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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Caithness => Topic started by: merlinnz on Monday 14 May 07 23:27 BST (UK)
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HI all
I am Tracey MacLeod, from New Zealand and have been slowly trying to piece together my father's ancestry.
I have gone back to John McLeod who married Christian Sutherland on May 5 1822. The 1841 census shows several childrena dn I understand that there may be older ones, not shown, because they would not have been dwelling with their parents. However, I cannot make out all the names.
I think I have made out
Mary
Esther
Jas (James)
Jannet (named for an aunt )
Farquhar (my direct descendant)
Is there a way I can post/email my document for people to scrutinise to make out the names?
Many thanks for any help
Tracey
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Hello Tracey
Welcome to Rootschat :)
I've PMed you with my e-mail.
Regards
Gadget
added - squinting, the one after Mary looks like William (Wm)
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Thanks so much, William is my best gues, as is Jas (for james).
I notice that mariages around 1822 only show the name sof those getting married, not their parents, was this recorded anywhere else?
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If you've used the Scotlands People records and looked at the original transcript, that is all that there'll be. The Parish records were pretty inconsistent as to what was entered, sadly :(
Gadget
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suspected as much. So I thought I'd try to go back by using the method of naming after parents, so your help with william is appreciated.
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The IGI has:
Halkirk to John and Christian
22 April 1824 Donald
10 Oct 1826 James
8 May 1828 mary
8 JUne 1830 William Malcolm
19 March 1833 Sarah
19 Oct 1839 Farquar
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Thank you so much. I wonder why the record I posted, census shows an esther, or looks like... and Jannet?? Second marriage?
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Names are:
John, 40-44, Ag Lab
Christina, 40-44
Mary, 12
Wm (William), ? 9
Esther, 7 - obviously changed from Sarah!
Jas (James), 5
Jannet, 3
Farquhar, 1
Gadget :)
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thanks for confirming.
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Thank you so much. I wonder why the record I posted, census shows an esther, or looks like... and Jannet?? Second marriage?
Naming conventions were not always followed strictly. My ancestors only followed then losely and I've looked at a number of friends' ancestors up here (Ross and Cromarty and Sutherland/Caithness) where there are deviations. It could be named for someone important in the area or a more distant but favoured relative, etc.
Interesting that the Sarah looks as if she became Esther!
Gadget
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I don't know how else to get further back than trying to use the kids names to try and hook the parents!
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Tracey~
Have you got them on later censuses?
If John and/or Christian died in Scotland after Jan 1855, their parents' names will be on their death certs.
Gadget
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no, can't find them on the 1861 census, will try the death certs. Thanks so much.
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Gadget
Do you subscribe to a particular place to access all this information? I am kee to have as much access as possible online (due to my distance from the source)... what would you recommend?
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I use SCotlands People , the IGI online from www.familysearch.org, the British Isles Vital Records Index (also LDS ) and various local records - info from Genuki www.genuki.org.uk in their specific county/parish pages. Ancestry now has the Scottish census indexes online.
Another source that I find useful for maps and places is Scotlands Family www.scotlandsfamily.com
Pam has also written a guide on the general board here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,24468.0.html
Hope that helps :)
Gadget
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Gadget? Is it possible for someone to die in the 1870's yet not appear in any of the 1851, 1861 or 1871 census?
I have found a death certificate for a john and christian which could match but are in 1879 and 1872
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It's possible that they could or their names might have been misread. Isa it possible for you to let me have a look at the records via the e-mail address or point me in the right direction.
Gadget
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I have sent you an email ( and I am so very grateful for your help in this - I am coming to scotland in april next year for a few days) let me know if it came thru ok.
Is now a good time to mention my mother's name was Baxter and I have traced the baxters back to about 1810 so far! ;D
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Hi
I've had a look at the certs. The main problem is that we have John as an ag lab in 1841, a shepherd in 1859 on Farquar's marriage certificate when he would have been about 59-60 and in 1872, he is a farmer on his wife's death certificate.
I think that there are a few checks that you could do:
Check up on the Christina McLeod whose death cert you have via the 1861-1871 censuses According to the death cert, she was born circa 1798
Also, the informant was a William Williamson, son in law. Did they have any daughter's who could have married him?
It would appear that they were both alive in 1859, so they must be on the census somewhere ???
Gadget
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I have them on the 1851 In Halkirk:
Rumsdale, Halkirk District 37 ED 12 page 3
John, 54, Shepherd, b. Farr, Sutherland
Christina, 52, b. Latheron
Esther, 18
James, 16
Janet, 13
Alexander, 8
Catherine, 5
Gadget
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we found them at the same time... here they are in the 1841 census, perhaps "gunn" is a nephew?
