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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Gillg on Monday 04 June 07 08:19 BST (UK)
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Is there a kind soul out there who is able to visit Rochdale Cemetery and find my gt-gt-grandparents' grave for me? Unfortunately I live too far away to do this myself.
I have the grave number and reference and the names of the people in it from the records, but would love to have a photo. It's a big ask, I know, but I have noticed that helpful Rootschatters occasionally offer to do this service.
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I can have a look for you if you send me the details
Tony
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Tony
Thank you so much. It's very generous of you.
There are actually two graves, and I just hope the headstones will be legible.
Starting with the largest, a vault 12 ft x 12 ft, for the Adamson family, including
George Adamson, died 1859
Ann Adamson, his wife, died 1879
Robert Adamson, his son, died 1887
Janet Bell Miller, his daughter, died 1884 and several of her infant children
and various other Adamsons, the last being Gertrude in 1947
Because this is a double plot there are two grave numbers 9949 & 10126, Square K, Plot 11. (The Square is almost definitely a rather curly letter K, otherwise I suppose it could be an H, but I don't think so.)
Not very far away in grave number 6238, Square E Plot 5 is the Hurst family
John Hurst, died 1907
Elizabeth, his first wife, died 1860
Sarah Ann, his second wife, died 1902
Thomas, his father,died 1862
Betty, his mother, died 1878
and several infants
Although their names are not on the grave record, I'm rather hoping that my grandfather and John's son George Thomas Hurst, died 1922, and his wife Sarah Hannah, died 1915, and 7 year old daughter Florence May, died 1907, may also be in this grave. George Thomas's death notice says that he was buried in Rochdale Cemetery, but Rochdale Local Studies haven't been able to find a separate grave record for him.
The Cemetery emailed me a plan which I could forward to you, if you would like to send me a PM with your email address. Both Squares are on the left near the main gates, but the office there would probably point out where they are.
If you are able to photograph one or both of these graves, I would be really grateful.
Best wishes,
Gill
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I hope the inscriptions are legible. This chap (David Ollerton)
http://www.interment.net/data/eng/lancashire/rochdale/rochdale.htm
seems to have recorded most of the inscriptions in Rochdale cem and the only Hursts he lists are these:
Hurst, Arnold, d. 14 Jan 1900, age: 4yr, s/o John Hurst and Jane
Hurst, Benjamin, d. 8 Mar 1942, age: 76yr
Hurst, Charles, b. 15 Apr 1912, d. 6 Oct 1990
Hurst, May, b. 24 May 1920, d. 13 May 1987
The Adamsons:
Adamson, Ann, b. 10 Mar 1808, d. 21 Feb 1879, w/of George
Adamson, Beatrice, d. 5 Apr 1887, age 2 and a half yrs, d/of George Turley & Emma
Adamson, Bertha Alice, d. in infancy, d/of John & Elizabeth
Adamson, Eleanor, d. in infancy, d/of John & Elizabeth
Adamson, Elizabeth, d. 15 Sep 1889, age 66y, w/of John
Adamson, George Bell, d. 9 May 1886, age 35y, youngest s/of George & Ann
Adamson, George Turley, d. 5 Nov 1901, age 48y, s/of Robert
Adamson, George, b. 30 Sep 1805, d. 15 Aug 1859, h/of Ann
Adamson, Gertrude Alice, d. in infancy, d/of John & Elizabeth
Adamson, Gertrude, b. 31 Aug 1870, d. 1 Aug 1947, G/dau of Robert Adamson
Adamson, Henrietta, b. 31 Jan 1865, d. 3 Mar 1929
Adamson, Hilda Florence, d. 9 Dec 1887, age 1y 10 Mnths
Adamson, James Edward, d. 14 Jan 1916, age 52y, Youngest, s/of Robert
Adamson, James, d. 8 Dec 1912, age: 3da, s/o Will & Sarah Ellen
Adamson, John, d. 12 Feb 1884, age 58y, h/of Elizabeth
Adamson, John, d. 18 Feb 1904, age 8 Mnths, d/of Robert & Lizzie
Adamson, John, d. 26 Feb 1929, Etna, age 80y, s/of George
Adamson, Martha, d. 31 Aug 1868, age: 4yrs 5mo
Adamson, Robert, Syme, d. 20 Oct 1867, age: 39yr
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Hi Gill,
Names, dates, grave numbers, squares and plot numbers - what could be easier? Wrong :( :(
I thought I do a reccie tonight on the way home in some beautiful sunshine, locate the graves and return with the camera tomorrow for the photos.
Starting with the easiest a 12’ by 12’ vault should be obvious. I searched Square K twice to no avail , so puzzled set off for Square E. As I crossed the road from K to E I happened to spot the Adamson memorial on that rectangular piece of land shown on the map you sent, dividing the roadway. A quick check of names showed it was the right monument. However it is a about 3 feet square and 8 feet tall, set within another 9 monuments occupying the space taken up by a large family saloon. Not sure how you can fit 12 x 12 vault into that. ???
Names are as you said, although Robert Adamson (son) is listed as dying in 1886 not 1887 as you said. There are 11 inscriptions in total, all perfectly legible.
Using Neal's already typed info i've deleted those not applicable and added some others that were missing.
Adamson, Ann, b. 10 Mar 1808, d. 21 Feb 1879, w/of George
Adamson, Beatrice, d. 5 Apr 1887, age 2 and a half yrs, d/of George Turley & Emma
Adamson, George Bell, d. 9 May 1886, age 35y, youngest s/of George & Ann
Adamson, George Turley, d. 5 Nov 1901, age 48y, s/of Robert
Adamson, George, b. 30 Sep 1805, d. 15 Aug 1859, h/of Ann
Adamson, Gertrude, b. 31 Aug 1870, d. 1 Aug 1947, G/dau of Robert Adamson
Adamson, Henrietta, b. 31 Jan 1865, d. 3 Mar 1929
Adamson, James Edward, d. 14 Jan 1916, age 52y, Youngest, s/of Robert
Janet Bell wife of George Miller, d of Gerge & Anne 15/6/84 age 48
Adamson, Robert, son of George died 1/31886
Edith Helen Pacey (Sissie), Stony Stratford, Bucks, g/child of above 6/8/84 3 years.
“Verily there is a reward for the righteous” is the inscription. Near the top of the monument there are thistles on the front and back and roses on the sides. Reference to Adamson Scottish roots? And marriage to Englishwoman?
I then set off for Square E with no luck whatsoever. Given the experience with K I packed it up after one quick pass and decided to come back when the office is open. I did spot a Hurst monument when driving out but it wasn’t on your list. Interestingly it’s not on the list helpfully provided by NealBuckley so it could be that the link he provided is not 100% complete - so there’s some hope yet. But well found Neal.
Hopefully more tomorrow.
Best wishes
Tony
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Hi Tony
Sorry the Adamson memorial wasn't as easy to spot as we thought it would be, but well done indeed for finding it. The Adamsons were quite a wealthy family of tea dealers, hence the fancy grave, and yes, George was the Scot from just over the border near Gretna, and Ann his wife the English Rose. My mistake about the year of death of Robert. 1886 is correct, it's just that the copy of the grave record was photocopied in black/white reverse, and the lines in the register don't show up, so it's difficult to see whether the year is written above or below the date. Robert's burial is recorded as March 5th, so rather a long time after his death on the headstone as 31 Jan!
Verily, I do think the Adamsons were a bit presumptuous with their Bible quotation, but do know that they were "chapel bodies". George & Ann's daughter, my gt-grandmother Sarah Ann married John Hurst at Milton Congregational Church.
I'm very intrigued by the fact that George's son John Adamson died in Etna in 1929 aged 80, and I'm assuming he was buried out there, as he's not on the burial record, nor on the GRO. There was a major eruption of Mount Etna in November 1928, which wiped out a whole village. Was his death connected with this eruption in some way? But what on earth was an 80 year old doing out there? :o
It's interesting that Janet Bell Miller's children aren't listed in full on the memorial. She had 3 sets of twins, from which only one child survived. They are, however, listed on the grave record.
