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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Bedfordshire => Topic started by: wdurham on Saturday 05 May 07 07:25 BST (UK)
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If any kind soul has access to Ravensden marriage records, I'd appreciate a couple of lookups.
My ggg-grandfather was John Armstrong of Ravensden in Beds, b about 1800 and baptised 15 November 1802 along with two siblings, Elizabeth and Ann. Their parents are given as John Armstrong and Sarah. (IGI extraction, Batch no C148781)
The children of John and Sarah baptised in the years either side of 1800 are the earliest Armstrong records in the batch, so it's likely that John Armstrong Senior came from somewhere else.
John Armstrong Junior married twice - first to Jane, with whom had at least one child, Sarah/Sally, baptised 16 Jan 1831.
Jane was buried at Ravensden All Saints 1 July 1833 (NBI)
John then married Eleanor Green with whom he had several more children, although the Rebecca listed on the IGI as the daughter of John and Eleanor is almost certainly the daughter of John and Jane, baptised late in a job lot with 2 younger siblings.
Eleanor also died young, and was buried 20 Jun 1843 at Ravensden All Saints. (NBI)
So my queries are:
Is there a marriage for a John Armstrong and Sarah around 1790-1800 in Ravensden?
Is there a marriage listed for John Armstrong and Jane in Ravensden? Date would be around 1828-1830.
And is his marriage to Eleanor Green listed? This would have been in 1833 or 1834. I found Eleanor's maiden name from her daughter Sophia's birth certificate, so am fairly certain that it is correct.
If anyone can help I would be very grateful!
Best regards
Wendy
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Hello Wendy,
Didn't go to Bedford yesterday as I went to Olympia FH show, but will go next weekend and take a look at the PR at the library. But the transcript there only goes up to 1812, for your later two lookups the info is at the Beds Archives.
Have you seen this site ? I know it wont help you much
http://www.ravensden.org.uk/csscontentshi.htm
I did notice there on the Muster Lists/National Defence Volunteers an entry for John Armstrong, Labourer, class 4 (married men 17 - 30 with more than two children under 10)
Regards John
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Many thanks, johnP -
The earlier marriage - of John Armstrong and Sarah - is probably the most important, as baptismal records and entries in the National Burial Index point pretty securely to the two wives of John Armstrong Jnr. His second wife Eleanor also appears in the 1841 census and on the birth certificate of her daughter Sophia. Dates would be nice, but aren't critical!
However, with John Snr, a marriage entry - if it exists in Ravensden - MIGHT give a clue as to where he came from. There are "probable" burials in Ravensden for him and for Sarah on the NBI, in 1826 and 1813 respectively, which point to birth dates of 1760 and 1766 respectively. A shame that neither of them made it to the 1841 census - I would have at least known whether they were "born in county" or not!
Thanks for the site reference for Ravensden - the John Armstrong mentioned in the militia list is probably mine, as he seems to have been the only one about at the time. In 1803 he would have been 43 years old, with at least four children under 10 so definitely a Class 4!
Which is another reason I think he might have come from elsewhere. The Ravensden baptisms for the children of John and Sarah don't start till the baptism of Edith in 1798, by which time he was 38 and Sarah 32. A bit late to be starting a family in those days?
No doubt it will all come out in the wash - eventually!
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Ravensden is also on the BVRI which sometimes gives a bit more detail than the IGI. But none of the marriages that you are seeking is on it, although 1796 appears to be missing. But this is irrelevant as they married much earlier - they baptised the following in Ravensden
Mary 29 April 1787
Elizabeth 15 Nov 1802 - BVRI gives what is presumably a birth year of 1789
Ann 15 Nov 1802 - birth year 1791
John 15 Nov 1802 - birth year 1800
Perhaps JP could check these in the transcript? I wonder why they baptised Edith out of sequence in 1798 - perhaps she was sickly and wasn't expected to make it.
The earliest Armstrong marriage in Ravensden is in 1819, that of Edith
Unfortunately, as seems to be happening more and more, the IGI is playing up again this afternoon so I can't check as much as I would like. "The proxy server received an invalid response from an upstream server." Sounds like gobbledegook BS for "our servers are down again"
The IGI has a marriage in Wymington Beds between John Armstrong and Jane Houghton on 23 May 1825 but because of the IGI situation I can't see if they baptised any children there
I wonder if any of the marriages may have taken place in Northants, which is a bit of a black hole for me. They didn't take place in the other adjoining county of Hunts
Regards
David
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David -
Thanks SO much! I had hoped you would look in, as the guru on all things Bedford...
Those birth years solve a difficulty - i.e. why the gap between Mary in 1787 and Edith in 1798. I had begun to think that perhaps Mary was a red herring....and that John and Sarah really HAD started late!
Although this family were great ones for baptising their children in job lots - John Jnr did it too, which has caused confusion over the parentage of his elder children as stated below.
The picture is now a great deal clearer.
I had found the marriage of John and Jane Houghton in Wymington - plus one daughter, Sally, baptised in Ravensden 16 Jan 1831. This seems about right, as subsequent census entries place her birth in about 1830. John and Jane seem to have waited 5 years or so before producing children in Ravensden, so perhaps there are other children born elsewhere - though they don't feature in census returns. Sally/Sarah is always shown as the eldest, with Rebecca/Rebekah 2 years younger.
I believe that Rebecca, baptised late and after John's marriage to Eleanor, was also the daughter of Jane. Census entries place her birth in 1832, well before Jane's death.
I have had a look in Wymington - between error messages from the IGI website! - but there are no Armstrong baptisms.
I see you have found a marriage for Edith in 1819 - I was just going to have a look for her in the early census returns to see if I could get a fix on a real birth date for her. Could I trouble you for her husband's name?
Thanks again!
Wendy
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Of course, it's just occurred to me - just because the marriage of Jane Houghton to John Armstrong in Wymington is the only relevant marriage on the IGI database, it doesn't have to be them! Wymington could be another red herring.....
Though I have found a suitable Eleanor Green b 1808 (which is exactly right working back from her age at burial) in Thurleigh - no marriage, though. :(
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Flattery will get you everywhere! You mean I can't keep my nose out!
Sally is the only child of a John and Jane baptised in Beds, but the 5 year gap between the marriage concerns me, and Wymington and Ravensden are not exactly next door - possibly more likely is the John married in Wymington was from Northants which is only a mile away. But if it's a red herring, which I think it may be, where were John and Jane married? (A Jane Houghton was baptised in 1804 in Wymington, parents William and Rebecca, which may add weight to your theory about Rebecca, IF this is the right Jane - at burial on 1 July 1833 at Ravensden Jane Armstrong was 29.....it all fits!)
Edith married Joseph Cockins on 12 Nov 1819 at Ravensden. An Eady Cockins was buried at Thurleigh aged 37 on 7 Oct 1835.
Thurleigh PRs post 1812 are not on the IGI, which is why you can't see the marriage. But the BVRI has a marriage on 21 Oct 1833 at Thurleigh between John Armstrong and Eleanor Green - sorry, I only looked at Ravensden earlier, and I was getting VERY frustrated with the IGI! There were a LOT of Armstrong marriages in Thurleigh after 1833.
Regards
David
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Wendy,
Does your Armstong tree link to William b 1791 Ravensden who married Ann Gammons of Thurleigh, prior to 1821. William's father was Thomas b 1763 & married Phoebe Wisson. If so welcome to my tree, if not maybe David can find a link.
William & Ann, had son Thomas b 1830 Thurleigh, who married Jane Sabey of Bolnhurst, they had son Charles b 1851 who married two Partridge girls from the same family nest.
David, re. the IGl access ; Family Search aka LDS, are at the Olympia Show with a bank of 8 terminals, I expect they've diverted all the power.
Regards John
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A bit more flattery - you are wonderful!
The John Armstrong-Jane Houghton tie-up is looking more possible. Two daughters - Sally b 1830 and Rebecca b 1832 - his mother and her mother. And now you've found Jane's baptism, it ties up with her age at death. I have followed the two daughters through the census returns, and the extrapolated birth dates of 1830 and 1832 are fairly consistent. Add to that the fact that Rebecca named her first daughter Jane.... Sally didn't marry, although she appears to have had two illegitimate children according to the census returns - Caleb born in about 1850 and Edward in 1860, neither of which gives anything away, except perhaps their father's names?
And thanks for Eleanor! The marriage in Thurleigh fits nicely, and the date is perfect. John had two baby girls at home and must have been desperate for a new wife. I guess by the time Eleanor died in 1843 Sally was old enough to mind the others, because he does not appear to have married again.
i must check out the Thurleigh Armstrongs - so far I only have one connection. Ann Armstrong, daughter of John and Eleanor, married a Thomas Hart of Thurleigh, and they had lots of little Harts all over Thurleigh and Riseley. In 1841 and 1851 the only Armstrongs in Ravensden were John Jnr and his children. They must have come from somewhere....
Tell me, David, how can I get hold of the BVRI? Google says it's a CD set you can only purchase from the LDS - is that right?
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"Does your Armstong tree link to William b 1791 Ravensden who married Ann Gammons of Thurleigh, prior to 1821. William's father was Thomas b 1763 & married Phoebe Wisson. If so welcome to my tree, if not maybe David can find a link.
William & Ann, had son Thomas b 1830 Thurleigh, who married Jane Sabey of Bolnhurst, they had son Charles b 1851 who married two Partridge girls from the same family nest. "
No, John, not thus far anyway. I have only just returned to my Armstrongs after my initial dash backwards up the direct line from great-granny Sophia Chandler some 5-6 years ago. Sophia was the daughter of Eliza Armstrong and George Chandler of Marston Moretaine, Eliza in her turn being the daughter of John Armstrong and Eleanor Green.
I have a William Armstrong - b 1839, son of John and Eleanor, but he's the only one so far. He went on his travels quite early in life, marrying Frances Woodcraft of Millbrook in 1857 and ending up in Walsall by 1871.
However, for this branch I have been very dependent on the IGI, and as David has already proven, not everything is on Family Search by any means! William above, for instance, is missing from the Ravensden baptisms of John and Eleanor's children - or perhaps he just wasn't baptised?
But a William b 1791 in Ravensden would fit very well with John and Sarah's brood....perhaps John Snr (b 1760) had a brother named Thomas, and they moved to Ravensden together?
I would have a look, but Family Search is now completely down.... >:(
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Hi Wendy & John
John, don't blame me, you did invite me to find a link!
It may be cat and pigeons time! I have to question whether Ann Gammons is the mother of Thomas. The BVRI has a marriage in Thurleigh on 1 July 1827 between William Armstrong and Ann Wrench, then baptisms of Sarah on 16 March 1828; Thomas on 17 Apr 1831; Eli on 26 Apr 1835. The problem arises as to who William age 20 is in 1841 living with them. Looking at 1851 it looks as though he was born in Wilden – there’s a christening in Wilden on 19 May 1822 of William son of William & Elizabeth. There’s a marriage on 24 Dec 1816 at Wilden between William Armstrong and Elizabeth Franklin and there’s a burial of Elizabeth Armstrong age 29 on 24 Feb 1825 at Wilden. It looks as though this William the elder might be the William who married in Thurleigh in 1827. But where does Ann Gammons come into the picture? Unless Ann Wrench was also a widow, maiden name Gammons, but the pre 1821 marriage must be wrong.
