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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lincolnshire => Topic started by: miltonbank on Wednesday 30 May 07 22:42 BST (UK)
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Hi guys
Sorry for the dramatic subject header ;D but can anyone help me trace a Lincolnshire woman from the 1850s whose surname I don't even know?
I'm trying to trace a woman known only at this stage by her 'married' name, Sarah MacBeth. In the 1901 census she was listed as aged 48, making her date of birth approximately 1853 and the only further information I have is that she was born in the village of Welton Le Marsh. Her first name may also have been Sarah Ann.
Unfortunately, I cannot look at a marriage certificate because I believe she was a common law wife who posted herself as married in the census to 'husband' William as a face-saving exercise, common with those who were raised in the Victorian era.
All help gratefully received - from male or female!
Many thanks in advance.
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Hi miltonbank,
Did Sarah and "husband" William have any children? If so her "maiden" name should be on the birth certificate.
I have a couple like this on one of my lines; on all 10 childrens' birth certs and the husband's death cert she used her "married " name!
Nanny Jan
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Hi Nanny Jan
Unfortunately, no. They appear to have 'got together' in their forties so no kids for them. I've tried tracing a death certificate for her under the name MacBeth, but with no joy yet, hence the search for the maiden name to see if it can cast some light.
Thanks for the suggestion anyway.
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Pity there were no kids ...
too many choices - from the 1861 census - assuming she used the same PoB and no mistranscriptions ....
Sarah Blackburn 1855 Welton, Lincolnshire Daughter Welton Le Wold Lincolnshire
Sarah Borman 1852 Welton, Lincolnshire Daughter Welton Le Wold Lincolnshire
Sarah Coulson 1851 Welton, Lincolnshire Daughter Welton Lincolnshire
Sarah Dawber 1853 Welton, Lincolnshire Daughter Welton Lincolnshire
Sarah Hewson 1852 Welton, Lincolnshire Daughter Welton Le Wold Lincolnshire
Sarah R Hornby 1851 Welton, Lincolnshire Daughter Welton Lincolnshire
Sarah Lorrance 1855 Welton, Lincolnshire Daughter Cherry Willingham Lincolnshire
Sarah Ann Roe 1855 Welton, Lincolnshire Daughter Welton Lincolnshire
Sarah Walker 1854 Welton, Lincolnshire Daughter Welton Lincolnshire
Sarah Ann Willerton 1851 Welton, Lincolnshire Daughter Welton Lincolnshire
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Thanks Newfy . . . I looked at a Lincolnshire Street Atlas and saw Welton le Marsh was such a small place I thought she might have been easier to trace; no such luck. I'll maybe try to find a connection with the Sarah Anns as a first port of call. More questions than answers - isn't research always thus!
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Too many Weltons! :(
Welton by Lincoln - about 5 miles N of Lincoln.
Welton le Wold is 3 miles W of Louth.
Welton le Marsh is between Skegness and Spilsby ... census piece 2376 in 1861
Sarah's born in Welton le Marsh 1845-55 - remembering that she was older than Wm McB, she may have "reduced" her age ...
Sarah R(ebecca) HORNBY 1850
Sarah KIRKMAN 1845 - married Esau EVISON - still with him in 1901.
Sarah Ann MACKINDER 1845 - still single in 1901
Not much help :(
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Take your point Geoff - I produced my list by using WELTON* in the Birth field .....
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Hi guys
I received a reply this morning from Bradford Archives - Sarah Ann had spent a spell in the workhouse there in 1915. The archivist wrote the creed register shows Sarah Ann, husband's name William, admitted herself to Bradford Workhouse on March 3 1915. Her date of birth was listed as 1859 and before admission she lived with her sister (also listed on the creed register as nearest relative) at 149 Manningham Lane, Bradford. The sister's name was Adelaide Townsend.
The best Adelaide Townsend 'fit' (assuming Adelaide was single) appears to be based in earlier census records around the Leeds area, which is taking us further away from Welton Le Marsh and Lincolnshire. All advice gratefully received!
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I think Adelaide will lead us to the answer
1901
5 Ebor St, Bradford
Adolph TOWNSEND 47 Keeper of Servants Registry, Alford Lincs
Adelaide ??? 47 Welton le Marsh
Marriages Mar 1876
LUCAS Adalaide Clemence Bradford, Y. 9b 283
TOWNSEND Adolphe Bradford Y 9b 283
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Magic, thanks Geoff!
