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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: WHS1899 on Saturday 02 June 07 16:43 BST (UK)
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I have a problem with one of my husband's ancestors. His great grandfather's birth cert shows HIS parents as Joseph Ballard and Hannah D'arcy. His siblings, born before and after him show the parents as Joseph Ballard and Hannah Fawkes. ???
The 1881 census with widowed Hannah Ballard and two of her children shows she was born in Stroud, Glos. Research has shown Hannah Fawkes was born in Bisley, Glos (near enough) and the right age etc. There is no trace of a Hannah D'arcy at all...anywhere.
I think great grandfathers mum was Hannah Fawkes, which means the name on the birth cert is incorrect......
Has anyone else come across anything similar? Are mistakes made on certs????
Beverley
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Short answer, yes :D :D
Happened in my family several times, one marriage cert has a totally wrong maiden name, have never found out where it came from, and as the parties concerned couldn't read or write, they wouldn't have known it was written down incorrectly, I suppose.
Barbara
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Barbara,
Thanks for that...I'll just forget about the D'arcy surname and get on with the Fawkes research!
Beverley
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The information is only as good as that given by the informant.
Before 1874 the Registration Act required that
XX. And be it enacted, That the Father or Mother of every child born in England after the said First Day of March, or in case of the Death, Illness, Absence, or Inability of the Father or Mother, the Occupier of the House or Tenement in which such Child shall have been born, shall, within Forty-two Days next after the Day of every such Birth, give Information, upon being requested so to do, to the said Registrar, according to the best of his or her Knowledge and Belief, of the several Particulars hereby required to be known and registered touching the Birth of such Child.
The 1874 Act also has the words to the best of his or her Knowledge and Belief
See http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~framland/acts/actind.htm
Stan
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Is it also possible to make mistakes on Marriage Certificates?
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I have a correction made on a birth certificate - the original gives the date of birth as 7.6.1880 registered on the 3 .6.1880 - a correctionwas made on the 9.10.1880 by the Registrar 'in the presence of' the Deputy Supt Registrar t o show the birth was registered on the 3.7.1880.
So mistakes were made AND acknowledged when they were recognised - not a lot they could do if they weren't recognised !!!!
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Is it also possible to make mistakes on Marriage Certificates?
Oh Yes,
My grandfather's brother had his uncle's name on his marriage cert instead of his father. It is not surprising as the uncle raised him....but had me confused for quite a while.
And then of course there are those that lie about their age.... :o
Or..marital status......widows that are still married! :o
Nothing is ever 100% certain! ;D
Indi
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one marriage cert has a totally wrong maiden name, have never found out where it came from, and as the parties concerned couldn't read or write, they wouldn't have known it was written down incorrectly, I suppose.
Yes, example above :)
Barbara
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I also have a maiden name given as Broad - when from other sources it is Broadhurst - they both married the sme chap ! :)
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When my husband and I went to get married we filled out the application form and got the license. From there we went to see the minister and while waiting started looking at the license. Husband's surname was omitted and his 3rd 'first' name put in the surname box, birthplace (and parents') incorrect...
ended up going back to office and the whole thing was re-typed by woman in charge. If we hadn't paid attention (or not been able to read) the mistakes would have been in the records forever. So yes, mistakes can and (often) do happen.
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The question is though do we treat a primary source as incorrect or do we treat it as correct? Now why hasn't anyone gone to the parish registers (if they were married in church) and checked there to cross reference the information? Surely that is the logical step in the investigation rather than just assuming. Is it not possible that the Hannah D'arcy was in fact a middle name and the registrar as not realised that? There are so many conundrums and in fact it could be that this entry is in fact correct. For example could he not have been the father of an illigitimate child? Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but one should never assume anything especially when other avenues are open to cross reference this information.
As for marriage certs I never believe ages or parents names unless I can confirm them with the baptisms of the couple getting wed. There are far to many people lying to get the marriage carried out. My own ggg grandmother claimed she was 18 and was in fact 15. Her father is supposed to have signed to say he gave permission however on his own wedding he could neither read nor write. She claimed she was OTP when in fact she lived 20 miles from the parish and that was just one wedding :)
Rob
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Is it also possible to make mistakes on Marriage Certificates?
In the "Guide to the Clergy with Reference to the Marriage and Registration Acts" there is a whole section on the correction of errors in completed marriage entries.
