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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: MikeGH on Friday 25 May 07 16:14 BST (UK)
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Hi Everybody,
I am desperately searching for Thomas Crook / Crooks a Tailor by trade. In the 1845 William Directory for Bolton it shows him in Old Hall Street, Bolton.
BUT - he cannot be found in any census, BMD etc! His Daughter was Harriet born 1848 - 1849 in Bolton according to the '71 & '81 Census, but she cannot be found in the '51 or '61 census either!
I'm sure that SOME genius out there must have a brilliant idea and be able to find him.
Good hunting - and many thanks for looking.
Mike
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I'm not going to be any help to you Mike. I was going to post a similar query. My GGt grandfather cant be found anywhere either before his marriage in 1867. I've got the cert for that. It gives his fathers name and occupation and its not down as him being deceased, but I cant find him on the BMD or the census before 1871 after his marriage. I've looked for the parish records for St Peters church- Liverpool (where he married in case he was baptized there and St Martin in the field ones as his wife came from around there and I thought he might have lived in that area as well but up to now no joy. He's in the 1870 directory but no earlier ones. His father is no where to be found on anything I've looked at.
So if anybody can help Mike as well as me I at least would be very grateful
Pesky rellies!!!!
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Do you know roughly when Thomas was born? That would help with searching the census. The other thing to try would be looking for other members of the family - do you have any names, ages that will help people here look for them?
Have you tried possible mistranscriptions (either by the original enumerators or in modern times) - Cook, Crock, Cock, Crool, Croot, Croak, anything else you can think of etc.?
Have you got the daughter's birth certificate? That will give you the mother's name if you don't already have it. Then you could try to find the marriage record by looking for her.
The final resort would be searching by first name. E.g. he might be lodging with someone and been given a ditto as a surname by accident, rather than his real surname.
Another final resort, which you may have already done, is to wade through the census, district by district on something like ancestry or findmy past, where you can view the original pages.
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Hi Aulus,
Thanks, but I've tried just about everything you mention and if I tear any more hair out I'll be down to my toenails!
I know NOTHING else on Thomas or his Wife at all!
No - I cannot find the Daughter's Birth cert which is waht I'd really love. Her Marriage Cert is all I have and that says Father is Thomas Crook, Tailor (no mention of deceased).
BUT - her childrens Birth certificates actually give THREE different names for their Mother Harriet, Crook, Crookson & Noble.
I've tried the route of maybe a prvious marrige - no success.
I've just manually trawled the 1851 Census sheets for Old Hall St. Bolton - No Thomas Crook Tailor listed, so either moved or died (11 deaths in the time). Maybe he didn't live there but had a shop there in 1845?
Over the weekend I'll try the same exercise in the 1841 but who knows how successful that will be. I've already looked in the census at every Thomas Crook - NONE are Tailors!
Mike
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Hi Mike,
I have looked at the 1841 for Old Hall Street and can`t see a Thomas either. The reference numbers are HO107/535/9 Folios 24, 28 - 33.
What was her address on the marriage certificate? O.K. I know it is in-between the censuses but I`ll check it out (even if its Yorkshire!).
Regards,
Mo
P.S. where is she on the 71 & 81 census?
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Hi Mike
Can you give us the references for the later censuses that you have found?
Is this the same Harriet CROOKS you asked about on an earlier thread? And did she marry William ATKINSON?
What exactly does it say on her children's birth certificates?
kind regards, Arranroots ;)
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Hi everyone,
Many thanks for all the interest!
Yes - this is the same Harriet Crooks I have been chasing for a while now. Many thanks for the info on the '41, saved me a lot of searching!
She is my 2nd Great Grandmother and married Joseph James Woods 7th Oct. 1867, but even that got VERY difficult as they have him down as John James on the Marriage Certificate - but luckily we were able to 99% prove that this is the right person.
I'm setting out below every single fact that I have on her;-
7 Oct. 1867 - Marriage Certificate, Age 18, Residence = Greater Bolton, Father = Thomas Crook, Tailor. Earliest DoB = Oct 1848, latest DoB = Oct 1849.
1871 Census, 2 April - age 22, born in Bolton. Earliest DoB = 3 April 1848, latest DoB = 2 April 1849.
1881 Census, 3 April - age 31, born in Bolton. Earliest DoB = 2 April 1849, latest DoB = 3 April 1850.
Died March Qtr 1889 age 40. Earliest DoB = 15 Dec 1847, latest DoB = March 1849.
Ages at Death are very suspect, for instance Joseph James Woods age at death was misstated by 2 years.
Based on above earliest DoB = Dec 1847, latest DoB = April 1850, but most likely 1848/9.
1st Child - Ellinor, 19/9/1868, Mother (registered the birth) named as Harriet Crook, 1 Blackshaw Lane, Bolton.
2nd Child - Sarah, 2/6/1870, Mother (registered the birth) named as Harriet Noble, 43 Commission St. Bolton.
4th Child - Annie, 27/10/1873, Mother named as Harriet Crookson, 23 Mill St. Bolton, (Joseph James Woods the Father registered this birth). [This is my Great Grandmaother]
5th child - Lawrence, 10/6/1875, Mother (registered the birth) named as Harriet Noble, 23 Mill St. Bolton,
Of the 4 Birth Certificates obtained 3 were registered by Harriet herself, once she stated her Maiden Name as Crook, the same as on the Marriage Certificate, twice she claimed to have been Harriet Noble.
On the one birth registered by the Father she was called Crookson.
there are 4 more children but I saw no point in getting these extra certificates.
As I said at the beginning of this thread, an extremely supportive researcher has found one reference to a Thomas Crook, Tailor in Old Hall Street, Bolton in an 1845 Directory. But that is all.
We've looked at all combinations of theories about this being a second marriage, or her Mother marrying / remarrying to explain the Crook(son) / Noble confusion but have been unable to find any rational explanation.
Joseph James Woods Grandmother was an Ellen as were several of that side of the family so it is certainly possible that that is where the Ellinor, (known as Ellen in the '71 & '81 census) came from.
Sorry to be so long winded - but that really is all I can tell you good people!
Many thanks for your thoughts,
Mike
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Dear Mike
Would it be worth putting a message on the Bolton Revisited website -
www.boltonrevisited.org.uk ?
A lady is researching O'Neil and McPhillips families one of whom married a Mary Ann NOBLE in 1881.
May be a long shot but perhaps she could help with the NOBLE mystery.
Best of luck - it's a fascinating (if frustrating!) story.
Maria
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Thanks Maria - I don't think I knew of this siet - there are just so many!!
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Mike
Are there any other clues on Harriet's marriage certificate? Witnesses perhaps?
Isobel
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PS Just to throw another thought into the system. I have one ancestor who was married 3 times. On her first certificate she was listed as spinster (correctly I presume) with her correct father. Her second certificate was consistent - widow now, with the same father.
On her 3rd however she was listed as spinster and her father was given as the father of her 2nd husband!!
Isobel
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Thanks Isobel - I really feel encouraged by that!!!
Mind you - I alos had one that threw me for a long time when it turned out she was married, widowed and remarried in under 18 months!
I thought that was good going even by the standard of some of todays so called celebrities.
Sorrry - Re Harriet's Mariage Certificate - the witnesses actually enabled me to fully identify her Husband and his family which had been another absolute horror story - born illegitimate in Chorley Workhouse.
He was also totally absent from the '51 & '61 census. LUCKILY his married sister was a witness which led me to his Mother and Step Father and so to him living under his step fathers name until he married - we MAY have the same scenario here!
His Mother married within 3 months of his birth to someone else in the workhouse so I am ASSUMING this was his natural Father.
Mike