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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Antrim => Topic started by: kptz on Tuesday 08 May 07 05:25 BST (UK)
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looking for help find GGF John Carroll and GGM Maria Tighe
lived on Seaforde Street, Belfast, in 1900. John Carroll worked as Master Tailor on High Street
any help appreciated
Thx
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no connections found, but some sites worth looking at and first results
www.belfastfamilyhistory.com
has 2 lots of Carroll and no Tighe
home.glenravel.com/index
has 16 Carroll listed in the registry, didn’t look further
freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~rosdavies/SURNAMES/C/CarrCary
has some Moira Carroll and one Belfast Carroll, didn’t look further
www.lennonwylie.co.uk/alphanames1880c.htm has
Carroll, A., lamp & oil dealer, 82 Peter's Hill
Carroll, B. H., professor of music, 7 West Elmwood, Lisburn Road
Carroll, James, engraver, 191 Napier Place
Carroll, James, cooper, 22 Beersbridge Road
Carroll, J. H., professor of music, 57 Balmoral Terrace
Carroll, Mrs., 6 Fitzwilliam Street
Carroll, Mrs. & Miss, baby linen makers, 4 Castle Lane
Carroll, Patrick, butcher, 14 Frederick Street
Carroll, Robert, coach builder, 48 Barrack Street
Carroll & Donnelly, butchers & poulterers, 27 York Street
Mary Lennon site has much more and even a lookup service listed
Good luck, Jim
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Thank you, Jim for your generosity. I am new to genealogy research and still learning to find resources wtih the bits and pieces of information I do have. I will definitely take a look now at the sites you gave me.
Kate
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Hello
This looks like marriage details.
Date of Marriage 29 Jul 1888
Groom Name john CARROLL
Bride Name mary TIGHE
Church Belfast Roman Catholic Church
Parish Belfast Urban 11
Civil District Belfast
County Down
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Hello,
Thanks for the look up - that would make sense since my grandfather was born in 1900. Do you know if that church still exists? I can write to them to see if there are records.
I appreciate the efforts you made on my belhalf.
kptz
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kptz
Your very welcome hope it is of some help.
Iam sorry I dont know if the church is stil there or not,perhaps someone else will be able to help with that info.
All the best.
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Your informaion is very helpful. It gives m starting point and brings me closer to finding information.
kptz
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Wonder if this could be your Marys birth?
Would make her about 17 at time of marriage if it is.
Date of Birth 15 Apr 1871
Name Mary TIGHE
Gender F
Fathers Name George TIGHE
Mothers Maiden Name Isabella LEONARD
Civil District Belfast
Sub District Castlereagh No 1
County Down
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i'm not sure, it could be. i am trying find any relatives (they are few and far between) who might have information -- i was told she died in 1939, age 77
thanks for looking further. her name was spelled maria, however, it seems there is much inconsistency in recording names?
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Maria,Mary,Marie are all forms of the same name.
Mary (F) > Maria (F) >
Maria (female)
Variants: Marie (F)
Pet Name(s): Mimi (F) Minnie (F)
Derivative(s): Mary (F)
Derivative of: Miriam (F)
Can be spelt: Moriah (F)
Source(s): English Parish Register freereg.rootsweb.com
FreeCEN 1841 Census of Aberdeenshire
"Scottish Forenames" - Donald Whyte, FGH, FSG
Private communication [WBB]
Notes: Latinate form of Mary. Derived from the Biblical Miriam, Maria is popular in Catholic countries and occurs frequently in the 1841 Census of Aberdeenshire.
In old documents in Latin, Maria is invariably used, with appropriate case endings, for Mary.
One correspondent [WBB] has found a mother and daughter, both named Maria, being recorded as Marion in the 1861 Census.
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Thank you!
I am learning so much thanks to your generosity and the other members.
Hope you have had a great day!
kptz
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Hello Kate
I think the marriage took place in St. Matthews RC Church - this is Belfast Urban 11 and it is on the corner of Seaforde Street. It is very much still there also!
Sheila
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Thank you, I'll check it out!
kate
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Have just received birth cert for GF Hugh, son of John and Maria. His address in 1900 is different than one on his marriage cert. They were living at 195 Mount Pottinger Road.
