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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Powershot on Thursday 14 June 07 14:49 BST (UK)
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Hi i am looking for information on my Grandmothers parents i have there names as,
Father John Thomas Cross and Mother as Helen Emily Cross nee Barnes.
My Grandmothers Fathers parents were Thomas John Cross and Hesta.
I have no other information other than this.
My Grandmother was born about 1921 and died 1988 she had
Brothers and sisters including Terry i do have other brothers and sisters names but will need to add later on.
Can anyone help me?
Rachel
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Hi i am looking for information on my Grandmothers parents i have there names as,
Father John Thomas Cross and Mother as Helen Emily Cross nee Barnes.
My Grandmothers Fathers parents were Thomas John Cross and Hesta.
I have no other information other than this.
My Grandmother was born about 1921 and died 1988 she had
Brothers and sisters include Terry, Dennis, Patricia, Rosemary, Molly and Anita.
Can anyone help me?
Rachel
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Hi Rachel,
To help narrow the search down a little do you know what State in Australia you would like us to start looking?
Be pleased to help if in Sth Aust, regards Sashar
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Hi Rachel,
I have a
Helen Barnes
born: 27 Mar 1921 Adelaide.
Father: Edward George Barnes.
Mother: Lena Agnes Taylor
Book/Page: 73A/115
Other Children to there parents above is:
Dorothy Clara Born: 22 Dec 1909.
George Duncan Born: 7 Oct 1911
If this is your ones you are looking for there Rachel.
Ozybob.
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Just going on the name of one brother 'Terence' [I assume] who might have enlisted for ww2, I can see such a person
Terence John Cross joined up as an 18 yr old in Nsw. He was single and an apprentice plumber.
His Next Of Kin was his father John Thomas Cross and John was living in at a Canberra address.
Does this sound likely your family?
http://www.naa.gov.au
Sue
There are a couple o others on the site too including a John Thomas CROSS b. 1887 who enlisted forww2 fom Canberra NOK Rosemary. And a Denis [one N] Woodleigh CROSS b.1925 NOK John who was born inCanberra
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hello there
is Leanora Kathleen Maslen your grandmother?
regards Jenn
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Hi everyone thanks for getting back to me,
the only other information that i can clarify is that my Grandmother Leanora married my Grandfather Alfred Tressilian Maslen on the 20th May 1944 in Seymour Victoria.
There children are David (my Father) and Helen.
The Terence connection in Canberra is a definite possibility as that is where he lives/lived his wife was Mary and children are Ron and Helen (Nell).
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hi there
do you have the marriage certificate, it will at least say where she was BORN
regards jenn
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Hi Jenn, i have just rung my Aunt to ask her she should know but isn't at home at the moment. I will post answer when i hear from her.
Cheers Rachel
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hello there
now a marriage certificate is the best bet because she herself would have given the information.
Do you know what state she died in please
regards jenn
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Hi Rachel,
The following might be of interest:
MASLEN Alfred Tressilia, father Fearless Jam, mother Annie Frances PUKE, died MACL, age 82, 1979, reg no 19450
and
MASLEN Robert Fearless, Alfred Fearl, Annie PYKE, MOOR, age 64, 1965, #14236
MASLEN Roland, Alfred Fearl, Anna Frances PYKE, MOOR, age 72, 1971, #10439
MASLEN Charles Henry, Fearless Alfre, Annie, PARK, age 75, 1981, #17717
and
MASLEN Fearless Alfd, Maslen Robert, Jane MULLINS, MPNA, age 58, 1931, #6419
MASLEN Jno, Maslen Robt, Jane MULLINS, ECHUCA, 84, 1944, #22481
I notice that your location is Melbourne. I wonder whether you are aware that the Victorian BDM indexes (up to certain dates) are available for free consultation in many libraries including the State Library of Victoria. They will also have information from other states.
Victorian BDMs are online (searches are free but there is a fee to view results) at:
http://online.justice.vic.gov.au/
NSW indexes (up to certain dates) can also be searched online at:
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/
And Queensland at:
http://www.justice.qld.gov.au/bdm/IndexSearch.htm
Best of luck,
JAP
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Brothers of Leanora,
Terence, Dennis.
