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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: sesd on Tuesday 05 June 07 12:34 BST (UK)
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At least I am not looking for John Stewart or Agnes Robertson.
I am searching for a family who emigrated to Canada around 1861.
I have searched the IGI and freecen, but have found no possible candidates. The only clues I have are that their McBride neighbours in Canada came from Argyle, so that is one possibility.
Neil McBride died before the 1861 census of Dunwich twp., Elgin co., Ontario.
His widow and children appeared thus on that census:
Barbara McBride / F / age 52 / born Scotland / FC(Free church)/ Farmer / Widow
Mary McBride / F / age 24 / born Scotland / FC
John McBride / M / age 14 / born Scotland / FC / in school
Catherine McBride / F / age 17 / born Scotland / FC
Can anyone find this family before their immigration? Can you give me some ideas where I might look?
Sharon Stewart Duff
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Hi,
Here's a list of all the Neil McBrides cut and pasted from the Scotland 1851 census:
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Not very promising, but I'll be happy to look up further information on any of them if you think there may be a connection.
Mike.
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Thanks Mike,
This one looks like a possibility, to me:
Neil McBride Barbara abt 1797 Campbleton, Argyle Head Campbeltown Argyll
Sharon
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That was my first thought, but I'm not so sure now. Neil and Barbara seem to have had a son Neil 14 in 1851, and in 1841 Barbara was living alone with sons Neil 4, and Charles 11. No mention of the children you listed from the 1861 census.
The only positive thing is that they don't seem to be in Scotland after 1851.
Mike.
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Hi Sharon and Mike
From IGI, these look to be some of the children for Neil McBride and Barbara MORRISON ( married/banns on 24 JUN 1824 Campbeltown, Argyll, Scotland):
1. MARGARET MCBRIDE Birth: 25 SEP 1827/ Christening: 27 SEP 1827 Campbeltown, Argyll, Scotland
2. CHARLES MCBRIDE Birth: 31 JAN 1830/ Christening: 03 FEB 1830 Campbeltown, Argyll, Scotland
3. NEILL MCBRIDE Birth: 18 APR 1836/ Christening: 20 APR 1836 Campbeltown, Argyll, Scotland
There is also one more couple with those names, Barbara's maiden name THOMSON:
JOHN MCBRYDE Birth: 12 JAN 1842/ Christening: 28 JAN 1842 South Knapdale, Argyll, Scotland
Regards.
Monica
Added: There is a death on Scotlands People for a Barbara Morrison/McBride which might be connected to the first couple. If you decide to view it Sharon, it would help you at least exclude this couple, if it is the correct death entry:
1858 MCBRIDE BARBARA MORRISON F 63 PARTICK GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 646/02 0114
No deaths show for a Barbara Thomson/McBride in Scotland.
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Thanks Monica,
Barbara McBride's ages in Canada on the censuses and her death record, make her born about 1809, which would make her rather young to be Barbara MORRISON married in 1824. She died in Manitoba in 1887 at the age of 77.
I hadn't come across Barbara Thompson. The John you cite would be too old to be son John in Canada, but it would not be surprising if the Canadian John was a replacement for an earlier son with the same name.
Since they were Free Kirk in Canada, they may not have had baptisms recorded in the established church, But I had hoped that the census records might show them up.
Maybe focussing on South Knapdale, Argyleshire would be worth it. Perhaps their census records don't have the correct names. I have seen that happen more than once.
Sharon
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Hi Sharon,
Just had a quick look through the 1841/51 censuses for South Knapdale and couldn't find any McBrides or McBrydes at all.
Don't suppose it's relevant, but the nearest (in 1851) were Niel & Barbara Brodie born c.1798 & c.1795 respectively. Their children were Mary 16, Jane 14, Dugald 10, Catharine 7, John 5, & Lillias 1 Mth.
Good luck with the search.
Mike.
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Well spotted Mike :) - that Brodie family is a good possibility.
Sharon, this is the 1851 entry for that family. Everyone showing as born in South Knapdale apart from Barbara:
Niel Brodie 53, agri. lab. b.
Barbara Brodie 46, b. Glassary, Argyll
Mary Brodie 16
Jane Brodie 14
Dugald Brodie 10
Catharine Brodie 7
John Brodie 5
Lillias Brodie 1 Mo
John Brodie 65, brother, agri. lab.
Address: Baileyerzagan Cottage, South Knapdale
Pretty close match on ages for children Mary, Catherine and John in the 1861 Census in Canada.
Regards.
Monica
ADDED: Neil Brody and Barbara McTavish's children show in IGI under Brody. Hard to say whether Brody became McBride - not a standard variant of the name :-\
Cannot see any other couple on the 1841 census that makes some connection - we should at least be able to find daughter Mary on that one....and I can't so far.
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I've been admiring the way you worked out this puzzle, Mike and Monica. Fascinating stuff!
There's a Mary b 1834 to Neill MCBRIDE & Effie MCTAVISH. She's possibly/probably the Mary aged 16 in the 1851 and 24 in the 1861. But is Effie the same as Barbara or might she be an earlier wife?
There's a likely 1841 household but with a few discrepancies:
SCT1841/533/6/6/1
Clachbreck, South Knapdale
All BRODIE - all b Argyllshire
John 45 Ag Lab
Niel 40 Ag Lab
Catherine 80
Mary 30
Mary 6
Jean 4
Dugald 1
Discrepancies:
John 45 (if it's the same John) is listed as 65 in the 1851?