Hi Neal
Thanks very much for sending the Interment.net lists. Dave Ollerton does a fantastic job, and I've found his lists very useful for various cemeteries connected with relatives. The Hursts you list are not from my direct family, however, and since my gt-grandfather John was an only child, I can't place that family at the moment.
Again, thank you so much, both of you. Tony, best of luck with the Hursts (not so well off as the Adamsons, but also fervent Nonconformists). I'm really looking forward to seeing your photos, so hope the sun keeps shining up there in Rochdale.
Regards,
Gill
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Forget all that ETNA business! I've just consulted a website hosted by another descendant of George Adamson and discovered that John Adamson died in 1929 in GRETNA !!! ::) This is where the family came from originally. What a laugh! It just shows how easy it is to speculate and what a vivid imagination I have.
Gill :-[
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Forget all that ETNA business! I've just consulted a website hosted by another descendant of George Adamson and discovered that John Adamson died in 1929 in GRETNA !!! ::) This is where the family came from originally. What a laugh! It just shows how easy it is to speculate and what a vivid imagination I have.
Gill :-[
Such is the effect of years of weathering - or perhaps Mr Ollerton likes to take a drink (no offense if he's reading :o )
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Hi Gill,
I had a successful :D ;D sunny visit with your rellies this morning but am now snowed under for the rest of the afternoon/early evening so will get back to you later
;D
Tony
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No rush, Tony, they're not going anywhere. ;)
Gill
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Hi Gill,
Had a great day but it might give you some headaches ;) Beautiful blue sky day and knowing my commitments for the day thought i'd go on the way to work rather than later. Here's the first picture of the Adamson plot centre monument, second row. I've downsized to suit RC otherwise i'll be loading up 170mb of pics :o :o Enough to give the moderator the wobbles ;D I'll post all originals to your e-mail. Also i tend to get timed out when trying to do this sort of thing and lose hours of effort so the story comes in 3 parts.
Tony
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Second lot - The Hursts :o
Before searching for something that may be missing i went to the office and asked for location of burial 6238. no problem was the happy reply just give me a minute. well after 15 mins of pulling ledgers Andrea came back puzzled and said she had better come with me to sort this out. she had pulled out 15 plots located in and around a cenrtal vault with multiple memorials above :o we found the plots (adjacent to square E) and there was a veritable tribal burial ground of Butterworth, Tweedales, Hursts and interstingly Peyce, possibly Paycey on the adamson memorial, or and yes the odd Adamson together with Ashworth, Cleggs and Warbutons. Almost impossible to work out how they all connect but they do over a common vault with different memorials. Butterworth is the patriarch reburied from Parish church and is tall memorial in center of first pic, second row. To his left is flat memorial to Butterworth/tweedales. To his right is plot of Butterworths no memorial. And front row left is 6238 memorial John Hurst and Co but listed in records as Butterworth. i hope you are following all this as i'll be asking questions later ;)
Tony ;D
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Ooops did i say 170mb :o I meant 17mb, but still too much for this site. The image quality of the originals and these i've posted are just to give you and other readers a flovour :)
So the hat-trick for the day is the George Thomas Hurst, wife Sarah Hannah and daughter Florence. Only a partial vicory i'm afraid :-\ In front of Butterworth the patriarch, and to the right of John Hurst is a smaller memorial to Sarah and Florence and then maddeningly the memorial just like George Thomas has slipped into the ground :o mIt's like getting to the last pages of a detective story to find someone has ripped them out ::) I feel sure his name will be there ,last on the list but sadly sunken from view. It looks a complete memorial, others that have broken nearby have been laid flat so i'm guessing this is complete.
I've thoroughly enjoyed the adventure so far and its been a pleasure to spend some time with your "Tribe" ;D ;D ;D
I'll post full set to your e-mail and put location on the plan you sent.
Tony
8)
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Tony
What can I say? I'm overwhelmed by the time and effort you have put into finding and photographing the graves of totally unknown people. This is a truly fantastic result.
It's interesting to see the grand Adamson monument on its little island there and to read about the complicated vault structure, then to see the simpler, humbler Hurst headstones. I'm really delighted you have found the grave of my grandfather George Thomas Hurst, wife Sarah Hannah and young daughter Florence. It may just be coincidence that the Hursts are buried near the Butterworths, but gt-gt-grandmother Betty Hurst's maiden name was also Butterworth.
I will email you privately, but just felt that you deserved a very public thank you for helping a Rochdalian far from home to get a little closer to her ancestors.
Best regards
Gill ;D ;D ;D
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Well done Tony, it's great to see that people on rootchat will go out of the way to help others?
Migky ;)
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Kia Ora
Tony, Gill alerted me to your wanderings and I know how thrilled she is!
Feel I must mention in case someone else comes upon the site that both Butterworth and Warburtons currently reside in New Zealand and membersof both families I know personally!
So Gill it's now time to track your Kiwi connections! No 8 fencing wire available!
Great job Tony - I have been very grateful to a Rootschatter who found 2 of my rellies killed during the blitz in Teignmouth and can understand Gill's appreciation.
Regards
Marlene
New Zealand
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Hi Marlene,
Nice to see you on the Lancs page. Butterworth is a very common Rochdale name, but as a Kiwi you won't know this, so I'll forgive you for suggesting that I look into their NZ descendants. There was even an area of Rochdale called Butterworth, and there are oodles of them! I hadn't really gone any further than gt-gt-gran Betty B, though there was a Benjamin Butterworth (cousin) in the second carriage in gt-grandfather John's rather grand funeral procession. However, the juxtaposition of Hurst and Butterworth graves is rather tantalising, so if the Butterworths you know out there have any family history details, I'll see what I can find.
Warburton is a good old Lancs name, too. We even have a bread manufacturer of that name, who has gone national, but uses the Lancs connection to imply good old-fashioned baking standards.
Cheers,
Gill ;)
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Hi Gill,
Thanks for the public and private thanks :) however in an interesting twist the inscription on your Adamson memorial has proved prophetical ;)
“Verily there is a reward for the righteous”
Well i have my reward today for my 'righteous' act. I've had an e-mail from a priest in Ireland giving the probable place of my primary targets burial ;D I've been searching for his resting place to no avail for 3 years and now i'm tantalisingly close to Patrick. I've been looking for his burial in London but now he appears to be in Surrey and i have a friend who lives next to the small RC cemetery who has found people for me there before.
You can see Patrick at
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,235884.0.html
Gill your search isn't over yet, i've yet to transcribe the 15 plots within the family vault but i'm convinced they are all your rellies, otherwise the Hursts are going to be cuckoos in somebody elses nest.
Marlene, we might make a Kiwi of Gill yet.
Best wishes
Tony
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Kia Ora Tony!
Gill & I are actually trying to make connections through our common ancestors' name of
Fair(e)y - sounds like they are sitting on your shoulder just now! ::)
I'm sitting up at this hour waiting for Team NZ to make it 5 zip in the Louis Vuitton Sailing Cup!
Next task is to bring the America's Cup back home :)!
Then the earth will move!
Marlene
In the Shakey Isles
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Hi Gill,
These are the fifteen plots that show as a 'single family' vault. I've attemted to set them out as they relate to each other 6238 and 6316 are in red. 6238 is definitely recorded as Butterworth even though John Hurst & Co are in there. 6316 is Florence & Co. The phot i sent of the group would have been taken from the left side of the page.
6104 6103 6102
Clegg Ashworth Butterworth
6160 6159 6158
Warburton Pryor ?
6238 6237 6236
Butterworth Tweedale Butterworth
6316 6315 6314
Hurst Butterworth Wittom?
6372 6371 6370
Aitken Butterworth Crabtree
6315 is the Butterworth patriarch.
Can you post Betty's details so i can try and see who she might be related to.