So, in effect, Sarah Ann's 'maiden' name appears to be Lucas? However, I don't understand the frown next to Adelaide's name? Are you unhappy with her age in 1901, which is given as 47? It seems to fit with Sarah - she was listed as aged 48 in 1901 census and while there are various discrepancies with her birth and year of birth, they are all within five/six years of each other.
I'll try to trace death reference for Sarah Ann Lucas around the 1915-25 period. I have a sad feeling she wouldn't have lived much longer . . . .
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The ??? was because three question marks automatically generates that smilie - I meant there was a word that I couldn't read.
I think I must chase this family ;)
1871
Welton le Marsh
James SYLVESTER 66 AgLab, Sloothby
Sarah Ann 46 Sloothby
Adelaide 16 Dressmaker, Welton
Hanes (male) 14 Welton
Sarah Ann 12 Welton
Adolphe 11 Welton
Susan FROST (Niece) 19 Orby
I wonder how many Adolphe's there were in that corner of Lincs?
Marriages Sep 1856
LUCAS Sarah Ann Spilsby 7a 833
Sylvester James Spilsby 7a 833
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So, in effect, Sarah Ann's 'maiden' name appears to be Lucas?
This doesn't necessarily mean the maiden name was Lucas - Adelaide might have been married before.
In 1871 there is a SYLVESTER family in Welton le Marsh with a 16 yr old daughter Adelaide and a 12 yr old daughter Sarah Ann (among other children) who might well merit further investigation: RG10/3394 folio 67 p15.
Edited - sorry, Geoff E. - cross-posted with you - great minds think alike ;)
Anna
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In 1871 there is a SYLVESTER family in Welton le Marsh with a 16 yr old daughter Adelaide and a 12 yr old daughter Sarah Ann (among other children) who might well merit further investigation: RG10/3394 folio 67 p15.
It's the Adolphe that adds interest I think!
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Adolph Sylvester then names his daughter Adelaide Clemence Sylvester (Adelaide C. per 1891 census) - birth Mar 1886 Spilsby Lincs - which makes it very likely this family is linked to the Bradford census entry for Adelaide Clemence Townsend.
Anna
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1861
Welton
James SYLVESTER 46 AgLab, Willoughby
Sarah Ann 38 Sloothby
Charles HANES 10
Edward SYLVESTER 12
Adelaide 6
Hanes 4
Sarah 3
Adolphe 6m
Sarah Ann had been married before
Marriages Jun 1851
Hanes Sarah Ann Spilsby 14 1135
Lucas John Spilsby 14 1135
I can't find a death or burial for John LUCAS (the 1857 death was an infant)
I can see no birth for Adelaide but, as she was born between the 2 marriages, she would have been a LUCAS of course.
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Confusing, isn't it?!
So far, I am taking from the information that Sarah Ann and Adelaide were probably half-sisters (same mother, different fathers) because Adelaide's surname was Lucas when she married in 1876 (the same name as the mother's first husband, John Lucas).
Isn't it intriguing that Adelaide married an Adolph(e) (Townsend) in 1876 - the same name as her younger (half) brother.
Is that a fair an accurate assessment of previous posts?
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Isn't it intriguing that Adelaide married an Adolph(e) (Townsend) in 1876 - the same name as her younger (half) brother.
Is that a fair an accurate assessment of previous posts?
Yes a fair assessment I think.
I think the occurrence of Adolphe TOWNSEND with Miss LUCAS is just one of those coincidences that life occasionally throws up, even though he was born only a handful of miles from Welton :o
1871
Doncaster
Cotnam TOWNSEND 45 Artist, Lincs Whaplode
Mary 47 Yorks Darfield
Julie Adele 20 Lincs Long Sutton
Adolphe 17 Newspaper Reporter, Lincs Alford
1861
Doncaster
Cotnam TOWNSEND 35 Newspaper Proprietor and Editor, Whaplode
Mary 36 Yorks Edderthorpe
Sarah 14 Sutton
Margaret A 13 Sutton
Julia A 11 Sutton
John G 10 Sutton
Adolphe 7 Alford
Agnes BEARDSHAW 14 Servant, Misson
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Re "just a coincidence", I've changed my mind
A baptism
COTNAM HAINES TOWNSEND - where did he come from?
