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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: leaf on Tuesday 15 May 07 12:59 BST (UK)
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Hi Cougar,
I hope your kind offer of look ups still stands. :)
I am looking for ELIZABETH JANE STUTTLE, I have seen the surname written as Stuttels once, and she went by the name of Jane on all the census entries I've found and on her daughters birth certificate. Her father was William Stuttle. From her marriage certificate she was born in 1854, the 1881 census gives a year of birth as 1855 in Bow, Essex, 1891 states born in 1856 in Bow, London and in 1901 her year of birth 1857 in Colechester (as spelt) Essex. So she's got younger as she's aged! I'm hoping the family were in Southwark in 1861. Her father's occupation is listed as Ships Carpenter.
The details of the census entries I have found are in the common room, under Colonies, name changes and prison.
I am also looking for her husbands family. He was ARTHUR WILLIAM LAWRENCE, sometimes known as William. Date of birth again varies but not as much, (the place of birth does though ??? ). Year of birth 1849 on marriage certificate, born 1851 Kensington, Middlesex (1881 census), 1849 Battersea, London (1891 census) and 1851 born in Yorkshire (1901 census). He was a file maker/file cutter. His father was William Lawrence and he was a Commercial Traveller. On Arthur William's marriage certificate his father was a witness along with Ellen Lawrence, so this could possibly be his mother or sister.
If you or anyone else could help me out with this or suggest what I should do next I'd be very grateful.
Thank you, leaf
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Hello Leaf
ARTHUR WILLIAM LAWRENCE appears to have been born in the June qtr of 1849 within the registration district of London............St Mary Le Bow (near St Pauls Cathedral) is part of that registration district!..............if you obtained that cert life would be much easier.........£7-00 online it will reveal where they lived at the time, mothers name and maiden name as well as father and his occupation...it will also give you who registered the birth although generally it is the mother!
In saying the above...........here they are in 1861!
1861
14 BEAUFORT STREET, CHELSEA, MIDDX
WILLIAM LAWRENCE HEAD 46 COMM TRAVELLER IN STEEL SHEFFIELD, YORKSHIRE
ELLEN " WIFE 38 "
HENRY " SON 19 "
MARY C " DAUR 17 "
ARTHUR W " SON 11 CITY OF LONDON
LILLIAN H " DAUR 9 "
FREDERICK AY " SON 7 CHELSEA, MIDDX
AGNES " DAUR 5 "
FRANK L " SON 1 "
----------------------
Bryant
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Hello Bryant,
Thank you for that wonderful information :) Lots more family members too. It explains the Yorkshire place of birth recorded in 1901 also. I will order the birth certificate also to get Ellen's maiden name.
Once again thank you for your time and for helping me. It's greatly appreciated. leaf
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No probs...
here he is in.............
1841
WENTWORTH TERRACE, NETHER HALLAM, SHEFFIELD, YORKSHIRE
WILLIAM LAWRENCE 25 ? MAKER Y (BORN YORKSHIRE)
ELLEN " 20 Y
MARTHA BAILEY 20 F.S Y
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*1841 rule would normally apply ie 20-24=20, 25-29=25 etc although in Ellen's case being a lady the reverse seems to be applied!
Bryant
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Thank you once again Bryant :D. That is so kind of you. I'm probably being a bit dim but I can't think what F.S could be ??? I think I may have found a marriage for them, if Ellen's maiden name was Turner (will have to wait for the birth certificate) Oct-Dec 1840 in the Sheffield district.
leaf
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f.s = female servant............m.s = male servant
I have a feeling this is your family but needs more work!
1861
1 SAMUEL STREET, LIMEHOUSE, TOWER HAMLETS, MIDDX
WILLIAM STUTTLE HEAD 43 MASTER CARPENTER EMPLOYING 6 MEN COLCHESTER
SUSANNAH " WIFE 39 LIMEHOUSE, MIDDX
WILLIAM " SON 16 ARCHITECTS CLERK RATCLIFFE, MIDDX
SUSANNAH A " DAUR 15 LIMEHOUSE
EMMA " " 12 RATCLIFFE
PAUL H " SON 9 LIMEHOUSE
BENJAMIN " " 4 "
HERBERT E " " 1 "
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and their is a good chance that this William is connected...?
