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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Caernarvonshire => Topic started by: Judmarg on Wednesday 30 May 07 14:48 BST (UK)
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I have traced my grandmothers family back to the Morris family, near Tregarth living at Ty'n y caeau--I have recently visited there but want more onfo about the Morris family before 1798--are they from anglesey.
William Morris was an elder at the chapel in tregarth,but I can not find the name of it .
anyone related to the Morris family of llanllechid/Tregarth etc????
Part of the Morris family also emigrated to America, my gran did ,she married an Evans and then settled back in Pwllheli in 1922,where my dad was born.
Any info on William Morris will be galdly received.
thanks
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Hi judmarg,
The chapel could be Shiloh chapel - still in use. Know a little about it.
Regards
Quarryman
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thanks for getting back to me,re the chapel.
What do you know about it?
Have they any information there about the elders etc,around 1890?
I believe William Morris was buried in the St marys church,Gelli, but I am not sure of the date--before the 1891 census.
I am trying to trace his mother and father as he was born about 1790.
many of the Morris family originally came from Anglesey?
Thanks again
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Hi Judmarg,
Shiloh chapel was built in 1829. There was another chapel, Penygroes chapel, in Tregarth, but this was demolished in the late 1900s.
Gelli churchyard is a little distance from Tregarth, but seems to have (and still is) the 'local' burial ground - I have ancestors buried there.
Will do a little digging re-William Morris.
Regards
Quarryman
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thanks for that info,
With regards to William Morris his daughter married an Owen,I believe these are the first to take the tenancy and purchase Ty'n y caeau off the Penryn estate in 1910's.Then the next daughter married a Williams.
I went to see the owner of the farm in May,and she was very nice indeed. They bought the farm 18 yrs ago.
I would think there are other people around that area in the family,but I have not researched'outwards' yet.
One of their children was called William Morris Williams ,I believe froma census.
I would be appreciative of any info.
Thanks
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The Cemetary and small church near to Shiloh Methodist Church is called St. Mary's. Is the Gelli Church Yard the one on the way to Rachub (Coetmor Road).
Took some photos today but the heavens opened and I had to make a dive for the car before I could have a proper look round.
http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/album/559507088BtrPih
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thanks for that,
I will use wha I can-
I hope I may be able to come up again when I have found more details about the family.
I am going to make a visit to Aberystwyth for more research when I can.
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I looked on the "Find a Church" and Shiloh is listed but there are no contact details See http://www.findachurch.co.uk/search/multi_search.php?mapchange=true&map=sh66
I'll check their notice board next time I pass
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One of those photos I took had the notice board in it and it shows the Minister as being :
Gwynfor Williams, Drws y Llan, Campbell Road, Caernarfon
Tel 01286 673490
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Hi Just come across this post as I've just joined Roots chat.
Believe William & Mary Morris are my gt. gt. gt. grandparents. My gt grandmother was Ellen or Elin Morris born abt 1840 parents William & Elin Morris. On 1851 census living Llandegai Tyn y Caeau. Only trouble is not listed with William & Mary, they are a couple of places up. Have looked on old maps & only one tyn y caeau, so why not next to each other on census? mystery. Would love to chat to you
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thanks for replying--
my grandmothers name was Jennie Morris,[she married an Evans from llanrwst]
her father was Elias Morris[who for a time had gone to America, and came back] and his father was David Morris, he had moved to Pwllheli, but who had originated from Tyn y caeau llanllechid ---son of William Morris.
I believe there was a sister Elin Morris .[ A common name at this time.There was a couple 0f William morris's though.]
I will look at my notes again and see if i can find a Elin. have you any dates of the names??Did they stay in that area.