Sisters, Patricia, Rosemary, Molly, Anita.
part of a Pm giving bro/sis of Leanore
Hello there Racheal
CROSS, PAMELA MILLSON N389151 26 Feb 1922 MANLY, NSW Army
CROSS, PATRICIA WILHELMINA MILLSOM N388968 6 Mar 1920 SYDNEY, NSW Army
World War Two nominal Roll
these two lassies have listed as their NOK Helenor Cross this might be part of your family
regards Jenn
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Hi Rachel,
There are some births on the NSW online site which might be relevant.
To a Thomas CROSS & Esther:
Frederick at Wollombi, 1883
Clarrie at Richmond, 1886
Minnie at Richmond, 1888
Thomas at Windsor, 1889
Elizabeth at Windsor, 1893
Grace at Wollombi, 1897
JAP
PS: And a marriage in 1882 in Windsor of a Thomas CROSS to an Esther FARRANT or TARRANT (indexed under both names)
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Jenn, That "Helenor" sounds odd - and one wouldn't expect two people at the time of WW2 to get it wrong.
The NSW site has the death of a Helenor CROSS (yes, spelled Helenor!) in 1974, parents Samuel and Jessie.
JAP
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sorry Jap don't get what you mean here
regards jenn
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hi there
by the ryerson index Helenor cross was aged 88 so makes her born around 1886c
regards jenn
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Sorry Jenn - I was just thinking that Helenor was a most unusual spelling.
And, by the 1940s, one wouldn't expect it just to be a misspelling - especially by two separate people.
So it seemed that it was probably truly the name of Pamela and Patricia's NOK.
So I was pleased to find that a Helenor CROSS did exist - pity the NSW site doesn't give age at death!
Ah, while I was typing you added the age; would make her 34 in 1920 so a definite possibility.
A search of RootsChat finds several mentions of the name MASLEN. The following thread probably the most relevant:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,205027.0.html
JAP
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The name Helanor could be a possibility but i don't know i am just going to have to get the marriage certificate and that will at least give me a starting point.
Rachel :)
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I am sending off for my grandmothers marriage certificate so at least i have some correct dates, and then i will get back to everyone and hopefully you can help me.
cheers Rachel
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he there Racheal
Good idea we all will look forward to the results
regards jenn
Victorian BDMs are online (searches are free but there is a fee to view results) at:
http://online.justice.vic.gov.au/
do you know you can order them on line and you can download the image to your computer or print it out
regards jenn
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Hi there Rachel,
In my cruising round the National Archives website, I have found a couple of interesting entries for your ALRED TRESSILIAN MARSLEN [spelt Frissilian]
One is his digitised war sevice history [ww1]
He was 82 when he died in 1979 [ per Jap] and enlisted as a very young man in 1916.
His Father, Alfred is his Next Of Kin. He states born in Echuca and was a driver.
There is a report of him being 'accidentaly shot in the foot' and also a letter from Miss Nellie Gunn who lives in Richmond Vic. and is very keen to make contact!
The next entry is his application after the war to get funding from the Repatriation Department to purchase an electric saw at a cost of 150 pounds. So that he can further his business as a wood merchant.
I hope you enjoy these old records as much as I did [if you have not already seen them.
http://www.naa.gov.au
Search as guest and enter in keywords Alfred Marslen.
Sue
Ps
You will find it worthwhile also to search using Frederick Marslen. I think you will get a record for Fearless jnr. [poss changed first name as potential soldier??] Pension is addressed to North Melb. and NOK is father Robert.
Also look at John Marslen says father is Robert, and then says mother is Annie. Also lives North Melbourne. Leave it you!!
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Hi all i still don't have my Grandmother's birth certificate, i still haven't spoken to my Aunt but::
i have come across this information in the ACT birth deaths and marriages index.
Helen Emily Cross died 1/12/1942 registration 1942/688
John Thomas Cross died 14/01/1962 registration 1962/3830
now if only i can get a possible marriage date for them i will have a start.
I am curious if they always lived in Canberra and married there i asked my Dad but he has no idea,
anyone got any ideas
Rachel
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Hello Rachel,
ACT records commenced in 1930; before that they were under NSW.
As I understand it ACT death records include:
Name
Date
Death place
Age
Occupation
Cause of death
Parents' names
Spouse names
Marriage details
Children's names
No of chn
Birthplace
Residency
Burial place
It would therefore seem to be sensible to get one or both of the death certificates.