Is Mary, 30, the same as Barbara? Compare age (rounded down) with Barbara's 46 in 1851, 52 in 1861, and 77 at death in 1887. Or was Barbara elsewhere on census night?
Summing up the births:
All South Knapdale. Ages in 1841, 1851 and 1861 appended.
Neill MCBRIDE/Effie MCTAVISH
Mary b Oct 1834, bap 9 Feb 1835 6, 16, 24
Niel BRODY/Barbara MACTAVISH
Jean b 17 Apr, bap 1 May 1837 4, 14, -
Neill BRODIE/Barbara MCTAVISH
Dougald b 18 Aug, bap 22 Aug 1839 1, 10, -
Niel MCBRYDE/Barbara THOMSON
John b 12 Jan, bap 18 Jan 1842 -
Niel BRODDIE/Barbara MCTAVISH
Catherine b 1 Mar, bap 30 Mar 1843 -, 7, 17
Niel BRODIE/Barbara THOMSON
John b 2 Dec 1845, bap 18 Apr 1846 -, 5, 14
?
Lilias b ca Feb 1851 1m, -, -
Sharon, perhaps looking at the actual OPR entries for the births/baptisms might help? Either through ScotlandsPeople or (cheaper!) ordering in the relevant film to your local LDS Family History Centre.
JAP
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Hi Sharon
On reading through these posts again, I've just realised that you stated: "The only clues I have are that their McBride neighbours in Canada came from Argyle, so that is one possibility"
Can you post this other McBride family from the 1861 census. Maybe we can make a connection from that.
Regards.
Monica
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It is a real mystery isn't it? Much better than finding your genealogy all done for you because your ancestors were famous.
There are 2 McBride families in the Dunwich area.
Here is one family, they immigrated before 1846:
Neil McBride (1806- 18 May 1876) b. Kilfinan Parish, Cowel, Argyll, Scotland Burial: Cowal-Mcbride Cemetary, Dunwich
& Mary McLeish (20 Dec 1810 - 25 Jan 1892)
Children: 1. John L. McBride (1833-1912)
2. Jean McBride] (1835-1839)
3. Margaret McBride (1837-1903)
4. Nancy Ann McBride (1841-1914)
5. Malcolm McBride (1845-1932)
6. Alexander McBride (1847-1930) first one born in Canada
7. Mary Jane McBride (1850-1930)
8. Jennet McBride (1854- )
There is also:
Dugald McBride & Sarah Paterson from Argyleshire,
son Neil, born about 1829
daughter Margaret b abt 1827
daughter Mary born abt 1837
daughter Christie b. ?
other children ?
Margaret and Neil had a cousin Lilley McBride living with them in 1881. She was born in Scotland abt 1854.
Does this help or confuse?
Sharon
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Sharon, before I go back searching on the censuses and IGI land, one silly question from me :P - you have been able to verify that Barbara's husband was called Neil from perhaps her death cert or other source?
It's a pity there's another Neil McBride over in Canada for 1861, knocks out the possibility of McBride brothers having emigrated together if we have two Neils. The closest connection would therefore be cousins perhaps.
Regards.
Monica :)
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Yes, I looked today at the 1881 Canadian census on FamilySearch and at any other possibly relevant online Canadian censuses.
But they didn't seem to help with this puzzle.
The IGI has the marriage of Dugald MCBRIDE & Sarah PATTERSON in North Knapdale, 29 Jun 1821.
Were it my puzzle, I'd certainly be looking at the OPR entries in South Knapdale - either on SP or (preferably) via a film per the LDS.
JAP
PS: The swap of MCTAVISH and THOMSON is not a problem, I think. MCBRIDE and BRODIE stranger - but relevant that births/baptisms for either name are found with either of MCTAVISH or THOMSON.
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Neil McBride and Mary McLeish's marriage looks to have been outside of Argyll on 3 JUN 1831 West Or Old Parish, Greenock, Renfrew, Scotland. This would fit with the first son John that you have, born 1833, as per your records.
Regards.
Monica
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Monica,
About the Barbara - Neil marriage: all I have is the marriage record for their daughter, Catherine which lists her as the daughter of Neil and Barbara McBride. Fortunately she married after the civil registration began.
I don't know what happenned to daughter Mary.
Son John must have married about 1870-71, which is before the civil registration.
I have no other documents actually listing father Neil.
Sharon
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I'm really struggling to find anything at all in the censuses :'( - across all 3 family groups. I get the feeling some of them may have left in the late 1840s from the info you have posted. In which case, we only have the 1841 Census to try and find them and this is the least flexible of all the censuses for search purposes.
I'm not seeing anything under McBride and the standard variants. I googled for variants on the surname and nearly ran away given the multitude! For example:
Spelling variations include:
MacBride , McBride , Macbryde , Macbraid , MacKillbride ,
McGillbride , Macilvride , Mackelbreed , McBryde ,
Bridson , Brydson , Killbride , Gilbride , MacBridan ,
Macllvride , MacBraid , and many More.
How has their surname been transcribed I wonder - they should be there in 1841 :-\
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Monica,
Thanks so much for all the effort you have put into this.
I guess it is possible that Barbara is not Mary's mother, or that Barbara is the mother but Neil is not her father and Mary and Barbara had a different surname in 1841. Based on the difference in ages being over 21 years, there is a good chance Barbara is Mary's mother.
I still have not been able to find any matches in 1841.
I wish you could do a search that said in effect, "here is a group of first names and ages, find the family that matches."