I also question if William was the son of Thomas and Phoebe. There’s no William christened in Ravensden or Thurleigh c 1791 on either the IGI or BVRI. But there is a William christened in Upper Gravenhurst, 15 miles away, on 27 May 1792, son of Thomas and Phoebe. Thomas and Phoebe Wisson were married in Upper Gravenhurst on 10 Oct 1788. There’s also a burial in UG of a William Armstrong on 7 Aug 1807 but it would need the PR to try to establish if it’s the same William. How have you connected William in Thurleigh in 1830 and the Upper Gravenhurst Armstrongs? Big fluorescent red question marks flashing in France! (and they're not flashing about the result of today's presidential election)
I'm not questioning: Thomas Armstrong, father William, married Jane Saby, father Thomas, on 12 Oct 1846 at Thurleigh, even though they were only 16
"She was only sixteen, only sixteen
He loved her so
But she was too young to fall in love
And he was too young to know"
I can’t prove a link into Wendy’s Armstrongs, but as there are no unexplained Armstrong burials in Thurleigh or Ravensden, and as there’s no-one unexplained in the two parishes in 1841 I have to wonder if William could be the son of John and Sarah – given their very patchy baptism record it wouldn’t surprise me if he got missed
Wendy – yes, the BVRI is only available from the LDS in Birmingham, but check the contents first on http://www.genoot.com/downloads/BVRI2/
Coverage is very patchy, and some people have found it no help at all. But if “your” county is not well covered on the IGI then it can be very useful. Hunts for example is one of my three counties and I swear by the BVRI (much as I’m swearing at the IGI today!). In Beds it’s useful in topping up bits post 1812 missing from the IGI eg Ravensden and Thurleigh – and it includes the baptism of William son of John and Eleanor in Ravensden on 17 Dec 1837
Regards to both
David
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John -
The IGI just popped up the answer to this search:
WILLIAM ARMSTRONG
Male
Event(s):
Birth:
Christening:
27 MAY 1792 Upper Gravenhurst, Bedford, England
Death:
Burial:
Parents:
Father: THOMAS ARMSTRONG Family
Mother: PHOEBE
A member submitted entry supplies Phoebe's surname as Wisson.
Now the census returns say Ravensden in 1851 and 1861 - but if William could not read or write, and the enumerator misheard him.....
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Hello David ( & Wendy)
When I said '..... maybe David can find a link' it wasn't a challenge ... but you've taken up the baton. so run with it.
Anyway, the info I gave was (most likely) second hand from data I've gleaned from other multiple peoples trees, not that its officially recorded in my tree, as I havent checked it out until now... If two people say the same thing I assume it's most likely correct. William Armstrong was married to an Ann (assumed Gammons). I have him born 1791 & died 1869, & her b 1790 & died 1877. There were children, Sarah 1828 who married Thomas Cowley, Thomas 1830 who married Jane Sab(e)y, & Eli 1835 who mrried Mary Asplin. There is also a William 1821. From these same sources came Thomas Armstrong & Phoebe Wisson both from Upper Gravenhurst.
So take it on, or leave it be.. I think I need to review info next time I visit the Archives.
Cheers John
PS what's the 2 week's time weather forecast predict.... ? .
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Hi John
Where there are doubts recourse to the PRs is the only answer. I've flagged my areas of doubt - and often a different set of eyes sees things totally differently (and not necessarily correctly!).
Unfortunately it's only the Upper Gravenhurst entries that will be in the transcripts so a day off and a trip to the Archives seems to be required.
Miserable and cold and wet recently, but Thursday is forecast 80 +, so bring your factor 30! Edit - And a hat! But NOT a knotted handkerchief
All the best
David
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Wendy - sorry, seems I've hijacked your topic...
David, the IGI (being responsive now) gives me marriage of Ann Gamons to Wm Rench on 12 Oct 1812 at Thurleigh. Don't know why we needed the IGI, it's in the Thurleigh PR transcript all along, I've have it & I've just read it. I thought red wine was meant to improve the senses !
Cheers John
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Good find. So it was probably a second marriage for both. A William Wrench age 34 was buried at Thurleigh on 17 Jan 1819. It took a bit of a long time for her to remarry, but it all fits. So Mary Gammons was the mother of your Thomas (subject of course to confirmation from the PR that Mary Wrench was a widow on marriage to William Armstrong, widower!)
I wonder if Wilden PR will be helpful and give William's parish of residence for the 1816 marriage?
Chin chin
David
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No worries, John - what a fascinating afternoon!
So your William 1791 Ravensden is in fact Upper Gravenhurst.
And my missing William 1839 is in fact William 1837 Ravensden.
Now here's a question. The Ravensden records in the IGI which supplied the baptisms of the children of Eleanor Green and John Armstrong in Ravensden are extracted records. Yet William is missing.
The BVRI has William, but doesn't have the later children Sophia 1841 and Emma 1843.
As both surely come from the same source, the parish records, why the discrepancies?
Having said earlier that the only Ravensden Armstrongs in 1841 were John Jnr and his family, I have now found a Ravensden population count for 1831 on the Beds CC website, and again, John Jnr and his family are the only Armstrongs.
"Only sixteen..." - showing your age, David!
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Hi Wendy
The BVRI has more than I've mentioned to date -
Ann 18 Sept 1836
Eliza 18 Sept 1836 with a year against it of 1833 which doesn't tie up with the 1841 census
Sophia 11 Apr 1841 with a year of 1831, which is totally adrift!
Emma 14 May 1843 (can't see her in either census)
Even worse is Rebecca 18 Sept 1836 with a year of 1795!
I have found the same thing in Southill where the year against the entry, presumably based on the age of the the child being noted in the register, has been calculated incorrectly. I wish they'd just add a note "age 4" or whatever rather than deduct 4 from the baptism year and put a year in.
I don't know why William should have been missed from the IGI - perhaps it was simply that - he was missed! Ravensden doesn't appear on the Hugh Wallis site, so possibly this is a fairly recent batch - it's different to the usual C batches in that it's all lower case. And the LDS has done weird things with recent extractions - like extracting only females. And looking quickly I can't see any male names after 1812, and a search against the batch number and "John" or "William" shows nothing after 1812. It might be that the PR has been fully extracted up to 1812 and females only thereafter.
Speaking of the IGI. it's better than it was yesterday, but still in go slow/error message mode for anything but the simplest search. One shouldn't complain about such an incredible free facility, but one does!
I still remain to be convinced about the Upper Gravenhurst William! One enumeration error Ravensden for Gravenhust perhaps, but two is pushing it, but not impossible. But I wouldn't want to hang my hat on that being the sole supporting evidence other than the age fits. I'd like to see what Upper Gravenhurst PR says about the about the 1807 burial and the Wilden PR about the 1816 marriage. Bit of a coicidence though, that an Armstrong from Upper Gravenhurst should pitch up in Ravensden where there's just the one Armstrong family. (Might John have been from Upper Gravenhurst? - although there's still no marriage)
But it does seem as though the Ravensden Armstrongs did eventually baptise their children, so why would they have missed William? But there is a big gap between Ann born 1791 (subject to this date from the BVRI being correct) and Edith in 1798. I never like large unexplained gaps!
Not so much as showing my age as finding it increasingly difficult to hide it! I have a 7 year old son who only knows songs from the 60's (plus Meatloaf)!
Regards
David
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And there's me thinking I was the only one sad enough to be sitting at my PC at 7.30 on a holiday....
Thanks for the BVRI info - and yes, some of it is way out.
1833 for Eliza just doesn't work. She was 4 in 1841, 14 in 1851 (transcribed by Ancestry as 12, but the image says otherwise!) etc, and I have her memorial inscription as follows: "In Loving Memory of Lizzie Chandler. The Beloved wife of George Chandler, who peacefully passed away June 27 1921, aged 85 years. "Forever with the Lord". Perhaps she was 3 MONTHS rather than years at baptism - her birth could have been the trigger for the multiple baptism on 18 Sept 1836. (And how's this for a coincidence? Her husband George Chandler was baptised on exactly the same day in Marston Moretaine!)
1831 for Sophia is plain wrong. She was 1 in 1841. And not 10 till 1851! (Mistranscribed by Ancestry as 6.) I wonder if, like Eliza, her age at baptism was 10 months and was simply misread?
And as for Rebecca! Words fail me. Actually they don't - if you think about how things were physically written down, "4" could be misread as "41" - I have just seen a "4" on a census page with its downstroke written so far to the right it could easily be misread. That accounts for 1795!
Emma seems to have died in March 1851 - I haven't confirmed with a cert, but she is on FreeBMD thus:
Deaths Mar 1851
ARMSTRONG Emma Bedford 6 16
I had noticed that males and females are listed in separate batches in some parishes - J and K seem to be the prefixes. And I am pretty sure the Ravensden batch IS new - when I first looked at these Armstrongs about 6 years ago, there weren't any Ravensden baptisms. And Hugh Wallis doesn't list it, as you say.
As for JP's William 1791-ish, he DOES say Ravensden in two consecutive censuses. However, it's always worth remembering that even the images we see in the enumerator books are already first generation copies - and as some of the enumerators were practically illiterate, I can see how Gravenhurst could be misread as Ravensden. And of course the Ancestry transcripts are dreadful. I subscribe to the Genealogist and British Origins for more reliable transcripts!
The IGI has the baptism I put up yesterday - William the son of Thomas Armstrong and Phoebe Wisson was baptised in Upper Gravenhurst. In 1851 a Thomas Armstrong b 1799 with his wife Mary is in Upper Gravenhurst, with Phoebe his mother also in residence. His birthplace is given as Upper Gravenhurst, so at the time of his birth in 1799, Thomas Snr and Phoebe were not in Ravensden - indicating they are unlikely to have been there in 1791 either. And certainly in 1841 Thomas Snr and Phoebe and Thomas Jnr, Mary and all the little Armstrongs were definitely in Upper Gravenhurst.
So the William 1791 born in Ravensden and living in Thurleigh in 1851 is likely to be a completely different person to William the son of Thomas and Phoebe. Thomas and Phoebe's family didn't move, so if William went travelling it must have been alone, perhaps looking for work. Even in his teens he would surely have known where he had been born? I can see a confusion between UG and Ravensden if the whole family had moved from UG to somewhere else, and the only knowledge he had of his birthplace was what he had been told as a child and perhaps misunderstood or misheard.....
Following in the tracks of you and JP, it seems that the "Ravensden" William married Elizabeth Franklin in Wilden in 1816. Eilizabeth was a Wilden girl, probably the daughter of Thomas Franklin and "Trew" and b about 1796. They had a son William in 1822. Elizabeth died in 1825. William then married Ann Wrench nee Gammons in Thurleigh in 1827 - probably he needed a wife to look after his little boy (and there could also have been other children who had left home by 1841) William and Ann had three children - Sarah 1828, Thomas 1831 and Eli 1835.
So who was this William Armstrong? Wilden is only yards from Ravensden. Thurleigh is also very close. On purely circumstantial evidence, I would put him as a son of John and Sarah in preference to the documented son of Thomas and Phoebe- if he really was born in Ravensden, and he seems convinced he was, then he is 90% likely to have been an undocumented child of John and Sarah - they were the only Armstrong couple having children in Ravensden at that time.
Oh dear - and now to add insult to injury, in addition to the IGI messing me about, my broadband connection is playing up so goodness knows when I can send this!
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The William Armstrong b 1820 in 1841 household with my William Armstrong & Ann (W)Rench (previously Gamons) is I believe William's son from his marriage to Elizabeth Franklin of Wilden. Later censuses have him born Wilden, he is now married to Dinah ? b 1820 Thurleigh. In 1851 he is living next door to his step sister Sarah who is now married to Thomas Cowley.
As to Ann Armstrong, on 1871 census, after husband William dies, she is down as mother in household headed by John Rench b 1814.
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William Armstrong and Elizabeth Franklin do seem to have had three other children in Wilden as well as William b 1822 -
Sarah baptised 26 Oct 1817
John baptised 19 May 1822, same day as William
Elizabeth baptised 17 Oct 1724
That's a good clincher, in my opinion - first daughter named after William's mother Sarah and a son (who could be the eldest - hard to say whether William or John came first as they were baptised together) named after his father.