I was trying to find out if the Morris family had originated from Anglesey.
let me know any info you have.
thanks
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Hi Judmarg give me a minute & I'll get details
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Hi Family on 1851 census
393 Tyn y Caeau Morris William Head M 33 Clerk CAE
393 Tyn y Caeau Morris Ellin Wife M 30 CAE
393 Tyn y Caeau Morris Ellin Daughter U 11 Scholar CAE
393 Tyn y Caeau Morris William Son U 7 Scholar CAE
393 Tyn y Caeau Morris John Son U 5 Scholar CAE
393 Tyn y Caeau Morris David Son U 3 CAE
393 Tyn y Caeau Morris Morris Son U 6m CAE
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My gt grandmother Ellen somehow went to Rochdale where she married Joseph Midgley & my grandmother Jane was born. However by 1881 they had moved back to Llanllechid Wales. Where my grandmother later married Jeremiah Williams. The William Morris Williams rings a bell somewhere. Think he only lived a few doors away on 1881 census, not sure will have to check. Have also been in touch with people who now own farm. They say they have a plaque on wall about William & Mary did you see it.
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thanks for replying,
Yes I have also visited the farm,and saw the slate plaque.it is lovely---If you can look at the 1851 census say in Ancestry ,it will give you all the family--
On ancestry they call this under LLandegai--[which i think is with llanllechid]
William Morris born 1781 age 70 farmer
married to Mary Morris born 1788 age 63 farmers wife
son David Morris b 1823 age 28
gson david morris age 3-- -[This is my GGG grandfather]
daughter Murry[mary] morris b 1825 age 26 un
Ellin Morris age 30
William morris head age 33 It does not say if this is the son]
William morris age 7
john Morris son age 5
Morris morris age 3
William morris age 25 son [quarryman]
William owens [stepson]
Ellin owens[steps sons wife]b 1815 age36
Perhaps if you could look up some birth certificates it will tell you if they are directly in line.
let me know if you trace any more back.
thanks
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hi again,
i just looked up the 1901 --
William williams age 50
Ellen williams 45
William Morris williams age 16
also the 1881 census at tyn y Caeae---llandegai---
Ellen owen age 25 born at tyn y Caeaeu
I think the Ellen here is the daughter of the daughter who married an William Owen
no children
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Hi Judmarg
I don't know where you have got you info from but there seems to be some confustion. I have access to ancestery & have images of 1851 census Landegai. There are two familes living at tyn y caeau. one is on page 8 of 11 which is my family & yours if David Morris aged 3 is your g g g grandfather. see below
Tyn y Caeau Morris William Head M 33 Clerk CAE
Tyn y Caeau Morris Ellin Wife M 30 CAE
Tyn y Caeau Morris Ellin Daughter U 11 Scholar CAE
Tyn y Caeau Morris William Son U 7 Scholar CAE
Tyn y Caeau Morris John Son U 5 Scholar CAE
Tyn y Caeau Morris David Son U 3 CAE
Tyn y Caeau Morris Morris Son U 6m CAE
And on page 10 of 11 there is this family which I believe is headed by the parents of William Morris from first family. Always been a mystery to me why they are not next to each other on census.
Tyn y Caeau Morris William Head M 70 Farmer CAE
Tyn y Caeau Morris Mary Wife M 63 CAE
Tyn y Caeau Morris David Son U 28 Farm Worker CAE
Tyn y Caeau Morris Mary Daughter U 26 Farm Worker CAE
Tyn y Caeau Owens William son in law M 37 Quarryman CAE
Tyn y Caeau Owens Ellin son in law Wife M 36 CAE
Tyn y Caeau Jones John Nephew U 26 CAE
Tyn y Caeau Evans Henry Servant U 78 Agric Labourer AGY
Tyn y Caeau Jones William Servant U 17 Agric Labourer CAE
Tyn y Caeau Jones Hugh Servant U 23 Agric Labourer CAE
Tyn y Caeau Thomas Richard Servant U 21 Agric Labourer AGY
Tyn y Caeau Owens Margaret Servant U 22 House Servant CAE
You seem to have both families mixed up.
Did David Morris on 1881 census live at Gray st Llanllechid?