Cheers
Tony
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Tony
I'm glad you got your well deserved reward, though I see you are going to set me a lot of homework with those Hursts, Butterworths and Warburtons. ::) I did recently have contact with a Rochdale Butterworth descendant, who sent me a copy of his ancestor's will, but we couldn't find a connection. Maybe some of the names on those stones will match those in the will.
I do hope your search for Patrick's resting place is successful soon. In the mean time let me recommend that everyone checks out your most interesting website, and that those near Manchester book a guided tour with you. What a lovely place the monastery appears to be, and what hard work everyone has put into restoring it.
Best wishes,
Gill
Oops, just seen your next message, so will deal with that straight away.
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Hi Tony
I can see you are not going to let me off the Butterworth/Tweedale/Warburton (hm, could just fancy a slice or two of Warburton's Milk Roll ;D) saga, though don't know how much I'm going to be able to find out. There are so many of them. Interestingly from the Lancs Online Parish Clerk I see that a Simeon Hurst married a Mary Butterworth in Rochdale on 11.01.1773, witness Richard Hurst Or is that a red herring? ???
I don't really know much about Betty B either. She married Thomas Hurst at St Chad's 19.04.1829 and came from Hamer, and of course we know she outlived him, dying at the age of 73 in July 1878, so she must have been born c1805. The witnesses at the wedding were ?Hollows? and D Nield, and I have been informed that Mr Nield was a frequent marriage witness, so probably a clerk. Don't know about the other chap, whose name is rather difficult to read.
The IGI has two extracted records of baptisms for BBs, Firstly Betty dau of Simeon & Alice, b 10.03.05, bap 16.04.05 Spotland or Whitworth, then Elizabeth dau of Edmund & Ann, bap St Chad's 15.04.05.
That's all I know at present, but will try to follow it up later. Must go and make a meal now.
Best regards,
Gill
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A quick sweep on Lancs BMD for Rochdale marriages between Butterworths and Hursts from 1837 to 1900 has thrown up 9! What's going to make things even more difficult to entangle all these potential relatives is that there are rather a lot of Butterworths who married Butterworths. ::)
In addition there are half a dozen Tweedale-Butterworth marriages for the same period, and just one Hurst-Tweedale.
Then there are 4 Warburton-Butterworths and 3 Warburton-Tweedales, but no Warburton-Hursts.
I can see this is going to be an interesting exercise, which will take much longer than the coffee break I'm currently indulging in. ;D
Gill
Love the name Tweedale. It takes me right back to my childhood. Isn't there a Tweedale Street in Rochdale?
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;DYou'll need something stronger than coffee old girl! ::)
A Fairy Cuzzie!
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Hi Gill
Yes, this is going to get very interesting :)
I had a slightly disappointing trip to Rochdale this morning :( If your Hurst’s are in a grave listed as Butterworth and that grave is in a Butterworth vault then there must be some sort of link.
There are 2 options. The first burial is Elizabeth in 1860– so she might be a Butterworth, hence giving her the right to a burial there. Alternatively as Thomas’ son’s wife she has the right to be there because Thomas was descended from Betty B. Betty B is possibly descended from either Simeon B & Alice or Edmund B & Ann.
I realise there are a lot of assumptions being made here ??? ::) Also Benjamin B was at John’s funeral.
So I thought I’d take a look this morning for Simeon B & Alice or Edmund B & Ann, or Benjamin B. No luck I’m afraid as the Butterworth plots I paid little attention to the other night consist of the memorial you’ve already got and one other which also drew a blank on the names above. :( There are 2 Butterworth plots with no markers but for which we have grave numbers. Is there a way of finding out who’s in there without paying for it? Local studies etc.?
For the record and interest this is the remaining B monument
Alfred B of Ashworth St 11/11/1876 35y
Elizabeth wife of Alfred 14/12/1907 Washington U.S.A :o :o 67y
Mary B of Spotland Rd his sister 24/7/187? In her ?? year
Thomas B son of Alfred ? 1898 aged 30
Mary Ellen wife of Thomas 14/11/28 60y
John Taylor 21/5/1919 47y (How did a Taylor get in here :) )
Also lots of Wardleworth, Wardleworth Brook and Wardleworth Cottage addresses on the other monuments.
Well that’s it for now, sorry to have started this hare running, well actually i'm not its fun ;D
Take Marlene's advice and put something in that coffee :) Tweedale St is still there
Tony
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On my lunch break now...
Marlene,
What are you doing out of bed at this late (NZ) hour? Watching the sailing again? ;D
Tony,
Elizabeth, buried 1860, was born Blackwell, so that just leaves the tenuous relationship with her mother-in-law Betty. I'll try and find the other names you mentioned, also follow up Betty's family, if I can.
The grave records I had were supplied by Rochdale Local Studies for £4 (4 sheets, research and postage included). They are always good value. If I had applied directly to the cemetery with nothing but the names and approx dates, I believe it would have cost me £23 minimum! I'm sure Local Studies would be able to look up grave records if we had the grave numbers. I think they have filmed copies of the registers.
I had a nice response from the cemetery office when I emailed them to thank Gwen for the map and Andrea for her dogged persistence. They told me what pleasure it gave them to be able to help people find graves. :) Oh, how I miss those friendly Northerners!
Lunch break over and no strong liquor imbibed so far...
Regards,
Gill ;)
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Totally off topic! Now catching up on beauty sleep ??? but just have to tell you - Emirates/ Team NZ won the Louis Vuitton Cup (5 - zip!!) & I now have 2 weeks to catch some sleep before we challenge for the America's Cup! Swiss team, but led by Kiwis!
:) ;D ::)
And then there's the RUGBY World Cup & the Netball World Cup before Santa comes!
Wouldn't it be great for 4 million people & 40 million sheep to hold all 3?
Can't wait!
Marlene
Shakey Isles
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Hate to tell you this Marlene but you have been day dreaming during your long nights up! NZ winning the Rugby World Cup! :o Never mind Shakey Isles you are definitely on shakey ground there :) To keep this on topic, you have as much chance of doing that as Gill has of finding Elvis Presley in her family plot ;) The only reasons Kiwis are so good at sailing is to flee the land of the long white clouds and return to humanity :) ;) :D ;D
I'm not favouring England, the land of my birth, fancy the chances of a wildcard by Ireland, my bloodline, but despite NZ ranked 1st, my feel is for South Africa. NZ v SA is the mouthwatering final. Would love to hear your apology ;) ;D and we may have to switch this to the totally off topic bit and start a whole new debate. So wake up get a life and get used to being second best - now thats bound to start a Kiwi assault! :) How come you guys can't stand losing ;D
Very best wishes
Tony
p.s Rochdalian interests, i'll post tomorrow re local studies enquiries about the plot.
Nite, nite Marlene and would enjoy your feeble rebuttal ;)
watch this space folks for an all assault :)
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Every time I watch Jonny Wilkinson I figure he should be on stage - "so break a leg" fits very well.
Just because the Irish woke up & won A cricket match doesn't mean they can play rugby !!
On board Team NZ is a fellow with a Fairy genes wife. He is an Olympic Gold medallist, has a degree, an honour from Betty Windsor and is about to win the America's Cup! He also played rugby! Firmly rooted in Aotearoa.
I should imagine Elvis "has left the building' or in this case has "lost the plot!" so I agree Gill has little chance of finding him!
Another game with a C French team tonight- ho hum! Bet the guys have difficulty raising enthusiasm! But have a look - the Capital City wil have an all night party! Just like they do for the 7s!! NB- we won that World Cup last week - did I forget to mention it????