See Section 44 of the 1836 Registration Act.
Stan
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Yes...mistakes were made...
My late Uncle, Ernest Rencella Wilson, (1897-1957) was initially registered as 'Alice Rencella Wilson', - the error was noted 3months later, & the name (& sex:-) ammended!! (As a 'clerical error').
Romilly.
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And then there's the "deliberate mistakes". The birthdate on my great-grandmother's certificate is wrong because there was a fine for late registration, so great-great-grandfather fiddled the dates.
If I had not been lucky enough to have been alive before my great-grandmother died, and in the habit of sending her birthday wishes, I'd never have questioned it. But I did, and my great-Aunt (her daughter) confirmed that yes the date was fiddled with! :o
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What about census information sheets (Scotland)? I have found that my great grandfather has 3 incorrect ages on 3 different census sheets given for himself. I have no explanation for this other than that he might have been trying to make himself younger in order to keep his job. It doesn't look like a mistake of the recorder as the rest of the family is correct. Has anyone else had this kind of thing?
Rapunzel
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Family history information is a bit like chinese whispers - the more times it is copied or passed on, the greater the risk of a "mistake".
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However a certificate should be a one time thing aftr all the groom gives his name etc so its not a case of chinese whispers. Now a PR blunder yes because at times the vicar scrawled it on paper and ave it to his clerk to fill in and we all know how peoples writing can be terrible
Rob
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A man I researched recently was born in 1863, but each census return showed him getting younger, and by the time he married he had lost 10 years... ::)
Death cert ages are also suspect, perhaps because the informant may not have been sure of the deceased's actual age.
Barbara
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A man I researched recently was born in 1863, but each census return showed him getting younger, and by the time he married he had lost 10 years... ::)
Barbara
The recording of ages in the census returns is without doubt one of the most problematic. The ages reported in the census must be regarded as only a rough approximations of fact, although in very general terms the majority of the ages stated will be consistent from census to census. Most discrepancies will be in the order of one or two years, but larger differences are by no means uncommon. 'Making Sense of the Census' by Edward Higgs.
Stan
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Thanks everyone!
I hadn't thought about D'arcy being a middle name...could explain a lot. Frederick Ballard, the son of Joseph Ballard and Hannah "D'arcy" is living with his mother, Hannah Ballard in 1881. Everything from this census points to her being Hannah FAWKES from Bisley.....
I think it will probably turn out to be some sort of mistake on the birth cert, but will look into it further!
Beverley
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This thread has certainly explained a lot for me. Up until a few week ago I was going around in circles with my G G Grandfather who's death certificate stated his mother as Elizabeth Wing Forge. After tearing my hair out trying to match a Wing Forge with the right dates (and almost giving up) I discovered she is in fact his grandmother! (no, she didnt raise him as she died quite young) Mother was Eliza Ann King who also died when he was very young.
If that isnt enough when G G Grandfather's daughter Elizabeth marries she states her mother as Elizabeth Mitchell when it should be Sarah Mitchell. Just out of interest Elizabeth's husband was the informant for G G Grandfather's death certificate information. ARRRRGGGGG! ;D ;D ;D
I have been wondering if this type of thing was common on certificates and now I know I'm not alone.
Bron
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Are mistakes made on birth certs? Short answer, yes with an if. Long answer, no with a but. ;D
Seriously, mistakes do happen. My great-grandfather's birth certificate has a little note added in 1948 (60-years after he was born) correcting his surname (the correction notes his elder brother and sister-in-law attesting to the correct surname)...the family was of Dorset, so I full expect their accent threw off the registrar when he was registered in Pontypool here in Wales. At the end of the day, registrars are only human and they can make mistakes quite easily.
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The birth certificate might be correct. I am researching this couple and I think that Hannah's parents might not be married. In which case, even though she is listed on the census as a Fawkes, D'arcy may be Hannah's mother and Hannah's legal surname.
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This might not be considered a mistake - but this type of thing has certainly caused our family a headache - and a laugh!
Grandad went to register the birth of his 4th son - he named him Arnold Eric. As it happened, he had spent a few hours down the pub wetting the babies head before he went to the register office. Being a bit tipsy - he named him Arnold Eric - the same name as his 3rd son. So I had 2 uncles named Arnold Eric - and Grandma was not amused.
Birth, marriage and death certs are a wonderful mystery. Oh how people lied - or went to the pub!