1861
ARTILLERY STREET, ST LEONARD, COLCHESTER, ESSEX
WILLIAM STUTTLE HEAD 57 SHIPWRIGHT COLCHESTER
SARAH " WIFE 55 "
WESTOBY " SON 20 SEAMAN M.S "
SAMUEL " " 16 COOPER "
WILLIAM " " 14 SHIP CARPENTERS BOY "
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next door lives
ANN SHUTTLE (UNM) 62 SUPPORTED BY CHARITY COLCHESTER
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you would have noticed by now that their is a distinct lack of an ELIZA JANE SHUTTLE...........although I do see a JANE E STUTTLE in 1871 (aged 8 which throws a wobbly on findings thus far!) as per below and once again.............is this family part of the same from Colchester?
1871
14 RICHARD STREET, ST ANN LIMEHOUSE, MIDDX
ROBERT STUTTLE HEAD 49 CARPENTER COLCHESTER
MARIA " WIFE 48 LIMEHOUSE
FREDERICK " SON 20 "
EDWARD " " 17 "
MARIA " DAUR 12 "
JANE E " " 8 "
CHARLOTTE " " 4 "
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Hi again Bryant,
Thank you I'd not seen that before. I've seen d. serv and dom. s.
It is so kind of you to look for the Stuttle family too. I don't think I mentioned that William Stuttle had died by the time Elizabeth Jane got married, 2/6/1875. Maybe she was visiting her grandparents in 1861 if the family you've found is hers. It would make sense with the Colechester and London places of birth recorded for her in the later census I'd managed to find.
The only time I saw Elizabeth Jane Stuttle was on her marriage certificate. Everything else just had Jane Lawrence or Jane Stuttels. Her father's name was definately William and his occupation looks like ship carpenter, but the ship's a bit tricky to read. There seems to be a lot of Colchester Stuttles!
leaf
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That was a slip on my part..........should have read 1871........I found the same family in 1861 and JANE E wasn't there...... as one expected...........so if that is her? she would have been born 1862/1863
? did parents die? and brother's family raised her?
I forgot to mention BOW and LIMEHOUSE border one another in east London and the BOW mentioned here has nothing to do with the St Mary le Bow next door to St Pauls cathedral.................
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Hi Bryant,
Thank you for that extra information. I'm fairly certain the people you've found must be part of her family with the Colchester and Bow/Limehouse connections. I don't think Stuttle is that common a surname? leaf
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Strange............
from the 1871 where Robert Stuttle is the head and Jane E is one of his daughters
I can find Maria aged 12 in 1871........born MARIA REBECCA...STEPNEY...JUN 1858
I can find Charlotte aged 4 in 1871......born CHARLOTTE H.....STEPNEY....JUN 1866
Where is JANE E aged 8 in 1871...........or ELIZABETH J.............freebmd not got there yet?
and no their isn't that many Stuttle's around so a good chance that they are one family...........
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1841
BARRACK STREET, ST LEONARD, COLCHESTER
WILLIAM STUTTLE 35 SHIPWRIGHT Y (BORN ESSEX)
SARAH " 35 Y
SARAH " 13 Y
ELIZABETH " 9 Y
EMILY " 7 Y
HENRY " 5 Y
WESTOBY " 6 MONTHS Y
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1841
HYTHE STREET, ST LEONARD, COLCHESTER
ROBERT STUTTLE 45 SAIL MAKER Y
SARAH " 40 Y
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1841
MALDON LANE, ST MARY AT WALLS, COLCHESTER
ANN STUTTLE 45 Y
ANN " 19 Y
ESTHER " 17 TAILORESS Y
ROBERT " 14 Y
HANNAH " 12 Y
----------------------
You need to look at the IGI's on the LDS site to see if you can link the elders of the family?
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Hi Bryant,
I couldn't find anything for Elizabeth Jane or Jane Stuttle or Stuttels in freebmd, but I missed Arthur William Lawrence too (probably due to my lack of knowledge of London). I don't think it can be the Jane E you've found in 1871 because my Elizabeth Jane Stuttle was married in 1875 and had her first child in 1876.
I've had another look at her marriage certificate again. I hope you can follow this:- At the bottom where it say this marriage was solemnized between us, and their names are written, there is a linedrawn down through Arthurs name toward Elizabeth with a small 25 at the top of it. to the left of the certificate box is written Twenty five and the registrar has initialled it.
