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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Kent => England => Kent Lookup Requests => Topic started by: helenna on Thursday 14 June 07 14:44 BST (UK)
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Could someone please look up the 1841 census for Horton Park, Barham.
Many thanks
Helenna
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What, in particular were you after?
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Is this in relation to your Henry Graham MONTAGU Helenna - have you found another clue to his origins?
Casalguidi
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Thankyou for reply and yes, I have just been in contact with another of my unknown relatives, also after Henry's origins ,and it seems that Henry had cousins by the name of Tassell living at Horton Park, nr Barham. This is the first time we have been given the name of any other relatives and of course has to be followed up. I have found them on the 1881 census. John Tassell then being a retired farmer his daughter was named Lilla and one of Henry's children was named Lilla after her. The address on the census is Little Bridge Place, Bridge, Kent. His beginnings are a mystery to us all and of course we want to know. It seems we have all been brought up on the story of him coming from wealthy background. I know this can be a story that lots of people come up with. Believe me it has to have some truth in it. Do wonder if he was illegitimate.
Once again many thanks for your interest believe me its some story.
Helenna
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What, in particular were you after?
I am looking for a John Tassell who I am led to believe lived at Horton Park, Nr Barham in the 1800s.
Many thanks for replying
Helenna
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Hello Helenna
Not an easy family to track as their name gets horribly mistranscribed.
The family is at Horton Park, Monks Horton in 1851 - I am still trying to find John in 1841.
On a later census I noticed that John and his wife Eliza have a son Montagu Henry Tassell registered in 1859. I mention this as the name is similar to the one mentioned by Casalguidi.
Will have another search for John in 1841 and get back to you.
Barbara
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Sorry Helenna but I cannot identify John in 1841.
I think he was already married. Free BMD has this
Marriages Dec 1838
CHAMPION Harriet Elham 5 269
EVENDEN William Elham 5 269
STOKES Eliza Elham 5 269
TASKELL John Elham 5 269
Young Susan Elham 5 269
I checked the marriage on the full indexes and on the Kent Registration site and the name there is John Tassell.
Strange that their first child was not born until 1843.
Family search has a submitted entry for John Tassell born about 1811 which may be correct as the death date of 1902 looks right. (see http://www.familysearch.org/). The Free BMD entry is as follows
Deaths Sep 1902
Tassell John 91 Bridge 2a 473
The 1851 census entry is as follows - sorry but the image is very poor and hard to read
Horton Park, Monks Horton
John Tassell Head Mar 40 Farmer 394? acres employing labour?b Kent Wye
Eliza Wife Mar 37 b Kent Hythe
Lilla Dau 8 b Kent Monks Norton
Eliza Dau 6 b Kent Monks Norton
Theodore Son 3 b Kent Monks Norton
James Son 9 months b Kent Monks Norton
Susanna Mount Servant 16 House Servant b Kent Newington
An interesting point is that family search indicates that John's father was James Tassell and his mother Mary Cook - John's son Theodore had the middle name of Cook.
Not sure whether this is going to help you at all.
Barbara
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Thankyou so much for the results you have posted to me. This all looks so promising.
Have just been given the information that Henry Grahame Montagu had cousins by the name of Tassell at Horton Park -somewhere nr Barham- Is Horton Park @ Monks Norton? Sorry am not familiar with this area.How could I find the maiden name of Eliza Tassell?? As it could be her family that are connected to Henry.
That was interesting the name of child registered in 1859. Couldnt be my Henry as he served in the Crimean,but most definately could be a relative.Have also been told that Henry attended Bishops Grammer School, would you know if the records of the pupils still exist? Also the letter stated that Henry was born 1832-1835. So many contradictions as this doesnt correspond with the date of his birth he puts on all documents, 1839.
I would be most grateful for any other information you may find.