JAP
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You already have a certain amount of information - your own and that available on sites/sources provided on this thread.
You have listed the family as (I'll put them in alphabetical order):
*Anita
*Dennis
From the NAA site, you have Denis Woodleigh CROSS, b 8 April 1925 in Canberra, enlisted in Bathurst NSW; next of kin John CROSS
*Molly
*Patricia
*Rosemary
From the NAA site, you have Rosemary CROSS (so she was presumably unmarried at that time) as the next of kin of John Thomas CROSS (presumably her father)
*Leanora Kathleen
You say she was b ca 1921, married 1944 in Seymour Vic, and died 1988. Do you have her death certificate? If not, you really need to get either her marriage or death cert in order to find out when and where she was born, etc, etc
*Terry
From the NAA site, you have Terence John CROSS, b 10 Dec 1818 in Queanbeyan (Queanbeyan is in NSW though adjacent to the ACT). Terence's residential address when he enlisted in Canberra in 1937 was Durville Cres, Griffith, ACT - which was also the address of his next of kin, John Thomas CROSS
From the NAA site, you have John Thomas CROSS born 6 April 1887 in Balmain (I can't find such a birth on the NSW BDM site) who enlisted in Canberra citing Rosemary CROSS as his next of kin.
It really has reached a stage where you need to purchase some certificates.
Regards,
JAP
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I have finally paid for some certificates.
They are the death certificates for Helen Emily and John thomas Cross. So once i have these i should be able to get my Grandmothers birth certificate from the right state, as it is possible she was born in NSW.
Thanks for your help everyone i will post the results once i get the certificates.
Rachel
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Hi Rachel,
Even if Leanora was born in Canberra, the record would be a NSW record - her birth said to be ca 1921, and ACT records not starting until 1930.
The death certs you've ordered might say how long John Thomas & Helen Emily had lived in various Australian states/territories. But that won't tell you for certain where Leanora was born - you'd need her marriage cert (or death cert though these are less reliable) for that.
Hope there's good information on the death certificates you've ordered!
Regards,
JAP
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Hello there Rachael,
I must say that you have a living relative that you could talk to . Have you contacted your Aunt as yet? You may be overlooking a very valuable source. She may be in possession of papers and photos etc.
kind regards Jenn
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Hi one and all,
one of the reasons i ordered the death certificates is because i really have no other information on either Helen Emily or John Thomas hopefully fingers crossed it Will give me both of there parents names as i am not 100% sure on John Thomas parents names and i have no idea who Helen Emily's parents were.
I have tried to contact my Aunt various times but i don't think she is that interested as she still hasn't got back to me but i will try again because she should be able to tell me at least where and when my grandmother was born which should make things a little easier.
Anyway lets see what these death certificates give me.
Rachel :)
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Hello again Rachel,
Can only agree in hoping that the death certs give lots of great info.
And who knows - once you start coming up with info, your Aunt might suddenly get caught up in this hobby/addiction! It has happened, you know ::) My closest old school-friend became a genie aficionado as did my niece (only child of my only - by then deceased - sibling) who started trying to trace her roots back in the early 1990s. I tried to help my niece a bit though thinking, about both of them, what a boring thing to do. My niece is no longer particularly interested ... As for me ...
Very best regards,
JAP
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Today i got some very interesting mail.
I now have the death certificates for Leanora's parents.
Also for the record i have a copy of my Dad's birth certificate and it lists that she was born in Canberra, NSW and was 24 in 1945 when my Dad was born.
Now for the great grandparents
John Thomas Cross
Died in Canberra in 1962 aged 79 years
Place of Birth Balmain, NSW
His parents are listed as John Cross and Hestia Cross (no maiden name on certificate)
Helen Emily Cross Nee Barnes
Died in Canberra in 1942 aged 59 years
Place of Birth Norfolk, USA
Her parents are listed as Arthur Barnes and Harriet Barnes nee Govet
They were married in the Uk on her certificate in says Norwich and on his London.
So i now know why nobody knew anything about Helen's family.
Any help from here would be greatly appreciated how do i go about getting copies of Helen's birth certificate and the marriage certificate for them.
Cheers to one and all Rachel
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Hi Rachel,
Do the death certs say when John CROSS & Helen BARNES were married?
