI (familysearch) is there a chance that they can be found at a record office? In other words is the IGI online complete?
Ewan
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Its by no means complete country-wide .... the parish you are interested in might be tho.
Try searching the IGI with this front-end (which in turn is a bit out of date)
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hughwallis/
also you can look in the FamilySearch site for particulars of records held for a parish church, and compare with whats been indexed and whats in the county archives repository .... which you can find with Google or similar ...
:)
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Thanks Newfy
Had a look on the website you suggested no ancestor there, hope that these records are incomplete.
Thanks
Ewan
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Hi Ewan,
The relevant records office is your only hope because the IGI is far from complete.
From my personal experience, when I compare the IGI to the wealth of parish records which are kept at the archives, there's no competition I'm afraid.
Pels
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Even the Hugh Wallis which is a real boon has large gaps and can be frustrating. As Pels says no competition. ;D
Just one more reason why if you can and are able a visit to a record office is a must, if you are within distance of course!
kerry
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Thank you all for your answers.
After looking for some records on the IGI, I was disappointed that names were not there that I was hoping to see, and I was not sure whether they were complete or not. Off to the records office then, here we go.
Ewan
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Hi Ewan
Living in Australia, I am envious of you being able to go "off to the record office" :)
For areas where you are not so easily able to do this, check the film library on the family search site
(which is not working in my world at the minute so I can't give you a link). The LDS have films of MANY parishes that have not been indexed on the IGI. You can then visit your local LDS centre & order and view these films - not as good as the Records Office, but the best for those of us living far distant from same.
Trish
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Good idea Trish, and one I really ought to take up for some of my further flung ancestors across the UK, there is an LDS centre quite close to me!
The link for finding your local centre:
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Library/FHC/frameset_fhc.asp
Kerry :)
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Thank you Trish and Kerry
I did not know that the films from the LDS would have more to see than online, so that is very useful to know. I feel very lucky to live in England where record offices are more accessible than they would be if I lived somewhere else. Saying 'off to the record offfice' was really a figure of speech then, I do go to London to look at parish records once a year with a coach going to the FRC, but when the FRC move next year I don't know if they will continue to drop off at the LMA. I have made 4/5 trips to record offices in the last 10 years, so not as much as I would like to. So I do feel for those people not in the UK who cannot travel to a record office so easily.
All the best
Ewan
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In addition to the IGI a few parish records are online at
http://freereg.rootsweb.com/search/index.htm
You may also find some on a website for an individual church or a local area - it's worth checking on the GENUKI pages for the area and doing a "search" on the parish name eg place + "parish records"; or place + "church records"; or just searching to see if the church has its own website which may have links.
Even local records offices don't have everything - I recently discovered that records for one church that covered the area some of my family were in are still at the church with no copy at the records office.
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Some of the commercial sites have some parish records - but far from a full picture (the best is still the IGI). You might want to check what Family History Online have - they are the commercal outlet for the Federation of Family history Societies:
http://www.familyhistoryonline.net/database/index.shtml
JULIAN
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Thank you Julian and mshrmh for your additional replies.
I do go into both the websites that you have suggested and so far have had no luck with any records I am looking for, will keep looking though, there are changes/additions all the time.
All the best and thank you
Ewan
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In other words is the IGI online complete?
Far from it, the vast majority of events are unrecorded in the IGI. Even if it were complete, it would still be advisable to check out the original parish registers...the IGI is only as good as the person who has transcribed the records, and the IGI contains many details from personal research which may or may not be accurate. At the end of the day the IGI is meant to be an index of those who have been "baptised" by the LDS, and can never hope to replace the primary source material.
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Thank you Simon for your comment. I have found just a few records from the IGI and have been lucky enough to verfiy them from actual parish records.
It is comforting to know that this index is incomplete anyway.
Ewan
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Hi Ewan
Living in Australia, I am envious of you being able to go "off to the record office" :)
For areas where you are not so easily able to do this, check the film library on the family search site
(which is not working in my world at the minute so I can't give you a link). The LDS have films of MANY parishes that have not been indexed on the IGI. You can then visit your local LDS centre & order and view these films - not as good as the Records Office, but the best for those of us living far distant from same.
