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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Aberdeenshire => Topic started by: genjen on Monday 04 June 07 15:13 BST (UK)
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Hello,
According to the death certificate of my 4 x great grandmother, Christian Robertson, her parents were James Robertson and Elizabeth Sanit. I have come to the conclusion that this is a mis-spelling of Saint.
Can anyone help me with the search for the marriage of these two people? Were there any more offspring?
Christian Robertson was born around 1784, Cruden. She married William Daniel in 1806 in Peterhead, died 13/1/1866 at Blackhill, Cruden. I have no dates for either James Robertson or Elizabeth S.
Any help would be most welcome.
Ta,
Jen
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Hi jen
I have found confirmation of the marriage in Scotland;s People
12/07/1806 ROBERTSON CHRISTIAN WILLIAM DANIEL/ F Peterhead /ABERDEEN 232/ 0020 0366
This is an OPR entry and parents names are not on it as this wasn't a requirement pre 1855. William is listed as living in Cruden but the marriage was in Peterhead which would have been the bride's parish.
If you have Christian's death cert her parents will be on it and you can use this to search for the parents marriage.
Christian's birth is not recorded on the OPR baptisms in Scotland. This is a common problem as unless anythimng other than Established Church of Scotland won't be there. Also have checked for sibling but nothing there cos sometimes they had all the children baptised at once.
If James or Elizabeth died after 1955 then their death certs would have their parents names on. There are no death records before that. Some churches do have records of the rent of the mort cloth but these are few and far between and you'd need to know the church.
Ann
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Hi,
Thank you for the marriage confirmation. I had the year but not the exact date.
It was Christian's death certificate which gave me the names of James Robertson and Elizabeth S in the first place but the writing is too unclear to be able to make out whether it is Saint, Sanit, or even, at a push and with a vivid imagination, Smith.
Given that Christian was born in 1784, I think it is unlikely that her parents would have been alive when registration began in 1855 and if they were, I have certainly had no luck finding them. I have also had no success in finding any other offspring of James and Elizabeth whose death certificates may have been clearer to read than Christian's.
I think it is a case of searching for an OPR marriage record for James and Elizabeth. It must exist somewhere I guess.
Cheers,
Jen
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Hi gen
If you know which Parish they were married it's worth seeing if there is a Family History Society.
The alternative is to have a look on IGI and if the record was extracted you can order the film via your neasest LDA FHC then you can go and have a look. If the record is submitted has to be treated with caution because it's not a direct copy where an extraction is.
Cheers
Ann
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I did find the date of birth or baptism for Christian Robertson in Cruden, Aberdeen, which is July 31, 1784. Unfortunately the mother's name is not noted, father being James Robertson. Film # 993178 I was really hoping the mother's name would be on it - sorry.
I found this info on www.scotsfind.org as my ancestors on my mother's side have the name Robertson and I happened to have it in my Favourites. If you look at the website, scroll down the menu on the left hand side until you see Robertson Geneology - Births & Baptisms.
Torrygirl
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Hi,
Thanks for this link. I have found a few of my Robertson family on the lists but nothing as yet to solve the mystery of Christian's mother. But I have sent a query direct to the person running the list so maybe something will come of it yet.
Regards,
Jen
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Hi Jen
I have a Barbara Robertson who was bap 19 Jun 1782 in Cruden, to James Robertson and Janet Daniel. I got this from her death certificate. She died Sept 1860 at Blakesmuir, Cruden.
I keep thinking there could be a connection but there is no way to be sure.
Some thoughts though:
Episcopalian OPRs for Cruden Parish exist. The Aberdeen and North-east Scotland Family History Society has a copy as does Cruden Library. I don't know whether they would do a look-up for you as the records are not indexed. I found some of 'mine' in there tho' I didn't think they were Episcopalian, particularly.
On freecen there is a Christian Daniel at Blackhills in 1851, aged 77 but her husband is William Daniel and she says she was born in Peterhead.
The ANESFHS hasn't got Cruden churchyard on their monumental inscription list yet. I did look at Slains, which is very near, but no luck.
You are right that Saint would be an unusual surname in Cruden at the time. There were some around the 1850's. It couldn't have been Daniels, could it? You know how old cursive script could be very swirly and I wonder if the D with a heavy downstroke and the loop to the left before going up to the right could look like an S? :) Just hoping your Christian is related to my Barbara!
Trish
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Hi,
I can't tell you how much I should like to find that the name was something other than what it appears to be. Try as I might, I keep coming back to Sanith, which I then assume to be a mis-spelling of something else. The S at the beginning of the name is pretty much identical to that on "Senile Decay", the MS ( maiden surname) right next to the name and to the word "Single" on the entry above in the online record. I have tried to make the word say Daniel but it is nothing like the D of Daniel, her married name, in the first column. Also the second from last letter is definitely t, the cross bar also going over the last letter, which looks like h to me.
The other problem is that marriages to James Robertson at around the right time to be Christian's mother are to Mary Findley and Janet Daniel, whereas my woman was apparently an Elizabeth.
I have been round the churchyard outside Cruden and have found a few of my ancestors in there but I think it may be marginally too new to have James Robertson and whoever his wife was, in it.
Much as I love my Scottish ancestry, there are times when I wish registration had begun at the same time as in England. With the Scots method of naming parents, that would have solved a geat many more problem ancestors for me!