Does Helen's death cert say how long she had been in Australia?
Who were the couple who (you say) were married in either Norwich or London?
The following looks like one of Leanora's sisters:
Anita CROSS, parents John & Helen, died in Queanbeyan NSW in 1924 #1028
I still can't locate an appropriate birth for John Thomas (Thomas John ) CROSS ...
JAP
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Hi Jap John and Helen were married in Norfolk district of norwich in uk. I have found a listing for a marriage in 1912 but can't view certificate.
Helen's certificate states she lived in Australia for approx 30 years.
Johns certificate shows he was born in Balmain
Death certificate gives childrens names as
John Terence always called Terry
Norah Kathleen (Leanora)
Dennis Woodleigh
Patricia Beatrice
Rosemary Vilma
Cheers Rachel
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Hello again Rachel,
That's interesting that John and Helen were married in Norwich!
Yes, now I see the marriage - John T CROSS & Helen E BARNES, Mar qtr 1912, Norwich (Norfolk), Volume 4b, Page 222
I guess you might have to lash out and order the certificate. You can order online but it will then be posted out ;)
The birthplace on Helen's death cert (you said it was Norfolk, USA) is surely an error for Norfolk, UK. And the following is surely her birth:
BARNES Helen Emily, birth, Dec qtr 1882, Norwich
Incidentally, you mentioned the name Anita as one of Leanora's siblings - I guess she died young.
JAP
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Hello there
1891 Census information
living at 48 Market Place North Walsham, Norkfolk.
Arthur P Barnes Head 31 seedsman and game dealer born Ingworth Norfolk
Harriet wife 29 Norwich "
Helen E D 8 " "
Beatrice K D 5 """""""""""""""""
Mildred S D 3 North Walsham "
Edith D 1 """""""""""""""""
Albert A s 3mnths """"""""""""""""
So from this census one would have to say Norfolk uk as Jap has stated when she located the birth of Helen Emily Barnes.
regards Jenn
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Excellent Jenn!
I just came back to the computer intending to post suggesting that Rachel ask for 1891 and 1901 lookups!
I had seen the following in the 1881 on FamilySearch and wondered if they were the right family (despite father being John):
8 Bedford St, Heigham, Norfolk
John S BARNES, Head, M, 36, b Eaton Norfolk, Seedsman Earlham Gardens? (Managing Assistant) (7/3)
Harriett E BARNES, Wife, M, 28, b Eaton Norfolk
Madeline Mary BARNES, Daughter, 3, b Norwich Norfolk
I guess not!!
Haven't managed to find a marriage for an appropriate Arthur and Harriett yet ...
Cheers,
JAP
PS (added later): The 1891 Arthur possibly the following:
BARNES Arthur Petchell, birth, Mar qtr 1860, Aylsham, Volume 4b Page 91
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And that Arthur's death:
Arthur Petchel BARNES, death, age 39, Mar qtr 1900, Smallburgh Norfolk, Volume 4b, Page 61
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Hi can i have the link for the cenus info please i have looked at so many pages tonight i can't remember what was where. lol :D
Rachel
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Rachel,
1881 census information is on the FamilySearch site at:
http://www.familysearch.org
To get 1891 census information, I guess one would need to be an Ancestry subscriber - which I'm not so can't help with the reference number.
I still can't find the marriage of Arthur & Harriet, nor have I yet found either of them in 1881.
To summarize (and to indicate who might be expected to be found in 1901):
Arthur Petchell BARNES, birth Mar qtr 1860, Aylsham V4b, P91
Arthur Petchel BARNES death, age 39, Mar qtr 1900, Smallburgh V4b, P61
Harriett (surname?) - birth (Norwich ca 1862 from 1891 census) still to be found
Harriett BARNES death, age 49, Jun qtr 1911, Smallburgh V4b, P31
Arthur BARNES m Harriett (surname?) - still to be found.