Helenna
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Hi Helenna
Horton Park is at Monks Horton (note the H) - the latter a small rural village (next to Stowting) in Kent. Monks Horton is about 9 miles from Barham (passing through the villages of Lyminge and Elham). See the following for the 1901 census returns of Monks Horton:
http://members.lycos.co.uk/shrubsole/census_returns_for_the_parish_of_monks_horton.htm
The only sure way to confirm the maiden name of John TASSELL's wife would be to purchase a birth certificate for one of their children. However, it does look likely that they are the John TASSELL and Eliza STOKES who married at Hythe http://extranet3.kent.gov.uk/sp/rois/home.html (the ref. is that for marriages at Hythe parish church). There are films of the Hythe marriage registers at Hythe Library but they don't have a printer for their reader or at least they didn't the last time I was there http://kent.gov.uk/LibrariespublicUI/
STOKES is a well known "Hythe" name.
Bishop's Grammar School - any idea where that would be?
Casalguidi
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Many thanks for the information you have sent me. So much appreciated. I will also look up the sites you have sent.
I understand that Bishops Grammer School was in Canterbury?
Helenna
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Hello Helenna
I think casalguidi has answered most of your queries. Sorry about the typing error on Monk's Horton :)
Can I just confirm that what you are trying to do is link your Henry Grahame Montague b c 1832-35 or even 1839 to this Tassell family?
What other information do you have on Henry?
Barbara
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Hello Barbara,
Many thanks for the information re Horton Park etc. Yes I am trying to find a link to Henry Grahame Montagu, he was my grandfather and neither myself or any other member of this large family have been able to find his birth certificate or details of his parents. He states on all certificates that he was born 1839 Bridge Nr Canterbury and his father was Charles. Up until now we have not heard of any relatives, hence the interest in the Tassells.
The other information is that he was the son of someone connected to the Royals. ????? This has come from another member of my Grans family , the person in question being nearly 100 and remembers going to see my gran as a child and being told that the father of 2 of the children with my gran was connected to the Royals.
Wonder if we could perhaps find a child living with perhaps the Tassells in 1841?
HGM ended up as Cheif Sanitary Inspector for Bath in the 1800s. Had to be educated then to get that position.
Once again many thanks for your help.
Helenna
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Hello again Helenna
I have been looking at your Henry Graham Montague and it is weird that in the censuses he can be found 1861-1901 but not before. Also there does not seem to be a birth registration for him - if he was born in 1839.
When I checked the 1851 census for a Henry (any surname) b Bridge 1839 +/- 1 year all I got was a Henry Whitnell, a pauper in the workhouse. He was there in 1841 too with 2 other Whitnalls, most likely mother and sister. There is a baptism for the sister on the IGi and she is illegitimate. Wider wildcard searches have not thrown him up either.
Could he have been illegitimate do you think, and reinvented himself?
I will see if I can find anything on the school.
Barbara
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It may be nothing but perhaps I'd better mention it, an 1847 directory lists one of the main owners of land in Monks Horton as a Col. Henry MONTAGUE.
Helenna, do you know the full names of all Henry's children ie. is there anything else unusual apart from Lilla?
I'm no expert on Canterbury schools but have never heard of Bishops. Kings was/is the school in Canterbury but I really wouldn't like to speculate :-\ http://www.kings-school.co.uk/
Casalguidi
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I have not had much luck with the school - I keep coming back to The King's School. However this website seems to suggest that it may have been known as the Archbishop's school
http://www.hillside.co.uk/tour/d94.html
In 1851 I have found a 50 year old Henry Graham Montague in London witha young wife (29) called Lily and children ranging from 8 to 10 months. His occupation is very detailed but almost illegible. I think it says Professor of .... Physiology .... the ref is HO107 1486 f 726 if anyone else would like to have a look.
I will see if I can find him in later censuses - I can't see him in 1841.
Barbara
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To CAselguidi,
Thanks for all your efforts here, have to say feel guilty about it as you can see, we have nothing to go on re Henrys life before he was 17. I among several of his desendants have searched every avenue for his birth certificate and parent details, without success.
Yes I have all the details re his 4 marriages and all of his 19 childrens names. I can see where your going with the names, but to date have not found anything that would help.This latest reference to the Tassells is the first I have heard of any relatives.