Does this mean that Elizabeth Jane was actually 25 when she got married? This would give yet another year of birth for her as 1850 ???
Which fits in with what you have just found out. You're a superstar Bryant :D Thank you so very much.
leaf
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Hi Bryant,
Just thought about it again. The Elizabeth you found, daughter of William in1841 would have been born about 1832. My Elizabeth Jane had her youngest child in 1889 which would have made her 57. I'm certain they are all the same family. Maybe they had two daughters called Elizabeth, which may be why the second one was known by her middle name Jane? I did look on IGI previously. I'm off to try again. Thank you, leaf
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I never believed Elizabeth as in 1841 was yours..........too old by far (or was in those days)
if she was born a Stuttle......she wasn't born Eliza Jane or Jane Eliza.........I can see a SARAH born SARAH ELIZABETH STUTTLE ....DEC 1854....COLCHESTER but looking at the 1861 her father appears to be Robert who is an ale porter!
PARENTS OF ALL BELOW ARE.........WILLIAM & MARY..........ALL CHRISTIANINGS TOOK PLACE AT ST LEONARD, COLCHESTER, ESSEX
THOMAS STUTTLE B.15 SEPT 1781....C.14 OCT 1781
ANN STUTTEL B.29 AUG 1784....C.26 SEPT 1784
SAMUEL GIBSON STUTTLE C.24 OCT 1790
JOHN WITHEY STUTTLE B.31 JAN 1793.....C.10 MAR 1793
ROBERT STUTTLE C.AUG 1795
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PARENTS OF ALL BELOW ARE.........WILLIAM WESTERBY STUTTLE & SARAH..........ALL CHRISTIANINGS TOOK PLACE AT ST LEONARD, COLCHESTER, ESSEX
SARAH ANN STUTTLE C.15 JUNE 1828
*WILLIAM WESTABY STUTTLE C.13 DEC 1829
ELIZABETH EVERITT STUTTLE C.11 DEC 1831
EMILY SOPHIA STUTTLE C.13 AUG 1834
HENRY STUTTLE C.29 NOV 1835
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FATHER OF BELOW IS.........WESTERBY STUTTLE ..........CHRISTIANING TOOK PLACE AT ST LEONARD, COLCHESTER, ESSEX
*WESTABY WILLIAM STUTTLE C.21 NOV 1802
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1841
BARRACK STREET, ST LEONARD, COLCHESTER
*WILLIAM STUTTLE 35 SHIPWRIGHT Y (BORN ESSEX)
SARAH " 35 Y
SARAH " 13 Y
ELIZABETH " 9 Y
EMILY " 7 Y
HENRY " 5 Y
WESTOBY " 6 MONTHS Y
*1841 rule on age applies ie 35-39=35
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Leaf
Methinks you need to revisit that marriage cert..................I may be wrong and probably are? is it possible you may be misreading Jane's surname on that marriage cert? as something is wrong somewhere!
1871
2a BLACKBIRD ALLEY, BETHNAL GREEN, MIDDX
JANE STUTTER HEAD (WID) 54 LAUNDRESS BETHNAL GREEN
JANE " DAUR (UNM) 19 ELASTIC MAKER "
WILLIAM " SON 16 TASSELL MAKER "
SAM WILLIAM " grandson 2 "
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JANE STUTTERS............B.MAR QTR 1852.......BETHNAL GREEN
WILLIAM " ............B.MAR QTR 1855........ "
WILLIAM STUTTURS......B. SEPT 1868............. "
If i'm right? you may have to buy another birth cert
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Hi Bryant,
I just got over excited by the 1841 census you found as it had an Eliza with a father William ::)
Thank you so much for spending time helping me with this. It is really puzzling.
I have the marriage certificate in front of me. It looks as if the registrar filled in all of it as there is no noticable change in handwriting. It is clearly Elizabeth Jane Stuttle both in the name and surname box and on the marriage solemnized line.
On her daughter's (Edith Maria) birth certificate her name is given as Jane Lawrence formerly Stuttels.
What birth certificate do you think I need to buy to clarify things?
Thank you once again for all your efforts. leaf
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Hi Bryant,
I've looked on the marriage index and the only possible I could find between 1835 and 1855 was a William Edward Stutter Jul-Sep 1841 in Bury St. Edmonds Suffolk, a possibilty for his wife includes a Jane Ann Renny.