21 FEB 1869 Saint Michael-Le-Belfry, York, Yorkshire, England, son of Cotnam TOWNSEND and Julie Adele.
Some marriages
Marriages Jun 1846
Hanes Chule Adele Spilsby 14 1067 (She died in 1857, then he married Mary JACKSON)
Townsend Cotnam Spilsby 14 1067
There's some funny things going on!
1851
Sutton St Mary
Cotnam TOWNSEND 25 Stationer Etc, Whaplode
Julie Adle 29 Sloothby
Sarah 4
Margaret 3
Julie Adele 11m
Kids born Long Sutton.
So the first Mrs TOWNSEND and (the second) Mrs SYLVESTER were sisters - piece o' cake!
And Sarah Ann HANES had an illegitimate daughter Julie Adele HANES with John LUCAS in 1846.
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Now come on Geoff, play fair I feel like a kid who is just learning to count with his fingers has been planted in the middle of a discussion with Albert Einstein on applied mathematics!
You lost me on the "coincidence - I don't think so" line!
Can you explain it to me like the dork I am and stop the guys in the office wondering why I've been scratching my head for the last 10 minutes and gazing into the middle distance every in a study of concentrated angst! ;D
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It's so simple really :D Julie Adele and Sarah Ann HANES were sisters.
Julie Adele married Cotnam TOWNSEND and one of their children was Adolphe TOWNSEND.
Sarah Ann (eventually) married John LUCAS and they had a child Adelaide Clemence LUCAS.
Adolphe TOWNSEND and Adelaide LUCAS later married. By my reckoning, they were first cousins.
As stated earlier, Adelaide was half-sister to the Sarah Ann who later shacked up with your Mr McBETH.
My only questions now (you do not need to concern yourself with them) ...
Who was this Cotnam TOWNSEND who turned up in 1859?
Where was Sarah Ann SYLVESTER between 1871 and 1901?
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Where was Sarah Ann SYLVESTER between 1871 and 1901?
In 1881 (as Sarah A. SYLVESTER) she was with Adolphe and Adelaide TOWNSEND in Bradford: RG11/4460 folio 44 p9.
Anna
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Wahey,
I have an interest in this thread. My daughter-in-law recently produced us a grandson and inter alia it came up that his other grandfather on his mother's side had the unusial middle name of grimalde.
So after a day or two of fossicking as to where this might have originated I came to John Usher marrying Sarah Ann Farmer in 1875. Sarah Ann Farmer had two brothers named Grimalde Farmer who both died in infancy. So some progress.
Sarah Anne's mum was Elizabeth Townsend b Holbeach ca 1831/2. She I think had two brothers Cotnam Townsend b Whaplode ca 1825/6 and Grimalde Townsend, christened Holbeach 1833. I suspect that they shared common parents in George & Sarah (Fields) Townsend.
On the 1841 census, Cotnam, it seems to me appears on the same page as his grandfather, Cotnam Fields as an apprentice newspaper printer and editor, in Holbeach under the name of Thomas Townsend - a common foible amongst the young who shun the unusual names foisted on them by their parents :-). Grimalde Usher was no different - went by the name of James!
Sarah Fields was the daughter of Cotnam Fields and Ann Grimalde who married in Holbeach ca 1794 :D
So someone, somewhere on ancestry has either surmised the same as I about Cotnam Townsend's origins or sought the original parish records for Whaplode but they also give George and Sarah (Fields) as his parents.
HTH,
Howdie (in the chatroom)
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Hi :)
I seem to have enjoyed this thread at the time but I don't remember doing any fossicking :D
Cotnam FIELDS seems to have married twice at Holbeach (both to Ann's)-
http://freereg.rootsweb.com/cgi/SearchResults.pl?RecordType=Marriages&RecordID=1020520
http://freereg.rootsweb.com/cgi/SearchResults.pl?RecordType=Marriages&RecordID=1020899
Marriage 27 May 1846 at Willoughby
Cotnam TOWNSEND (son of George) to Chula Adele HAINES (dau of John)
See Spilsby spreadsheet here http://s10.freefronthost.com/mi/index.html
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Geoff,
Now that's what I call fossicking.
I hadn't thought of looking at Freegen for ages as all I ever came up with was a lemon, and your posting has answered a lot of queries.