OK, they are very common names, but it's another piece of circumstantial evidence to add to the pile. :)
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... interesting that William has daughter Sarah (1817) with Elizabeth Franklin, & he then has another daughter Sarah (1828) with Ann Rench/Gamons
maybe the first daughter Sarah died ?
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Quite possible, John.
If the first Sarah DID die, it's another little bit of circumstantial evidence, in that William Snr was determined to have a daughter named Sarah! Which strengthens the theory that it could have been his mother's name.
When you first raised the possibility of a connection between our trees, it seemed unlikely. But after all this digging around, I suspect we do have a link via William b 1791....it's just going to be very hard to prove it!
He exists as the husband of Elizabeth Franklin and Ann Wrench/Gammons, and as the father of 7 children. He also exists in 3 census returns. But we still have no definite information about who he was or where he came from other than his own declaration of being born in Ravensden.
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I go away for 5 minutes and there's a whole new load of messages for me to catch up on! I forgot it was a bank holiday until I spoke to my mother in Bedford.
I cannot see a burial of the first Sarah on the NBI.
And as the IGI seems to be a bit iffy so far as Ravensden PRs go, I think I would have a hard look at the transcript to see if William 1791 might have been missed too.
Bank holiday here tomorrow, not that that will affect me a lot. Lots take today off as well - making the bridge they call it - to make a very long weekend of it. The trouble in May is that there are three such bank holidays, so there are three 3 day weeks!
But tonight is bar night!
Enjoy!
David
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Hello David
Is each & every Monday night a bar night ? - looking forward to it already
We have 2 bank holidays in May, the first (beginning of month) is supposidely linked to May Day, & the second at end of month replaces Whitsun (Pentecost) religious holiday.
I've been over to Eaton Socon to glean info from their local history fair.
Good health & Cheers John
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We have discussed the possibility of William Armstrong 1791 b Ravensden as being an undocumented child of John Armstrong 1760 and Sarah.
I have just found a burial for a Sarah Armstrong as follows:
NBI = Name Sarah ARMSTRONG Date 12 Dec 1810 Aged 3 Place Ravensden Description All Saints Denomination Anglican County code BDF
So there's a genuine undocumented child - in that particular period, she can ONLY belong to John and Sarah.
Unless it is a mistranscription.
William 1791 and Elizabeth Franklin had a daughter Sarah b 1817 in Wilden. He later baptised another Sarah in 1828, the inference being that the first Sarah had died, as JP said. It's not very likely, but would be possible for 1820 to be misread as 1810, and it's possible he may have buried her in Ravensden rather than Wilden.
Having said that, it seems William and Elizabeth weren't very lucky parents - they also lost their son John, but they buried him in Wilden:
NBI = Name John ARMSTRONG Date 6 Apr 1823 Aged 1 Place Wilden Description St Nicholas Denomination Anglican County code BDF
And 2 x Elizabeths, the first of which does not appear to have been baptised, the second of which was baptised on 17 Oct 1824.
NBI = Name Elizabeth ARMSTRONG Date 4 Mar 1820 Aged 2 Place Wilden Description St Nicholas Denomination Anglican County code BDF
NBI = Name Eliz ARMSTRONG Date 23 Dec 1824 Aged 6m Place Wilden Description St Nicholas Denomination Anglican County code BDF
The only survivor appears to have been William b 1820 - which is a blessing, or it would have left no link at all between William of Wilden and the William of Thurleigh!
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And there's no Sarah baptised 1807 on the BVRI either. Just Ann 28 Sept 1807, which doesn't leave much time for a Sarah who was 3 in Dec 1810 to have been been born (unless Ann was another of their delayed baptisms). Have you traced Ann going forwards Wendy?
Regards
David
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No, David - trying to do the day job! (Without much success...) :o
There is a baptism in 1807 on the IGI for an Ann, but not for a Sarah. But at Ann's baptism, big sister Ann was still alive. Is it just plain wrong and she was Sarah, not Ann, or perhaps even Sarah Ann?
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Wendy
I found this as part of reply 14 on the 'Trying to find a missing Pfau...' (*)
Is there a connection to your family tree ?
In 1901 Annie Pfau age 38 was living in Russell St, Bedford. In 1871 also living in Russell St Bedford was George and Elizabeth Chandler along with daughter Anne age 8. No christening on the IGI though. 2 births on FreeBMD in Bedford in 1863 - March Anne Chandler, and Dec Ann Elizabeth Denton Chandler. Elizabeth Chandler appears to have been Elizabeth Armstrong, so I think I fancy the March 1863 entry.
John
(*) Moderator Comment:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,224892.0.html
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Looks like it, John.
Elizabeth Armstrong - daughter of John 1860 and Eleanor Green - married George Chandler on 28 Dec 1857 in Bedford St Paul.
They had umpteen children - Annie b 1863 was child No 3, and my g-grandmother Sophia was child No 11 b 1878. Like the Ravensden Armstrongs, the Chandlers were addicts of the job-lot baptism and Annie was baptised in Dec 1867 along with 4 or 5 siblings.
I know nothing of Annie, although I do remember many of her sisters - Aunt Lou (Louisa 1869) Aunt Harriet (1874) and Aunt Lot (Charlotte, one of the twins b 1876). They used to send me postal orders and improving books for Christmas.
A quick check shows that Annie Chandler married Charles Bernhard Pfau in Shoreditch, qe Sep 1884. 1901 census shows her birthplace as Bedford.
But which Annie is she? In 1881 one of the 1863 Annie's is a visitor to a George Denton in Bedford - implication being that she is more likely to be the Ann Elizabeth Denton Chandler, although no relationship is given to George. The other Annie (listed as Annie Elizabeth) is a servant at a school in Bushey, Hertfordshire. This one seems most likely to have been the Annie that married Charles Pfau in London, as she was already over halfway there, and if the other Ann is the one with the Denton connection, then this Annie must be the daughter of George and Elizabeth...all a bit convoluted but I am sure you see what I mean!
I can't find entries for either of the Annies in 1891. Nor for Ann E D Chandler in 1871.
I have put a question on the Pfau thread - if the marriage certificate of Annie Chandler and Charles Pfau has arrived, then a partial solution is at hand... I say partial, because you can't be sure that both Annie's weren't fathered by a George. The only way to be certain is to get birth certs for both of the Annies.
Thanks for bringing this to my attention! Another mystery to solve....
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If you are watching the Pfau thread, John, you will see that Mickledore and I have a 99% probable conection via our great grannies, Annie and Sophia Chandler.
The likelihood of both Annie Chandlers having aunties and sisters with identical names is very slim.....
:D
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Yes Wendy, I've been reading the dialogue - it's great stuff
Who needs Genes Reunited 'Hot Matches' when you've got me !
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LOL!
Seriously, thanks a bunch! I must put the respective mothers of Mickledore and me in touch - they will gossip for hours.
I have dropped a couple of message to G-R people re: our mysterious William Armstrong allegedly born in Ravensden. One kind soul did reply, but also had William as the son of Thomas and Phoebe of UG, so no further forward on that front.
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I've seen the online tree that has that parent link on it, and it looks to me as though it could have been put in on the basis that it was the only entry on the IGI that fits. The same tree has one of my names on it where the couple lived in Henlow Beds but the marriage wasn't there, and it has a marriage in Northants, on the basis, as the tree owner told me, it was the only one that fitted. The fact is that a little bit of research would have found the Northants' happy couple producing children in the husband's home parish, and then both of them dying, and would have ruled out that particular marriage
Quantity, not quality, seems to be the order of the day with that tree. Some of it is good though. The bit that was lifted from my online tree!
That was good recollection linking the two threads John. The writer of that bit you quoted from the Pfau thread couldn't remember writing it, let alone recall the names in it!
Regards
David
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LOL!
I have dropped a couple of message to G-R people re: our mysterious William Armstrong allegedly born in Ravensden.
Wendy, I did the same to additional 5 people on Monday - but had no reply; I already have 3 contacts' trees with the Upper Gravenhurst parents.
I'm really pleased my hunch has produced lots of memories.
David, There are certain people who only gather information while I do data mining.
Yes sharing online trees will have a failing if the information is wrong. If more than one tree has the same error, then anyone new viewing all these trees will assume (like sadly I did) that the information is correct. BUT it still might be !
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I didn't even bother with those who had the UG birthplace, John - only those that listed William as born in Ravensden. I thought they might have something I didn't - but no luck thus far.
The other consideration, of course, is that a lot of G-R trees have come from Ancestral files on the IGI or trees on Ancestry which are also based on the IGI Ancestral files. Error compounds error. As John says, if more than two people have the same info, you tend to assume it's likely to be correct. But if those two people got their info from the same source, and that source was an error to start with.....
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You'll be delighted to know, JP, that Mickledore and I have established that our mothers are indeed second cousins, as their grannies were sisters - Annie (known in the family as Nance or Nancy) and Sophia Chandler, daughters of George Chandler and Elizabeth Armstrong.
Sophia, incidentally, is pronounced Sof-eye-a. She used to take great exception to Sof-ee-a, and would stick nose in the air and point out that it was a place in Bulgaria rather than her name.
We have now taken the family gossip to private messaging to avoid boring the pants of everyone else!
However, one question - does anyone know if an adoption can be discovered in any way? We believe from family lore that Louisa Chandler adopted an Emmeline Morris during the early 1900's, and would like some kind of confirmation. I doubt very much that such data is available - but does anyone know better?
Thanks so much, JP - and David - for all your help. And it probably isn't done with yet....! :D
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Legal adoptions didn't start until 1926, and any adoptions prior to that were purely informal affairs, so I think your doubts are justified!
Regards
David
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Wendy, That's great news - do you and Mickledore live close enough to have a family reunion.
Wendy & David, I'm planning to go to Bedford tomorrow & the library to look up PRs to 1812 for Ravensden, Wilden, Upper Gravenhurst, anywhere else - can I have a quick summary of anything outstanding needing looking up.
Also if I can make it, on Monday as Beds Archive stay open until 7:00pm, I can have about hour & a half checking PRs from 1812 onwards - again put down your requests.
Cheers John
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John, you are a scholar and a gentleman.
The BIG tricky one is William Armstrong b about 1791 in Ravensden, (NOT Upper Gravenhurst) but I guess you want to look him up for yourself anyway!
He doesn't apear in the Ravensden batch on the IGI as a child of John Armstrong and Sarah, but that is not necessarily meaningful, as nor does a Sarah born about 1807 who died in 1810 aged 3 according to the NBI.
Then there is the marriage of John Armstrong Snr b about 1760 and Sarah - but as we don't have a clue where they came from, that's a hard one!
However, Wilhampstead might be a possibility. John Armstrong 1760 turned up in Ravensden in 1787 and Thomas Armstrong 1756 who married Phoebe turned up in Upper Gravensden in or about 1788. There is an IGI entry that places Thomas's birth in UG, but it's a member entry based on his marriage to Phoebe which simply assumes he was born where he married.
John Armstrong and Edy Grange of Houghton Conquest married in HC in 1753. William Armstrong was baptised in Wilhampstead in 1754, son of John and Edith. John Armstrong was baptised in 1761, son of John and Edith. Might they also have had a Thomas b 1756 - he would fit nicely into the gap!
There is a Thomas, but he's baptised in 1766 son of Thomas and Christian Fiddes, so 10 years too young.
John b 1760 named two of his children John and Edith, which is a slim link, but nonetheless it IS a link!
It might be worth checking Wilhamstead and/or Houghton Conquest, to see if there is anything in the PRs which isn't on the IGI.
If you can find anything, I shall be very grateful - this is my direct line, and I am thoroughly stuck.
Best regards
Wendy
PS Another bit of circumstantial stuff - the Chandlers who joined up with the Armstrongs when Elizabeth married George in 1857 were pretty strict Primitive Methodists. They too baptised their children in batches. I wonder if the Armstrongs were too? Maybe their patchy baptism record is simply because they had to wait for a Methodist minister to pass by? And if one didn't, then they just didn't bother with baptism? I have something very similar in Kent, with a Catholic family living in a Protestant parish.