I am thinking if I can check the 1901 census for John and Maria, it will give their ages as well as any other children. I can then work backwards to find out if the marriage and birth date that mossy found are the ones I need.
Now to try and organize everything!
Kate
I really appreciate all the help from everyone -- thank you
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Just got the 1901 census film from the LDS library for Mount Pottinger Street --
I now have the ages of John and Maria as of 31 Mar 1901 as well as the children living in the home at the time.
On Form B-1 House and Building Return 195 Mount Pottinger Road is described in Col 2 as "Built" and in Col. 3 is described as "Shop"
On Form A, there are 9 people living in the dwelling at the time
John Carroll 35 Tailor married born in Belfast
Maria Carroll 35 England
Agnes 11 Scholar Belfast
John 9 " "
Alexander 7 " "
David 5 " "
Albert 4 " "
William 3 "
Hugh 1 "
Based on the age of the oldest child, I would guess that the parents were married around 1888 / 1889. So perhaps the marriage that mossy found is the marriage of my great-grandparents!
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Just received response from GRO that since the marriage of John and Maria was prior to 1922, my application for marriage certificate has been forwarded to the District Registrar. Hopefully, they are able to locate the record.
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marriage. JOHN CARROLL M. MARY TIGHE 29-7-1888 AT BELFAST R.C. CHURCH. PARISH BELFAST 11. BELFAST, DOWN.
REGARDS MARY.
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Thank you Maryderry -- I appreciate all your help with my searches.
Kate
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New information gathered about the sons - A relative finally answered some questions!
(1) Jack (John) owned wholesale and retail confectioner and tobacconist businesses. He lived on Newtownards Rd., number 77.
(2) Alex owned a shoemaker and repair business.
(3) William was a coachpainter, 26 Seaforde St
(4) David was a labourer, Plevna St. off the Falls Rd. not sure , died c 1943
(5) Albert -- no information yet
(5) Hugh(my GF) was a plumber (his stated occupation when he emigrated to the States), however on his marraige cert his occupation is listed as tailor
Now to find out more information about them, do you think the 1911 census would be the way to go?
thx!
kptz
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New Information
*Marriage cerificate for John and Maria
John /tailor/ 41 Vulcan Street / Thomas Carroll, dead / labourer
Mary / weaver/ 171 Mount Pottinger Road, Ballymacarrett / William Tighe, dead / tailor
witnesses: Robert John Hanna and Ellen McVeigh
The certificate is all in the same handwriting - it doesn't appear that either John or Maria signed it unlike other ones I have.
Both John and Maria are buried in Milltown Cemetery off Falls Rd.
*Mary was still alive in 1937, not passed away in 1935
*The oldest son of John and Mary -- John - sold his own brand of cigars called Carroll's Courts - anybody heard of these?
*Albert was a gymnast and died at age 19 from a broken neck
Now If I could get death certificates for both John and Maria as well as information from the gravesite at Milltown I would be making more progress! Does Milltown provide that information if I were to write to them?
Kate
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I have just received the death certificate for GGF John Carroll. I was always told he died age 34/35 which meant 1901. Even PRONI who did the search for the record came up with 1901. In reading the certificate, I see the year as 1904, age 39. So...
His death was 17 Aug 1904. With the 1901 census - march of 1901- he was 35 at the time, I surmise that his birth year was 1865, or perhaps 1864.
Could someone do a lookup for me?
Very much appreciated!
Kate
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www.familysearch.org has two records of a John Carroll born to Thomas Carroll in Belfast area.
1. JOHN CARROLL - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 05 MAR 1863 Roman Catholic, Ballymacarret, Down, Ireland
3. JOHN CARROLL - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 10 SEP 1865 0372, Ballymacarret, Down, Ireland
emerald ancestors has no record for a John Carroll born before 1869.
OTTO
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8)Thank you OTTO!
You have been very generous and I appreciate your time.
Now the question for me to discover is which one fits. Attached is a copy of the portion of the cert with his date of death. PRONI read the year as 1901; however, I read the year as 1904. Does the reference above the box with the date refer to the year? Opinion as to year?
As always, thx for all your efforts and to all who have given generously of your time!