Sharon
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Sharon and Monica,
Are you saying, then, that you have dismissed the MCBRIDE/MCBRYDE/BRODDIE/BRODIE/BRODY-MCTAVISH/THOMSON births in South Knapdale?
And the 1841 BRODIE family at Clachbreck, South Knapdale?
And the 1851 BRODIE family (brilliantly found by mike175) at Baileyerzagan, South Knapdale?
If, however, you still have the 1851 BRODIE family in the picture (which seems reasonable) that would keep the South Knapdale births also in the picture. And - given that the 1851 family has Mary 16, Jane 14, Dugald 10, Catharine 7, John 5, Lillias 1m all born South Knapdale - that family would certainly be expected to be in South Knapdale in 1841.
Argyllshire 1841 is 100% covered on FreeCEN.
On FreeCEN in 1841 in South Knapdale, there are no MCBRIDE/MCBRYDE families, and only two BRODIE families - the Clachbreck family (with a Mary 6, Jane 4, and Dugald 1) and a family of Alexander 42, Christian 36, John 17, James 15, Duncan 13, Dugald 9, Alexander 7 at Baile Boidheach.
Also in South Knapdale are an odd James BRODIE 14, a male servant in Kilmory, and an odd Mary BRIDE 15, a female servant in Fermoch.
So the 1841 Clachbreck family would still seem to be in the picture.
JAP
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Sharon,
After your last post I did a 'wildcard' search of the 1841 Argyllshire census for all the Barbaras born around 1809, and found none associated with either a Neil or a Mary of the right age (as she would have been the only child from your original list born by 1841) . . . I extended the search to the whole of Scotland, but as there were over 700 I postponed that one . . .
Mike.
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Me too Mike ;)
JAP, I think at this stage we are discounting nothing. The problem we are having is with the few entries we have been able to find in either the 1841 Census (the BRODIE family) and the small number of IGI/ OPR entries that may relate to the three families, there is nothing more that lets us connect to the groups we have to be able to go back or forward.
Again, casting the net wide, I've tried searching for the Lilley McBride who shows in Ontario in 1881. As Sharon said, she shows as born in Scotland, age 24, so born c. 1856 and a cousin. This is post registration - but so far can't find her. Hoping to find her parents (and a link back to Neil, husband of Barbara) in the post registration era of Scotland but no luck so far.
Regards.
Monica
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I also tried the "show me all the Barbara's and Barbra's and all the Neil's (Niel's and Neal's) as well. If they aren't from Argyle, it is truely overwhelming.
I wouldn't assume that there are no other children. I would think that with a 10-12 year span between these 3, and the first when the mother was in her late 20's, there probably were others. These are just the ones that survived and remained with their mother until at least 1861. In previous years there may have been more. They may have died or not accompanied their parents to Canada.
Sharon
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:o I think I found Dugald McBride and Sarah Paterson (not helped by Ancestry's transcription of their name which I'll leave as indexed!):
Dugd McVorgde 50, Subr (?) Tenant
Sarah McVorgde 50
Margt McVorgde 15
Neil McVorgde 13
Address: Teretigan, Kilberry Argyll
I have checked on the SP index (not showing on FreeCen - no idea why as they are supposed to be 100% for Argyll) and found this likely corresponding entry:
1841 MCBRYDE SARAH F 50 KILCALMONELL AND KILBERRY /ARGYLL 516/00 006/00 015
Now, from personal experience with my MacDonalds in Argyll ::), Sarah and Marion are sometimes interchangeable (no idea why). I found these entries yesterday on SP's OPR index for births/christenings which now make more sense with the above potential 1841 entry:
1 16/12/1823 MCBRIDE KATHERINE DUGALD MCBRIDE/MARION PATERSON FR475 F Kilcalmonell and Kilberry /ARGYLL 516/ 0020 0037
2 20/04/1834 MCBRIDE MARY DUGALD MCBRIDE/MARRION PATERSON FR632 F Kilcalmonell and Kilberry /ARGYLL 516/ 0020 0336
Given the ages for Dugald and Sarah born c. 1787-91, we also have their marriage on the OPRs in North Knapdale on 29 Jun 1821. Makes sense.
Who they are and how they connect to the other two families still no idea ::)
Regards.
Monica
FreeCen do have them. Original writing must be awful. It is also a complete listing of the household which looks to have gone over to two pages:
MCRORGDE Dugald 50 Sub Tenant
MCRORGDE Sarah 50
MCRORDGE Margaret 15
MCRORGDE Neil 13
MCRORDGE Chirsty 9 b. Argyllshire
MCRORDGE Mary 7 b. Argyllshire
MCALPINE Mary 60 Merchant b. Argyllshire
Address: Teretigan, Kilberry
There is a note for the household regarding legibility of surname. Also, the first few entries do not have birth county details, again I would imagen due to illegibility.
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Some more births in Kilcalmonell & Kilberry for Dugald & 'Sarah' - for completeness, I'll include the births Monica found and also the marriage.
Dugald MACBRIDE m Sarah PATERSON, 29 Jun 1821, North Knapdale
Births in Kilcalmonell & Kilberry:
Katherine MCBRIDE b 16 Dec 1823, Dugald MCBRIDE/Marion PATERSON
Margaret BRODIE b 10 Nov 1825, Dugald BRODIE/Marrion PATERSON
Niel BRODIE b 17 Feb 1828, Dougald BRODIE/Marrion PETERSON
Christian BRODIE b 17 Apr 1832, Dugald BRODIE/Marrion PETERSON
Mary MCBRIDE b 20 Apr 1834, Dugald MCBRIDE/Marrion PATERSON
Good to see another instance of McBRIDE and BRODIE being interchangeable.