Indi
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I know of someone - I'll use John Smith as a pseudonym for him - who has gone through life officially as John Holder Smith. The middle name came about because both parents, little baby and toddler sister all went to register the birth. Father, who was a very abrupt character, was giving the information and was also carrying wriggling daughter. The Registrar asked for the new baby's name and Father said "John" then, to his wife "Hold her!" and handed the toddler over, then to Registrar, "Smith". He then realised that the Registrar had put the unwanted middle name in. The Registrar insisted that as the certificate had been filled the Father would have to pay again to have an amended one. Father refused and John's birth certificate will no doubt cause endless headaches for family researchers in the future, trying to tie in his middle name with non-existant connections.
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Hi BradMajors,
Thanks for the message. You say you are researching this couple......what connection do you have to them? I'd love to hear from you. I've also sent a personal message to you.
WHS
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I have on my tree the name Fawks or Faux, the ancestors of Jane Faux born 1797 in Keynsham, Somerset. Jane married on 4 December 1819 one of my ancestors, Jonathan Fray born 1799 in Keynsham. Would this fit in with any of your Fawkes?
Dorothy
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Hi, I have a similar problem in my family. My great great grandmother may well have been married and widowed already by the time she had her 3 children ie I dont know if Lawler is her maiden name or the name of a first husband if she had one. Because she didnt marry the father of her children she put widow on one census and called herself seyer [his name] on the next census. As well as clerical error there are also human possibilites to consider.
btw she used her maiden name as a middle name for all three children, however, the youngest got christened lawless cos someone must have read the squiggly r as a double ss.
Hope this helps rather than hinders;)
Roofy
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I have a similar question mark over my gt gt grandmother's maiden name on her children's birth certificates. She was illegitimate with no father's name on her birth certificate, on her marriage certificate she gives her maternal grandfather as her "father", but on her eldest child's birth certificate she gives her maiden name as Cochrane- which is neither her mother's maiden name (i.e. the name she was registered with) nor her stepfather's name (her mother having married when she was 9).
Subsequent children were registered with her maiden name as her actual birth name, but "Cochrane" remains either a clerical error .. or a tantalising clue to her actual father's identity.
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its amazing we actually do as well as we do at tracing our ancestry :)
but thats the buzz , seeing through the mistakes/lies and breaking down these walls
dee
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My husband's dad had the wrong date of birth on his cert.
They were Irish and when grandad went to town to register the birth-one of many he'd had to do ;D he said 'the wife had a baby boy last Wednesday'
But the registrars idea of last Wednesday was different to grandad's and it ended up being a week out....of course he was either a little sozzled,or he didn't read and write English too well to notice the error at the time.
Carol
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My GGrandmother had put her fathers first name and then stepfathers surname on her 3rd marriage cert - caused no end of problems until I realised what she had done! She was a bit flightly!!!
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I remember hearing somewhere that the Queen Mother's birth certificate was a bit dubious - apparently her birth was registered late and it says she was born at the family's country home at St Paul's Walden near Hitchin in Hertfordshire, when many biographies think this is inaccurate and she was actually born in London.
Not just illiterate labourers who get things muddled...
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Elizabeth's birth was registered as having taken place at the family home of St Paul's Walden Bury, near Hitchin, Hertfordshire, though there is some doubt about this, and it has been suggested that the delivery occurred in a horse-drawn ambulance in London or perhaps at her parents' town house in Grosvenor Gardens. For failing to register the birth within the required forty-two days Lord Glamis was fined 7s. 6d.
Oxford Dictionary of National Biography
Stan
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My great, great grandfather's 1856 birth appears not to have been registered by his parents Thomas and Ann Musgrave. He had a namesake cousin (so of Thomas's brother Robert) whose birth was registered. And he was nearly not the only one not to have their birth registered as his sister was born 1st March 1871 and not registered until 27th April 1871. Thomas and Ann Musgrave were not too bothered with registration then if they missed one of their sons and almost failed to register their daughter. Their other childrens births seemed to have been registered.
It was the duty of the registrar to travel around the district before 1875 so it is no wonder why some births slipped the net.