Fossicking is like setting up a lamp and a sheet and seeing what moths appear ;) - the Freegen lists are like lamps and have illuminated several of my trees.
If only I could find out where the Grimaldes came from originally. Ann Grimalde ca 1771 seems to have been a brick wall for many another and I am left wondering whether some of them changed their names to something more 'English' like Grimwood, Greenwood, Grimer etc. as despite being on IGI back to 16th century in Holbeach the records do not show any continuity and I am wondering if they were recusants.
Best,
Tjapaltjarri
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I have Adelaide Clemence Sylvester marriage to Henry R Shepherd Sep 1913 Bradford. My records say that was the daughter of Adolph Sylvester and Sarah Ann Ellen Jackson. Death Sep 1975
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Hi :)
Only had a quick look in "find my past" newspapers,
but putting in the name Cotnam Townsend gives quite a few hits.
Eilleen.
ASSIZE INTELLIGENCE.
Shee, Cotnam Townsend, aged 40, house agent and photographer, was indicted for perjury, Doncaster, on 20th Nov., and second indictment also charged him with obtaining false pretences the sum of 81. from Maria White, with intent to defraud her of the same
Stamford Mercury
East Midlands, England
13/04/1866
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Miltonbank
Don't know if you're still looking for Sarah poss Ann Macbeth. I have looked at the Lincs Archives website (Lincs to the Past) and looked at the Baptism records for Welton le Marsh for the period 1850 - 1858 and the only Sarah Ann was a Sarah Ann FROST born to John and Jane Frost of Welton - Father a Labourer Link is http://www.lincstothepast.com/Records/RecordDisplayTranscript.aspx?oid=717845&iid=177746 the other possibility is Sarah Ellen born to John and Ellen Burgess of Welton - Father a Baker
http://www.lincstothepast.com/Records/RecordDisplayTranscript.aspx?oid=717845&iid=177749
Penny
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VERY strange coincidence - when looking at this whilst browsing for Lincoln information I looked at the 1901 census for Sarah Macbeth to try and help and thought the address 34 Vernon Street, Lincoln sounded familiar and when looking at my Tree I saw my paternal Great Grandfather was living at that address with his daughter and son in law when he died in 1947
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Wahey,
I have an interest in this thread. My daughter-in-law recently produced us a grandson and inter alia it came up that his other grandfather on his mother's side had the unusial middle name of grimalde.
So after a day or two of fossicking as to where this might have originated I came to John Usher marrying Sarah Ann Farmer in 1875. Sarah Ann Farmer had two brothers named Grimalde Farmer who both died in infancy. So some progress.
Sarah Anne's mum was Elizabeth Townsend b Holbeach ca 1831/2. She I think had two brothers Cotnam Townsend b Whaplode ca 1825/6 and Grimalde Townsend, christened Holbeach 1833. I suspect that they shared common parents in George & Sarah (Fields) Townsend.
On the 1841 census, Cotnam, it seems to me appears on the same page as his grandfather, Cotnam Fields as an apprentice newspaper printer and editor, in Holbeach under the name of Thomas Townsend - a common foible amongst the young who shun the unusual names foisted on them by their parents :-). Grimalde Usher was no different - went by the name of James!
Sarah Fields was the daughter of Cotnam Fields and Ann Grimalde who married in Holbeach ca 1794 :D
So someone, somewhere on ancestry has either surmised the same as I about Cotnam Townsend's origins or sought the original parish records for Whaplode but they also give George and Sarah (Fields) as his parents.
HTH,
Howdie (in the chatroom)
Hi
I know this an old posting but if there are any of Cotnam Townsend descendants out their I have a old Victorian Family photo album given to William Cotnam Boyes on his tenth birthday which was 29th August 1885. It has many family portraits and some early ones taken by Cotnam Townsend when he was working as a professional photographer in Doncaster. Be glad to share the details with any descendants and it would be good to identify those in the album.
Steve
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hi Steve, I got your post as I put on the original one re 34 Vernon Street, Lincoln. I'm sure you're aware but just in case Lincs Archives have digitalized many of the original Lincolnshire parish records. You can view them on their website Lincs to the Past http://www.lincstothepast.com/advanced-search/ to access them on the advanced search page enter the name of the parish in the Exact phrase box followed by the word PAR and search. That will bring up a list of the records they hold for that particular parish, the onews you can view have a little photo icon at the side
Regards
Penny