Best regards
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Hi
by the way Llandegai is a village that comes under district Llanllechid which comes under Bangor to me very confusing.
Are you aware of the website www.genuki.org.uk
Tells you all about the village & also has transcript of 1851 census.
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Hi thanks for that,
I had really traced the 1901 census for Tyn y caeaeu--as I still wanted to find out who lived at the farm in 1901. It was a tenancy from the Penrith estate.
In 1851 as you say there were a lot of the''morris'' family living there. On the farm you can see that there are 2 small cottages behind the main house.
In [I think about 1925's---the estate sold the farm --I think to the Owen's, as my family had gone to Pwllheli and America by then.
I think it was sold again in 2003.
My main reason for finding more about the Willaim Morris born ab 1790's was where he came from--------He had put llandegai on the census,but that was in Bangor then
and it is difficult to trace the chapel where he was baptized--but I will keep on trying.
A lot of Morris's had originated from Anglesey. I will keep looking.
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To put some info on the reason why William Morris registered in Llandegai on the census records - Tregarth being west of the River Ogwen is in Llandegai parish. Bethesda on the other side of the river is in Llanllechid parish. It can be very confusing if you do not have the exact place of birth - I didn't on a few of my ancestors for a while!
Tregarth was on land owned by Penrhyn for quarryman for the slate quarry - a lot of the buildings were built by him to house his workers.
The estate papers for Penrhyn prior to the sale of land in the early C20th are held at the University of Bangor - they may have some information on the house that you are interested in, through rentals maybe?
Good Hunting
Mair
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Thanks for the info Mair. Judmarg not to clear on how he related to family at tyn n caeau. William & Elin or William & Mary. If he is going off 1851 census then his David is my gt grandmothers brother. Seems big conicident if two families not related. I just can't kind out why they are not next to each other on census. If you look at age of William & Mary would make sense they had older children with older son probable named William.
Washy
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Washy
Could be the way the enumerator collected/completed the forms on his "rounds"
Looking at that stretch of 1851 census the enumerator seems to have split other "houses" up too. There were often a few families living under what we know today as one house. Looking even at the modern map - there is a long track to the homestead and there are dwellings at either side of the road.
Just a thought.....but we have to think away from exact science here as our census records today are collected in a completely different way to 160 years ago.
Mair
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I agree with Mair about the enumerators methods having experienced problems finding my ancestors. I had two families living in the same street and living in houses next to each other but they were not together in the census. The 1841 census for Bangor, Gwynedd is even more in disarray.
Maybe the enumerator arrived at Tynycaeau very early in the morning and only one family were in and he had to come back late afternoon after visiting other houses and he entered them in the order he picked them up.
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Hi all,
I can see the points made by you all, the David Morris who seems to be the son born in 1823 son of William Morris and Mary Morris--- that was the line to my gran, my gggrandfather had moved to Pwllheli with wife before his sister Ellen married at the farm. According to records yes William Morris was born at llanllechid[Llanllechyd in welsh]
re; David morris 1823 had son Elias Morris born 1866---who had my gran Jennie Morris in 1896. yes it seems that we are related in a distant past.
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Yes I agree I should have put William Morris living at llandegai, but born[1781] in llancheyd ---sorry for confusion-----
In the 1841 census [Parish of llandegai]----------they spell names the welsh way-----William Mores age 60 but only say born in county ,later on he says he was born at llanllechyd [still at Tyn y Caeau] farmer also living at this address is Morris Owens age 30 and family.and William williams age 20 with Ellinor age 20and family.
how the Morris family camre into Llanllechyd I still need to find out.
Thanks
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Hi All
Thanks, becoming a little clearer now. As you suspect not an expert at this. Thought David was one aged 3 on 1851 census with my family, hoped for help finding them on 1841 census. Have ancestry site but as I say not expert couldn't even find tyn n caeau :-[ Would appreciated any help with this.