If Sarah and Marion are interchangeable (!), why not Effie, Mary and Barbara ;D
An Ephan MCTAVISH was b 9 Jun 1804, Glassary, Donald MCTAVISH/Margaret MCALPIN
Sharon, Do you have passenger/migration records for Barbara and family? That is, do you know that your Neil emigrated to Canada with Barbara or might she have gone as a widow? And similarly do you know which children migrated with her? I am wondering whether there are any burial records or MIs for South Knapdale (not just for Neil but also for the missing children - although, of course, of the South Knapdale family, Jane/Jean might have married or might have been working elsewhere in Canada in 1861, similarly Dugald might be working elsewhere?).
JAP
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I wonder..... ::)
We have the Dugald and Sarah (Marion) family up to 1841. Their son Neil shows in 1881 in Canada with a cousin Lilley McBride living with him. I have looked post registration and can't find her so had reached the conclusion that perhaps her age was wrong and she was born pre-1855. I wonder if this is her and as such making the link between Dugald & Sarah/Neil & Barbara.
From the previous entry for the 1851 Brodie Family in South Knapdale:
Niel Brodie 53, agri. lab. b.
Barbara Brodie 46, b. Glassary, Argyll
Mary Brodie 16
Jane Brodie 14
Dugald Brodie 10
Catharine Brodie 7
John Brodie 5
Lillias Brodie 1 Month
John Brodie 65, brother, agri. lab.
Address: Baileyerzagan Cottage, South Knapdale
Regards.
Monica
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JAP
I have never been sure that Neil emmigrated. I have a whole spreadsheet of the 6 contemporary Neil McBrides in the area where they settled, colour coded to distinguish references to them and their descendants on censuses, marriage records, tombstones, deeds, etc. I have one tombstone that I am not positive belongs to some other Neil, but I also can't assign it to him either.
Monica,
I also have the Sarah/Marion interchangability in my Islay ancestry.
I think that the 1851 Brodie family in South Knapdale looks like a very good match. Lillie/Lillias makes a possible connection with at least one of the other McBrides in Dunwich, Ontario.
My notes show a letter from Dugald McBride and Archibald Patterson dated 1847, asking to purchase their land in Ontario. I am not clear whether the letter came from Scotland or if they were already in Canada
I am really overawed at the amount of work and the great detective skills you all have put into this mystery. I never could have found them on my own.
JAP, I think that the 1841 South Knapdale - Clachbreck might be the same ones
John Brodie 45 Ag. Lab.
Niel Brodie 40 Ag. Lab.
Catherine Brodie 80
Mary Brodie 30
Mary Brodie 6
Jean Brodie 4
Dugald Brodie 1
John, Neil, children Mary and Jean match quite well. Adult Mary could be Barbara, or she might be a first wife.
Thank you once again, Monica Mike and JAP.
I'm off to the library this afternoon to look for Mary & William Goodlass. Mary is the one daughter of John McBride, son of Neil and Barbara. Goodlasses should be easy to find, right?
Sharon
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Hi all,
Well, I wonder whether anyone has access to Argyllshire MIs - there just might be some clues ...
The challenge with cousin Lilley MCBRIDE, 24, b Scotland, living in Ontario in 1881 with Neil MCBRIDE 52 (presumably the son of Dugald & Sarah/Marion b 17 Feb 1828) and Margaret MCBRIDE 54 (?Neil's sister b 10 Nov 1825) is not just Lilley's age (if she's the 1 month old Lillias in the 1851 census at Baileyerzagan Cottage, South Knapdale then the age is way out) BUT where was a Lillias and/or Lilley in the 1861 census! Either in Canada or in Scotland ...
It would also be good to be able to trace what happened to Jean (Jean b 17 Apr 1837, Jean 4 at Clachbreck in 1841, Jane 14 at Baileyerzagan in 1851); and Dugald (Dougald b 18 Aug 1839, Dugald 1 at Clachbreck in 1841, Dugald 10 at Baileyerzagan in 1851) given that they aren't in the 1861 with Barbara.
Another matter which it would be nice to have sorted out is the age of John BRODIE (if these two are one and the same) - 45 (rounded down) at Clachbreck in 1841, 65 at Baileyerzagan in 1851.
As for the Effie/Mary/Barbara puzzle ...
Are these all one and the same person.
From the birth records, Effie MCTAVISH is listed as the mother of Mary b Oct 1834, and Barbara MCTAVISH/THOMSON as the mother of Jean b 17 Apr 1837, Dougald b 18 Aug 1839, John b 12 Jan 1842 (presumably died young), Catherine b 1 Mar 1843, and John b 2 Dec 1845.
Barbara is listed as aged 46, b Glassary in the 1851 Baileyerzagan census. But as 52 in the 1861. If the 1851 is correct that would give a birthdate of ca 1805 - and would be a perfect match for Ephan MCTAVISH b 9 Jun 1804 in Glassary.
Mary 30 (rounded down) in 1841 at Clackbreck might be Effie/Barbara - certainly Barbara (even if she is not the same as Effie) was well and truly on the scene by that time having had children in 1837 and 1839.
Does anyone know of any of these names being interchanged ...
Sharon, in your initial post you had Barbara listed as a Farmer in the 1861 in Ontario. I take it you haven't found any correspondence from her (or Neil, if he did go to Canada) re purchase of land.