Here is silly thing which I have just considered. I don't have the full death certificate for Christian, just the image in the register, which I downloaded from Scotland's People. If I stop being such a tight fisted Yorkshire/Scot and sent for the actual certificate, this whole problem could sort itself in seconds. It is entirely possible that a different person will have written that and even if they didn't it may be clearer.
Why didn't I think of that earlier?
Watch this space!
Jen
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Cancel that thought - I have just had confirmation of what I suspected was the case, which is that a certifcate is simply a copy of the online image, so would offer nothing new.
It was a good thought whilst it lasted.
Jen
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Hi Jen
Yes, I know, you start going round in circles, don't you, when you are stuck.
In my post I meant to say re. the 1851 census return 'and she was married to William but she says she was born in Peterhead'.
This would fit with Ann's post re the Peterhead marriage and therefore Peterhead being Christian's parish. However, I note that there is a big gap in the Peterhead OPRs of 32 years of marriage records, from 1764 to 1796, so no sign of James & Margaret's marriage.
There is one birth to a James Robertson in Peterhead: Margarita Anne Robertson Jul 1799. A little sister? Margarita! A bit exotic for Peterhead, but if mum's name was Margaret....
Now, if you could find Margarita's Death Cert...
Trish
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Jen,
Could you post the relevant section of the death certificate here so we can all try?
However, if it's just a matter of the word being so faint as to be illegible, your best bet is to submit a Contact Form to SP. In my experience, they will promptly post out a beautifully legible paper copy at no cost to you.
JAP
Added later. PS: Christian is listed as 65 (rounded down to nearest five) in 1841, and 77 in 1851. This suggests a birthdate of 1774. As mentioned above, her birthplace is listed in 1851 as Peterhead (William's is listed as Cruden). What does the 1861 census give as her age and birthplace, and what is her age on the death cert.
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Hi,
I have tried to post a section of the death entry but the format is wrong for this site so I shall have to try to do something about that.
I am now thinking that I have the wrong birth record for Christian and that she was in fact born in 1774 and not 1784, as I have in my records.
She was said to be ninety-two when she died in 1866.
In 1861 she was eighty-seven and that with all other census entries gives 1774 the more likely date.
I have been tidying up my incredibly messy files and found what I thought was an exciting hand-written note, which I made on a long past visit to ANESFHS, about an Alexander SANITH, living in Uppermill, Cruden in 1841. So I have just been onto Scotland's People and checked that census, to find that he was actually Alexander SMITH, 60, a miller, with wife and family. The writing on this entry is almost identical to that on Christian's death certificate and the Smith bit really does look like Sanith! It's a very ornate 'm' with three loops to it, the first of which curls under and looks like an 'a'.
He is still there in 1851, age 73, born in Logie Buchan and most definitely Smith.
So I am now looking for possible Smiths in either Cruden or Logie Buchan to see if there is an Elizabeth who might be the wife of James Robertson and mother of Christian.
Wish me luck.
Thanks for all your help - I'd be more than grateful for any more input on this, especially if I am doomed to have yet another Smith line in my family.
Jen
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Hi Jen, it's Sam researching Daniel!
I have Christian Daniel's death certificate and under magnification on the Scotland's People website, the maiden name looks like a definite Smith to me. But that is as far as I have got.
Keep digging
Sam
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Hello Sam,
Are you the same Sam ( from Peterhead but living down south now) as I was in touch with some time ago? If so, how nice to hear from you again and if not, welcome to Rootschat anyway. :)
I haven't done anything on this line for ages but had pretty much come to the conclusion that Smith was the most obvious answer.
Have you gone much further with the Daniel line?
Jen
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The same and just renewing my studies that have lapsed for some time. Peterhead has an excellent FHS centre in Broad St (see www.fhsb.org.uk) with also MIs on CD for Peterhead (but not Cruden/Slains/Blackhill). I am still a tad uncertain as to where Blackhills actually is but now believe it to be very near to Longhaven on the opposite side of the road (on the Phd to Aberdeen road about 5 miles south of Boddam try http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&q=L%3Aonghaven&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl)
Nice to talk again
Sam
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See also attachment
Regards Sam
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I agree with your idea of where Blackhills was. We were up in that part of Scotland for a few days last year and I came to very much the same conclusion.
The death/burial entry is interesting because it doesn't look so much like Blackhills as Slackhills. That first letter really doesn't look like a B to me. What do you think?
Jen
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It looks like Shackhill!
Sam
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Or even Thackhill.
But surely we know that they actually lived at Blackhills so have to assume it is an error by whoever did the writing. Unless, of course, there is another place.
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Did anyone manage to collect any information on the Alexander Smith who was a miller? It's just that my family came from around Cruden. My great great grandfather was Alexander Bruce Smith b. 1830 who was supposedly born in Turriff, as was his older brother George Rennie Smith. Their parents were Alexander B. Smith (Snr) (I presume the B. stood for Bruce) and Mary Ann Simpson. The parents were married in Cruden in 1828. Mary Ann was born in Cruden. I believe our Alexander (Snr) came from Cruden/Slains as well. Alexander (Snr) would have been born in 1806 and was a miller to. Just wondering if you had any information about Alexander Smith who was around 60 in the 1841 census. I am trying to find who A.B. Smith Snrs father was and would appreciate any information I can get. I also willingly share.