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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: silver1 on Wednesday 09 May 07 01:50 BST (UK)
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Hi, I'm new to this so bear with me. My grandfather was JOSEPH VICTOR HACKNEY 1916, birth entry was mothers maiden name Hackney (caroline) so I thought it must be illegitimate birth, but then when he marries ELSIE BOOTH (1918) in1934 the marriage certificate states father as Joe Hackney - deceased???(also my grandfather calls himself Joe on the marriage cert instead of Joseph Victor??? ???
His mother Caroline must have married later to someone called Chadwick(death announcement). Possibly he had a sister called Olive and maybe a brother.
???
Also my grandmother Elsie is a bigger mystery as I only have small birth cert, so no idea of mother or father. But birth is listed with Booth as maiden name of mother so again maybe illegitimate birth. But as for where to go from there??? I would appreciate any help in the right direction Thankyou ;)
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Hi
Welcome to rootschat. You need to work out exactly what you have and then look to see if full certificates etc might give you more information. Many people made up a father's name when they married to save face with the new inlaws so Joseph may still be illegitimate. All BMDs are free to search on www.ancestry.co.uk Scroll down on the home page and click the link down on the right hand side. You then have the option to look at the pages from the main GRO index and can search them quarter by quarter. If you find a possible match you can order the certificates online. Once you are back beyond 1901 then census records are available online and there will be many people able and willing to help.
If you give full information about place and date of birth, marriages etc then local rootschatters may be able to help. Do be careful not to give details of living persons though. Who did Elsie give as her father on the marriage certificate? Who were the witnesses? Often relatives so useful clues. Working in the 1900s is hard without buying the certificates but once you get back a bit further it will be much easier.
Andrea
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Hello there and a warm welcome to Rootschat.
Your grandfathers birth reference is Joseph V Hackney born March 1/4 of 1916 in Bramley volume 9b page 411.
The mothers maiden name is indeed Hackney-but don't assume that she wasn't married. Many people around that time had the habit of marrying cousins-my own grandparents did that in 1923.
Although it was,as Andrea says,common for people(if they had been born illegitimately) to invent a fathers name so as not to upset the inlaws ;D
If you need us to find your grandmothers birth reference can you tell us where and exactly when she was born- Booth is quite a common surname.
All the best
Carol
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There are two more births in the same registration district (Bramley) at about the same time, that list Hackney as the mother's maiden name:
Mary O Hackney Mar 1912
Frederick Hackney Mar 1913
There are others in Thorne, but none, in either place, may prove to be connected.
There seems to be a complete absence of Caroline Hackney births between 1880 and 1903; Hackneys who married Carolines at about the right time; or Caroline Hackneys in the 1901 census who might be right.
Joseph's birth certificate seems the next step.
Richard
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Could that Mary O be the OLIVE that Silver mentions- known by her middle name perhaps?
Maybe if they have the habit of using middle names,mum isn't Caroline at all ::)
Carol
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Wow you lot are really fast!!! So here goes:-
I already have Josephs full birth cert. DOB 19.01.16 living @ 12 Bosnia St. Armley. Mother Caroline Hackney. Registered 13.03.16 Registra John H. Bromley.
I have ordered Elsie's full birth cert.
Marriage cert - No father for Elsie, just a line. Witnesses Ivy Warr and John Rowley.
Joseph living @ 10 Gratton St. Kirkstall Rd
Elsie living @ 12 Florest St.
The other info I have is from old newspaper cuttings, (in my grandfathers papers) Death or memorial announcement. Caroline Chadwick (Carrie) died 21.03.43.mentions daughters , also name Olive, and other names.
So the only thing I don't have is Elsie's full birth cert, but I'm sure that is not going to show a father.
I seem to recall a man called Charlie who she called our Charlie(who I thought was her brother) but when I found a letter from his wife Nellie who moved to Australia,(don't know if he went or if he died first, Nellie went with her daughter Margaret and husband, their daughter Sandra stayed here) realised the surname was Heaton?? ???
I remember her talking about our Arthur and Lizzie, (they are a couple) and in the photos Arthur looks like Charlie?? I am trying to give you anything and everything, as these thing seem to make more sense to you. Thankyou for trying :)
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The Mar 1943 death registers put Caroline's age at death as 60 which is older than I thought she would be.