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Re your PS Wendy; the children were baptised in the established church so it couldn't have been a case of waiting for a methodist minister to float by. But non-conformity must be a possibilty particularly as you know the Chandlers were of that persuasion.
John - my post of 7 May 07.08 has what I think needs checking
Regards
David
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Hello, Well that didn't reveal anything extra from the PRs up to 1812.
The only Armstrongs at Ravensden are the baptisms of Mary, Edith, Elizabeth, Ann & John that we already know; plus the burial of Sarah age 3 in 1810. All children of John & Sarah. There is no baptism of a William c 1792 or indeed of Sarah 1807. There is no marriage of John to Sarah.
The only Armstrongs in Upper Gravenhurst are the ones we know, children of Thomas & Phoebe Wisson, plus their marriage in 1788. The burials were Sarah in 1797 daughter of Thomas & Phoebe, & William 7 Aug 1807. No confirmation that he was child of Thomas & Phoebe.
No Armstrongs at Wilden prior to 1812.
Wilstead had baptisms of John 1761 & William 1754 to John & Edith Armstrong; and Thomas 1766 & William 1769 to Thomas & Christian Armstrong. Thomas married Christian Fiddes on 19 Apr 1766, & Christian Armstrong burial on 27 Oct 1794. As you say John married Edith at Houghton Conquest in 1753.
No other likely candidates found.
Regards John
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Thankyou, John - nothing ventured, nothing learned, and though you didn't find anything we didn't already know, it was worth the effort and I am very grateful.
At least the Wilstead stuff supports the IGI information - again just two Armstrongs, of about the same age, Thomas who married Christian in Wilstead and John who probably married Edith in Houghton Conquest nearby. Some of Thomas's descendants seem to have stayed in Wilstead - there are a lot of baptisms and marriages within his probable line. John and Edith's children don't seem to be in the picture at all, so I guess they moved on.
Re: Ravensden, there is therefore at least one undocumented child, Sarah, b about 1807 and buried in 1810.
UNLESS she was Sarah Ann - there IS a baptism on the IGI for an Ann of John and Sarah in 1807, who was baptised along with a Thomas. As they already had an Ann, who didn't get buried till 1816, this seems a bit odd?
So I guess we just have to take William 1790-1792-ish (depending which census return you look at!) at face value. He said he was born in Ravensden, and never moved more than 3 miles away - first to Wilden and then to Thurleigh. His children have the right names, even though they were common names. If he was born in Ravensden then he is the son of John and Sarah, simply because there is no other option. He either wasn't baptised at all, or got left off somehow! There is even a possibility of other unbaptised children as there is a big gap between Ann in 1791 and Edith in 1798 based on David's BVRI findings re birth years. Previously they had been having a child every second year.
Thanks again for the effort - :)
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Question - is it my connection, or is the IGI unobtainable? I just can't get to it at all now, after having only intermittent availability since last weekend.
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The IGI is responding well, just tried it & got an answer straight back.
Wendy, have you discussed William's parents with Darren Hopkinson on Genes Reunited; he's just sent me a reply doubting the Upper Gravenhurst connection.
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Talk about timing!
I am literally at this moment "talking" to Darren via email and G-R!
He says he has always doubted the UG connection but allowed himself to be persuaded by another G-R member.....he seems to like the idea of William 1792 REALLY being Ravensden born of John and Sarah.
Intriguing that your assay today into the Ravensden records didn't turn up Ann and Thomas of John and Sarah on 28 Sep 1807? They are in the IGI batch for Ravensden, which are allegedly extracted records.
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That is interesting what you say about Ann & Thomas in Sept 1807 - I will have another look at the Archives on Monday. Could they be recorded later ie. after 1812 ?. so maybe they will be on the post 1812 microfiche. Secondly this Ann of 1807, is she a replacement for the one b 1791 baptised in Nov 1802 ? If so where's the burial of the first Ann.
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Hi, John - posted this earlier today:
"Re: Ravensden, there is therefore at least one undocumented child, Sarah, b about 1807 and buried in 1810.
UNLESS she was Sarah Ann - there IS a baptism on the IGI for an Ann of John and Sarah in 1807, who was baptised along with a Thomas. As they already had an Ann, who didn't get buried till 1816, this seems a bit odd?"
IGI Batch No: for them both is C148781 covering 1565 - 1875
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The other thing you might double check John, are the three 1802 baptisms where the BVRI has the entries dated 1789, 1791 and 1800 - are ages actually shown in the PR?
I've always had doubts about the UG connection. There's no apparent documented link; the census birthplace doesn't support it; and it appears that someone has found the right name at the right time on the IGI and made an enormous unsupported assumption.
The fact that Thomas and Phoebe were the first Armstrongs in UG makes it more likely that the William buried in 1807 was their son born 1792
I can't see a burial or marriage for Ann christened 1807, nor can I find her in a census. Given that her elder sister Ann was still alive in 1807 I'm very suspicious about her name and agree with Wendy that this could be an error in the PR
Did either John or Sarah leave a will?
Regards
David
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Morning David, Yes this detail was noted yesterday.
On 15 Nov 1802 baptisms at Ravensden to John (labourer) & Sarah Armstrong.
Eliz age 13 (= 1789)
Ann age 11 (= 1791)
John age 7 months (= 1802)
Just reviewed Genes Reunited trees; there are 8 people who have William Armstrong 1792 who also have Thomas 1763 & Phoebe Wisson 1767.
Regards John
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Moaning
It's the sheep mentality. What's their evidence, other than they saw it in an online tree so it must be right? The fact that he probably died age 15 seems to have been ignored - these trees that are cobbled together just using the IGI often miss vital information from burials.
So presumably you're going to look at William's two marriages tomorrow to see if they provide any clues? You might get lucky and find the witnesses add something.
I have a nasty feeling that William is going to come down to "on the balance of probabilities he was an unbaptised son of John and Sarah"!
28 here again today - then dropping + rain, but brightening up on Thursday, and hot again next weekend. Looking good for you!
Regards
David
PS Just one more snippet - Thomas Armstrong aged 90 was buried at UG on 2 Sept 1846, and he was in the 1841 age 85 born in county
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Regarding information from burials, I have found a bit more about the Wilstead lot. I located - and John has confirmed from the PRs - a Thomas Armstrong married to Christian Fiddes, and a John Armstrong married to an Edith, who were producing children in the 1750-1770 period.
Having turned up a burial for a Sarah Armstrong w/o William in Sep 1752, I then found a burial for a William in Sep 1765. And a baptism for Thomas son of William and Sarah, on 21 Apr 1734. These all came from Ancestry's Bedfordshire Parish and Probate records, which has a sizeable chunk of the Wilstead parish records.
The FHO pay-per-view website has what looks like all of the NBI for Bedfordshire, and the burials mentioned above are all there.
So we have a William and a Sarah, who married somewhere, and moved to Wilstead before 1734, possibly with at least one child named John. In 1734 they had a son named Thomas.
Sarah died and was buried 26 Sep 1752. William MAY have died in Sep 1765 - but this burial could have been that of the son of John and Edith b 1754, as no age is given.
Thomas married Christian Fiddes in 1766 - they had two sons, Thomas b 1766 and William b 1769.
John married Edith - perhaps Edy Grange from Houghton Conquest in 1753 - and produced William b 1754 and John b 1760.
I then found two burials in Maulden -
Eddey ARMSTRONG Date 3 Jan 1770 Aged – Place Maulden Description St Mary Denomination Anglican County code BDF
John ARMSTRONG Date 9 Nov 1773 Aged – Place Maulden Description St Mary Denomination Anglican County code BDF
Sadly no age is given to help determine whether these are the parents of John b 1760-ish in Wilstead. They died quite young if they are - both only in their 40s or 50s.
Amongst all the other burials for John Armstrongs, there is really only one that can be linked to John b 1760, son of John and Edith, and that's John Armstrong, buried in Ravensden in 1826 aged 66.
A John Armstrong was buried in Wilstead in 1872 aged 73 - he is most likely to have been the son of William Armstrong and Mary, who began producing children in 1800, with John as their eldest. William could have been either the son of Thomas and Christian or the son of John and Edith. I favour the son of Thomas and Christian, purely because of age!
All highly circumstantial, of course, but worth pursuing...?
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I've checked the two Maulden burials against the transcript, and it all says is Eddey wife of John, labourer, and 1773, John labourer
Regards
David
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Thanks, David -
At least that confirms that Eddey WAS John's wife, rather than another husky labourer baptised Edward!
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David, Yes I'll be looking at looking at the 2 marriages of William Armstrong (1) to Elizabeth Franklin at Wilden 1816 & (2) to Ann Rench (ne Gammons) at Thurleigh 1827. I also ask them to get me out the Ravensden - 'Overseers Account Book' (1801 - 1831) to see if any Armstrongs are included.
Plus baptisms of any Armstrongs in Ravensden. Thurleigh, Wilden
+ marriage of John Armstrong to Jane ? at Ravensden.
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Just searched Beds Archives online for 'Armstrong' AND 'Gravenhurst' & there's an entry dated 1726 about a 21 year lease of property at Gravenhust (& Clophill) to a Thomas Armstrong of Houghton Conquest & John Armstrong e.s. of Thomas ?
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John -
The overseers account book has a population listing for 1831 here:
http://domino.bedfordshire.gov.uk/bedscc/sdcountyrec.nsf/web/thepage/Ravensden+Population+Listing+-+May+1831
This includes just one Armstrong, John Jnr with a household of 3 - 1 adult male and two females. Which fits with wife Jane and first child Sally/Sarah.
I also found the reference to Thomas and John of HC - Thomas is included in the 1722 Beds Pollbook as voting in HC. There are many references to a Thomas Armstrong of this period as being a JP. I discarded him, simply because you had to be pretty important to vote in those days, if I remember rightly, and our lot were all labourers....
However, I have been working this morning with the Beds section of the NBI (as per the Family History Online website) and it seems the Armstrongs were pretty mobile within a confined area. In most places they just arrive, and are almost always the only family in the village. Which makes tracking their movements a bit easier.
Based on where they were buried and where the IGI says they married and begat their children, I have put together a long chain of Armstrongs going back to another John and Sarah who were living in Riseley in the early 1700s. It is TOTALLY circumstantial - not a shred of real proof and based only on commonsense and IGI/NBI matching - but it gives a number of other places to search for Armstrongs.
These places include: Riseley - Wilstead - Cople. There is also one marriage in Haynes in 1799 and a marriage in Puddington in 1729.
I hope you can find a clue as to our mystery William in his marriage records - whilst I am pretty sure he belongs to John and Sarah (if only because there's nobody else he CAN belong to!) it would be nice to have something tangible.
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The Haynes marriage is of William Armstrong of Wilshamstead and Mary Warren otp. Per transcript
David
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Cheers, David - that confirms one of my links.
The Haynes marriage was indeed of William of Wilshamstead, younger son of Thomas Armstrong and Christian Fiddes.
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And the Cople family started with the marriage on 11 Oct 1779 between William Eamstrong
and Mary Robins. No further detail in the transcript unfortunately
Mary Armstrong wife of William was buried on 13 Apr 1801
There's also an entry on A2A
Maulden parish register
OVERSEERS of the Poor, Apprenticeship
FILE - Bond (£20) Wm Batterson of Cople - Cordwainer, to Maulden Church Wardens re apprenticeship of Wm Armstrong. - ref. P31/14/53 - date: 12 Mar 1766
It's possible that the William who married in Cople was from Maulden
David
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A William Armstrong of Manor Farm, is credited for introducing Weslyan Methodism into Wilshamstead. He died 23 July 1845 age 76, his wife Mary died on 17 dec 1844 age 69. A commemorative tablet to them is affixed to entrance hallway of the modern chapel built in 1967.