Piece: SCT1841/37 Place: Halkirk -Caithness Enumeration District: 15
Civil Parish: Halkirk Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: -
Folio: 0 Page: 1
Address: Runisdale
Surname First name(s) Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
MACLEOD John M 40 Agricultural Labourer Caithness
MACLEOD Christian F 40 Caithness
MACLEOD Mary F 12 Caithness
MACLEOD Wm. M 9 Caithness
MACLEOD Ellan F 7 Caithness
MACLEOD Jas. M 5 Caithness
MACLEOD Jannet F 3 Caithness
MACLEOD Farquhar M 1 Caithness
GUNN David M 25 Agricultural Labourer Caithness
GUNN Wm. M 20 Agricultural Labourer Caithness
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Yes. The 1841 ones are the ones that you put up last night. The Gunns - from the entry - are a separate household.
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I think we have to be systemmatic with this family:
we have them in 1841
We have them in 1851
We have Farquar's marriage in 1859, when they were still alive.
We now know from the 1851 that John was born circa 1796-7 in Farr and Christina circa1799 in Latheron.
Have you done a thorough search of the 1861 and 1871 with this info?
Gadget
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I have them in 1861 - same place Ref:
37 ED 12 page 6
John, 63, shepherd
Christina, 62
Jessie, 22
Catherine, 15
Catherine Miller, 17, general servant
Christina Ross, 7, granddaughter
Birth info as before.
Gadget
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which site did you find them??
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Any of the sites will find them with this information Ancestry or Scotlands People.
Gadget
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The only one on the 1871 is a Christina, aged 75, a Grocer - not sure it's her, so they might have died between 1861 and 1871.
Gadget
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I've been inputting at freecen and it shows nothing after 1851
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Think it would be worth concentrating on deaths between 1861 and 1871 . i'm sorry that I have to go now for a while - I have to prepare supper.
I'll pop back later to see how you're getting on.
Regards
Gadget :)
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The only John MacLeod who fits died on May 16th 1869, aged 74. Here he is listed as a farmer. His parents were:
Donald Mcleod and Mary McKay.
From the info it looks like the Christina death that you found is probably his wife.
I'll contact you via e-mail.
Gadget
Now, I shall go cook :)
PS - I'd check up on the William Williamson. I think he married one of the daughters and was possibly exaggerating his father in law's occupational status..... or John somehow became a farmer ???
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While my food was cooking, I found that a William Williamson married a Betsy McLeod in 1859, Halkirk.
The GROS ref is 37 Page 4
It might be worth having a look at the certificate.
The only other possible married a Catherine Sutherland, 1863, Latheron - GROS ref - 38 Page 4
Gadget :)
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you are a star. I received the email and I will suss out the williamson connection. I have to get ready for work. Hope your supper was yummy.
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By my information only Janet didn't come to NZ, of the daughters. That would make her most likely to have married our williamson.
(noted your comment regarding the other thread, good idea).
Alexander came here last, perhaps when his parents died and was known as sandy.
So, only Donald and janet remained in Scotland.
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I'm wondering about this 'Betsy', Tracey.If they married in 1859, could she be the Esther?
I'll have a more thorough look.
Gadget
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Yep - it's Betsy - aged what looks like 33 in 1859. Correct parents - John Mcleod and Christina Sutherland -so 1826 birth. Hm are we missing someone - maybe it was Mary ???
The plot thickens.
Gadget
Added - even to the address - Rumsdale - and John being a shepherd :) :) :) :)
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Just checked the 1861 census for the Williamsons:
East Lormsdale 37 6 page 5
William Williamson , 36, farmer of 10 acres, b. Halkirk
Elizabeth, 34, b. Halkirk
Janet Williamson, sister ,24
Alexander McLeod, 18, brother in law
William W Sutherland, 2 month, nephew
Gadget
Added - I think the Sarah -> Esther became Elizabeth or it was Janet :o
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By 1871 William seems to have 100 acres
District 38 Ed 9 page 7
Rangag, Latheron
William, 46, farmer of 100 acres - 29 arable, b. Halkirk
Elizabeth, 44, b. Halkirk
Christina, 6, b. Halkirk
William. 4, b. Latheron
Elizabeth, 1, b. Latheron
William Sutherland, 11, b. Halkirk
Note that this was where Christina Mcleod died.
Gadget
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Turning back to your John M(a)cleod . b.circa 1795, Farr, Sutherland, Parents - Donald McLeod and Mary McKay:
The LDS site is playing up at the moment so I can't find anything on them. However, it is worth your while having a look for children of this pair when things are normal.
Gadget
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Gadget
I cannot thank you enough! I will re-check when everyone is supposed to have come to NZ that should help with the wedding. I got your email but cannot read the wedding certificate.
According to my information Esther didn't marry til she was here and that was to William Sutherland.
Mary was apparently married to Donald Ross, which meas the grandchild (Ross) in one of the ensus was hers?
Catherine married James Taylor, in Scotland and came to NZ in 1886
William married (presumably in Scotland) Barbara McKay
Here's where it gets odd and perhaps Janet (who gets NO mention in our family info) DID become Elizabeth because I found a reference to Elizabeth McLeod (Mrs Williamson) one of the daughters of John and Christuina McLeod "who remained in scotland". Her daughter Christina Campbell, however, once widowed came to NZ to join her relatives in 1910.