Still no Caroline Hackney bc 1883 sightings though.
There is a Caroline Hackney (probably the one b 1880 Derby) who marries Alfred Bowler in 1904 (Bakewell) but they are still having children together in 1917.
Richard
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Hmm,Your profile doesn't give any idea of where you are.
You DO have addresses which can be checked in electoral rolls for specific years.
These rolls are not usually online, reference libraries local to the places usually do.
Pauline
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Hi Sorry, Im from the Leeds area. West Yorkshire, Im assuming that most of the family will be from that area, as never any mention of other counties.
Thanks for looking. :)
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So - does Joseph's birth cert give a father's name?
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There is a possible birth, although Pocklington isn't particularly near Leeds:
Jun 1883 Pocklington 9d 79
Caroline HAKNEY
The 1891 census has (indexed as ARNEY):
Bielby RG12/3901
William Akney, 46, ag lab, b Everingham
Mary A, 40
Agnes A, 16, dau
William A, 11, son
Margaret A, 9, dau
Alice A, 9, dau
Caroline A, 7, dau
Tom A, 4, son rest b Bielby
There is an Annie Akney, 20, b Bielby, (who the 1881 confirms is another daughter) who is a servant in Bramley, Leeds. She is still there in 1901 married to Albert E(dward) Turner.
The mother, Mary, is an imbecilic pauper inmate in Pocklington by 1901. I can't find Caroline at the moment.
Richard
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These may be related:
http://www.myfamilies.co.uk/ancestors/pafg247.htm
Richard
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Thanks for that I wouldnt have tried a different spelling. I will try investigate this and let you know if I find anything.
There is no father at all listed on Joseph's birth cert.
Thankyou
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So it looks as though Joseph was definitely illegitimatte, and the dad on his marraige cert was 'made' up, as they so often are in those circumstances, rather than a case of a Hackney marrying a Hackney, as we thought a possibiblty.
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I wouldn't say that anything is definite yet, although it does look as if Joseph may have been 'uneconomical with the truth' when listing a father.
If we assume, based on her age at death, that his mother is the Caroline (H)ackney born in 1883, there are still big gaps in her life. We know nothing of her between 1891 and 1916. She appears not to have married before the start of the great war - by when she was 31 - and yet, when others were finding it difficult to find a husband as a result of so many young men dying at the front, she goes on to have at least one child and then get married, despite her comparatively advanced age.
It would still be good to find the 1891 entry for Caroline in or around Bramley/Leeds and the marriage between Caroline and Mr Chadwick. The latter, at least, should be in the ancestry.co.uk index.
Richard
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William Akney (father) is still alive in 1901, living with his eldest son, John (bc1870) in Pocklington.
In 1881 this John is living with Robert Balderson, 58, and his sister, 60, and is described as a nephew.
Of the parents and eight children alive in 1891, I have only found the parents, John, Annie (see above) and William (who is a servant in York) in 1901.
Alice, I think, marries an Arthur Walker in 1897; but Agnes, Margaret, Caroline and Tom are missing.
Richard
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I have this evening been through marriages for every single quarter from the beginning of 1916 to the Marhc 1/4 of 1943,but there are no marriages of a Caroline Hackney to anyone called Chadwick.
Hmmm- not sure where that leaves us now though ???
Just re-reading your posting that says about his birth registration
I already have Josephs full birth cert. DOB 19.01.16 living @ 12 Bosnia St. Armley. Mother Caroline Hackney. Registered 13.03.16
I wonder if there is any significance to the fact that they left it more than the required maximum 6 weeks before registering his birth?
If anyone can suggest why this might have been please do ;D
Regards
Carol
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She may, of course, have called herself Akney.
Or, worse, still, have had another marriage before the Chadwick one.
This site suggests that she married a Joseph Teal:
http://homepages.tesco.net/~townsleyb/TownsFH/html/dat57.htm#46
How do you fancy another trawl?!
I have emailed the site editor.
This may a good source of material (the organiser still lives in the area):
http://www.one-name.org/profiles/hakney.html
I have sent an email and will report back.