Best regards
Washy
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Hi, Because there are so many people with the same name, you need to link the name to the birth date and where they were born, especially when they are a common name. The 1841 census only states the area--ie Caernarvonshire. the farm has about 3 cottages and main house.
Ty,n y caeau is a farm near Tregarth, actually Moel y ci now, the cooperative centre.
You will find it under Moel y ci on the website. It is on the map.
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Hi All
Been able to find farm on 1841 census thanks to you telling me William Mores. :) On farm as you said on earlier reply a William Williams & Elinor Williams but also Elinor Williams aged 1. I think this is my family & the censor has writen down wrong name. Been looking a long time for them & nowhere to be found in Caernarvon. I think this must be them. What do you think.
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I can not tell you if this is yours- are you sure of their births--
-the only way would be to hunt re Ancestry or go to the Caernarvon records office.You would be able to get a birth cert or trace chapel for baptism in Tregarth.
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Washy
re the wrong name - NOT necessarily. Patronymics may play a part here. Now then this means a totally different slant on things.
NB Anyone more "in the know" shout out please! if I get this wrong.
Here we go......possibly William Williams is the son of William "Something" but he takes his fathers first name as his surname. He just happens to be called william after his father of course so he becomes not William "Something" jnr ..................but William Williams (the "S" indicating son of replacing the old Welsh of "ap") ie William ap William!!! right......so then he decides to declare this as his name in 1841 and then in 1851 to say - hang on my fathers last name was Morris/Mores/Maurice of course and decides THEN to declare his lineage as we do today, by taking our fathers' surname - in the main of course- as our last name.
The reason why I think patronymics...... is by looking at the 1851 entries and seeing how repetitive certain first names are for the first born second born etc.
Have a look-up on patronymics - it can and still does blow your mind sometimes! ;D
Mair
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Hi Mair
Thanks for that ;D did I mention not expert. Funnily enough I understand what you mean, however thought that kind of thing only happened hundreds of years ago when people only had first name. Only way going to prove if William was William & Mary's son is to find Church records, probable Shiloh. Does anyone know where I'd find them? Tried to find Bangor & Carnarvon BMD/records office last night on net & is it me is there one, couldn't find one. Found Anglesey seems very helpful are they there. Remember something about Bangor University, can you conntact them or are you allowed to research there. My family didn't make it easy for me to trace ::) Thanks for help really appreciate it
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Hi Mair
Thanks for that ;D did I mention not expert. Funnily enough I understand what you mean, however thought that kind of thing only happened hundreds of years ago when people only had first name. Only way going to prove if William was William & Mary's son is to find Church records, probable Shiloh. Does anyone know where I'd find them? Tried to find Bangor & Carnarvon BMD/records office last night on net & is it me is there one, couldn't find one. Found Anglesey seems very helpful are they there. Remember something about Bangor University, can you conntact them or are you allowed to research there. My family didn't make it easy for me to trace ::) Thanks for help really appreciate it
Ok there is a hotch potch of information out there but you must remember that BMD was not a legal requirement until 1875 and it had started back in 1837 - so that was nearly 40 years worth of incomplete records. www.freebmd.org.uk
Parish churches were required to record baptisms and marriages and burials but the non conformists were not really and there are some chapels with great records and some with not so great. The National Archives state that Gwynedd archives have the Shiloh records from 1857 - 1986.
Also at the Records office in Caernarfon will be the Penrhyn estate papers BUT the leases are held at Bangor University Archives. which may have to whom and for how much the farm was leased for from the Penrhyn estate.
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk (search on the site for Penrhyn)
As to the patronymic thing - well - until my ggggrandfathers death in 1850 his son was known as John Thomas and is recorded as such in the 1841 census and then in the 1851 census is suddenly John Rowlands again.......thankfully he was at the same farm! However his cousins from the Rowlands line (ie in todays society they should be Rowlands) we have Jones, Davies, Roberts and Williams from Beddgelert to Llanberis and the Llyn - following them during the "change of name" was a nightmare! Thanks to John, David, Robert, William and Thomas Rowland -5 Rowland's brothers back in the early C19th century we ended up with 5 surnames in the late C19th onwards. :o
The search for family continues ;D ;D
I hope you gain as much from your search as I did and do from mine.