JAP
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John Brodie, brother, who is living with Neil and Barbara in 1851, is alive and well past official registration:
1861: John Brodie 67 (c. 1794), gardener, b. S Knapdale - Address: Ormsary, S Knapdale
1871: John Brodie 78 (c. 1793), gardener, b. S Knapdale - Address: Sayrahacrin (cottage), S Knapdale
In summary:
1841 - 45 years
1851 - 65 years
1861 - 67 years
1871 - 78 years
With the exception of the 1851 census, birth year likely to be in the range of 1793/4, with the normal rounding down for the 1841 entry.
John, as the rest of the family, is proving hard to find on the death index of SP...
Regards.
Monica
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I have found John Brodie's death I believe :D His entry was the obvious one but I put off looking at it firstly because of the age showing at death and secondly because of the parish being some way away from South Knapdale:
1872 BRODIE JOHN 82 LOCHGILPHEAD /ARGYLL 526/00 0052
His death was reported by a sister Catherine, and he shows as single. Parents Dugald Brodie and Mary Morrison. OPR entries taking us back to South Knapdale:
DUGALD BRODIE Marriages: Spouse: MARY MORRISON
Marriage: 01 JAN 1782 South Knapdale, Argyll, Scotland
And some of their children, a mixture from the IGI OPR extracts and SP....including a surprise entry 8) which also explains the variant Bride/Briddie etc.:
1. JAMES MCBRIDE Christening: 12 AUG 1783 South Knapdale, Argyll, Scotland
2. 31/10/1795 BRIDDIE NEILL DUGALD BRIDDIE/MARY MORISON South Knapdale /ARGYLL 533/ 0010 0039 - Christening
3. 01/04/1801 BRODIE ANN DUGALD BRODIE/MARY MORRISON South Knapdale /ARGYLL 533/ 0010 0061 - Christening
4. 01/04/1801 BRODIE CATHRINE DUGALD BRODIE/MARY MORRISON South Knapdale /ARGYLL - Christening
We also have sons John born early 1790s (parents confirmed by DC) and Dugald born c. 1787-91 (unconfirmed but v. likely).
Regards.
Monica
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Likely death entry for sister Catherine on SP:
1880 BRODIE CATHERINE MCMILLAN F 79 LOCHGILPHEAD
/ARGYLL 526/00 0024
Possible marriage entry on the OPRs:
CATHRINE BRODIE Marriages: Spouse: DUNCAN MCMILLAN
Marriage: MAY 1830 South Knapdale, Argyll, Scotland
1851 Census:
Duncan McMillan 56, ag. lab. , b. S Knapdale
Catharine McMillan 50, b. S Knapdale
Alexander Donachie 22, lodger, b. Ireland
Address: Ormsary (lodge), S Knapdale
By 1861, they seemed to have moved to Lochgilphead:
Duncan McMillan 56, gardener, b. S Knapdale
Catharine McMillan 50, b. S Knapdale
Address: Campbellton Road Mlachlans Land, Lochgilphead
Just realised - I'm getting confused between my Lochgilphead and Lochgoilhead :P - Lochgilphead where John died is actually in the parish of S Knapdale so makes sense.
Can't see any children for them in the censuses. In 1841 they are also living alone. The only possible entry (and likely an early death if theirs):
DOUGALD MCMILLAN Birth: APR 1835/ Christening: 10 APR 1836 South Knapdale, Argyll, Scotland Parents: DUNCAN MCMILLAN and CATHRINE MCMILLAN
Monica
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1. Good to have that age discrepancy for John cleared up! And great additional information.
2. Sharon, re the challenge with cousin Lilley MCBRIDE. I don't know what is on Canadian certificates but I am wondering whether any later records might help (e.g. reveal the name of her father, show a different age) - marriage or death.
3. Monica, I'm starting to think that any name variants are possible ;) Re Dougald MCMILLAN b Apr 1835, bap 10 Apr 1836, parents Duncan MCMILLAN/Cathrine MCMILLAN: I'm wondering whether the following might be a twin - Marron MCFARLANE, b Apr 1835, bap 11 Jun 1835, parents Duncan MCFARLANE/Cathrine BRODIE (perhaps the baptisms were performed at different dates because of the poor health of each little one at that time).
JAP
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I do not see Dougald or Jean in Canada with their mother.
Lilly never married and was listed in 1891 age 40, living with Margaret McBride, farmer, 60 born Scotland, and Dugald Tolman 30 b. Ont. Relationship for both to Margaret was "dom."
Lilly on the 1901 census was a domestic, 47 yrs old born Apr. 15, 1853 in Ontario, but on the 1911 census as 56 yrs., born Apr 1855 in Scotland. Unfortunately the question of date of immigration is not answered in either year.
Children of Dugald McBride & Sarah PATERSON
Margaret and Neil never married
Christina married Neil McLean
Mary married John Tolman December 20, 1860 in Dunwich, Ontario
Neil died AUG 12, 1883 and lists in his will:
- sister Margaret McBride, Dunwich, spinster
- cousin Lilley McBride
- nephew Dugald Tollman, son of sister Mary
- nephew Dugald McLean, son of sister Christie
Margaret died intestate FEB 9, 1894
petitioners to her estate were:
Christina McLean, Dunwich, sister and wife of Neil McLean,
Mary Talman, Dunwich, sister and wife of John Talman
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Sharon
Slowly we are chipping away at this - it's been challenging fun ;)
A couple of thoughts here having immersed myself in Brodies in the last couple of days. I'll list them in no order of importance:
1. I do think that Lilly McBride is probably the Lilias showing as b. 1851 to Neil and Barbara. There is nothing for her in Scotland for 1861/71. It would be brilliant to find her in Canada for those years. I don't suppose you have been able to find her death cert. (?) to date. Her age on the censuses that you do have her for seem erratic. The 1891 one certainly shows her as born in 1851, as for the rest they are out by a few years but as with all recording of ages on censuses, -5yrs is not unusual in some cases.