Arohanui
Marlene
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Hi Marlene,
Had to Google some of the words you use like Arohanui, and loved this interpretation. There's a similar word in South Africa -Obuntu - which i learnt about 2 years ago when i was there (in time to see SA thrash NZ in the tri nations :) ) I now feel guilty about petty rugby rivalry. Winning isnt everything -Its the only thing ;D
Quote for the day
Arohanui is a Maori word which is a little difficult to define. Literally, it means 'big love'. In its real sense, it is not the small love which is confined to immediate friends and family, but is abundant enough to embrace all life. The world has never needed healing more than it does at present. But we look out at it, and the problems seem too many, too complex, too great. We are left saying despairingly - 'What can we do? We can't change anything - we don't have the power.' And it is true, isolated we are the little people.
But together, united, we can change many things, and return love and hope to the world. Out there - there are millions of people - people just like me, like you - who are scared, angry, hopeless, worried - but still retain the courage to hope and smile. All races, all ages, all religions, all culture, all countries. But increasingly we have become an anonymous body of people which takes away the fact of our humanity, our individuality.
Sometimes, we lose hope, because we cannot see things happen straightaway. We feel that there is no way in which we can bring about change. But every word, every action is like a seed. We may think that it falls to the ground and lies there, forgotten.. But like seeds, these words and actions will spring into growth in the heart of another, and flower and bear fruit. And from that fruit will come another seed, and another plant.
End quote
Arohanui
Tony
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Very fitting don't you think? Shows I could even love Jonny - at a pinch!
You can use it if you like!!
Now get back to sorting out Gill's Butterworth/Hurst/ Warbuton rellies or I'll be deep in Taranaki you-know- what!.
AND if anyone has "lost" any of the above say 1855 -1870 - please contact me with forenames! There's a heap of them who wisely came to Aotearoa & descendants probably play rugby for Otago or go curling!
Cheers
Marlene
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Kia Ora Marlene,
Oh dear i've gone all 'antipodean' i must have a criminal background ;D
and
A very good morning to you Gill, thats better - much more civilised :)
Back on topic, i've had a word with Rochdale local studies and asked if i have grave numbers can i see who's there? The answer was i need the 'grant' number which i have to get from Rochdale Cem. I am a bit limited for time at the moment so i am going to put it on the back burner for a while, if thats OK. If not please SHOUT and i'll get back on the case. Also i think this will only be a sideways look at what is going on in that plot and that the Butterworth link is back there with Betty B. I have managed to find her photo on the net.
Very best wishes to all, and i will sort out who's in that plot as soon as i can
Tony
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But to return to those Hursts, Butterworths, etc, there has been a strange twist in the tale. Rochdale Local Studies emailed me yesterday to say that they had at last found the grave record for George Thomas Hurst etc, which was rather faint and difficult to read. They also told me that another person :o had been buried in that grave "with Permission" (they weren't sure what that indicated). What they didn't tell me was whether this person had a name and if so, whether they could read it.
It could be a child. Remember I mentioned GTH's 3 stillborn brothers who were tucked in with other unknown persons, but unless a stranger was put in with the family's permission when the grave was opened for one of the three burials, I can only think that this might have been the infant daughter of my mother's older sister (so GHT's granddaughter). She was born in December 1931, but lived only for a few weeks, so maybe there's a legible date. If it was post GTH's death in 1922, then the only people who could give permission would have been my mother and her sister. Unless one of those Butterworths sneaked in, of course ;D
Anyway, I shall have to wait for the photocopy to arrive and see what I can decipher.
Now no more sports bickering, you two, and a bit more of the Arohanui ;D
More when I see the record. And don't worry, Tony. The grant number will be on it, as well as all Square, Plot and Grave Number, which we now know, thanks to your efforts.
Gill in sunny Gloucester 8)
What a cutie our Betty is!
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Hi Gill,
Great news, and a relief. Was feeling a bit guilty about putting the search on hold but with the grant number which i believe will belong to the whole vault i might be able to track down the rest quickly. I was faced with a scattergun approach of Butterworths etc from Wardleworth of the right age to hopefully stumble across the grave numbers i've got.
Should also be careful what we wish for! Could it really be Elvis in there ;D
Have a wonderful sunny day, looks like ours is over now as the clouds pile up over Ashworth Moor.
Best wishes and Arohanui
Tony
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While you're both full of Arohanui ;) you might like to know the All Blacks had a reasonable practice run against the French tonight 61-10 - without our goal kicker!
I'm :-[ to report the highest score ever against the Froggies , by any nation!
:)
Marlene
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Pride, fall etc 8)
Have a great weekend you two
Obuntu
Tony
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Incidentally, Tony, the Grant Numbers for the other two were as follows:
Elizabeth, Herbert, Thomas, Arthur, Robert, Betty (nee Butterworth), Sarah Ann and John Hurst. Grave purchased by John Hurst, woolsorter, of Kenion Street, 26th May 1860 for £3.10 - Grant No. 1596.
All those Adamsons. Grave purchased by Robert Adamson, grocer, of East Street. 15th August 1859 for 12 guineas - Grant No. 1393.
Here's hoping we can read some at least of the other Hurst grave record.
In the mean time, I've been looking at Genes Reunited and am appalled at the number of Betty and Benjamin Butterworths from Rochdale on there ::)
Don't know the significance of the term "Grant".
Regards,
Gill
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Update on the Hurst-Blackwell connection from a Blackwell researcher.
Not only did John Hurst marry Elizabeth Blackwell, but his cousin Albert Hurst married Elizabeth's niece. :o Albert's father was Benjamin 1815, younger brother of John's father Thomas 1803 (are you with me so far?). I've since found Benjamin's christening in an extracted record on the IGI, same church, same parents as my Thomas. Don't want to add to the confusion, but Benjamin Hurst lived in the Butterworth district of Rochdale (remember, Neal found a Benjamin Hurst on Interment.com, but it doesn't seem to be the right one from his age).
There are also Butterworths in the Blackwell family somewhere......and Cleggs. Didn't you find a Clegg grave on the
Butterworth/Hurst/Tweedale/Warburton site, Tony? ;D
Gill
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Is all this legal :o
Yes you have a Clegg in the family plot but no headstone as i recall, i'll check the photos when i'm home.
Best wishes
Tony
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Just checking my prayerbook for the bit that says "Thou shalt not marry thy wife's sister......", but I think, hope so ???
Gill
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Hi Gill,
Am attaching the sketch Andrea did of the relationship of the graves. Cleggs are bottom right.
On another but related topic what info will i get from Rochdale local studies armed with a name and grave number or am i better going to the Cem.
Best wishes
Tony
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Tony
Thank you for this. They really did their best for you at the cemetery office, didn't they? It's difficult to say which is the better route to find a grave. If you look at the cemetery website, they are supposed to charge you £23 to look up the graves for you, and I have heard from someone else, who was given one free go, as she wasn't aware of the charges, but was told she would have to pay £25 next time. I'm not sure if their search includes supplying copies of the records, but I should think so. Also I don't know if there is any difference in cost if you are calling personally at the office or writing to them.
Rochdale Local Studies, on the other hand, charged me £4 for finding, photocopying and posting 2 sets of grave records (2 pages each). And they do this usually within a couple of days. I suppose if you went in personally it could cost even less. I wrote to them with all the Hurst names, dates of birth and death and relationships, but in the case of the Adamsons, I only had the patriarch and his wife's details, and that didn't make much difference, as they still found the grave.
Obviously you charmed Andrea into finding the graves gratis ;) at least I hope so, as you haven't informed me of any costs. And quite apart from your personal magnetism, you did have the references already, so didn't need help on that score.
Sorry, I'm not sure which is the best way for you. I didn't have grave or grant numbers at first, but the grave was found through the family names and burial dates. I don't know whether their records are filed according to name, date, grant number or grave number, but they can probably be found any way, if they've been entered on computer as well as filmed.
Regards,
Gill :)
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I don't want to put a spanner in the works but aren't there rules ?
I'm sure have read somewhere that Y persons can be buried in a grave providing there is at least X years between burials or something similar???
Might that explain some of the burials?