Kate
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I ordered a birth certificate for John Carroll for 10 Sept 1865. The date seems to fit best with the information from the 1901 census (35) and the age at death (39). The census was in March 1901 and he died in August 1904.
The parents were listed as Thomas Carroll and Margaret McMullan and the address was Bridge end. Is this area close to Mount Pottinger Road Ballymacarrett?
I also obtained the death certificate for Maria Tighe - interestingly is an amended one. Family information gives her age at death as 77 in 1939. Her son amended the death certificate to correct her age at death from 76 to age 70. She gave her age at the 1901 census So I guess the truth lies somewhere in between, however, as 35.
:-\
As always, thank you for all your help.
kpt
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Hello Kpt,
I'm not very familiar with the streets of Belfast but Lennon Wylie http://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/bsdintro1880.htm
does mention Bridge end, Ballymacarrett in his Belfast street directory.
Also, if you have a look at www.translink.co.uk/metromaps you will see both places named. Broken Link
Hope this is of some help.
Sio
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For some reason this thread was never moved to Co. Antrim board with other Belfast threads so I'm moving it there now.
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For some reason this thread was never moved to Co. Antrim board with other Belfast threads so I'm moving it there now.
I am a little confused. All the certificates I have received, from birth certificates to death certificates including that of my father, all listed the county as County Down. Most all come from Ballymacarrett.
Perhaps the title of the thread should be changed from Carroll Family in Belfast to Carroll family in County Down?
thanks,
kptz
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kptz- I moved the thread to Co. Antrim since that's were Belfast threads belong and Belfast was in your title. It's long been a problem that some records say Belfast, Co. Down and others Belfast, Co. Antrim.
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Hello aghadowey ~~
When I first posted in this forum, I was a true newbie as how to frame my queries. I am getting better as I delve more into learning about genealogy.
Is Belfast divided in terms of county boundaries - is part in Antrim and part in Down? Or is it all in one county? Is the determination of county dependent on historical context?
thanks for the help,
kptz
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The River Lagan was the ancient county boundary so all "Belfast" east of the Lagan is in historic Co Down. Belfast originally was all in Co Antrim in the parish of Shankill and Ballymacarrett was a separate village on the other side of the river. As the city expanded it went beyond the parish (and indeed county) boundary. Eventually it was made a County Borough in its own right, as was the city of Londonderry. In both cases the cities have now spread beyond even these limits and, in any case, counties and county boroughs have no administrative existence any more. Another anomaly is "the county of the town of Carrickfergus" which was at one time separate to the surrounding Co Antrim and can be found referred to in some land records.
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...as is lisburn. one side of the lagan is county antrim and the other county down. another example would be newry,county down, but some certs would show newry county armagh,depending on which part of the city the event took place.
it adds to the difficulty of finding any information.
tony
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Thank you akanex2 and Tony for the historical perspective. It seems that I need to cast a wider net with my searches to include Antrim as a location.
I have just located my GGM on the 1911 census for County Down.
She had moved after her husband died from Mount Pottinger Road to Arran Street.
She was also creative
with her stated age - on this census she was 49 however on the 1901 she gave her age as 35.
with her place of birth - on this census she said she was born in Belfast. In 1901 she gave England.
Historical detective work is interesting!
kptz
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A new wrinkle - perhaps a kind soul can help
I am looking into the birth information for my GGF john CARROLL. On the 1901 census, he gave his age as 35. I have his death certificate. In 1904, he died at the age of 39.
I checked birth indexes at the FHL and found a birth registered in September qtr 1865 which would fit the time frame. I ordered the certificate which gives his birth in Ballymcarrett, County Down on 10 September 1865 and gives mother and father (margaret CARROLL nee MCMULLAN and thomas CARROLL). I got the name of his father from his marriage certificate.
I have learned of a baptism at St. Matthew's RC church 22/June/1865, with the above parents but with the notation that the parents were not married at the time.
However, I discovered on Ancestry in One World Tree of john CARROLL, b 10/Sept/1865, parents as listed above and married in 1866. It is a user submitted tree with no contact information and when clicking for more information find someone had all baptized, etc. in the Mormon temple.
I am a little confused - is it possible a birth would occur and not be registered until 2 months later?
Any guidance appreciated.
kptz