2. I also don't suppose that Barbara's maiden name was included in her estate papers/ death cert. following her death in 1887 or you would have said. I am not familiar with Canadian death certs. Thinking of her children's death entries if you have them (?), do they not show mother's maiden name like the Scottish ones do?
3. One thought to bear in mind with that 1841 Census entry with Neil and a Mary in S Knapdale. I still don't think that Mary and Barbara are one and the same. It wouldn't surprise me if something you said earlier was not closer to the truth. It may be that the Mary Brodie is a sister to Neil (his mother was called that). It is possible, as you said, that first wife may have died by the time of the 1841 Census and that he married Barbara after this date. Hard to confirm either way unless we find parent details for the children showing in 1841.
4. There is only one other BRODIE family in South Knapdale in 1841, headed by an Alexander Brodie. His age would make him potentially a sibling to Neil, Dugald and John etc. Might be worthwhile following up to see whether he also left for Canada. Cannot see him from the 1841 Census onwards.
Regards.
Monica
ADDED: Re No.4 above. I think Alexander Brodie may have died pre 1851. This is the family's entry in 1841:
Alexr Brodie 42, agr. Lab
Christian Brodie 36
Mary Brodie 19
John Brodie 17
James Brodie 15
Duncan Brodie 13
Dugald Brodie 9
Alexr Brodie 7
Address: Baile Boidhead, S Knapdale
And in 1851, this is probably wife Christina with some of the children;
Christina McBride 55, mother in law
Duncan McBride 21, brother in law
John McLarty 26, agr. lab. b. Jura, Argyll
Mary McLarty 27
Alexander McLarty 1 Mo
Address: Baileboiach (cottage), S Knapdale - everyone apart from John McL showing as born in S Knapdale
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Monica,
1. I will search a bit more on the 1861-71 censuses for Lilly, but it may take some time, as haying season has started and genealogy work will be slowed for the next couple of weeks.
2. I have sent for her death record, but have not yet received it, so I am not sure what is included.
3. I suspect there were probably a number more siblings of John & Neil, etc. Considering there was a marriage in 1782 followed immediately by a son, then a 10 year gap.
4. I have 1 Alexander McBride in the section of my notes entitled "misc McBrides not named Neil" He was a lake boat captain & vessl owner. according to the 1871 census he was born abt 1820 in Scotland. His wife was Mary Campbell (b abt 1813 scotland) daughter of John Campbell
He had a son named John born in Ontario in 1845, a daughter named Annie Jane and one other child with her before she died in 1862.
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sesd,
You are fortunate to have so much info (online!) from the Ontario Genealogical Society.
I looked at some of this earlier today and made some connexions (some mentioned in your recent post) - I might post some tomorrow (it's early am here in the Antipodes!).
MCBRIDEs from Argyllshire (whether or not connected to yours!) certainly seemed to have been very early (or older) immigrants to Ontario! Including:
http://www.elginogs.ca/cemeteries/stthomas/westaveOSS.htm
OSS007 White marble slab on ground.
In Memory of/DONALD McBRIDE/Native of Argyleshire/Scotland/who departed this life/ Aug. 24, 1851/age 82 years/Prepare to follow me
The Kilfinan lot might be connected to your lot - but I suspect not (though who knows). The Kilfinan Neil looks like a brother of John (who m Catherine MCCALLUM and went to Ontario in the 1830s) - both probably sons of Alexander MCBRIDE & Mary BAXTER. John apparently died in 1843.
I do think that your Neil (husband of Barbara) and Dugald (husband of Sarah/Marion) were brothers - but no proof!
Cheers,
JAP
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Slowly we are chipping away at this - it's been challenging fun ;)
A couple of thoughts here having immersed myself in Brodies in the last couple of days. I'll list them in no order of importance:
1. I do think that Lilly McBride is probably the Lilias showing as b. 1851 to Neil and Barbara. There is nothing for her in Scotland for 1861/71. It would be brilliant to find her in Canada for those years. I don't suppose you have been able to find her death cert. (?) to date. Her age on the censuses that you do have her for seem erratic. The 1891 one certainly shows her as born in 1851, as for the rest they are out by a few years but as with all recording of ages on censuses, -5yrs is not unusual in some cases.
Monica, please let us know about these "erratic" ages. As far as I'm aware, we haven't, here on RC, heard about Lilley's age in in any census apart from the Canadian 1881 and (if she's the same person as Lillias) the Scotland 1851!? It would certainly be good were her age to be variable. I seem to recall (could very well be wrong and will check tomorrow) that I noticed a possible death of a Lily MCBRIDE in Ontario in 1928 (no age given) in those online records I mentioned in my previous post ...
3. One thought to bear in mind with that 1841 Census entry with Neil and a Mary in S Knapdale. I still don't think that Mary and Barbara are one and the same. It wouldn't surprise me if something you said earlier was not closer to the truth. It may be that the Mary Brodie is a sister to Neil (his mother was called that). It is possible, as you said, that first wife may have died by the time of the 1841 Census and that he married Barbara after this date. Hard to confirm either way unless we find parent details for the children showing in 1841.
Monica, of course it's more than possible that Mary is a sister and that Barbara was elsewhere ...