More details are in the book Wilshamstead Homestead of Friends.
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Thanks, David - it's starting to come together.
And thanks, John - the Wesleyan William must be the son of Thomas and Christian bap 1769, who married Mary Warren of Haynes and raised his family in Wilstead.
So at least some of the Armstrong family WERE Methodists, then. Now, if there were no Methodist chapel in a village or town, would a travelling Methodist minister be allowed to use the parish church to do baptisms?
Some results of my labours:
The NBI has 13 John Armstrong burials in Bedfordshire - assuming that all parishes have been included by Bedfordshire FHS on the database they have provided to Family History Online. The list looks pretty complete to me, but I am not a Beds expert!
I have identified all of them - or dismissed them because they were buried before 1760.
There is only one burial that could be the John baptised 1762 in Wilstead, and that is:
John ARMSTRONG Date 14 Nov 1826 Aged 66 Place Ravensden Description All Saints Denomination Anglican County code BDF.
It is, of course, possible that John bap 1762 in Wilstead could have moved out of county. But if he did not, then the Wilstead-Ravensden link is looking possible.
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Even if a methodist wanted to, and was permitted to, use the Church of England for
baptisms (unlikely) they still wouldn't be entered in the parish register
I've just edited my previous post re Cople
If you check A2A there are plenty of hits against Armstrong searching against Beds
& Luton etc - interesting one is Thurleigh where it's clear that the Armstrongs were
baptists, who don't do infant baptisms
David
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Two points, David:
"Maulden parish register
OVERSEERS of the Poor, Apprenticeship
FILE - Bond (£20) Wm Batterson of Cople - Cordwainer, to Maulden Church Wardens re apprenticeship of Wm Armstrong. - ref. P31/14/53 - date: 12 Mar 1766
It's possible that the William who married in Cople was from Maulden"
Again, supposition, but it fits.
John and Edith were in Wilstead till 1760-ish when John was born. They appear to have both died in Maulden in 1773 and 1770 respectively. Which would have left two orphans: William aged 19 and John aged 13 when their father died.
And an interesting point about adult baptisms - William the Wesleyan and Mary baptised their children in Wilstead more or less as they were born until 1808, when they introduced Methodism to the village. They then had at least three more children, Joshua in 1808, Thomas in 1812, and Elizabeth in 1817, who were baptised in a job lot in 1829. All are on the IGI, and the batch includes all the children of John, their eldest son, as well.
I haven't got as far as A2A for the Armstrongs yet - still poring over the IGI and the NBI!
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from the BFHS library (partially currently in someone's spare bedroom)
Bedford St Paul's Methodist Church Class Book
For the H.C. society in Bedford circuit, this lists a John Amstrong, gent of Houghton Conquest in each of the years 1792, 1793, 1794, 1804 and is on, as A J Armstrong, the List of Local Preachers Names 1806.
....
re William & Mary of Wilshamstead, they had daughter Mary Anne who died in 1825 age 19.
John
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....... an extract from the 'Houghton Conquest Methodist Church' booklet ..... The Early Years....
The earliest evidence that we have of Methodism in the village of Houghton Conquest is that a certificate was granted in 1774 for meetings to be held in the home of Thomas Potter, which was owned by John Armstrong.
It then names John Armstrong as a member in 1792 & A J Armstrong as their first preacher in 1806.
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But supposition based on evidence - a William Armstrong of Maulden was apprenticed to a cordwainer in Cople. It seems as though in 1766 William was a charge on the parish so was apprenticed to the Cople cordwainer, a common occurence. Assuming he completed his apprenticeship, he would have acquired settlement in Cople.
There were no Armstrong entries in Cople parish register prior to the 1779 marriage of William Eamstrong, of the parish of Cople. Unfortunately in the Cople transcript the occupation of William Armstrong is not given in any of the baptism entries of his children.
A William Armstrong age 76 was buried at Cople on 11 Feb 1828 (JOHN - any chance you could check this entry tomorrow to see if his occupation was mentioned?)
Regards
David
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I have found a possible burial for Thomas Armstrong b 1766, son of Thomas and Christian in Wilstead - I missed him first time round because he was buried in Holwell, which is now Hertfordshire, I believe.
In 1841 he is a farmer aged 75 and living in Holwell at Rectory Farm with wife Elizabeth.
There is a possible marriage to Elizabeth Dines of Haynes, 11 Oct 1793 - the Wilstead Armstrongs seem to have liked marrying girls from Haynes, and there is evidence from A2A which I have now had a quick look at, that a William (probably William Jnr) did eventually move to Haynes.
Burial was
NBI: Thomas ARMSTRONG Date 7 Dec 1849 Aged 84 Place Holwell Description St Peter Denomination Anglican County code BDF Quality 100
I have now found his will on A2A and ordered a PDF copy. It may cast some light....
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AHA!
It will take a lot of time to decipher this will, but some things are quickly clear:
He had at least 8 children, and names the husbands of the married daughters:
Christiana
Mary
Jane
Elizabeth
William
Thomas
John
George
His wife was Elizabeth
So there's an almost certain link - Christiana, named for his mother Christian Fiddes.
So who the hell was Thomas b 1756 who raised his family and died in Upper Gravenhurst?
EDIT: got his birth year wrong!
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:D hello Wendy & David 8) put the flags out ...
Marriage at Wilden on 24 Dec 1816 of William Armstrong, bachelor of Ravensden to Elizabeth Franklin, spinster, otp; witnesses Thomas Deighton & Sarah Franklin. The Banns also say William Armstrong of Ravensden.
Marriage at Thurleigh on 1 July 1827 of William Armstrong, widower, otp to Ann Wrench, widow, otp ; witnesses Joseph Cockins & Robt Favell.
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David, The burial at Cople on 11 Feb 1828 of William Armstrong age 76 gave no additional information.
On relooking at Ravensden baptisms, I now find those of Thomas age 2 yrs, & Ann infant on Sept 28 1807, children to John & Sarah Arnstrong, labourer.
I could not find a marriage in Ravensden of a John Armstrong to a Sarah in 1828-1832.
Wilden baptisms, children of William & Elizabeth Armstrong
Sarah 26 Oct 1817
John 19 May 1822
William 18 May 1822
Elizabeth 17 Oct 1824
Wilden burials
Elizabeth Armstrong on 24 Feb 1825 age 29
+ 23 Dec 1824 Eliz Armstrong age 6 months
6 April 1823 John Armstrong age 1 year
4 March 1820 Elizabeth Armstrong age 2 years
OK the 1824 Eliz is the one baptised Oct 1824 possibly, & John is the one baptised May 1822 - where the baptism for Elizabeth b 1818 ?
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The Ravensden Accounts Books is great, it has many, many pages; you need lots of time & good eyesight to extract information. The book starts in May 1801 & progresses through to 1831, itemising payments made to local people as 'benefit' or for payment for goods received. John Armstrong & just the surname Armstrong is mentioned many times. Examples :-
1 June 1801 paid to John Armstrong - Ill 0.6.0 (6 shillings)
2 Feb 1802 Paid to Armstrong- in need 0.2.0
20 Feb 1802 Paid to Armstrong for 6 quarts of beer 0.2.3
Other payments made to Armstrong & others in exchange for wood / faggots
Interesting bits emerge such as -----
Feb 1802 Paid midwife for Long & Armstrong 0.5.0
March 12 1802 Paid to Widow Froler ? for doing for Armstrong child 0.2.0
March 26 1802 Paid Mr Leech for burying Armstrong's & Dayton's children 0.3.0
.....
Dec 4 1807 Paid midwife for Armstrong's wife 0.3.6
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Great job, JohnP!
So for William 1792, all we are missing is a baptism - which doesn't seem to exist. I believe there is enough evidence now to make the assumption that William is an unbaptised child of John and Sarah of Ravensden, and is NOT the son of Thomas and Phoebe of Upper Gravenhurst.
So my ggg-grandfather John Armstrong b about 1800 and your ancestor William b 1792 were brothers.
Ravensden:
The Ravensden account book shows an Armstrong birth in late 1801/early 1802 followed by a "doing for" (laying out?) and a burial. We don't know how quickly the overseers made payments, so accurate timing isn't possible.
The birth could have been John, bap Nov 1802 - although he was allegedly 7 mths old at baptism. But I haven't found an Armstrong burial in Ravensden in 1801-1802. If the entries all referred to the same child, then that's another mystery!
One thing's clear - the Armstrongs were pretty poor, and seem to have been a charge on the parish at that time.
Wilden
I have the burial for the first Elizabeth, but found no baptism. There is however a baptism for a Sarah in 1817 - she would have been two at the date of the burial of the second Elizabeth. Was she actually Sarah Elizabeth? (e.g. I was christened Christine Wendy, but have always been known as Wendy.) Or did they perhaps change their minds after she was baptised, and call her after her mother instead of her grandmother?
Other Armstrongs
I have made a lot of progress on them, will post separately!
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John/David -
I believe I have made a link between the Riseley/Wilstead Armstrongs and the Ravensden family. It's a bit tenuous and supported only by probable burials and extracted IGI baptisms - though David has proved a few of the links from parish records. But the line runs as follows:
John Armstrong and Sarah of Riseley - b about 1675 - origin unknown.
In Riseley from 1700 onwards. Had 8 children, most of whom died and were buried in Riseley. Survivors were Sarah 1700 who married a Wm Tomes in 1731 and William 1701, who married a Sarah about 1729 and had one child in Riseley.
John was buried in Riseley in 1727, and Sarah in 1746.
William 1701 and Sarah - Riseley and Wilstead
First child, John 1729, bap Riseley. Married Edith (perhaps Edy Grange of Houghton Conquest, 1753).
First tenuous link: The only possible burials for William and Sarah are in Wilstead in 1765 and 1752 respectively. They were certainly not buried in Riseley.
Second child: Thomas 1734, bap Wilstead. Married Christian Fiddes 1766. Thomas and Christian had two sons: Thomas b 1766 and William b 1769. Thomas became a wealthy farmer in Icklelford and Holwell. William became a farmer in Wilstead and founded Methodism in the village.
John 1729 and Edith - Wilstead and Maulden
John and Edith/Eddey were buried in Maulden in 1773 and 1770 respectively. PRs say Eddey was John's wife. These are the only possible burials for the couple.
William bap 17 Mar 1754, Wilstead.
Apprenticed by Maulden overseers to Wm Batterson of Cople - Cordwainer. Settled in Cople and raised a family.
Married Mary Robins in Cople in 1779.
William buried in Cople 1828 aged 76. Mary wife of William buried in Cople 1801.
John bap 6 Sep 1761, Wilstead.
Second tenuous link: The only possible burial in the NBI for John 1761 is in Ravensden in 1826 aged 66.
John married a Sarah and produced the Ravensden family. From whom both JohnP and I descend - me from John 1802 and John from William 1792.
The Houghton Conquest/Ampthill Armstrongs were "posh" - the earliest one seems to have married into the nobility. They were farmers and local worthies, JPs etc. I have found in other people's trees some evidence that they came from Ireland. I have not found a link between them and "our" Armstrongs.
Nor have I found a possible origin for Thomas of Upper Gravenhurst.
They are probably all related one way or the other - just a matter of finding the links!
Feel free to shoot any or all of the above down in flames.....
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Hi Wendy
Have you checked with BLARS to see if there are any wills? (if you have already covered this I apologise - the thread's getting a bit long and I may have missed it!)
Do we know what John's occupation in Ravensden was? Could he have been apprenticed out by Maulden as well, which would explain his presence in Ravensden?
I have an inbuilt prejudice against mobility of people at that time, probably because from 1450 onwards my main line stayed in the adjoining villages of Henlow and Arlesey. Other people say that our ancestors were much more mobile than we realise. There obviously was movement but I always ask why if it involved a move of more than 5 miles.