So, Janet became Elizabeth??born 1838?
Mary was born 1828
Sarah/Esther 1833?
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I'll resend as Jpg, Tracey.
All the info I have is that Elizabeth was 33 whe she was married in 1859 - i.e b. 1825-26 - and all subsequent censuses confirm this. Maybe she was the 'one that got away'. In1841, she would have been 14 or so, old enough to already be a domestic servant whic is on the marriage cert.
I'll have a lok at the 1841 for her.
Gadget
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There is an interesting entry in 1841
Westerdale Halkirk
Donald George, 70-74
Christina George, 70-74
Christina McLeod, 20-24
Elizabeth Mcleod, 20-24
Chistina and Elizabeth are both servants. There are no others near this. I suppose the age could have been rounded up rather than down :-\
Gadget
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I'm guessing that servants were written in the census by the head or did a visiitng person fill them out? Maybe a man was guessing the age????
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The head of household was supposed to supply the information, so all is possible :)
Gadget
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Well, I think I've found her in 1851 with her two brothers:
Backlass, Halkirk District 37 ED 12 Page 6
William Mcleod, 20, shepherd
Elizabeth, sister, 25
Farquar, 11, brother
Gadget :D
Added:
From the 1851, which I previously found:
Rumsdale, Halkirk District 37 ED 12 page 3
John, 54, Shepherd, b. Farr, Sutherland
Christina, 52, b. Latheron
Esther, 18
James, 16
Janet, 13
Alexander, 8
Catherine, 5
Esther and Janet are at home, so Elizabeth is an elder daughter and not yet discovered in the baptisms.
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Wow, I see. So, as you suspected, she was out of the house by the 1841 census and so flew under our radar...
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Hi again
Just to summarise:
John M(a)cleod b.c. 1796, Farr, Sutherland. Parents - Donald McLeod and Mary McKay. Died 16 May 1869, aged 74.
Christina Sutherland, b.c. 1798, Latheron, Caithness. Parents - William Sutherland, farmer and Catherine Sinclair. Died - 8 July 1872, aged 74.
Married 5 May 1822, Latheron, Caithness
Children:
1824 Donald
1826 James
1827 Elizabeth
1828 Mary
1830 William Malcolm
1833 Sarah ->Esther
1837 Janet (Jessie)
1839 Farquhar
1843 Alexander
1846 Catherine
I remember you saying that the story was that they had 11 children. The above list has 10 - are there any more that you know of. Otherwise, the Christina who was listed with an Elizabeth in 1841 might well be the missing one.
Regards
Gadget
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My info refers to "a family of 11" so I am thinking that means 9 children.
Hope you slept well ;D
Am currently searching out donald and Mary and have a possible marriage 7 april 1786 Reay Caithness. There is another possibility in oct 1799. IF John was born in or about 1796-7 then the later would be ruled out... and if the former is correct, then there are presumably a bunch more siblings of John! Janet gets no mention in the family info I have, so am trying to get hold of an Aunt who supplied this info to me to see if she has anything on Janet.
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I cannot confirm John's birth in Farr, sutherland in or about 1795. Even if he is wrong about his birth place, nothing fits in Sutherland or Caithness for him...
As for Donald mcLeod and Mary MacKay, his parents they dont ever seem to have existed in the records.
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Hi
It's one of those things. Records can be missing, deteriorated, destroyed not entered, etc. We all have these problems. It might be worth contacting some of the local groups listed on these pages:
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/SUT/index.html#Archives
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/CAI/index.html
Good Luck
Gadget
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Thanks for the links. I will contact local groups.
Trace
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Hello
I just found your chat online. I am also a NZ descendent researching this family. I have info I am willing to share. Are you still going to visit this year. I am going to vist Caithness etc in late Aug.
Regards Nilsina
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:o Hello my name is Julie and I'm from Australia
I have just started tracing my mother-in-laws NZ relatives and found this old chat which appears to be connected to her line. Her father was Percy McLeod and his Father: Donald McLeod & Mother: Elizabeth Bradey; Grandfather: Farquhar McLeod & Grandmother: Jane Ogilvie Sutherland; Great Grandfather: John McLeod & Great Grandmother Christina Sutherland.
Could Nilsina and Merlinnz please contact again?
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Hi
You can get me on (*)
I can also put you in touch with Farquar's youngest brother's descendants.
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
New members must make at least three postings before being allowed to use the PM facility.
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Hello
I can recommend that you look on the website www.badbeafamilies.com under Sutherland Diaspora and you will find some helpful information. If you also send a request through the contact link on the Badbea site you will be offered the opportunity to join a group that has a great deal of information on the family line you are researching.
Regards Christina, New Zealand
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Thankyou Tracey & Christina for you quick replies.
I have been a genealogist for over 25 years but the chat sites are a new world for me! As you may have guessed this is my first posting on rootschat and its a bit confronting. I will take up both you suggestions. Cheers
Julie
;D