BUT the fact is that we DO have birth details for children showing in 1841 (Mary 6, Jean 4, Dugald 1) with at least two of them having Barbara as mother (and Barbara may very well be Effie given her surname and place and date of birth).
Namely (see my earlier post):
All South Knapdale (and MCTAVISH and THOMSON are most definitely interchangeable, not just in this family but in general):
Neill MCBRIDE/Effie MCTAVISH
- Mary b Oct 1834, bap 9 Feb 1835
Niel BRODY/Barbara MACTAVISH
- Jean b 17 Apr, bap 1 May 1837
Neill BRODIE/Barbara MCTAVISH
- Dougald b 18 Aug, bap 22 Aug 1839
I did see one Barbara THOMSON of an appropriate age elsewhere in the 1841 - but I didn't much like it ...
JAP
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JAP
From Sharon's previous post (#30), ages for Lily:
1881: 24
1891: 40
1901: 47
1911: 56
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;) Found the marriage, from the OPRs, closing off all the question marks:
01/02/1834 BRODIE NEILL BABBY MCTAVISH/FR402 South Knapdale /ARGYLL 533/ 0020 0215
...Babby, a new one on me ;D
On the issue of McTavish and Thomson:
THOMSON, 'son of THOM," q.v. A fairly numerous surname in Scotland. . . . Many individuals of this name in Perthshire and Argyllshire are really Mactavishes. The surname in these districts is an Anglicized form of Gaelic Mac Thomais, 'son of Thomas,' or of Mac Thomaidh, 'son of Tommie.' The name is usually spelled MaKcome (3 syllables) in the early records, and was formerly common in Upper Deeside. . . . In some instances it is also an Englishing of MACCOMIE, q.v. See also THOMASON.
Source: www.thompsonfamilies.org
Back to the 1841 Census, just realized that we are all working off transcriptions and indexes. Sharon, it may be worthwhile you looking at the original image for the family in 1841. If writing is questionable, BABBY to MARY might simply be a mistranscription simply due to legibility. I've just checked the SP 1841 index, they also have her as Mary, in this case age 50 (instead of 30 as FreeCen/Ancestry):
1841 BRODIE MARY 50 SOUTH KNAPDALE /ARGYLL 533/00 006/00 001
Regards.
Monica
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8) Think I have also found Barbara's OPR's birth entry.
Having seen her marriage entry under Babby...I believe that's exactly how her birth was registered:
03/08/1807 MCTAVISH BABY JOHN MCTAVISH/JEAN MORISON FR265 Glassary/ARGYLL 511/ 0020 0010
SP do not include the word 'baby' - meaning just that in their index - for first names (in the situation where the baby I assume was unnamed and unlikely to survive for example), so given we have Barbara as Babby at her marriage, it would appear that she was Bab(b)y at birth.
With her parents names as John and Jean, we now also have Scottish naming order for the children of Neil and Barbara:
Mary b. 1834 - after Neil's mother
Jean b. 1837 - after Barbara's mother
Dugald b. 1840 - after Neil's father
John b. 1842 (died before 1846) - after Barbara's father
Other children showing to John McTavish and Jean Morrison:
1. LACHLAN MCTAVISH Birth: 11 JAN 1802 Glassary, Argyll, Scotland
2. LILLY MCTAVISH Birth: 12 AUG 1804 Glassary, Argyll, Scotland
3. ARCHIBALD MCTAVISH Birth: 29 MAR 1814 Glassary, Argyll, Scotland
There may be more entries for the reading of the marriage/banns on SP which could give you clues as to where bride and groom were from. There is one entry showing on IGI on 12 APR 1801 South Knapdale, Argyll, Scotland.
Regards.
Monica
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Wow, what a good group of detectives!
Just a quick note before I get back to the hay.
Barabara was listed as Barbary on her death certificate.
Sharon
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Sharon,
I'd like to echo that 'Wow!' . . . there's been some serious detective work while I was away over the weekend.
Not sure if I can be of much more use in exploring the alternative names as I only have access to the census through Ancestry which has no original scans for Scotland, unlike England where I have solved many a mystery by re-interpreting the handwriting.
I'll keep watching your progress in case I might contribute further, but meanwhile good luck with the search . . . and I hope it keeps fine for the hay!
Mike.
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Wow - things certainly have progressed in a few hours. Monica, sorry about the census ages - I must have been half asleep (it was very late here in the Antipodes). I'm relieved that it finally seems to be agreed that the 1841 family is the right one (I felt people were getting sick of me pushing it since post #8 ;))
I am kicking myself for missing that marriage! I'm starting to think that perhaps it's only just appeared in the IGI! Surely I would have searched for marriages of a Neil MCBRIDE with spouse MCTAVISH (none in the whole of the IGI); and for Neil BRODIE with spouse MCTAVISH (there's only the one in the whole of the IGI). No, I guess it was there and somehow I missed it. Perhaps I searched for MACTAVISH and assumed the IGI would combine MCTAVISH & MACTAVISH - which I now find it doesn't (however, it does combine - note the space - MC TAVISH & MAC TAVISH!!).
I've checked back in the IGI for Barbara/Babby/Baby's birth and can see why I didn't find it (I'd had a good look at the Glassary batches - though there are many entries as Glassary seems to be a MCTAVISH stronghold). The LDS transcribers must have taken 'Baby' to mean 'a baby' - so they didn't enter any given name! It just shows as MCTAVISH female :(
Just for completeness, here are some more children to John M(A)CTAVISH and Jean/Jane MOR(R)ISON as they appear in the IGI:
John MCTAVISH m Jean MORRISON, South Knapdale, 12 Apr 1801 (the extracted record which Monica posted - there are also LDS submissions about this couple, some of of which refer to them as 'of Monedrain, Glassary').