Richard
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Silver,
You say that Caroline died in March 1943- do you have that death cert?
I really would like it to say wife or widow of xxx Chadwick ;D
Richard- in answer to your question- no thanks ;)
Maybe she didn't actually marry but was just known as Chadwick(deed poll?)or could that have been her maiden name,and she just reverted back to it perhaps?
I'm not convinced on the 'Akney connection- surely she'd have to have been born under the sound of bow bells :D for it to be misheard like that?
When you say that the obit mentions her daughters Silver- can you list them please,maybe we could narrow down dates of her changes of surnames by tracking the girls down in the indexes.
Still thinking.......
Carol
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I too have been looking for Caroline, Olive etc without success. Searching all the Carol* in the 1891 census does not bring up any possibilities other than the Akney one. A few more details from the obit would be really helpful as Carol says.
Andrea
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I'm not convinced on the 'Akney connection- surely she'd have to have been born under the sound of bow bells :D for it to be misheard like that?
Carol
Even if it isn't the right person, we know that Caroline Hakney in freebmd appears as Caroline Akney on the 1891 census, so it is a variant. My feeling is that Caroline Akney/Hakney/Hackney is the person we want, but I'm willing to be proved wrong! The most recent website listed above has the Caroline b1883 dying in 1943 but it may, of course, have jumped to the wrong conclusions as well.
Richard
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Wow, I'm even more confused, but if you experts are struggling , it makes me feel a bit better, I was beginning to think I was really stupid, that I couldn't find anything. By the way thanks for your time, its good of you.
Anyway ,the memoriam from the newspaper"
CHADWICK -Loving memories of dear mother and grannie.CARRIE died March 21,1943 - Daughters and grandchildren. George(R.N) Jack(R.N) Jean and Barry,Eric.
CHADWICK - Caroline died March 21st 1943 from Olive,Jim,Peter,Robert,Anne,Mary
I hope this sheds more light on this, I cant see anything apart from Olive, but maybe thats because thats the only name I can remember being mentioned by the family.
Would her being nicknamed CARRIE as in the memoriam make a difference?
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Also just had an email from a long lost relative in Australia, (I sent a letter to an old old address as a long shot)
My grandma Elsie (nee Booth) it turns out her brother Charlie had different surnames because they had different fathers. I am waiting for more info, she is Charlies wife (aged 84). Maybe she will end some of this mystery, maybe also of Joseph. Hopefully.
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Wow, I'm even more confused, but if you experts are struggling
We're not experts Silver- just maybe been doing it a bit longer than you and know a few more tricks,or mistranscriptions than you ;D
So no mention of a hubby then...not even Carrie Chadwick -nee anything........oh blow!
I don't think the Carrie as oposed to Caroline means anything- the obit is written by a member of the family and they will use the name she was known by- the death cert itself SHOULD have her correct name- although again that's not always the case.
I'm stumped as to what to look for next- leave it with me I might get some more inspiration whilst I'm hoovering ;)
Carol
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I think the best move is to get the death cert for Caroline Chadwick.
Hopefully this may mention previous nems, whether she was wife/widow of X Chadwick, and interesting to see who registered it, may give insight on one of the other rellies.
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OK , I will apply for that, see what that turns up,
I will let you know when it comes.Thanks
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Not really Hackney. But Elsie Booth, my grandma and Josephs wife.
Had some information from Australia:- Elsies mother was EDITH BOOTH who after having Elsie she married JOSEPH HENRY HEATON and they had one son CHARLES ROBERT HEATON (B 25.01.21) that is the mystery of 2 names with 2 siblings. (josph henry brought her up as his own)
EDITH BOOTH had two brothers Arthur (who marries Mary) and Fred (who marries Lizzie)
JOSEPH HENRY had brother Harold
CHARLES ROBERT married Nellie Peacock.
This information is from Nellie aged 84.
I have looked and looked and I cant find any of them, dont know what I am doing wrong?? ???
Even took advantage of 3 free days census viewing on Ancestry,
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It sounds as if they may all be in the 1900s so census records are not going to help. You can search all the BMDs free on ancestry though. Ignore the search bit and scroll down on the home page then click the link on the right.
You should be able to find the births etc as the mother's maiden name is given after 1911.