Arohanui
Marlene
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Hi Marlene
Just searching around the net and have found this
Exclusive Right of Burial – Reserving a particular grave space for yourself or your family
4. Before any burial may take place in a grave, an ‘exclusive right of burial’ must be purchased from the Council. Additionally, for any burial or any other opening of the ground an Interment fee must be paid.
5. In order to reserve a specific grave (or pair of adjacent graves) for him/her self and members of his/her self family, an ‘exclusive right’ may be brought in advance whereupon a legally enforceable deed will be drawn up reserving the specified plot(s) for a first internment up to 75 years into the future. If the right has not been exercised by the end of the 75 year period and the grave remains vacant, the Council will be entitled to resell the exclusive right to someone else.
6. The owner of an unexpired ‘exclusive right of burial’ may not sell, will, convey, assign or transfer the right without the written permission of the Council being first obtained and paying the administrative and legal fees, but may use the grave space to bury members of his/her immediate family (e.g. spouse/partner, parent, brother, sister or child).
and
The Council may, with the agreement of the persons arranging in interment,
permit the re-use of a grave which is not a purchased grave or which is a grave in
respect of which the exclusive right of burial has expired notwithstanding the body to be
interred therein is not connected in any way with the previous interments.
These are from two different cemeteries, but of course they are current regulations, and may well have changed over the last hundred years or so. So there seems to be a 75 year lifespan for a grave (bit of a contradiction there ;D), but whether this means the first occupants have to be moved out before new ones take over, I don't know. Surely not - it would be a full-time occupation for the gravediggers, and what would they do with the older bodies? Start a charnel house??? Exhumations have a similar list of regulations.
Cheers,
Gill
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Hi Gill
Here's one of the sites I found which gives some explanation!
http://www.beckettstreetcemetery.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=14&Itemid=1
In the 1940s I have 2 sisters buried together and then the husband of one died in 1974 he was also buried there. I think the limit was 3 but there was 12/14 year gap necessary. I'll try to find the details!
Cheers
Marlene
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That's much better than my efforts, and explains quite a lot about the different types of graves, which is very useful.
Thanks, Marlene. I can always rely on you to come up with some good information. 8)
Gill
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Necessity m'dear! I had to find the difference, if any, between a pauper's grave and a common grave and that was the best I could find! ;D
Just had a major breakthrough with the Northants Tweltree lot! Back to the 1780s whew!
These Rootschatters are wonderful!
Spa time! Bed time!
Cheers
Marlene
-
hi Gill,
Found my man :D At long last, he's down in London, died 11th June, buried 15th June 1909. That's this week 98 years ago, opportune or coincidence ;D
I'll catch up with your ever so complicated inter marriages ??? when i get a chance. And thanks for info on what i might expect from Local Studies re other look up i responded to. Popping in there tomorrow if you have requests.
Tony
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Hi Marlene
Great news about your Northants breakthrough! Another very large sheet of paper to fill, then. ;D
I've had a huge number of emails from someone with connections to my gt-gt-grandfather's brother Benjamin Hurst, supplying me with census records and other information. Since I only learned of his existence last week, it's been amazing! :o
Hi Tony
I'm so pleased you have had success with your search for Patrick. It was the Fair(e)ys on your shoulder, you know. We bring good luck wherever we go. ;D But yet another coincidence with the dates!
Hope your trip to Local Studies is fruitful. I think I've missed the boat with requests from there, as I was out on a jolly last night, so have only just seen your message, but for the moment I think I have what I need, or will have when the third grave record arrives. Thanks for your offer, though. :D
Best regards to both of you,
Gill ;)
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Tony
The post has just arrived with the third grave record, and as I suspected the extra person in the grave is 5 week old Jean Lawson, granddaughter of George Thomas and Sarah Ann Hurst. She was the daughter of my mother's older sister, and was buried on 19 January 1932.
The Grant number for this grave is 11820, and the Grave Number is 6316, Square E, Plot 5. Does this help at all with the Butterworth/Hurst vault problem? The grave was purchased by George Thomas Hurst, Music Teacher of 15 East Street, Rochdale, on 25 Oct 1906 for £3.10s. 0d. It was 7 ft x 3 ft x 9 ft.
Regards,
Gill
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Hi Gill,
Had a great day but it might give you some headaches ;)
Tony
Prophetic words after my first visit :) just as you thought you were nearing the end you're right back at the beginning. I must confess i've struggled to keep up with all the new info you have coming in but it does start to confirm my instinct that all those plots up there are rellies of some sort.
Best wishes
Tony
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From the outside! ;D
Would it help to have one list of the names Gill knows in chronological order?
Perhaps interspersed with the question mark ones in italics?
I find it difficult to follow when you're constantly referring back to old postings! (Age?)
Bit of a pain to construct I admit but I do a chronological timeline for each of my main family groups adding wee extras such as
X turned 21
Y lost on 1851 census
Z widowed 1851-61
The timeline helps to keep me focussed on what I am missing, when the family might have gathered for a wedding or funeral or emigrated.
My family tree program doesn't give me this information and I'd love to have one that does just that!
From the outside it does look as if the families were either;
1. closely related
2. good friends
3. were buried around the same time (initially) and had the cash to purchase additional plots all together
4. wanted to give Gill another headache!
My great grandad bought 10 plots in Patea about 1898 and there are family burials there up to the 1950s. But then husbands & wives elected to buy their own plots, usually when the couple had children die in unnatural order - at least that's my reading of it!
Cheers
Marlene.
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Hi Marlene and Tony
Sorry about the information overload :-[
It's scheduled to pour with rain this pm, so I might try the timeline exercise Marlene mentioned, probably just listing the deaths, rather than other info about these people, for the purpose of this topic.
Thanks, both of you, for your continuing interest in my family. It really helps to have another approach to a problem.
Gill ;D
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Hi Gill
I'm sure you will find the exercise useful and if post it here it just might give others some ideas!
Incidentally I have just found the graves of another 2 sets of great grandparents (shows how little I knew!) and they're both here in Wanganui!
Off to visit tomorrow if it doesn't snow as predicted! (Don't suppose anyone will see my long johns!)
Your elegant friend
M
-
Brrrrr!
Happy hunting ;D
Gill
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For the benefit of those still hanging on in there but feeling rather confused with the information overload, here's a timeline, as Marlene suggested. Rochdale Cemetery was opened in 1855. My gt-gt-grandfathers were Thomas Hurst and George Adamson. Letters after names refer to relationship to patriarch.
Thomas Hurst George Adamson
1859 GEORGE 53
1860 Elizabeth (Blackwell) 34 dl
1861 Robert 1 gs
1862 THOMAS 59
1864 Agnes Ann Miller 5 wks gd
1866 Ada & Bertha Miller 1 wk gd
1869 Arthur 1 day gs George Miller 7 wks gs
1873 Robert 1 gs
1874 Gertrude 1 gd
1878 Betty (Butterworth) 73 w Bertha 5 mths gd
1879 Ann (Holden) 70 w
1880 Eleanor 8 mths gd
1884 Janet Bell Miller 48 d
1886 Robert 56 s
1887 Beatrice 2 gd
1901 George T. 48 s
1902 Sarah Ann (Adamson) 62 dl---------------d
1906 Florence Mary 7 ggd
1907 John 73 s Elizabeth 80 dl
1915 Sarah Hannah (Bolton) 45 gdl
1916 James E. 52 gs
1922 George Thomas 58 gs
1929 Henrietta 64 gd
John 81 br (buried Scotland
name on memorial)
1932 Jean Lawson 5 wks gggd
1947 Gertrude 76 gd
Grave no. 6136 Square E Plot 5 Grant no. 1596 Purchased by John Hurst, Woolsorter. Kenion St, 26 May 1860. 7 ft long, 3 ft broad, 12 ft deep.
Grave no. 6136 Square E Plot 5 Grant no.11820 Purchased by George Thomas Hurst, Music Teacher, 15 East St, 25 Oct 1906. 7 ft x 3 ft x 9 ft.