So... why would William and Sarah have moved from Riseley to Wilstead. Baptism and burial evidence, both positive and negative (ie they weren't buried in Riseley), fits.
Often where movement is involved it boils down to the balance of probabilities, and circumstantial evidence. On that basis your scenario looks good.
So far as the UG family goes it must be possible that they were from another county, although both give Beds as their birthplace in 1841. In 1851 though, Phoebe has N.K. so perhaps Beds wasn't right. Whilst neither 1841 nor burial ages are very reliable, Thomas's age is consistent at c1756, and there's nothing in the IGI for either Beds or Herts. Possibly the overseers accounts might throw up a hint - has the marriage entry been checked by the way? My marriages are always otp, but other people's often seem to give a parish of residence!
Must dash, a visitor from Beds arrives on Thursday and the house is a tip!
Regards
David
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Hi David -
The best info I have on John 1760's occupation is just plain labourer, listed as such in 1803 on the Ravensden National Defence Volunteers list, found by JohnP last week.
http://www.ravensden.org.uk/csscontentshi.htm
The same site gives a list in 1803 of those who owned waggons, horses, carts etc in case of emergencies - John wasn't amongst them.
JP's discoveries in the Overseers account book indicate that he was "on the parish" for at least some of the time in the early 1800's.
His son John b 1802 was an Ag Lab in 1841 and 1851
And John's only son William b 1837 was also an Ag Lab in 1861. He eventually left the village, presumably looking for work, and went to Derbyshire (labourer 1871) and Walsall (railway labourer 1881).
I haven't come up with anything yet to suggest WHY the moves were made, except that of William of Wilstead/Maulden being apprenticed to Cople in 1766. But the burials and baptisms do seem to show that they did move about - I am currently exploring settlement orders to see if there is anything relevant.
Thanks so much for all the help. And JohnP too!
I feel I am getting somewhere....
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I'm intrigued by the marriage of William Armstrong and Sarah Prudden on 24 August 1729 at Puddington (Podington), which is only 5 miles from Riseley. Unfortunately the first child, John, was christened a moth earlier, on 28 July 1729, at Riseley.
It might be worth checking the original PRs to see if there is any possibility of an error in either of the entries which would make the chronology work
David
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LOL - I came up with that one too - but didn't put it in because it's a bit dubious.
There is, of course, a possibility that the naughty Sarah Prudden and William 1701 actually did have a child before their marriage while she was working away from home in Riseley, perhaps as a servant or even a labourer on a farm.
Then they did a quick nip back to her home the following month to get married once the nasty evidence of their misbehaviour had been delivered (and probably left behind with its granny in Riseley whilst they tied the knot) .....
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If they weren't married I think the PR would have him as John Prudden bastard son of Sarah, but the dates and places look too close to be coincidence, and there are no other children baptised to William and Sarah
Worth a closer look at the PRs I think
Regards
David
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Hello, David, hope everything is spik & span at home.
I have Riseley PR transcript to hand & will be checking up later.
I can confirm the baptism on July 28 1729 is John, son of William & Sarah Armstrong.
I also have another survivor of John & Sarah Armstrong. Daughter Mary baptised Jan 9 1707, could have married William Dawson on May 29 1732.
I can not find a burial for her. For info, 1st John buried 1712 died of comsumption, & 2nd John & sister Rebecca buried 1716 died of smallpox
John
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Not sure, David.
Provided William was prepared to acknowledge his fatherhood, the child may well have been baptised as his. I have a few such instances in my own tree, as some of my ancestors - especially my Cambs ag labs - were very naughty!
I have drawn a complete blank on Thomas 1756 of Upper Gravenhurst, and his wife Phoebe. There are a few Wisson/Wissen/Whisson folk in Beds, but no Phoebe. The only record of their "births" in the IGI are member entries extrapolated backwards by 25 and 20 years respectively from their marriage entry - totally unreliable in my experience. There are also Wissons in Cambs, but still no Phoebe.
One thought, which I have looked at briefly without success is that Thomas was at least 10 years older than Phoebe. Her birth, according to 1851 census, was about 1770, some 14 years after his apparent birth of 1756 calculated from 1841 and the NBI death record. Was she a second marriage? No matter really, I guess, because even so, I can't find him! LOL.
I hate to say it, but more and more he is looking as if he fits between William born 1754 and John born 1761/2 in Wilstead to John and Edith. Especially as he named his eldest daughter Edith.
JohnP - I also have Mary as the other surviving child of John and Sarah, but couldn't see a marriage or a burial for her. I tried to be brief with my outlining of the family earlier.
But oh, dear, consumption and smallpox. What privileged lives we lead these days by comparison.
I think I will stick these "unproven" Armstrongs on my website so you can both look at what I have found in detail, rather than trying to explain it here. I daren't hook them into my tree proper on G-R or whatever, as god knows what errors it could bring about if it's not correct!
Now that John and I do seem almost 99% sure to be related, I have opened my G-R tree for John to look at all my horrible Armstrong descendants! :D
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Hi All,
Sorry for joining this thread so late; I'm a newbie to RootsChat. Both Wendy and John have been in contact with me through GR so I figured it would be easier to just join in here. Phew, I didn't realise quite how long this thread would be till I got here!
Firstly, many thanks from me to all three of you for all your research.
Secondly, it would seem sensible to alert those people on GR who are known to have the erroneous William of Ravensden <-> Thomas/Phoebe of Upper Gravenhurst link. Unless anyone has already done so, I'll volunteer.
Kind Regards,
Darren.
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Hello Darren, & welcome to Rootschat- glad you find it usefull
Now you're on here , please raise your own topics on the relevant board & see what response you get.
regards John
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Thanks for alerting me about this thread, JohnP.
Like Darren I am amazed at the amount of research that has been done on this subject and thank you.
I'm another one who has Phoebe Wisson and Thomas Armstrong as the parents of William b. 1792, taken from the IGI. However, I also have the information of their son William being buried Aug.7, 1797, and didn't update my genesr tree. (oops)
William b. 1792 and Ann Gammons/Wrench were my ggggrandparents.
I'm now going to read all the replies again - there is so much information to digest!!!!
Judi (Armstrong)
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Hi, Judi -
How do you descend from William and Ann?
I am pretty certain we have established that William WAS Ravensden born - there is no proof by way of a baptism, but the circumstantial evidence is just about overwhelming.
And if he was Ravensden born, then he is the son of John and Sarah - there just weren't any others around to be his parents!
The IGI batch has no other Armstrongs. The 1803 Muster Roll shows only one Armstrong (though this might not be conclusive, as others might have refused?). The 1831 population count shows only one Armstrong, i.e. John Junior. And 1841 shows only one Armstrong family - John Junior and his second wife Eleanor. Poor Jane was long gone....
I would be happier if I could discover the origins of Thomas and Phoebe. They may have been married in Upper Gravenhurst, but there is no evidence that either of them were baptised there. So where did they come from? I have drawn a complete blank with both of them.
Come to that, where did John Senior in Ravensden come from at about the same time?
Still, I guess it would be no fun if it were easy.....
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Hello Judi. Welcome to this Armstrong thread. Hope you find information useful. As we all now realise, the Thomas A & Phoebe Wisson link to William A of Ravensden in all probabilty is incorrect. There was a William A of Upper Gravenshurst but I think he got buried there in 1807.
Best regards John
PS. Hello Wendy
PPS. David says hello
PPPS - I'm actually with him at the moment
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I'm descended from William's (1792) son Eli, Eli's son William, William's son Frederick, Frederick's son Douglas - then me!
I know this is getting a bit modern for what we're all looking for, but do you think that William b. 1820 was the son of William 1792 and brother of Eli? He's buried in the same row as Eli in the graveyard at St. Peter's in Thurleigh, along with Eli's wife Mary Ann, and William's granddaughter Jinnie. (the only 4 Armstrong's with decipherable headstones that I could find there).
Right John, 1807 - don't know where I got 1797 from.
Back to my reading now.
Judi
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Hi Judi
The William b c1820 who appeared in the 1841 census was found by John in Wilden parish register as being the son of William's first marriage to Elizabeth Franklin
Wilden baptisms, children of William & Elizabeth Armstrong
Sarah 26 Oct 1817
John 19 May 1822
William 18 May 1822
Elizabeth 17 Oct 1824
He is therefore half brother to Eli
Regards
David
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Thanks, David :)
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Good morning, everyone!
Thanks, judi, for the graveyard information. Every little helps...
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Hello All,
I don't know if any of you have been in contact with Jim Armstrong in Manitoba, Canada? His ancestors were direct descendants of the Wilstead branch, & there is a book about the village which mentions the Armstrong/Methodist church link.
Jim & I have helped each other on various projects over the years, and one of the earliest things we found was a will from Jan 17th 1723 naming a John & Sarah Armstrong from Wilstead. However, this didn't get us very far!
Both Jim & I are certain our branches link, & also that the Thurleigh. Ravensden & Wilden groups do too. We always felt that the second John b 1714 in Riseley was the link. (The elder John died in infancy in 1711).
There are branches from Wilstead in NZ, Oz, Canada & the US still thriving now.
Cheers,
Bob
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Hello All,
I noticed you mentioned Christian Fiddes who wed Thomas Armstrong (c21st Apr `1734 in Wilstead) married in 1766. Jim & I believe she was of Scottish origins, born near Jedburgh. Family folklore said we were from Scottish stock originally, so this possibility interested me.
However, I joined both the Armstrong Clan Associations 25 years ago & still can't prove our ancient roots. I think the DNA route will be the way to go.
Cheers,
Bob
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Hello All,
Sorry for clogging things up, but you are right about Christie b 1794 in Ickleford, Herts. I have all these shown on my tree, plus the Shingay, N. Pagnell, Haynes, St. Neots, Grafham, L. Stukely Holwell & Upper Stondon links.
William A & Phoebe Forster in Ickleford had 8 kids, 6 in U. Stondon, the last 2 in Shilington.
Cheers,
Bob
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Hello Judi & everyone,
It seems obvious that our John (c6th Sep 1761 in Wilstead, son of John & Edith (nee Grange) is probably the one who wed Sarah. They in turn produced the 7 Ravensden children , eg Mary c29 Apr 1787. The death age of John Armstrong on 14th Nov 1826 age 66 fits perfectly.
I honestly believe this to be the case, but please don't hesitate to contradict this supposition.
Cheers,
Bob
PS Cousin Jim & I always thought there was a connection from Riseley via John c1714, but it looks like it happened a little later!
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Don't apologise, Bob - it's all grist to the Armstrong mill!
Since I got your PM earlier today, I have been trying to put the links we have surmised into a single succinct document, but it's difficult to keep it short! David and John, with their access to the various parish records and the BVRI have been of enormous help in figuring out how everyone ties up
I have explored the link to the "posh" Armstrongs of Houghton Conquest/Ampthill area too, and haven't found one - yet. I also had a quick look at the Elstow branch, simply because of the name Edith, but they seem to spring fully-grown onto the IGI in 1788 and are untraceable before that. I can't tie in to the Upper Gravenhurst clan either. But here's what we have found so far, with big apologies for the sheer length of it!
John b about 1670 and Sarah b about 1670 - both somewhere other than Riseley - married before 1700, probably not in Riseley, and settled in Riseley.
They had 8 children, all baptised in Riseley, between 1700 and 1716, most of whom died very young. The only son who survived into adulthood was William b 1701.
John and Sarah were both buried in Riseley in 1727 and 1746 respectively.
There is no burial for William b 1701 in Riseley - so he clearly moved on. The only suitable burial entry in the NBI for him is in Wilstead on 5 Sep 1765.