There is a constant reference from all I have been in contact with, to him being related to Royalty Sorry to be a bore over this, but we have wondered if his mother was perhaps a servant and got herself pregnant and then been paid for his upbringing. He definately inherited 3 -4 fortunes and I am led to believe gambled the lot.
The Col you mention sounds promising in one way as he did seem to be involved in army things and had an Army funeral. I have his obituary from the Bath Chronicle.
Once again thanks.
Helenna
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HI Barbara,
Thankyou so much for looking into my Montagu query.
I Know about the Montagu you have found with the wife Lily, he sounds quite a card, and wouldnt have minded having him as a relative, but, afraid not.
I and many others have searched high and low for HGMs details without success.
He is on the 1871 census in Bath and so on
The school name was given to us by the relative who provided the Tassell details.
Once again many thanks for your time.
Helenna
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Hello Helenna
Really am stuck on this one!
I believe The King's School has an archivist so it may be worth sending an email.
The London family is also a bit of a mystery - can't find them in a later census and can only find one birth reg of the youngest child (Herbert) who died young. I did wonder whether there were French connections because of the children's names -Blanche, Eugene.
Have you checked the parish registers for Bridge?
Barbara
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Hello Helenna, I'm a Montagu descended from the first Earl of Manchester. I've seen your query re. Henry Graham Montagu. This could be a complete red herring but one of my ancestors George Conway Courtenay Montagu (b.1776 d. 1847) of Lackham House, Wiltshire may have had 2 illegitimate children by two servants. These children were sent (with their mothers) to the work house. I came across this information on the internet posted by Tony Pratt who was researching the Montagu family at Lackham. I wonder if there could be any link?
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To Montagu_Griffin,
Many thanks for replying.
My Henry Grahame Montagu always puts his place of birth as 1839 Bridge, Nr Canterbury, Kent.
Also we have just been told of cousins he had in that area, so I dont really think he is one of those children, because of the location.
However, I do think that his beginnings are something like that.
Thanks Helenna
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to Barbara,
Hello Helenna
Really am stuck on this one!
I believe The King's School has an archivist so it may be worth sending an email.
The London family is also a bit of a mystery - can't find them in a later census and can only find one birth reg of the youngest child (Herbert) who died young. I did wonder whether there were French connections because of the children's names -Blanche, Eugene.
Have you checked the parish registers for Bridge?
Barbara
Hello Barbara,
Many thanks for the above. I will have to check the parish registers for Bridge etc. This Montagu is a mystery, I do believe that he was illegitimate. Now to find out where he was before he was 17yrs old. He had a good education feel sure and to his credit made sure his children did as well.
I did send an email confirming that the above Monatgu wasnt mine, but a great character.
Margaret
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Hello Helenna, I'm a Montagu descended from the first Earl of Manchester. I've seen your query re. Henry Graham Montagu. This could be a complete red herring but one of my ancestors George Conway Courtenay Montagu (b.1776 d. 1847) of Lackham House, Wiltshire may have had 2 illegitimate children by two servants. These children were sent (with their mothers) to the work house. I came across this information on the internet posted by Tony Pratt who was researching the Montagu family at Lackham. I wonder if there could be any link?
Not to sure if I have got this right as I did send a reply a short time ago, so hope you got it.
Nice to hear from another Montagu.
Helenna
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Hi Helenna, thanks for getting back to me... I thought it was probably a long shot. Best of luck in the search for Henry's origins!
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Hi Helenna
I've been thinking about this again ;D
Being as Henry first turns up (for certain) in a census in Walcot, Somersetshire, I had a look at other Kent born people in Walcot and noticed the following:
1851 28 New King Street, Walcot, Somerset
Elizabeth H ATCHERLEY head wid 35 annuitant b.France (British Subject)
Henry M son 15 scholar at home b.Canterbury
HO107/1943 folio 183 page 13
Who are they I wonder? I couldn't spot them in 1841 to try and eliminate them :-\
...................................................