Grave no.s 9949 & 10126 Square K Plot 11 Grant no. 1393 Purchased by Robert Adamson, Grocer, East St. Each grave is 8 ft x 4 ft x 12 ft and made into one vault.
Hope this helps, and well done for sticking with it, folks ;D ;D ;D
Gill
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YEAH ;D ;D
Not only is the posting well set out, but an incredibly useful "template' for others posting messages to "make it clear"!
Good one Gill - hope Tony can work on it!
Judging by the size of the plots those Rochdalians are either VERY tall or there was room for a large family!
Cheers
Marlene
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Tall women run in our family, as they say (though not so fast these days, I'm afraid) ;D
Gill
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Bet Tony's pleased he's not dealing with a fast woman! ::)
Cheers
Marlene
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Kia ora Marlene,
I had enough problems with fat Friars, never mind fast women, until yesterday when all but one of my research problems were solved after 4 years in a single stroke :) ;) :D ;D :o 8) ::) anyone know how to do somersaults on this site :) I've been trying to track over 150 Friars from 1850 - 1900's with about 30 of them a priority. From 80 pages of documentation i received yesterday i've confirmed all my research so far and added in lots of new additional dates and places. Enough to keep me occupied for the next few weeks. Will e-mail you and Gill with the details and keep an eye on the "Dallas" plot at Rochdale.
Snow ??? Long Johns ???
It's rather warm tonight, might just have some strawberries and ice cream for supper, with a glass of NZ Sauvignon Blanc - the only good thing to have come out of NZ since Martin Johnson returned home after playing for NZ under 21's, rejoined the English team as Captain, and well we know the rest of the story ;D
And Gill, yes we will stop squabbling on your topic - eventually ;D ;D
Now where did i put the ice cream scoop
Best wishes
Tony
-
Stop rubbing in all your successes! I have no Friars fat or otherwise on my shoulder at present. Guess they didn't have illegitimate babies with cousins??????? Not my direct line fortunately I'd never get Aunt Snob to swallow that! ;D
The mountain range out my window is covered with the white stuff and I'm preparing my supplies for Saturday night when we begin the Tri Nations series against South Africa AND sail for the America's Cup. T'will be a L...O....N......G night! No need to chill the Vino or have ice for the Bacardi, lime & lemonade.
Carry on with your fat friars- did any of them become Wilkinson's wringing their hands with nerves??
Ciao for now - sorry Gill!
Marlene
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Tony
Well done with your fat friars research. Just stick with us Fair(e)ys, we bring good fortune, whichever shoulder we sit on. ;D 80 pages of documents - you certainly deserve success, and I'm looking forward to hearing more about your findings.
and Marlene
Good luck with your kicking Kiwis. ::) I'm sure you'll keep us updated with their progress.
All this talk of Bacardis and Sauvignon Blanc has made me rather thirsty. I'm not fussy, any smooth red wine will do for me, though a Barolo would be good...
Chin, chin! :D
Gill
-
Hi Gill
Just sent you an e-mail, better top up your glass before reading :o And now i'm off home after an exhausting day to find a glass of my own.
cheers
tony :)
-
Hi Gill,
Your table makes things a lot clearer, however i'm having a very senior moment and can't remember now who i'm supposed to be looking up next :-[ :-[ I've got some time tomorrow to have a quick look.
Best wishes
Tony
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Hi Gill
Sending you this in the hope you will be able to see ALL the messages now.
Marlene
-
Sorry, Tony, missed your last message because my computer was frozen on Wednesday last and now it's Sunday ::)
With a little help from another Rootschatter and the Refresh button I am now up to date. ;D
Thanks, Marlene. The problem seems to have been solved now, I expect it was something daft :-[ that I did.
Tony, I've almost forgotten (oh, those senior moments ::), but I think it was those Butterworth memorials surrounding the Hursts that you were going to have a look at for names. (My gt-gt-grandmother was Betty Butterworth.) But on the 7th June you did already give me some of their names, and said that some of the plots had no names, so perhaps that's as far as I can get without the grave and grant numbers.
Thanks for all your help. I'm looking forward to hearing your broadcast.
Gill :)
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No problem Gill,
I'm off to work shortly and will pop into cemetery on way home to tidy up the names for you. I've also been meaning to go back anyway because i think they may :-\ be fallen headstones under the grass. The Crabtree or Wittom, i can't remember which has fallen, and the grass is growing over it. A number of the graves without markers have raised ground in front of them, where you might expect a depression. I'll take a plastic tent peg and gently test if there might be headstones under the grass.
Be back later
Arohanui
Tony
p.s found a useful article on BBC site on Maori language. We can now keep up with the Kiwi mutterings from down under ;D
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/pda/A402382?s_split=1&s_id=1
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Plastic tent peg, indeed! If the weather's anything like the deluge we're experiencing here, you'll need a complete tent to work under. Don't get mistaken for a graverobber now, will you?
Ka kite ano (I think ;D)
Gill
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Hi Gill
Rochdale monsoon didn't start till after 3. Weathermen said to expect a month's rainfall in next 36 hours - i think they meant 36 minutes :o
Managed to ferret about under an umbrella when it eased and the soft ground made it easier to probe plot 6236 Butterworth. I tried 8 locations with a plastic tent peg so as not to scratch anything down there - (I'm a big fan of Time Team ;D ) I hit something 2 inches down, 1 missed anything and 6 made contact 4 inches down. I resisted the temptation to stamp on the plot to get an overall feel for how solid the ground was, for a number of reasons.
a) reverance
b) i've spent too much time with your rellies already without wishing to drop in on them ;D
c) can you imagine what an observer may have thought seeing me dancing on someone's grave :o
There does seem to be something at the same level as the adjacent fallen Tweedale memorial. It will take a spade to find out ::) I'll talk to Cemetery staff about the protocol for this. I shouldnt imagine it will be a problem as it would be like tending a grave but on a larger scale. One problem might be that IF it is there it might not be face up as in that position it could have fallen forward. But we'll see.
I've produced a table of the relationship of the graves and placement of memorials using Andrea's helpful map. I'll post here for now then transcribe all the inscriptions when i have time. I realise now that i didn't take a picture of Butterworths at 6102 or Pryor's at 6159 last time so i'll make sure i do next time.
Best wishes
Tony
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Tony
I'd love to have been a fly on a gravestone watching your activities ;D I really can't thank you enough for all the trouble you are taking over my relatives/plot neighbours. It strikes me that I have been very lucky indeed that my family gravestones have remained upright and legible.
The Butterworth clan are so huge that it will probably be very difficult for me to prove any relationships, though it's interesting that there is also a Clegg monument in the same group - a relative of John Hurst's first wife Elizabeth with whom I'm in contact says there are are both Butterworths and Cleggs in her tree. But then they are very popular Rochdale surnames. ::)
Best regards,
Gill
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Hi All,
Sorry to butt in, but I have just been reading your posts about the Butterworths, etc. It makes fascinating reading, especially as I have Butterworths and Cleggs on my maternal side, and Hursts on my paternal side. Thank you for a very entertaining time, even if none of the above appear to be related to me, at this stage. I am still in the early stages of research, having only started searching in 2005. Keep up the good work, all of you.
Julie in Oz.
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Hi Julie, and welcome to this thread. :)
I've followed up several Rochdale Butterworth families which turned out not to be mine, so if you let me have the names of yours, I might be able to help out.
Actually any of the Butterworth and Hurst names would interest me. How far back can you go? Are they all from the Rochdale district? My oldest Hurst is James b c1773 in Milnrow, Rochdale, but I've just not been able to trace which family my gt-gt-grandmother Betty Butterworth came from. There are so many of the same name around the same time.
Regards,
Gill
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Good morning Gill, I hope you are all keeping your feet dry, I've been watching the flood warnings rolling in again ::)
Hello Julie,
I have an outstanding looK up in Rochdale Library on my to do list so feel free to shout If i can help.
Best wishes
Tony
-
Gidday you lot!