Children (based on the 1891 census):
*Helen Emily BARNES
Birth Dec qtr 1882, Norwich, B4b, P1{56}6
(looks like 156 to me)
*Beatrice Kathleen BARNES
Birth Dec qtr 1885, Norwich, V4b, P173
*Mildred Sophia BARNES
Birth Mar qtr 1888, Smallburgh, V4b, P64
*Edith Annie BARNES
Birth Dec qtr 1889, Smallburgh, V4b, P55
*Albert Arthur BARNES
Birth Mar qtr 1891, Smallburgh, V4b, P53
- presumably the following death, Albert Arthur BARNES, age 1, Mar qtr 1892, Smallburgh V4b, P69
JAP
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Hi Jap, i have Harriet's maiden name as Govet on the death certificate.
Cheers Rachel
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1871 Census for Arthur P Barnes
RG10/1797 Folio 115 page 28
The writing on this page was awfully flowery very hard to decipher
Living at 160 market place , North Walsham
Barnes George 42 Head Green Grocer and pork Butcher born burgh, Norfolk
Barnes Emily E 42 wife born Wramplington, Norfolk
George Hy 18 son solicitors general clerk born Hantbbis, Norfolk
Helen E 14 dau Scholar Inkworth, Norfolk
Arthur P 11 son Scholar “””””””””””””””
Smith Elizbeth 9 niece Norwich, Norfolk
Howard Emily 16 Servant Domestic general duties Swanton Abbott, Norfolk
regards Jenn
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Hello there
you should find the 1881 census for Arthur still living with his family in Market Place, North Walsham
I did note a Harriet Gooch living with them.
Like Jap I could not find a marriage for Arthur P barnes but on a hunch looked for Harriet Gooch
and found this entry ( no doubt badly transcribed)
Arthur Petchell Bowes 1881 Jul-Aug-Sep Smallburgh Norfolk
Harriet Gooch 1881 Jul-Aug-Sep Smallburgh Norfolk
so could one assume that this is the marriage and her maiden name was perhaps Gooch
kind regards Jenn
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1901 census
46 Market Place North Walsham
BARNES
Harriet 39 W b Witton - Fruiterer and Shopkeeper
Helen 18 S b Norwich - Mothers Helper
Beatrice 15 S b Norwich - Assistant Fruiterer
Mildred 12 b North Walsham
Richard 9 b North Walsham
George 4 b North Walsham
No sign of Edith who was listed on the 1891 census (and Albert died 1892 -as mentioned by JAP)
Hope this helps,
Raylen
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Thanks everyone, all of your info is greatly appreciated as is anything else you come up with.
I'm starting to look like my pic i have been sitting here so long
staring at the computer.
Lol :D
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Great work Jenn - finding Harriet GOOCH, and the marriage with Arthur wrongly transcribed as Arthur Petchell BOWES!! Rachel must be really pleased.
The following is probably the marriage of George BARNES & Emily E (parents of Arthur Petchell BARNES):
*1852 Sep qtr, Aylesham, Vol4b, Page143, George BARNES & Emily Elizabeth REEVE on the same page.
There are quite a few REEVEs with middle name Petchel(l) on FreeBMD ...
I don't see a death for Edith Annie BARNES (who is not in the 1901 census info posted by Raylen) but here are Richard and George:
*Richard James BARNES, birth, Mar qtr 1892, Smallburgh Norfolk, Vol 4b, Page 55
*George BARNES, birth, Jun qtr 1897, Smallburgh Norfolk, Vol 4b, Page 57
JAP
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This family is of interest to the Fromelles Missing Group.
Helen Emily Barnes was the sister of George Barnes 2/6 Gloster Regt. Killed in Action at Fromelles on 19 July 1916.
He is one of the missing who is on the British MOD priority list for finding suitable relatives for possible identification of his remains, if they are in the recently exhumed burial pits at Fromelles.
As such any descendants in the female line who would bear the same mitochondrial DNA as George Barnes have been requested to get in touch with the Historical Casualty branch of the MOD here in UK. suitable people for testing include the sons of Helen Barnes' daughters, or sons of her daughters' daughters
Best regards,
Howard
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Hi,
This information is very interesting, unfortunately my father who was Helen Emily's grandson passed away in July this year.
Could you give me the details of who i need to contact as it is possible i might be able to get a family member who is able to give the required DNA.
Thanks
Rachel
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Rachel,
Very many thanks for your reponse. I will pm you with more information.
Best wishes,
Howard
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Hi Howard, i will speak to my Aunt. She is a granddaughter of Helen Emily Barnes.
If she is not interested she may be able to find out who may be
Thanks
Rachel