Trish
Trish I am an Aussie too and have been searching for so long. I had real help and copies of records at very reasonable prices from www.scotsfamily.com. You only pay if they find something. They came across records I had no hope of finding, such as burial records, marriage, and from these I now have more info....... so searching again :) . Any Aussie looking for Scots records would find their site a help, I think.
Rainie
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Hi Rainie and welcome to RootsChat & many thanks for the link.
I don't have alot of unknowns with my Scottish families - having met many nice folks online who have checked for me - and the SP records are very comprehensive & I find the IGI useful for my parts of Scotland as well - but it is always good to have other options. I would just love to be able to "browse the registers" in a records office, rather than test my eyes against very old film readers ::) ::)
If you are in Southern Queensland - do have a look at our meeting threads
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,235001.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,236332.0.html
Trish
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Hi Trish,
Thanks for your reply Trish, I live in country WA
Trish pardon my ignorance but what is the SP and the film readers, you refer to?
Yes the IGI has been really helpful for me too, though I still have a long way to go.
Wish I did live in your QSLD area, your meets sound great.
Kind regards
Rainie
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Hi Rainie,
And welcome to Rootschat from me! I'm a friend of Trish's and we both go to the Rootschat meets here. Yes, I wish you could join us - but WA is just a tad far away!!! :( :( :(
I think Trish was referring to scotlandspeople (very good website), and to the microfilm readers at the LDS, some of which are indeed very ancient! But we Aussies are grateful for them, as at least we are able to see parish records on film, even though we can't get to the records offices! 8)
MarieC
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Hi Rainie
I fear you are a little distant to come to our meeting :) :) - and Marie has correctly explained my abbreviations - sorry I should have given more detail. The full link for SP is
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/ - the official Govt site - if you haven't seen it do sign up. It is free to search BUT pay to view to look at results - certificates come at about $3AU - somewhat cheaper than in Australia!
If you have an LDS family history centre within coeee of where you live, you can visit there & order any of their films of church registers - but as they are run by volunteers the equipment is usually a little old and somewhat overused - however, it does work & as I mentioned provides an alternative to a trip to UK (rather much cheaper :) )
Trish
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Thank you Trish and Marie. That is excellent info. I didnt realise I could do that from LDS centres. I will find out what is available here in the West. Also the Scotlandspeople site.
Cheers,
Rainie
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If I can't find an ancestor's details on the IGI (familysearch) is there a chance that they can be found at a record office? In other words is the IGI on line complete?
Ewan
I get really annoyed with people who claim the IGI is not complete; it is!
Not only is it complete it is 100% accurate!
Anyone who thinks it is not complete or accurate is using the IGI for the wrong purpose.
Be in no doubt the IGI is not as some misguided people think an index of parish records, it is an index of the ordinances of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
If an ordinance took place it is recorded in the IGI, if no ordinance took place there is no reference on the IGI.
To use the IGI as an index to parish records is similar to using a telephone directory as an index of voters. It will contain some entries and not others.
As with all records it is important to know what they record and why, without this knowledge one will make mistakes, follow wrong leads and come up against brickwalls.
Cheers
Guy
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Hello Guy
Many folks understand the beginnings of and reasons behind the existence of the IGI - thus said, millions throughout the world successfully use the "extracted" records as an index of parish registers and in my experience the church is very happy for us to do this. They call their index the "International Genealogical Index" - not the "Ordinance of the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter-day Saints Index". They no longer allow "church member submitted" entries to be added to the index, but they do add more parish register data to the index.
As an index of parish registers it does not cover every church register in existance, but it does contain a very large number of same, thus allowing those of us, very distant from our ancestors place of birth/baptism to find records related to these ancestors.
Trish
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Hi, Trish :D
You should have been a carpenter - you are so good at hitting nails on the head! ;D
I can just add to what you have said, that the friendly Director of my local LDS FHC always refers to the IGI as a useful genealogical index which should be a guide only - he admits that it is incomplete and there are errors in it. I'm sure he knows what it was originally created for - he is a Mormon, obviously - but he thinks of it as an index, as do his customers.
MarieC
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Maybe I've just been unlucky, but I've rarely found anything of use in the IGI. Even records I've extracted from Registers myself don't seem to be on it - occasionally it points in the right direction, but the Parish coverage seems very thin in certain counties
Steve
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I've found heaps on it, Steve!
Yes, I'm sure it depends where you are searching. I have probably been lucky, and you, unlucky.