30+ degrees in my neck of woods but about to be hit by a tropical cyclone so have had to move the outdoor furniture and roll up the sun umbrella!
There's Butterworths, Hursts and Cleggs Down Under and I have friends or family with each of those names!
How's the internet Maori lessons Tony? Kei te pai??
Arohanui
Marlene
-
'Ow do, lads and lasses (Rochdale-speak, since I can't manage Maori)
Feet dry so far, thanks, Tony. It's nowhere near as bad as the summer floods, though I do know people who are still living in caravans because they cannot get back into their homes yet. Poor things, living in such cramped conditions with the knowledge that their homes have probably become unsaleable has also had a disastrous effect on family relationships, I believe. Highways authorities were very busy last week clearing out culverts and ditches (about time, too!), and my husband was forced to take an alternative route home one day, crossing the Severn via the new bridge at Chepstow (road signs in English and Welsh) rather than driving along the river bank up to Gloucester.
Marlene, you're just trying to make us jealous with your 30+ degrees. Make sure you get the cat in safely as well as the garden furniture, won't you?
Regards to all Butterworths, Hursts and Cleggs here in the UK and in NZ. :D
Gill
-
Kei te harikoa ahau, Marlene, tēna rawa atu koe.
Reet gradely, Gill, thank you
;D
T
x
-
By gum, lad, tha's a clever clogs!
Tarra!
Gill. ;D ;D ;D
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Hi Gillian, Tony and all!
I've just had a great time reading this whole saga. Fancy meeting up again in Rochdale,, Gillian! Mainly though just to reiterate what people have said, I've always been astounded by the service above and beyond expectations given by Rochdale Local Studies, Bury Library and Heywood Library and also |Rochdale Cemetery regarding their own and Heywood records.
I contacted the cemetery, really on in my research, before they were so inundated, just to see whatthe set up was for lookups.
They asked mne to give them a name, and I didn't even have dates on me, but they got back in no time with two graves, one of which had three generations of grandparents - g, gg, and ggg and a child I wasn't aware of. The other and one they guessed was a family grave, gave me details that found a good few marriages, and other info.
I will look through all my grave papers and see if there are any links.
By the way, I've not forgotten the Cumbrians, but I've not managed to get recently.
Thanks for the great read.
Emms
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Rascal acknowledges your concern and makes it perfectly clear that her grey tabby fur coat is far too hot for the conditions. She is thus content to lie in the ever diminishing puddles left by the sprinkler at about 9pm each night, knowing that I am in the nearest room about that time, frantically chasing peripatetic Fairys all over the globe!
Tony thanks for the Maori- you are a gem! Pity that Betty Windsor's family has decided not to attend Sir Edmund Hillary's funeral tomorrow - note that 100 years from now it will probably be cited as a turning point for Republicanism in Aotearoa.
Tena koe Emma! Greetings from the home of the All Blacks!
Ka kite
Marlene
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Hi Emms
Glad you enjoyed the read. Now you're taking me back to my childhood, when being called Gillian meant I was in trouble with my Mum ;D.
Regards,
Gill
-
Hi Gill GILLIAN, WHERE ARE YOU, YOUR TEA HAS BEEN ON THE TABLE FOR TEN MINUTES ;D
Marlene, it is an eternal shame none of Betty's brood were there for Edmund's funeral, when he was so 'present' at her Coronation. He was my childhood hero :(
Arohanui
Tony
-
Moi Aussi!
I was fortunate enough to spend time in Nepal and left with a suitcase full of neatly written Sherpa cards Usual plea went somthing like this:
"Mrs Marlene, please give this to my friend Burra Sahib, when you go home to remind him of his friend......"
The Nepali were disppointed that I wasn't Ed's cuzzy but that the fact that I was a Kiwi was enough to ensure invitations to many a village party and the usual Delhi belly which followed! ::)
Ed kindly acknowledged the parcel of crumpled, torn at the edges, cards he received when I returned to Aotearoa! Obviously many had been through many a mountain stream before I received them!
The Sherpas, Indians, Maori and the Mountaineering buudies all contributed to his farewell yesterday, ably led by his son, daughter & grandchildren who each contributed wonderful insights into the man.
We Kiwis have a lost a great man, and the world is poorer for it.
Marlene
-
Tēna rawa atu koe i tō aitua nui
:(
All RootChatters have a mountain to climb, Sir Edmund Hillary should be an inspiration to us all.
;D
Nga mihi nui
Tony
-
I do remember being at school then and feeling more excited about the conquest of Everest than the coronation. Later Col. John Hunt came to talk to us about the expedition. We'd much rather have had Sir Ed. :D
"Gilliaaaan, are you up yet?" is the one I remember most. Never could leap out of bed in the mornings. (I always answered "Yes", whether I was up or not ;D)
Cheers,
Gill ;)
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Kia ora Tony & Gilliaaan!
We had a weekly magazine type newspaper which had a coloured double page pullout in the middle called the Auckland Weekly.
On my walls I had Betty W, Margaret Rose (my kind of gal), Phil the Greek and Ed!
I always aspired to have as many medals as Betty on my chest, lead the the life of Margaret Rose, marry a man in uniform like Phil, and climb as many mountains as Ed!
WELL I have achieved some............... ::) ::)
Marlene
Heading for bed - a sleepy, hot and bothered Kiwi
-
Now we are all wondering which of those you achieved, Marlene.....
-
YEAH well - there's still time!
M
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Hi Gill
Yes, I was finally cottoning on! I've not been at this all that long and one of the people I've been in con tact with a bit, is a Gillian, searching at this end of the country as well.
Sorry about that! I looked up her Rootschat name, and it does have some similarities. I wondered how the number of posts kept varying!
Sorry again.
Emms
:( :'( :-[
-
Kia Ora Emms
We're a very chatty lot and wander off topic so YOU don't have to apologise but I will! :-[
Cheers
Marlene
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hi all,
who-ever can look at rochdale cemetery Request can you find a Henry Taylor buried 1914? Now with regards to other posts on this post on my Taylor family tree I have an Emma Butterworth TAYLOR now for long time my Family thought this child's Father was Alfred Butterworth but now believe it to be a Henry Taylor's child with the mother being a Alice Butterworth the child was illegitimate and only live for about four months died 1897. Is she buried in this cemetery .
Also I might know why you have a John Taylor buried in with you family but still looking into that at the moment.
also if you look at the post I posted on William Todd other was buried at this cemetery in 1909 you will this some Butterworths & Taylor went to that funereal any relations?
from Dan Tau.
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Hi Daniel
Had a bit of trouble locating your post but found it on
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,102949.0.html
for the benefit of others.
Quote from one of TonyH's discoveries in Rochdale cemetery:
Alfred Butterworth of Ashworth St 11/11/1876 35y
Elizabeth wife of Alfred 14/12/1907 Washington U.S.A 67y
Mary B of Spotland Rd his sister 24/7/187? In her ?? year
Thomas B son of Alfred ? 1898 aged 30
Mary Ellen wife of Thomas 14/11/28 60y
John Taylor 21/5/1919 47y (How did a Taylor get in here )
I'm not al all sure about any of the Butterworth relationships, since it's been so difficult to find the right Betty Butterworth, a very popular name around that time. Hiwever, since the graves were all in the same vault, it certainly suggests that they were related in some way. As I mentioned before, Butterworth is such a common name in Rochdale. A search for burials in Rochdale cemetery shows how difficult it is
http://www.interment.net/data/eng/lancashire/rochdale/rochdale_bsbz.htm
but this site isn't yet complete, as my Hursts aren't on it. My Adamsons across the way from them are, however, so I guess Dave Ollerton still has to cross over the path to their side to complete the survey.
As always, there are more questions than answers, but I'd be interested to hear about John Taylor.
Regards,
Gill
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Hi! Sorry if I seem to be 'butting' in to your conversation! But I have just become interested in tracing my family tree and I was fascinated to see much stuff about the Butterworth's....I didn't realise....hmmm.