Andrea
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Have just checked Ancestry COMPLETE list of BMD' s (that Andrea mentions below) and found the birth of Charles R HEATON in Leeds in the March 1/4 of 1921 the mothers maiden name is indeed BOOTH. The ref number is Volume 96 page number 652.
I'll take a look later to see if I can find any more useful info ;)
Carol
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Joseph H Heaton married Edith Booth in Leeds in the Sept 1/4 of 1919.
The reference is Volume 9b page 952.
Carol
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:) Thanks for that, I am supposed to have looked for that.
Is there any other way of finding the details of the marriage cert, i.e. fathers names, apart from sending for certificate??
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The easy answer is NO ! ;D
The info is only on the cert,once you've paid your £7 for it.
Unless you knew which church the marriage had taken place,in which case you could look through their parish records.Either at the local Record Office or by ordering the film in to a nearby LDS (Mormon) centre.
All the best
Carol
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Hello again Silver
Just wondered if you'd got any certs yet on any of your lines?
I'm sure we're all dying to help with the next part of the mystery.
Do post the info here when the certs come won't you?
All the best
Carol
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Hi Carol, :)
No I havent got any certs back yet, I will definately post any info that I find out, you lot will make more sense of it .
But today I have had an email from someone who just follows the Hackney line. He is very helpful, and told me that Caroline died still a Hackney?? Also that someone told him that she married Joseph Teal (someone on Rootschat also said that). Her sister Margaret (another bit of news) married a Chadwick? :o
He is going to send me some stuff.
Will keep the info coming, and hopefully get to the bottom of it.
Thanks for taking an interest
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So - is the obituary for Margaret? was she known as Carrie?
It is not making sense.
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Hi
No its not for Margaret. I didn't even know a Margaret existed.
Also if you look back to one of my previous posts, there was two entries, one for Caroline, one for Carrie. So I'm assuming it was a pet name some called her , but not the one she used officially.
This new info is news to me, I'm waiting to see what the man comes up with, Im quite excited. :)
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Well, we still need Caroline Chadwick's death cert. Until proved otherwise she was a Chadwick and not a Teal or a Hackney at the time of death.
The Ackney family that was a possibilty for Caroline's family did include a Margaret as a sister.
but - beware of two of the biggest dangers in family History. Firstly never ASSUME anything, things are not always as they seem, and secondly never take family hearsay as the ultimate truth. Always back up info as you go. Oh, and third one (!) done jump ahead too quick, confirm one person's details from as many angles as possible before leaping back generations.
Sorry, not meaning to nag or be a pain, but just want you to enjoy the hobby and not waste time and energy!
Looks like you have a fairly complex family situation here, so just work through it a step at a time. in fact I think there are really two issus on this thresd, the HAckney lot and the Booth lot. It may be worth you trying to separate them out a bit.
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Thanks, I think you are right.
I am trying to get all the info in and then sit back, have a breakdown, and then hope it all comes right.
The Booth line got a bit better as I have spoken to a living relative, all be it in Australia. Still not so far back, but at least I can pick her brain. She was Charles, (Elsie's brothers )wife. so quite close.
I'm speaking to her on Sunday, so I will have a list of questions for her.
Thanks for still taking an interest :)
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I am descended from Ackney's from Huggate near Pocklington in Yorkshire. I have found them spelled many different ways
Ackney
Akney
Akeney
Hackney
Hakeney
Hakney
There does not seem to be a lot of them in the Yorkshire area......
Tom
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Hi Tom
Do you have any mention of Caroline 1883 ? I am certain of two children Joseph and Olive .
Thanks
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Hi don't know if any one has any info, but a relative remembers it being said that Joseph was in some way related to a famous actress Pearl Hackney???(Ive never heard of her) Means nothing to me, tried to search her on Ancestry but nothing. May not even be true.
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Ooooh - havent we all heard that sort of thing!! Every family has someone 'famous' in it -according to the family hearsay!!!
Just keep on systematically finding and confirming each individual and slowly building up your tree. If you find someone famous on the way it will be a bonus, but what I do guarantee is that you will find all sorts of things that the family didint know about! and that you will have great fun doing it. And that it will take years and years, and will never end....