MarieC
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If an ordinance took place it is recorded in the IGI, if no ordinance took place there is no reference on the IGI.
Hi Guy - whats an Ordinance ?
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If an ordinance took place it is recorded in the IGI, if no ordinance took place there is no reference on the IGI.
Hi Guy - whats an Ordinance ?
Try Google Newfy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints
Trish
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Maybe I've just been unlucky, but I've rarely found anything of use in the IGI. Even records I've extracted from Registers myself don't seem to be on it - occasionally it points in the right direction, but the Parish coverage seems very thin in certain counties
Steve
Hi Steve
I guess from my point of view you have been unlucky. Fortunately my Scottish ancestors belonged to the Church of Scotland & most of the English the C or E, which seem to be quite well represented on the IGI. It may also relate to regions - I find very few of my London records on the IGI but many from small country parishes. I agree the coverage can vary by county.
Trish
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Thanks Trish - I'm probably Googles best customer, and a fan of the Wikipedia .... but was interested in Guy's interpretation, because as far as I can see parish registers are the key to 'post-mortem' saving ordinances, so why are not all registers in the IGI ?
Perhaps due to lack of cooperation by the C of E and local authorities ? Norfolk springs to mind ...
Selective exaltation, sounds a bit discriminatory to me.
Having said all that :P the IGI is a great resource, whatever its raison d'etre .....
Saving ordinaces are considered absolutely necessary for exaltation, and the church teaches that they may be performed on a person either during their lifetime or by proxy after the person has died.[27]
Therefore, church members participate in the saving ordinances on behalf of dead relatives and others whose names have been extracted from historical records.
The performance of these proxy ordinances are one of the functions of the church's temples. There have been certain exceptions to the church's policy of performing proxy work for all persons who have died: prior to the 1978 revelation admitting blacks to temple ceremonies, the church did not perform proxy ordinances for black men and women who had died, and since 1995, the church has agreed to discontinue performing ordinances for dead victims of the Jewish Holocaust.[28]
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Newfy
I've read that the Church of Wales (= C of E) declined to allow the LDS access to their registers, and I believe some English parishes have done likewise.
Certainly, when I mentioned the usefulness of the LDS and their IGI and microfilming of parish registers to a liberal Anglican priest I know here in Oz, his response was that the Mormons were heretics and he would not allow them access to any register he had control of, nor would he do family history research with them! :o :o :o :o I was surprised and shocked. I thought he may have had a different view.
MarieC
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As I understand it, the Mormons want to baptise everyone who ever lived into the Mormon faith. Now some would find this repulsive or offensive, and it all depends on your point of view. I (being a totally lapsed Christian, now with no religious beliefs) don't really care what religions people want to baptise me into when I'm gone, but we have to respect the views of others, I suppose.
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Thanks Trish - I'm probably Googles best customer, and a fan of the Wikipedia .... but was interested in Guy's interpretation, because as far as I can see parish registers are the key to 'post-mortem' saving ordinances, so why are not all registers in the IGI ?
I can only assume as you - that they did not receive permission to access some registers - but this would not account for the films they have that are not part of the IGI - I assume this is simply lack of volunteers to index same - but then again the family history concept sometimes looks to have overtaken the original reasons for the creation of the IGI ??? ???
Trish
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Good point !
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The ordinances Baptism, Endowment and Sealing are carried out (in proxy for deceased persons) in the various LDS Temples.
The IGI microfiche used to show these in the columns B.E.F. but the IGI online has these columns suppressed and may only be viewed at a FHC.
The IGI is made up from a number of sources the main being controlled extractions.
Controlled extractions come from a number of sources such as parish registers, bishop's transcripts (where permission to film parish registers was denied), private collections of pr transcripts such as Gibsons Oxford Marriage Index and many other sources.
It is also made up of patron submissions, i.e. submissions by members of the church and members of the general public.
Note as the IGI records Temple Ordinances it is correct if the particulars given at that ordinance are recorded correctly.
This means if a record was submitted as John Smith baptised Wakefield 31 February 1755 the IGI is correct in recording it as that even if the parish register gives the same baptism as John Smith baptised Wakefield 21 February 1755.
The IGI only records the details given at the ordinance nothing else, many family historians find this hard to understand.
For some years now controlled extractions have not been submitted for Temple Ordinances and therefore do not become part of the IGI such controlled extractions are now added to the Vital Records Index.