I will be going back to Oldham/Rochdale (I left when I was 18, back in 1973 for Australia) to visit in July (08) with my daughter. I would like to do some exploring while I am there.
I am June Butterworth, (daughter of Harry (b.1922?) who was son of Elizabeth and Harvey? Not sure of his name as he does not seem to appear on any family trees and so wondering if I have the name wrong. He had 16 children. I can remember only some of their names. Dad wasn't one for keeping in touch.
Anyway, just thought I would drop in and say 'hi'. Not sure what I am doing yet, but I will keep on hunting around and reading...if anyone wants to chat, feel free to drop me a line. I am in China at the moment (teaching), with not a lot to do... (hence playing on the Net).
Cheerio, June
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Hi June, and welcome to RootsChat and this Rochdale topic! :)
It's a long story, peppered by Butterworths, and there are so many families of this name in Rochdale that it's really difficult to trace them all accurately. If you find a link, do get in touch.
Have fun in China. I hope you are not in the snow-bound part.
Best wishes from another ex-Rochdalian
Gillg
p.s. You might like to remove your email address from the public forum to escape spam mail. People can send you a Personal Message privately and safely by clicking on the S-shaped scroll symbol on the left of the screen under your name. ;)
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Thanks, I edited the msg and removed my email. Have got onto the chat section of this site and met some wonderful folks who are helping me out...it all seems a bit complicated at the moment, but I guess it will get easier as I get used to it...hopefully! I seem to have found Granny...! Now...let's see if she is who I think she is...
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Kia Ora June
Greetings from another schoolmarm!
I'm sure the Rootschatters will look after you but please be warned Genealogy is contagious and definitely cannot be cured!
It's lifelong and expensive to treat with an insatiable thirst for further information!
Yours
Another Addict
Marlene
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Hi Tony
I wonder if your kind offer of Rochdale Cemetery lookups is still available.
If so I would love a pic. and inscription details of Thomas and Eliza WALL Grave or Plot no. 14672 S.
Thomas died in 1939 and grave should be somewhere near the Wall at Sandy Lane End, so I have been told.
Thanks
musictrish
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Hi Musictrish,
Sorry I've been a bit tied up for a while, I'll have a look this weekend for you.
cheers
tony
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Cheers Tony, thats really kind of you.
Trish
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Hi Everyone I,m Dave Ollerton And I would say About 70 percent of the Gravestones Are done for Rochdale I had to give up Due to New Job and Time restraints There are loads more Entries in the registers that don,t Have Gravetones Though and some of the Graves have been laid down For safety Reasons ans sadly some have broke But in Genearal There are still a lot Of Stones legible in Rochdale Cemetery Happy Hunting ;D
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Hi Dave
Just want to say a huge thankyou for the tremendous job you have done in transcribing gravestone inscriptions. I've been able to track down the resting places of quite a few of my relatives with your help, and I'm sure many other folk have, too. That's what I call dedication. :D
Gillg
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Thanx Gillg Glad to have helped Regards Dave ;D
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Hi Dave, can i take it from what you posted that you have transcribed many of the headstone in the cemetery? It is great if this is the case, as i have some that might be in that cemetery.
As regards about them laying the headstones down for health and safety reason, i can only presume that this is down also to make money? Other wise they would lay them face up so that people could read them?
Manchester & Salford do exactly the same thing, one or two one here don't think they do it for money grabbing reason but i have yet to be proved wrong.
Migky ;)
Click 4 Salford Weaste thread (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,354968.45.html)
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Migky
Have you seen the site I was referring to? http://www.interment.net/data/eng/lancashire/rochdale/rochdale.htm And Rochdale is not the only cemetery that Dave has transcribed either!
I have found http://www.interment.net/ really helpful in locating the burials of and other facts about relatives across the world, and the fact that ages and relationships are sometimes included in the information is good, too.
Gillg
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These are answers to quite old posts, but might help someone
Migky: Headstones are not laid "down" for any money making purposes. They are actually laid down (or up) depending on the ease of the laying, for genuine health and safety purposes. This is a countrywide government initiative with guidelines laid down by the health and safety executive following accidents and actual fatalities in cemeteries and church yards involving dangerous headstones. The guidelines state that the headstone must be made safe and sadly laying them down is the safest way. The headstone is the grave owners responsibility. New or refixed headstones must now be fixed with a secure anchor system by a NAMM registered stonemason. If the cemetery were to refix all the dangerous headstones then fees and charges would have to be raised even more to recover the costs.
Dave: It is a fact that some families put a name on a headstone even though that person isn't in the grave, so facts should always be double checked with actual cemetery records. It might be helpful to indicate this on your website and also that it is not owned by Rochdale Cemetery!
Re: Grant...That is the Grant of Right of Burial...in other words...someone who owns a grave has the right to say who is buried in that grave.
Hope this helps :o)
I should add that Rochdale Cemetery staff are not easily charmed........but some of them are quite partial to Maltesars!!!
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Migky: Headstones are not laid "down" for any money making purposes. They are actually laid down (or up) depending on the ease of the laying, for genuine health and safety purposes. This is a countrywide government initiative with guidelines laid down by the health and safety executive following accidents and actual fatalities in cemeteries and church yards involving dangerous headstones. The guidelines state that the headstone must be made safe and sadly laying them down is the safest way. The headstone is the grave owners responsibility. New or refixed headstones must now be fixed with a secure anchor system by a NAMM registered stonemason. If the cemetery were to refix all the dangerous headstones then fees and charges would have to be raised even more to recover the costs.
I should add that Rochdale Cemetery staff are not easily charmed........but some of them are quite partial to Maltesars!!!
Hi, i take it from your reply that you either work at the cemetery or for the council?
I stick by what i said before and still think it is to make money or staff have no interest in the feeling of the family's who are buried in council run cemeteries. If they are laying the headstones down for safety reason, i am sure it would not take much trouble to lay them inscription facing up? Don't for get that under the health and safety regs, the work men would not be aloud to lift/move more than was safe in the first place.
Some of the cemeteries i visit have no consideration at all for the people in the graves or the families that might come to visit them.
1) Weaste cemetery Salford. Piles of smashed broken head stone just dumped in a corner.
2) Manchester Central ( Harpurhey ) Rose beds/flower beds made from smashed broken head stones.
3) Phillips park. Head stone just pushed over and smashed ( Not by vandals) but have to admit they are doing some work on that cemetery. 100's of over grown/grassed over head stones.
4)Southern cemetery. Smashed and piled up head stone.
the list goes on. Also very small head stone with warning marker on.
Migky
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The headstone is the grave owners responsibility
OK you must also have a council answer for this then. What about all the common/pauper graves, who is responsible for those?
Migky
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MigKy: Is that what they do at other cemeteries? That's appalling and in my opinion criminal. At least at some cemeteries they do make an effort to keep them safe. As you say about the health and safety regulations...the staff have to keep safe themselves so they are laid down in the safest way and on to the grave that they belong to (not the one behind as you'd get complaints)...so in some cases if the stone is particularly large/heavy the safest way may be to lay them face down, not face up? I once questioned this, however, if you think about it...if they lay the stone face down, if the stone isn't immediately going to be reinstated it will preserve the inscription if it eventually is. Doesn't help us genealogists in the meantime though, but at least it's not being vandalised.
I can't see how the council would make money from it as the stones have to be reinstated by an independant monumental mason chosen by the owner.
Public graves are owned by the council and private memorials are not allowed to be fixed. However, following some members of staff being upset by having to show many mothers the public graves of their babies and children, a scheme was devised whereby the cemetery fixes a small marker on the grave and the family can purchase an inexpensive bronze plaque to mark the grave. This is also available on public adult graves. Families have been very grateful for this as previously the graves were unmarked as a lot of the number stones do have a tendancy to go missing over the years. I don't think this is available at any other cemeteries?
Does this help? :)