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The 1836 Registration Act stated;
" every Registrar shall be authorized and is hereby required to inform himself carefully of every Birth and every Death which shall happen within his District after the said First Day of March, and to learn and register soon after the Event as conveniently may be done, without Fee or Reward save as herein-after mentioned,"
It was left to his discretion to employ such lawful means of informing himself as appeared to be best, but he had to employ some means. He would most likely have referred to people such as doctors, midwives, undertakers etc. that would have knowledge of any birth or death in his district.
Stan
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Interesting.
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My own birth ceritifcate, contains an error on it. My Dad put my Mum's place of birth as the very small village where she lived throughout her childhood, when in fact she was born in a neighbouring town's hospital (presumably because he was born at home, he just assumed she was born at home too).
Although it may not be a particularly important inaccuracy, the fact I believed she was born in that village, until I started researching my family history, just goes to show how easy it is to mistake a well placed bit of fiction for fact.
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The 1836 Registration Act stated;
" every Registrar shall be authorized and is hereby required to inform himself carefully of every Birth and every Death which shall happen within his District after the said First Day of March, and to learn and register soon after the Event as conveniently may be done, without Fee or Reward save as herein-after mentioned,"
It was left to his discretion to employ such lawful means of informing himself as appeared to be best, but he had to employ some means. He would most likely have referred to people such as doctors, midwives, undertakers etc. that would have knowledge of any birth or death in his district.
Stan
And that is still the case today although now the maternity unit have to inform the registrar of births. The difference between the 1836 act and todays as I see it is the fact that it is now the parents responsibility to attend the registrar and not the other way around
Rob
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It was the 1874 Act that made it the responsibility to attend the registrar
1, In the case of every child born alive after the commencement of this Act, it shall be the duty of the father and mother of the child, and in default of the father and mother, of the occupier of the house in which to his knowledge the child is born, and of each person present at the birth, and of the person having charge of the child, to give to the registrar, within forty-two days next after such birth, and in the presence of the registrar to sign the register.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~framland/acts/1874Act.htm
Stan
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As Stan said I think from 1837 to 1874 the registrar got wind of new births in the district by word of mouth from doctors, nurses and midwives.
One weird thing is the birth cert of my great, great, great uncle Frederick Goodacre Roberts in 1860. The birth cert has his father as Thomas Roberts, Footman of 16 West Hill Street, Brighton, which ties in with the 1861 census with his wife Esther Roberts. Frederick died just before the 1861 census in March 1861. He was baptised in June 1860 son of Thomas and Esther Roberts of 16 wets Hill Street but his birth cert says his mum was Ellen Roberts formerly Bridgeman???? I have been unable to trace any mention of her in censuses, etc, so I suppose it is just human error.
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Yes, there is one on my marriage certificate from 1975. Must admit I didn't notice for about a year. It gives my fathers occupation as Company Director - I am sure he wished he was, he was an chemical worker!!
I can only assume that the couple who married one hour before us also have an incorrect occupation on their certificate.
Hey Ho
Regards
Kathb
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My own birth ceritifcate, contains an error on it. My Dad put my Mum's place of birth as the very small village where she lived throughout her childhood, when in fact she was born in a neighbouring town's hospital (presumably because he was born at home, he just assumed she was born at home too).
Not sure this is an error. Aren't all births registered as the home address of the mother?
Dara.
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My wife's birth certificate had her born two days late. A correction was later apended to the certificate. Apparently when registering the birth he was so excited he gave the wrong date! When her brother was born it was her mother who registered the birth!
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Not sure this is an error. Aren't all births registered as the home address of the mother?
Dara.
The certificate has in column 1 "When and Where Born"
The birth is registered at the address where it actually took place, which could a hospital or the address of a neighbour or relative.
Stan
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They say that birth certs are the most informative of the 3 but I somehow think marriage certs are just as informative as they give the spouses fathers names and occupations, the witnesses and the grooms occupation.
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i also have come across the wrong name on birth cert,it was boyle on others and on baptism records, but two siblings say powell.
i'm sure it is a mistake with hearing the name incorrectly especially with them being irish and not able to read or write.
it does throw you for a time ,but eventually you come around to accepting the mistake
ann
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I think accents often explain errors on genealogy certs. Spell it as you hear it.
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My grandmother had two different dates on her marraige cert. one in April for date of marraige
and another in May, date and signature of registrar.!
We are pretty sure that the correct date is May......... as when she was alive, she never ceased to
remind us, 'Marry in May, and regret the day'........ she was seperated!!
Alyson