Cheers
Guy
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Thanks Guy !
The IGI only records the details given at the ordinance nothing else, many family historians find this hard to understand.
Spot-on for me !
I dont understand why my Norfolk ancestors werent candidates.
Anyway, the question has been answered - Cheers :)
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The ordinances Baptism, Endowment and Sealing are carried out (in proxy for deceased persons) in the various LDS Temples.
The IGI microfiche used to show these in the columns B.E.F. but the IGI online has these columns suppressed and may only be viewed at a FHC.
The IGI is made up from a number of sources the main being controlled extractions.
Controlled extractions come from a number of sources such as parish registers, bishop's transcripts (where permission to film parish registers was denied), private collections of pr transcripts such as Gibsons Oxford Marriage Index and many other sources.
It is also made up of patron submissions, i.e. submissions by members of the church and members of the general public.
Note as the IGI records Temple Ordinances it is correct if the particulars given at that ordinance are recorded correctly.
This means if a record was submitted as John Smith baptised Wakefield 31 February 1755 the IGI is correct in recording it as that even if the parish register gives the same baptism as John Smith baptised Wakefield 21 February 1755.
The IGI only records the details given at the ordinance nothing else, many family historians find this hard to understand.
For some years now controlled extractions have not been submitted for Temple Ordinances and therefore do not become part of the IGI such controlled extractions are now added to the Vital Records Index.
Cheers
Guy
Guy sorry to be so dense but can you tell me , does this mean my relative whose marriage banns I found on the IGI has had an "ordinance"applied to them? Does this mean someone at the LDS has applied for that to be done? Does this mean that they have a family connection to the person in the IGI ?
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As far as I'm aware, they don't need the relative's permission, only the holder of the records. Since census records are freely available online, there's no reason why I (or anyone else) couldn't "baptise" your post-1841 relatives into the "sugar puff eaters" or any other religion that I might come up with.
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Thanks for your reply Nick.
Now to be absolutely clear, can you tell me is that how the LDS see it? What is their criteria for ordinance or not?
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Guy sorry to be so dense but can you tell me , does this mean my relative whose marriage banns I found on the IGI has had an "ordinance"applied to them? Does this mean someone at the LDS has applied for that to be done? Does this mean that they have a family connection to the person in the IGI ?
Yes it means the person you are related to (and incidentally the person thousands of other people living and dead are related to) has had at least one of the three ordinances carried out for them.
No it does not mean that the person who submitted the individual for an ordinance was/is related to them.
The LDS believe that there is life after death and that the deceased person is able to accept the proxy ordinance or refuse it, therefore according to their beliefs there is no conflict of interest.
Cheers
Guy
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Thank you Guy that is very clear.
Rainie
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his response was that the Mormons were heretics and he would not allow them access to any register he had control of, nor would he do family history research with them!
That's an awfully extreme view for him to take, in my opinion. While I personally don't agree with the practice of "baptising" everyone into their faith irregardless of who they were in life, we do need to accept that the LDS has helped genealogy in general and we should show respect to other people's beliefs. At the end of the day we can disagree with someone without condemning them.
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Simon,
I agree. This man is normally quite liberal in his views, that is why I was so shocked and couldn't even respond adequately! I told this story simply to illustrate some attitudes in the Church, which explain why the LDS have not been able to access all parish records.
If I had thought quickly enough, I would have said that either the LDS are right, in which case they are doing the dead a favour, or they are wrong, in which case what they do does not affect either the dead person or his/her relatives, so where is the harm??
MarieC
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As I understand it, even if the LDS is right in their beliefs the dead apparently can choose to reject these endowments so in a way it doesn't really matter one way or another. It's certainly not worth condemning people over.
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I didn't know that about the LDS beliefs, Simon! Yes, it demonstrates what a narrow attitude that is - and at the end of the day, it is we, family historians, who suffer because the LDS has not been permitted to film some church records! (Says she who has just gratefully ordered a film of the burial indexes for the Mt Jerome cemetery in Dublin! It's amazing what they have filmed!! ;D )
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it means that ancestors who died long before the Mormon Church was founded can be retrospectively baptised into their church in order that they will meet them up there in heaven. It is in theory a form of Ancestor worship.
The Roman Catholic Church object to this as the deceased did not choose to belong to that religion in life.