A William Armstrong and his wife Sarah had two children. John baptised in 1729 in Riseley and Thomas baptised in 1734 in Wilstead. There is a marriage of a William Armstrong and Sarah Prudden, Puddington, 24 Aug 1729 - but it's a bit suspect as it's AFTER the birth of John. Not impossible though!
William and Sarah were both buried in Wilstead in 1765 and 1752.
Their second son Thomas remained in Wilstead and married Christian Fiddes in 1766. He and Christian were buried in Wilstead in 1818 and 1794 respectively. They had two sons, Thomas b 1766, who went on to become a comfortably off farmer in Holwell (I have his will), and William b 1769 who founded Wesleyanism in Wilstead and raised a large family. One of his sons moved to Haynes.
For their first son, John, there is only one suitable burial in the NBI - that of John Armstrong, labourer, in Maulden in 1773. Also in Maulden, there is the burial of Eddy Armstrong, wife of John,labourer, who was buried in 1770.
A John Armstrong married Edy Grange in Houghton Conquest in 1753. A John Armstrong and his wife Edith had two sons in Wilstead - William b 1754 and John b 1761. There are no burials for any of them in Wilstead.
In the Maulden Overseers of the Poor book, there is an entry as follows:
OVERSEERS of the Poor, Apprenticeship
FILE - Bond (£20) Wm Batterson of Cople - Cordwainer, to Maulden Church Wardens re apprenticeship of Wm Armstrong. - ref. P31/14/53 - date: 12 Mar 1766.
So William b 1754 went off to Cople to pursue his new trade. In 1779 he married Mary Robins, and you know the rest.....
As for what happened to John, nothing has yet been found. But there is again only one possible burial for a John Armstrong b 1760-1761 and that is John Armstrong, buried at the age of 66 in Ravensden in 1826. His wife was Sarah, who died in 1813 aged 47. John does not appear on the marriage records or the baptism records of Ravensden, so they came from elsewhere. They seem to have been the only Ravensden Armstrong family.
In 1803 there was only one John Armstrong on the Ravensden Local Defence register. In the same year there was no Armstrong on the list of owners of carts or horses, so he was not a man of means.
He and Sarah had 8 children in Ravensden between 1787 and 1807, baptised in batches at irregular intervals. One daughter was baptised Edith - perhaps for his mother?
It also seems 99% certain that there was a ninth child, William b about 1792. This William is usually identified by his descendants as the son of Thomas Armstrong and Phoebe Wisson of Upper Gravenhurst.
However, in Census returns he gave his birthplace as Ravensden. His marriage record and his banns for his first marriage in Wilden state "bachelor of Ravensden". He and his first wife Elizabeth Franklin had five children in Wilden, of whom three died. The first daughter was named Sarah and the second Elizabeth. The first son was named William and the second John. After Elizabeth's death in 1825 he moved to Thurleigh and married Ann Wrench, nee Gammons, with whom he had three more children, of whom the eldest was named Sarah. His son William also settled in Thurleigh and raised a family. Both are present in the 1841 census, and they are the only Armstrong family in the village.
So there are all the links we have made between Riseley, Wilstead, Maulden, Ravensden, Wilden and Thurleigh.
Hope it makes sense!
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Hello Bob, & welcome to RootsChat. Well you've been busy since I read your first posting at 9 am this morning. I haven't had chance to digest it all yet.
I have a link to Armstrongs of Ravensden/Thurleigh through marriage(s) into my Partridge family [David Cassidy isn't amongst them !] who spread themselves over the Sharnbrook/Riseley/Bletsoe/Thurleigh area, with some going off towards Eaton Socon.
Hello Wendy; David I know has had computer problems but I do suspect he is at this moment sunning himself by a drinking establishment en France.
Regards John
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Hello, JP - I trust you enjoyed your few days away? ;)
Bob seems to have made all the same links as us - nice when things start coming together!
Bob -
I had found Jos Armstrong and Sarah on the IGI - but they are in my "odds and sods" file for now, as I can't find a way to link to them at all. They have no children in the IGI, in Thurleigh or anywhere else in Bedfordshire, and I can't find a likely birth for Jos. (Josiah or Joseph, I guess).
I also have an unidentified Henry, b about 1802 in Cople according to census info, who married Maria Cambers in Cople in May 1826, and lived there till his death in 1876 aged 64. I thought at first he belonged to William and Mary - but Mary died in 1801. Any ideas?
A quick check on the IGI finds a Richard Armstrong who married Martha Games in Jan 1679 in Tempsford. A member entry gives a daughter of theirs named Ann, born about 1695 who died on 2 Mar 1732 in Tetworth, Hunts. Nothing else obvious.
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Hello Wendy,
Yes, Henry & Maria are on my tree. William c1754 wed secondly Mary Tatman in 1802 in Cople. After having 6 kids with his first wife, Mary Robins, he had Henry (adult chr in 1826 age 3 who wed Maria Cambers.They had 5 kids, firstly Hannah in 1827, who had the illeg John Nottingham Armstrong. This John wed Sarah Wood in Mile End, London in 1872.
Henry & Maria also had Mary c1829, George 1832 wed Sarah White, Joseph c1834 wed Emma Rawlins & Benjamin c1843.
George & Sarah had 3 kids ie Mary Annb 1850 who wed Charles Barcock, Ellen b 1858 & Elizabeth c 1860 in Eastcotts. All above Cople born except Elizabeth c1860.
These are on my tree which I can post, plus Riseley, & the surrounding counties
Cheers,
Bob
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Cheers, Bob - more fascinating stuff...
I am sure we will find eventually that they are all related one way or another. Armstrong is a borders name from the Debatable Land and our far flung forbears were probably border reivers and vagabonds and blackguards like the Scotts and the Kerrs!
It's noticeable that wherever the Armstrongs chose to settle, they were almost always the first and only Armstrong family in that village. The parents had rarely been married in the village where they bore their children, and it was only as they bore children who bore children that they started building the various communities we have found in places like Wilstead and Ravensden and Thurleigh. So they were quite clearly incomers - and most probably from outside the county.
In the meantime, the coincidences multiply, and as JP's quote says, from one of my favourite films of all time:
"Round in a spiral, like a wheel within a wheel..."
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Bob, Seems the Elizabeth Partridge you mention who married the policeman Armstrong was born Wimbledon, Surrey; & tracing her back thru census, her father came from Gloucestershire. I have not found any links of my Partridges to Surrey or West Country as yet. But thanks for the thought.
Do you have any other Partridge names that hail from North Beds or maybe across the fields into Northants.
Regards John
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Thanks so much, JP - and David - for all your help. And it probably isn't done with yet....! :D
Wendy - been re-reading this topic - how right you were ! this is going on & on :D
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No problem Bob, but I know someone with an interest in Peacocks - any from Southill ?
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JP - Guess you're right about this going on and on - so far my initial innocent request for info on the Ravensden Armstrongs has roped in about four other folk and we are all related...! Including your goodself.
Bob - is your tree paper based, or do you hold it on computer? And if on computer, are you on Genes-Reunited or any of the other family tree publishers?
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Well, Bob, family history in this internet age is a real community. The growth of sites like Rootschat, Genes Reunited and Ancestry means that you can find relatives, however distant, and "talk" to them via boards like this or via email and swap information. For instance, I "met" via G-R a fellow descendant of the Chandlers (the family Eliza Armstrong 1836 married into) who has provided me with the inscriptions from Eliza's headstone and that of her husband George, and I even have a photo of the memorial urn for my great-great aunt Louisa Chandler.
I have found Rootschat in particular to be incredibly useful. Folk like David (bedfordshire boy) and John give up hours of their own time to help others, and for my Cambridgeshire brick walls I had a huge amount of help from Keith Sherwood, another Rootschatter, who diligently pored over parish records for me (and a hundred others!) and produced masses of information.
The enormous growth in the popularity of "doing your family tree" has coincided with a vast increase in resources available online.
When I started just 7 years ago, the IGI and the LDS 1881 census were about the only available online sources.
Now we have census information from 1841 to 1901, with 1911 coming soon. Many family history societies are publishing parish record transcriptions on CD (I am involved with transcription for Kent FHS at the moment). People are submitting their family trees to Ancestry and Genes-Reunited in ever increasing numbers. Subscription sites give you access to archives like Boyds Marriage Index and Pallotts. And of course, for more recent history, the amazing FreeBMD is now nearly complete before about 1910 - a fantastic finding aid which lets you pinpoint certificates. FreeREG is planning the same task with parish registers, and in a few years time there will hardly be any need to visit a records office or book out an LDS film at all....
All of this makes it easy. People coming fresh to family research these days think it SHOULD be easy - and will often take the "easy" route. The much-cited parentage of William Armstrong b 1792 is a classic case - the only William in Bedfordshire on the IGI that fits that birthdate is William b in Upper Gravenhurst to Thomas and Phoebe. Ergo, he must be the one - even though his birthplace is given as Ravensden in the census info, and he spent his life living just a few miles from Ravensden at Wilden and Thurleigh. Once this is picked up on by others researching the same family, it is taken as fact. Even JohnP fell foul of this one!
My neighbour is fascinated by the length of time I spend messing about with my family - she said "Can I look for MY family tree on the internet?". I said: "It's not quite that easy - you will be able to find individuals through the census and the GRO records, but no-one will have done your tree for you!" WRONG! We sat down at my computer with a few basic facts about her granny, and after a couple of hours of census/BMD-hopping, had an outline going back to 1837. Then a quick Google hunt found a tree stretching back from one of her ancestors in the 1851 census all the way to 1650....and 2 separate matches on Genes-Reunited gave us similar datasets for other branches (and put her in touch with a long-lost cousin!) In just one afternoon's work, we did what it had taken me about 4 years to achieve with my own family!
And this is where the problem lies today.
I have stressed to my neighbour that it isn't enough to take other people's info at face value - she must find those links herself and be confident of them, and she must send for the certificates etc so she can be sure that the post-1837 links are all correctly made. But I doubt she will go to the trouble.
My quick afternoon's work could contain countless errors and mistaken links, and if she ever publishes the existing tree on Ancestry or G-R, all those errors will get out into the public domain, where they will be mistaken for fact.
Which is why it is so important to check and check - or enlist the aid of kind people like Rootschatters who will help.
Having said all that I am now convinced enough that John Armstrong who died in Ravensden in 1826 was the John Armstrong born to John and Edy Grange in Wilstead in 1760/1761 that I have joined him and his forbears up with the rest of my tree.
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Hello All,
Now that the Ravensden link is sorted, you may be interested in the Elstow branchwhich I did some work on last year, as follows:
A Samuel Armstrong born about 1750's wed Sarah. One of their girls Edy/Edith b 1785 c1788 in Elstow wed Samuel Busby on 1st Mar 1806, died Houghton C in 1841
Edith had an illeg son (by 1 month) called Samuel Busby Armstrong 16th Feb 1806 in Elstow. Samuel wed Ann Page of Goldington - a main Armstrong centre, in 1827. They had 10 kids starting with Ann in 1827, but they had dropped the Armstrong surname by then.
On 19th Apr 1827 an Overseers of the Poor in Houghton C asked for Samuel Busby alias Armstrong & wife Ann to be moved to Wilshamstead. Wilshamstead was crossed out & Elstow inserted.
The 1861c for Haynes shows Ann Busby (Armstrong) living as a servant with William & Hannah Armstrong ( Will & Hannah are fromthe Wilstead line) I believe theyt took her in as she was family.
Samuel Busby who wed Edy was probably the son of Beecher Busby & wife Christian (nee Goodman) who wed in 1765 at Bedford St Mary. Samuel was baptised at...Thurleigh! The date was 15th May 1774. Beecher wed again in Oct at Thurl to a Mary Wakeman.
As you see from above, all branches seem cclosely linked.
Anyway, I'll leave it for your perusal,
Cheers,
Bob
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Hello Again,
Re the Elstow stuff: If you look at Mary Robins who wed William Armstrong in Cople in 1779, you'll see Mary's parents were wed in Elstow!