I suppose it depends if the Jane Stutter(s) you found in Blackbird Alley had a husband called William. leaf
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I looked for Jane and her mother Jane and brother William in the 1861.......but i'm blowed if I could find them
I did find William in the 1881 and low and behold what did he call his first born................is that a pure coincidence? :-\
1881
42 ARUNDEL STREET, LONDON, MIDDLESEX
WILLIAM STUTERS HEAD 26 SILK SPINNER LONDON, MIDDX
SARAH " WIFE 23 "
ELIZABETH J " DAUR 1 "
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when I first looked at the 1871 I thought it read Stuttel and not Stutter......I thought I'd cracked it! and then I went and looked for their births.......
I can't see the 1851..............put a post out for the STUT(T)ER family in 1851 and hope they are married at that time..........looking for JANE STUTTER(S) aged approx 34............she is aged 54 and a widow in 1871 with a daughter Jane born at Bethnal Green in 1852
for me.............the Stuttle family with William's and being carpenters by trade are the right family..............but Jane <> Elizabeth born in the 1850's doesn't add up.......and the Stutter(s) need to be eliminated........ in a friendly sort of way you understand 8)
and hope
Bryant
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Hi Bryant,
I'm sorry it's been so difficult trying to find Elizabeth Jane Stuttle or whatever her name may turn out to be.
I'm not sure about the Stut(t)er(s) could just be a coincidence about the child Elizabeth J.
I've followed your advice about asking for help, so now am hoping that another kind person can help. I totally understand about the friendly elimination :)
I like you am convinced that the Colchester carpenters must be part of the right family.
Thank you once again for all of your help. I'll let you know when Arthur William Lawrence's birth certificate arrives. leaf
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Hi Bryant,
I've just received this morning's post and with it the birth certificate I ordered :)
It was the one for Arthur William Lawrence that you found on the index for me, so thank you so much. The certificate says it's the South West sub district of the City of London. He was born in Bouverie Street, and the next bit is difficult to read looks like Whitehall, then London. His father is William Lawrence and his mother is Ellen formerly Turner so the marriage I found in Sheffield is them , so I'll order that certificate next. William Lawrence's occupation looks like Assist. to a Furnishing Ironmonger.
Thank you once again for your help. leaf
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Question.............where do you go when you are a woman, you are pregnant, your husbands at work and you have a child who is one year old..........and your mum lives just across the river.
they married in 1875.............
1881
23 WARWICK STREET, ST GEORGE THE MARTYR, SOUTHWARK, SURREY
ARTHUR W LAWRENCE HEAD 30 FILE MAKER KENSINGTON, MIDDX
JANE " WIFE 26 BOW, ESSEX
LILLIAN " DAUR 5 SOUTHWARK, SURREY
ARTHUR W " SON 4 KENSINGTON, MIDDX
FREDERICK " " 1 SOUTHWARK, SURREY
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Question.............does Mum live just across the river in 1875........or did they as a family move back to Middx and then back to Surrey again?
Bouverie Street is where the Sun newspaper started life and then they moved to Wapping where all the conflict occurred.........off of Fleet Street..........Fleet Street goes into the Strand...........The Strand goes into Whitehall
So Bouverie Street is within 100 metres of the River Thames and just to the east is St Pauls Cathedral
Bryant
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I have a feeling that this is ARTHUR WILLIAM LAWRENCE in 1871
1871
8 SCHOFIELD ROAD, KINGS ROAD, FULHAM, MIDDX
WILLIAM LARENCE BOARDER (UNM) 20 LABOURER AT GAS WORKS SHEFFIELD, YORKSHIRE
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1871
21 SIMPSON STREET, BATTERSEA, WANDSWORTH, SURREY
WILLIAM LAWRENCE HEAD 59 COMMERCIAL TRAVELLER (iron trade) Sheffield
ELLEN " WIFE 48 "
LILLIAN E " DAUR 19 ASSISTING AT HOME LONDON
FREDERICK A " SON 17 ENGINEERS FITTER CHELSEA, MIDDX
AGNES A " DAUR 15 "
FRANK J " SON 11 "
EDWARD P " " 9 "
EDITH M " DAUR 7 "
HELENA B " " 6 "
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Bryant
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Hi Bryant,
Once again thank you for your wonderful help.