I also found the following family in Walcot in 1851:
15 Marlborough Buildings, Walcot
Frances M PAPPILLON head mar 46 husband a landed proprietor b.Barham Kent
Mary G(raham) dau unm 23 b.Barham Kent
Thomas M son unm 22 b.Barham
Emily G dau unm 18 b.Barham
Margaret A dau unm 11 b.Barham
Lila M(atilda) dau 8 b.Barham
David son 8 b.Barham
Florence dau 5 b.Bath Somerset
+ some servants
HO107/1943 folio 2*8? page 4*?
A few co-incidences there don't you think?
Digging around a bit more, the parents were Thomas PAPILLON and Frances Margaret OXENDEN. A licence was granted 6 Sep 1825 for them to marry at Barham in Kent. Thomas PAPILLON was a bachelor of Acrise aged 22 and Frances was of Barham.
Frances Margaret OXENDEN was the daughter of Henry OXENDEN and Mary GRAHAM. From what I can make out, Frances Margaret OXENDEN had several siblings including the Rev. Montague OXENDEN. These were very prominent families and loads of references to them can be found on the net by googling etc..
Hope I've not confused the issue too much more ;D
Can't see anything linking them to the TASSELL family as yet though :-\
Casalguidi :)
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Hi Casalguidi,
Many thanks for the further information you have sent me. Isnt that interesting the link between Bath and Barham? Also the name Lilla, which sems to have some significants. On all the documents I have managed to get e.g. marriages deaths etc. he always puts b. Nr Canterbury it isnt until the 1901 census he puts born at Bridge? Have to admit I am at that stage at the moment where I feel like giving up as do several of us descendants who are doing this research.He did have money as to give him his due he made sure his children (nearly all 19 of them) had a good start in life. One thing I have just found out was that people who tried to find out where he came from were warned off???????????Also another of my half relatives said she was told not to go down that avenue as she could regret it. The mystery deepens. Sorry for rambling really do appreciate your interest and when its all solved I promise I will let you know,In the meantime will look into the info you have just let me have.
Thanks
Helenna
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hi Casalguidi,
P.S.
Henry was resident at 17, Hatfield Buildings from 1870/1-1872. Which is interesting.
Helenna
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Hi Helena
I have a Henry G Montague (b)abt 1829, found in 1861 census with Emma & children, Henry, Emma, Eugene & Grace. Eugene was my grandfather & I know he came to Australia in 1888, the year he was marrried. Emma married James Clinton Bishop 1880. Grace M died 1860. I cannot find this family in other census records. There is a Henry Graham Montague in the Times newspaper in 1852 as going to court & he was already in prison for debt. Little Grace M had written on her parish register death record, illegitimate, so the others must be as well, as she was the last born.
I dont know if we are looking for the same H G Montague but it is worth a try as I am not able to find anything else.
Denise
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Helenna
This is interesting ................... following on from an earlier comment of mine that a good amount of land in Monks Horton was owned by a Col. Henry Montague I now see that Horton Park, Monks Horton was actually owned by the Honourable Lieut. Col. Henry MONTAGUE in 1843 http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Maps/MOK/02.htm
Have you made any progress in the meantime?
Casalguidi :)
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Henry G Montague does not appear to have been christened in Bridge.
Lis
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Hi Montagu-Griffin
Wonder if you are still around after all this time. I am still searching for the elusive Henry Grahame Montagu's parents and have just been handed a newspaper article re Dukes of Manchester and there rather lurid history and did wonder if you would perhaps have any further information relating to them. I did notice in this article that a Lady Mary Montagu is mentioned and do query if she was the person mentioned by Henry G Montagu.
I appreciate this is a long shot but would appreciate any information you could give.
I sincerely hope you dont mind me contacting you re the above.
Best Wishes
HelennaHello Helenna, I'm a Montagu descended from the first Earl of Manchester. I've seen your query re. Henry Graham Montagu. This could be a complete red herring but one of my ancestors George Conway Courtenay Montagu (b.1776 d. 1847) of Lackham House, Wiltshire may have had 2 illegitimate children by two servants. These children were sent (with their mothers) to the work house. I came across this information on the internet posted by Tony Pratt who was researching the Montagu family at Lackham. I wonder if there could be any link?
Not to sure if I have got this right as I did send a reply a short time ago, so hope you got it.
Nice to hear from another Montagu.
Helenna