All Glassary
Lachlan MCTAVISH b 11 Jan 1802
Lilly MCTAVISH b 12 Aug 1804
Female MCTAVISH b 3 Aug 1807
Angus MACTAVISH b 1 Jan 1810
Robert MACTAVISH b 19 Dec 1811
Archibald MCTAVISH b 29 Mar 1814
John MACTAVISH b 12 Mar 1816
Daniel MACTAVISH b 2 Feb 1820
I see now that the extras are all spelled MACTAVISH - they came up because I searched in the three batches (C115112, C115114, C115115) just for mother Jean MORISON (the IGI does combine MORISON/MORRISON and also Jean/Jane!).
MCTAVISH is a pretty common name but John & Jean might be the following MCTAVISH family on FreeCEN in Stroudour, South Knapdale - John 64 Ag Lab, Jean 60, Angus 28 Fisherman, Archibald 26 Fisherman all born ARL. Next door but one in Stroudour is a MCTAVISH family of Lachlan 36 Fisherman, Ann 30, John 8, Archibald 5, Angus 3 all born ARL. There are other possibilities for family members; Lilly seems to have married a Donald MCTAVISH in 1827 and be living in Lochgilphead - Donald 20 Fisherman, Lilly 30, John 12, Jean 9, Alexander 7, Angus 5, Margaret 3, Lilly 1 all born ARL. Etc ...
Mike, as far as I'm aware there are only two ways for distant persons to see the Scotland census scans - either order relevant films in to one's nearest LDS Family History centre OR pay to view them on ScotlandsPeople. I don't have Ancestry access and don't spend my SP credits on RC searches so, for Scotland, I am personally limited to FamilySearch, FreeCEN, and free searches (narrowing parameters but not viewing the results) on SP - and all the great information posted by those who have Ancestry access and who so kindly spend SP credits on others.
Regards to all,
JAP
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Hi JAP,
Thanks for the info re. Scotland census. Actually this is a new area for me since, at the time this thread came up, I just happened to have found a distant cousin who had moved there. Otherwise, to my amazement, I have discovered that my ancestry seems to be almost exclusively from the southern half of England . . . and boringly normal as far as I can trace, which is back to the 16th century on some lines.
I currently have full access to the UK records on Ancestry (which keeps on getting better), and am always happy to look up anything . . . when time permits.
Mike.
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Just to tie up another tiny loose end.
Earlier I mentioned a Barbara THOMSON in the 1841. She was recorded as 45 so definitely too old unless an error. Anyway, I've now realized she must be Barbaret (MCCOLL) THOMSON/MCTAVISH.
1841 Census - in a TURNER household at Auchabh, Lochgilphead are Daniel THOMSON 20 School Master, Matilda THOMSON Female Servant 15, and Barbara THOMSON 45, all born Argyll-shire.
Presumably this family:
John THOMSON m Barbra MCCOLL, 1814, Kilcalmonell & Kilberry
They had:
in Kilcalmonell & Kilberry
Flory THOMSON 1815
Donald THOMSON 1817
and in South Knapdale
Duncan MCTAVISH 1820
Matilda MCTAVISH 1824
John MCTAVISH 1827
Donald b 1817 is presumably Daniel the schoolmaster (Donald and Daniel being two other interchangeable names).
JAP
PS: Thanks very much Mike for the kind offer - I have had Ancestry access in the past and have probably done just about all I can with my lot (my own and my children's paternal ancestors). Incidentally, I've spent a small fortune on ScotlandsPeople :'( on my own Scots ancestor (a Gggma who came to Australia) and my children's Scots ancestor (a Gggpa who came to Australia) - and much much more on what have turned into one-name studies of a couple of rare names on each side. SP and the Scottish records are great - but oh so tempting when one can download such informative results immediately.
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I received the death certificate for Barbary McBride yesterday.
Unfortunately, it doesn't give her parents, but does list her birthplace as Argyleshire, Scotland and her age at death (June 4, 1887) as 77 years 9 months which would make her born about Sep 1809. The date I have for Babby McTavish is Mar 08, 1807, which is close, but is it close enough for her son to have stated something else? Probably, I don't put a lot of faith in calculated birthdates given at death.
I did find son Dugald whose death certificate lists his parents as Neil McBride and Barbara McTavish
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Hi Sharon
Thanks for posting that last piece :) Pity it didn't show her parents' names to tie up the loose ends but not necessarily unusual that her children did not remember the names of their grandparents.
The age at death and birthday, as you say, is also probably a sign of the times.
Hopefully you have gathered enough info to feel confident about Neil and Barbary's parents.
Regards.
Monica :)
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A reply to a long ago mystery. Does anyone remember cousin Lillie, whom we could not pin down?
I suspect that the widow McBride sent her youngest to live with cousins while she and the older kids carved a homestead out of the Ontario forest.
I have just seen her death certificate from 1928 which lists her father Neil McBride and mother Barbara Thompson. They got her age wrong again - birthdate April 15 1856 a whole 5 years after she showed up on the census as 1 month old.
This thread made wonderful reading as a story of cooperative genealogy.
Thanks for the memories.
Sharon
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Hi Sharon
How kind of you to come back and close the chapter with an ending for Lillie :) This was such an interesting and absorbing search. Can't believe it was nearly 5 years ago :o ;D
Monica