I'm not sure who you are talking about in your questions?
Thank you for the extra information about Bouverie Street, that was really interesting.
The census finds for 1871 were great too, more children I didn't know about. I'm sure that's our Arthur William Lawrence also.
Thank you, leaf
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Leaf
Applying a bit of logic...............also having a daughter who is expecting in a few weeks time who "at times" appears to live back home...........and she takes control of the remote control >:( bless her
I was referring to Jane Lawrence.................she had Lillian in 1875/1876 who was born Southwark............and a year later (1876/1877) she had Arthur William who was born Kensington (1881 census)............Yet Frederick was born 1879/1880 back at Southwark
The question is..............did they move to the other side of the river and then back again..............or did Jane have Arthur William at her mum's house taking Lillian aged 1 with her so that mum could look after them both?
Does Mum live in Bouverie Street in 1875.............?
Bryant
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Hi Bryant,
I thought you were talking about Jane, but as we're not sure who her Mum is yet I wasn't positive.
Congratulations on the impending arrival of a grandchild. I hope you get the remote back soon !
The Lawrence's weren't very accurate at recording when or where they were born the place of birth seems to vary from each census. They did move about a lot. I've got Arthur William living in Chelsea in 1861, Fulham in 1871, then with Jane in Southwark in 1875 and 1881, Whitechapel 1889, Newington 1891 and back in Southwark 1901. Arthur died sometime before May 1909, which is when their daughter Edith got married in Southwark, he could have died in 1904 if they didn't move out of Southwark.
leaf
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Hi Bryant,
I've now got the marriage certificate for William Lawrence and Ellen Turner :)
William Lawrence has an occupation of fender manufacturer (might make sense of the 1841 census?) his father was also William Lawrence, a Bookkeeper and his mother may have been Betsy as she was one of the witnesses.
Ellen's father was called Benjamin Turner and he was a file manufacturer (same as his son-in-law).
They were living in Portmahon, Sheffield when they got married.
leaf
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The marriage cert ............. who was the other witness?
and does it state if BENJAMIN TURNER is deceased?
Betsy is another shortened version of Elizabeth!
1841
ST PHILLIPS ROAD, SHEFFIELD, YORKS
WILLIAM LAWRENCE 64 MERCHANTS CLERK NO (NOT BORN YORKSHIRE)
MARY " 54 YES (BORN YORKSHIRE)
SAMUEL " 30 FENDER MAKER YES
ELIZABETH " 25 YES
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it appears being a witness was the closest Betsy ever got to being married?
1861
8 VICTORIA STREET, KIMBERWORTH, YORKSHIRE (WEST RIDING)
MARY LAWRENCE HEAD 74 (WID) SHEFFIELD
SAMUEL " SON 55 (UNM) BRONZIER "
BETSY " DAUR 40 (UNM) "
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1851 REQUIRED for Leaf PLEASE
Bryant
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Benjamin can be found listed here........
http://www.historicaldirectories.org/hd/findbylocation.asp
go to History and Directory of Sheffield, Rotherham 1833
he is under FILE MANUFACTURERS and you will find him on image 330 of 446
he is on page 318 of the directory
His business/home? address is listed as being 1 MOORFIELDS, SHEFFIELD
Bryant
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Hi Bryant,
You've done it again :D Thank you so much for all of your help with my family.
On William Lawrence and Ellen Turner's marriage certificate there are 2 other witnesses. One is Richard Holland and the other is Mary Ann Malihann (I think that's what the surname says, but I found it difficult to read).
None of the father's were listed as deceased.
I'd never have found Benjamin in that directory, thank you for spending time looking for him. It's greatly appreciated. leaf
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Hello,
I'm after advice on ordering death certificates as I've never ordered one before.
I think I've found Elizabeth Jane Lawrence July-September 1904 Southwark Vol 1d page 95
and
Wiliam Arthur Lawrence October-December 1904 Southwark Vol 1d page 48.
I know they were both alive in 1901 from the census and that Arthur was dead by 1909 when his daughter got married. The witnesses were Frank and Nellie Louisa Lawrence. I knew Frank was her brother and think I've found a marriage January -March 1908 Southwark Vol 1d page 55 that confirms Nellie Louisa was her sister in law.
So my question is which death certificate should I order first?
Thank you, leaf