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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: RustyFairy on Saturday 23 June 07 20:57 BST (UK)
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I am a member of Ancestry and have managed to trace quite a way back in some branches of my family tree but I am stuck at my Grandad.
My father is dead, I have my Grandad's marriage certificate and death certificate found in a box of old photographs but I can't find his birth at all.
He was Henry Robinson, father was Joseph Robinson and his death certificate says that he was born 27th January 1897 in Staleybridge
I have found a 4 year old Harry Robinson on a census for 1901 but that's it. I don't know if he was ever called Harry and have no family on my father's side to help me.
There is a connection with his work and Staleybridge, the firm he worked for (Sumners steel) moved to a new plant in Garden City, North Wales where he died so I have no reason to believe that he wasn't born there.
Is it possible that his birth wasn't registered?
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There are a couple of Henry Robinsons aged 4 on the 1901 census with father Joseph. One was born in Manchester, father was a Grocer/Postmaster and mother was named Mary. The other was born in Garstang, father was a Coal Miner/Hewer and mother was named Grace. Do you have Joseph's occupation from Henry's marriage cert?
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Hi, RustyFairy!
I agree with Roobarb's question re. the father's occupation. Also, who were the witnesses to the marriage, in case they might have been family members who might be identified in the census?
Regards,
Josephine
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Dear Rusty,
you have two choices.
1. Harry Robinson b. Q1 1897 Stockport Reference 8a 36.
2. Henry Robinson b. Q1 1897 Lancaster Reference 8e 757.
You need to apply for these birth certificates from the record centre at the GRO at Southport in Merseyside and hope that one or the other has the correct birth date. Otherwise you're stuffed. There must have been some strange family secret. It wasn't uncommon for families to have sudden name changes or more than one marriage/non-marriage family arrangement.
Just as an instant, my wife's Grandfather had Fifteen ( 15) children by three partners of whom he was married to only the first one. In those days you could not get divorced except by Parliamentary decree.
As an example of name change, I recently looked up a name for a friend and they changed the family name from Haslam to Purdy. Who will ever know why? THEY CERTAINLY DIDN'T.
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The occupation on the marriage certificate could help to tie down which may be the correct birth (& lead to 1 certificate rather than 2!). Henry/Harry are very interchangeable names & he could well have been baptised with one and used the other or vice versa ;D ;D
You can also specify the date to be checked when ordering the certificate & although it costs a little more, this can avoid having to buy 2 certificates.
Stalybridge is listed as in the district of Ashton under Lyne 1894-1937
Trish
Edit: Just realised this is your first post RustyFairy - a warm welcome to RootsChat
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Thank you for all of your suggestions, I have tried those birth certificates but I don't think any of them were my family, I even tried a Henry/Joseph from Morcambe.
I didn't think to check the witnesses so thank you for that.
Joseph Robinson is described as a steelworker, so it's possible that they both moved to work in Garden City or that the family moved when the children were young, I need to check the 1901 census for Garden City in case they are there and not Manchester. It could be that my father was wrong in his belief that Grandad was born in Staleybridge
One of the witnesses was called Sybil Robinson, so a sister or sister in law possibly to Henry
The other witness is so badly written that I can't make it out, it could be anything from Creft to Scott!
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Hi Rusty Fairy
And welcome!
If you would like to scan the certificate, people here would take a look at the names for you and try to decipher the hard-to-read one!
MarieC
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What about the family in Failsworth, North Manchester, Lancashire?
The father, Joseph Robinson, 49, is a foreman blacksmith. Could steelworker be another way of saying blacksmith?
The son, Henry, is 9, though, and born in Moston.
What could be other terms for steelworker?
Regards,
Josephine
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RustyFairy,
Do you have any cousins who might know more?
Do you have any family photos with names of your grandfather's siblings, etc?
Do you have any other official documents for your grandfather, such as military records?
Regards,
Josephine
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I have managed to speak to a great Aunt, sister in law to my Grandmother. My Grandfather was always called Harry but is Henry on wedding and death certificate. His father, Joseph had a brother, father to Sybil and Albert (I have sent for Sybil's marriage certificate so should get the father's name) Albert and Sybil were both married in Flintshire so I assume that Joseph and brother moved to the area when their children were small.
Henry was married to a wife name unknown and had sons Cyril and Fred, Cyril also lived in Garden City.
I think I am stuck until I find Albert & Sybil's father to ascertain which Joseph Robinson is my great Grandad
Thanks for all of your help so far
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Welcome!
Lets go back to square one - we are taking his birth details from his death cert. he was dead, so they are only as reliable as the knowlege of the person who gave them. Who registered his death? Was it a close rellie, or someone more distant who may not have been so accurate?
The details we have are name Henry, place Staleybridge, date 27 Sep1897
but it seems this combination ar not tying up. So one of these three facts must be incorrect.
Re: name - this is consistant with marriage, so looks right at this stage. Have you got birth certs of any of his children, if so do they also give Henry as name?
Re: Place - You say Staleybridge makes sense, and it is specific enough for someone registering the death to have definitely known it. May be wrong, who knows.
Re: date - this is the most likely to be out by a few years, it is so often found on death certs. The person registering it may not be sure ("his birthday was 27th Sept and he was ... oh ... early 80's ish.....) or the deceased may have led people to believe he was older or younger than he actually was.
What age is given on his marriage cert? Does that tie in with the birth?
So - it may be worth widening your search date wise for his birth
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Also these birth might be worth looking at:
James Henry Robinson Oct/Nov/Dec 1896 Ashton under Lyme ref 8a 573
Samuel Henry Robinson Jul/Au/Sep 1898 Ash u L 8a 595
in case he dropped the James or samuel at an early age. However, neither fits in with a January birthday
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His death on 5th September 1970 at City Hospital, Chester was registered by his son, Philip James, my Father (5th November 1940 - 16th October 1977)
His marriage certificate states Henry, 41 years, widower, father as Joseph Robinson and is dated 2nd August 1938, witness is his cousin (Joseph's brother's daughter) Sybil Grace Robinson. I have ordered her wedding certificate to see what her father's name was so that I can maybe find Joseph and his brother on a census together.
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Hi
Do you know if your grandfather had any siblings? It may be possible to narrow the search down that way.
Secondly, have you considered the entry for:
Harry Robinson b. Jan-Mar qtr 1897 in Ashton (under lyme) district [which includes stalybridge]
acceber
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I may be confirming the obvious but my father 'George Henry Caswell' was known by everyone a 'Harry', or at least by the grownups. :)
Harry is a very common short form of Henry and many nicknames come from a middle name. My brother had to live with 'Muddy' because his middle name is 'Murray' :) :(
Paul
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Hi again Rusty,
I think we are starting to get somewhere here. Siblings from the first marriage is a guide we can use to trace the name of his first wife.
Do you know their date of birth or near age to trace D.O.B? From this we can trawl for a common surname for the mother to obtain a date for the first marriage, so long as both births occurred after Q3 1911 which I'm sure they did.
I have a strong hunch your grandfather was 4 or 5 years older than he claims.
I know its already been asked, but do you have any photo's of him in WW1 uniform or records of some kind?
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Hi Rusty
I had this problem and couldn't see the obvious for months:
Was your grandfather born before his parents were married so
therefore registered in his MOTHER'S name?
Mine was, and when I found out, the "duh, of course!!!" reaction was
profound!!!!
Good luck!!
Rozzy