Mair
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I'm a little wiser now thanks to you Mair. At least now I have a direction in which to search. Good luck in your search, hope someone is as helpful to you as you have been to me.
Best regards
Washy
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Washy
I am always searching - one just never knows - it's that that drives most of us on here onward and upward - or is that backwards ;D
May i suggest, if you haven't done so already, go to the online catalogue of the gwynedd archives......even if you dont find any of your kith and kin it gives an absoutley fantastic insight into the gentry and the more lowly beings! You get a feel for the life and laws that were lived with...it is an insight.
Good Hunting - and you know where we are should you need any assistance in your quest.
Mair
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Some links that will help ....
Bangor Register Office, Town Hall, Bangor, Gwynedd, LL57 2RE
http://www.archivesnetworkwales.info/cgi-bin/anw/name_search?id=6207&acc_type=3
I've lost the address and phone No. for the Shiloh minister, will pop round to the Chapel now and have another look at it and post it here later ::)
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Hi Welshgen Thanks for info. There are a few possibles for my gt grandmothers birth, a little confusion as to her exact age. 1839-41 & if she was registered Ellin Eleanor or Ellen. Everything seems to point to Dec 1840 but then found her death Nov 1929 says 89, but on grave says 90. Always says Llandegai as birth place on census so am I right her cert would be under Bangor & Carnarvon not Carnarvon. On marriage cert says age 28yrs May 1869. On census age 1901 60, 1891 50, etc. but on earlier say 11, 21 etc. This is driving me to distraction. ::) :'(
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Y Gweinidog /The Minister for Shiloh ....
Y Parch (The Rev.) Gwynfor Williams
Drws Y Llan, Cambell Road, Caernarfon (no post code :-\)
Tel. 01286 673490
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Hi Thanks for that. I will contact him to see if he can help. Hope he doesn't mind
Washy
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Washy
AHA! You have viewed the gravestone then - go off those details.
I will bet my last pound that the translation (if in Welsh) says "in her 90th year" which means she was 89 !
Death cert will be Bangor Civil district. Parish/ecclesiastical district for any church records would be Llandegai!!!!
The later census records asked for "age LAST birthday" hence the year difference so she was born after 5th April (1891 was the 5th April the latest date the census over the 3 was taken - for ref:- 1881 was 3rd April and 1901 was 31st March)
(eg my grandmother in the 1901 census is recorded as being 12 years of age - so one automatically thinks she was born in 1889 - no wrong; she was born in 1888. Her age "last birthday" on 26th April 1900 was 12 - she was just 26 days away from becoming a teenager!)
In 1851 61 and 71 it just asked for age - and the Welsh tradition in North Wales at least was to give the year the person was living in as on the gravestone example above so she could well have been 10 in 1851 living in her 11th year etc etc - so this too would point to 1840 for her birth year and the gravestone would back that up.
Her marriage cert - well that might depend on the age of her husband......at that time age difference meant quite a lot and so did the actual marrying age of a woman. These factors too must be considered.
Mair
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MAIR !! Are you saying women lied about their ages that long ago, well really :P
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NO, I am saying that society brought pressure to bear on them and whereas today there are solutions then there were not...........
and we ladies do not lie - we just do not believe in inflation!
;D
Mair
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Well that makes sense. She would have lied about her age as she was around 10 years older than gt granddad. :) He says 21 on cert but was only abt 19 can't tell exactly as he lied on every census. Just goes to show it's not just us women ;D
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Well wot yer know!
Glad the "theory" fits in - this is where the hunches start to play a part.
Mair
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Been on free bmd looks like only one likely candidate. Will send for it & keep my fingers crossed. :) Then go after the rest of family.