Also, there is a strong non-conformist link to both the Thurleigh & Haynes Beds branches . A John Armstrong swore allegiance to the Crown in 1727. Baptists & Methodists are frequent in the Beds Armstrongs, also the Herts branches, where several were preachers.
Bob
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Samuel Armstrong is yet another Armstrong arriving in a village out of nowhere around 1788.
There are now several of them. Thomas appears in Upper Gravenhurst in about 1788. John in Riseley about 1700. Joseph/Josiah/Joshua in Thurleigh about 1786.
I won't count William in Cople and John in Ravensden or William in Wilden, because we are fairly confident of their origins, but none the less they all arrive and are the only Armstrongs at the time.
This is a classic pattern of a group of incomers, spreading out and colonising a county!
What's even more interesting is that with the exception of John, who turned up in Riseley in about 1700 with the baptism of his first daughter, they all arrive in villages and sometimes marry local females at about the same time - the 1780's.
So where did they come from?
One thing that has emerged out of this line of enquiry - even the IGI extracted records can't be relied upon for a full picture. Bedfordshire seems almost totally covered - yet there are gaps within individual batches. This may well be because the records we are looking for are non-conformist and were not extracted by the IGI. We know that at least some of the Armstrongs were Baptists and Wesleyans.
But in the Cople batches, there is no record of the second marriage of William Armstrong or the baptism of Henry in 1803, nor of Henry's first daughter Hannah in 1826, though his marriage to Maria and all his other children are covered.
In Thurleigh batches there is no record of William 1792 and Ann Gammons Wrench' marriage and their children, except Sarah, the first daughter. Thomas's children are there, though.
This does cast a small shadow over the correct identification of John 1760 of Ravensden. There IS a possibility that another John Armstrong was born about the right time and simply isn't on the IGI. ???
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In Thurleigh batches there is no record of William 1792 and Ann Gammons Wrench' marriage and their children, except Sarah, the first daughter. Thomas's children are there, though.
Wendy,
Batch M003651 has marriage of Wm Rench to Ann Gamons on 12 Oct 1812
Batch C003652 has baptism of Mary <Wrench> on 9 Apr 1815
& Rebecca <Wrench> on 8 Apr 1818
Both extracted entries, children of William Wrench & Ann
Regards John
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Yes, John - found them. Although John b about 1814 seems to be missing?
It was the Armstrong entries I meant - no marriage for William and Ann, and no Thomas or Eli baptisms, only Sarah. There are member entries, but they aren't in the extracted batch.
Yet I am sure you found the marriage of William and Ann in the Thurleigh PR - so I wonder why it's not in the IGI batch?
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The marriage of William Armstrong & Ann Wrench was in 1827.
The IGI batch for marriages at Thurleigh only goes up to 1812,
Thus the IGI is not 100% complete - so you need to refer to Parish records for dates outside those held on the IGI.
I'm sure you know this site ..
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hughwallis/IGIBatchNumbers/CountyBedford.htm#PageTitle
Regards John
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Doh!
I hadn't NB'd the dates on the Marriage batch! Thanks for reminding me, John.
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Agreed John
Virtually all of Beds pre 1812 has been extracted onto the IGI (parish registers that is, not necessarily non conformist registers). I don't think I've found any entries that have been missed in the transcription process, although the LDS in its infinite wisdom, inexplicably removed some extracted records when cleaning up the IGI if the entry was duplicated by a member submission.
So pre 1812 Beds is very reliable, and if a baptism is not there it usually means that it didn't take place at all or was non conformist. Marriages are easier as pre 1837 non conformists other than Jews and Quakers had to marry in the established church. So all marriages pre 1812 should be on the IGI (other than as mentioned above when there should be a member submission which would obviously need checking as one doesn't know if it was a duplicated extracted record, or a fictitious one)
Post 1812 is a different story, although coverage is pretty good, but even the Hugh Wallis site is not up to date, and you have to be careful with some of the more recent "C" batches where more and more seem to be female only - at least you know that the "J" and "K" batches are single sex.
And it should be born in mind that the IGI can't include what isn't in the PR - if a year or more is missing you obviously can't find it in the IGI, although "P" batches are taken from Bedford Archives transcripts which compared the PRs with the BTs and any anomalies are noted (which is why sometimes the IGI has what appear to be peculiar entries where names differ in the two records). A couple of my parishes have missing years 1800-10 where no marriage records exist at all
Regards
David
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Please Please Please watch the Ravensden records on the IGI ....
I found a huge amount of males missing. When I bumped into someone from the LDS at a fair I asked why and was told.... they must have taken all the boys to the next parish to get them baptised..... ::) I knew full well they were there as I'd seen them in the microfiche down a the SOG.
I'd also say keep an eye on Wilden as some of the fiche is barely readable so mistakes will happen.
Age old saying but if it's on the IGI still check the originals. :)
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Good morning Peppie,
I suspect we've spoken before, I think we are linked somehow.
I have a Walter Partridge b 1862 of Riseley who married Emily Louise Fensom b 1863 of Ravensden on 22/11/1886. Emily was daughter of John Fensom & Susannah Rogers. Arer they from your family of Fensoms of Ravensden. ?
Walter is son of William & Maria Gell, & grandson of Robert P of Riseley, who is brother to my gt-gt-grandfather.
Regards John
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Thanks Peppie. It's not so much that males have been missed; it's that no males were extracted after 1812 (pre 1812 is OK). Why the LDS extracted only females on some their more recent batches is beyond me! (and they don't seem to know themselves)
David
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I have been giving these Armstrongs some thought.
We have:
1. John Armstrong and Sarah, b about 1670-1680 They have one documented son who survived to adulthood, William b 1701 in Riseley.
2. William had two sons that we are aware of - John born in Riseley in 1729 and Thomas born after the move to Wilstead in 1734.
3. Thomas married Christian and he and his descendants populated Wilstead and Haynes and parts further east with Armstrongs.
4. John married Edith and produced two sons that are documented: William b 1754 in Wilstead who went off to Cople via Maulden, and (according to Bob's tree) populated Cople, Goldingdon and Blunham - and John b about 1760 in Wilstead who appears to have ended up in Ravensden, probably also via Maulden, as that's where his parents died. One of John's daughters was Edith.
Now, at the same time, we have:
1. Samuel, b about 1760-1770 who married Sarah and produced first (and only?) daughter Edith in Elstow.
2. Thomas, b about 1760-1770 who married Phoebe and produced first daughter Edith in Upper Gravenhurst .
3. Jos (Joseph/Josiah/Joshua?) who turned up in Thurleigh in 1788 and married another Sarah, Sarah Beal. They haven't any documented children that I have found.
None of these three are recorded on the IGI until their marriages, and Thomas's marriage is a member entry not an extraction. Tho' the baptisms of his children do confirm the marriage to a Phoebe of one ilk or other.
Now - is there a possibility that Thomas and Samuel at least were unbaptised sons of John and Edith, born either in Wilstead or Maulden?
It seems likely that John and Edith were pretty poor, or the Maulden overseers would not have paid William's apprenticeship bond in 1766, well before either of them died.
And although Beds is pretty well doucmented on the IGI, there are no baptisms in Beds which fit any of (1) to (3) above that I have found.
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Hello Wendy & all,
I should've mentioned that I believe Samuel & Sarah's first child was possibly Sarah b1774 who wed a Mr Holmes in Elstow in 1795. I have heard that Sarah &/or baby died on way to USA.
Two points I think may be of interest: As you know, dates around the 1752/4 era coincide with the switch from Julian to Gregorian calendar, where we jumped a year to match continental dates.
Elstow was Bunyan's 'patch', & many of the family seemed to follow that path.
I have a wild theory that perhaps the Armstrongs came south with the Scottish Covenanters, fought in Northants in the Civil War, settled in Beds!
Bob
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Hello All,
Another clue: I see there was a christening of a Sarah Armstrong 6th Feb 1766 in Maulden - parents: John & Mary. I'm wondering if there is any other info on these. This occurs after William c1754 seems to have left Maulden for Cople. John & Edy died in Maulden in 1773 & 1770 resp.
Wendy:
Looking forward to seeing your tree, hopefully we can assemble all the parts & get an overall picture
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The only additional info on the 1766 Maulden christening is that John was a labourer.
I don't think the change of calendar in 1752 will affect things, as the change was to start that year on 1 Jan as opposed to the 25 March - we didn't miss a year.
Regards
david
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I came across her yesterday.
Matching her up with the burial index with the name Armstrong gives two possibilities:
1. Sarah who married John 1760 and died in Ravensden in 1813 aged 47 (an exact match!)
2. Sarah who died in Upper Gravenhurst in August 1797, no age given - Thomas and Phoebe baptised a Sarah in April 1797, so this is likely to be their daughter.
(She could have married, however, so would not be in the index as an Armstrong.)
Did John 1760 marry a cousin?
And if so, who was the John Armstrong married to Mary who were her parents?
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Bob -
Just made a great find re William Armstrong and Mary Tatman of Cople.
They were never actually married! I just checked Pallots marriage index, and found the following entry:
"Tatman Mary & Wm Armstrong
Cople, Beds, 1802
Banns only. The above Mary Tatman has a husband living at Gt Staughton, Hunts"
Also found on Ancestry a 31-page set of images setting out the Army career in the Bedfordshire Regiment of Samuel Clark Armstrong from 1903 to 1924. Samuel, born in Thurleigh 23 Feb 1885, was a Baptist, and was the son of Samuel and Lydia, grandson of William b 1820 and his wife Dinah and great grandson of William 1792 and Elizabeth Franklin.
He was a right little weed at 18, 5ft 5ins tall with a 36 inch chest. He won the DCM in 1917, reached the rank of Temporary Regimental Sergeant Major by 1916, and was Regimental Quartermaster Sergeant on completion of his 21 year engagement in 1924. He seems to have got through the whole of WWI without injury other than a bit of conjunctivitis due to gas. Fascinating stuff! He married in 1919 to Elsie Shepherd of Bolnhurst, and until his discharge they had had one son, John Clark Armstrong b Aug 1920.
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Hi, Bob - I found Samuel's complete service record on Ancestry. (www.ancestry.co.uk)
I thinkyou might have to have a subscription to view it - I think I pay about £75 a year? - all the census stuff is there too, though some of the transcriptions need taking with a pinch of salt!
It's a set of 31 images in the WWI Pension Records database, which Ancestry are slowly putting online. They have A-B so far.
He did actually serve 21 years, although he originally only signed on for 3 + 9 in the reserve. He obviously liked the life!
Re: the ages in that printout I sent you - Legacy calculates them from the birth year and the death year. I still had William's baptism year in as his birth year - but as the NBI record says age 76 I have now changed the birth year. I usually supress that calculation as it can be misleading (as it just was!) - but just ticked everything when I made the Ahnentafel for you.
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........Also, Pte T Armstrong's Beds Regt, MGC & RIF rolls - he was the son of Charles. Born in Bletsoe.
Bob, Any more about this T Armstrong ?. Could he be Thomas b 1892 son of Charles A & Sophia Partridge.
Regards John
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Hello John,
Yes, Charles & Sophia were the parents. He died on 12th Oct 1918 see CWGC.
He had abrother in the RAVC rank Sergeant, who survived WW1. Both are listed in the National Roll as 30, Bletsoe, Bedford.
Cheers,
Bob
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Good morning all
I haven't been having much success getting my replies on the website - so I'm trying again!
Obviously my original research, done with Jacqui from genes, which gave William as the son of Phoebe Wisson was incorrect - as I discovered when I was sent some Parish records recording Phoebe's son's death. If anyone else has the Phoebe information on their tree, then they either came to the same incorrect conclusion as Jacqui and I did, or they copied ours.
If William b. 1791/2, son of William Armstrong and Elizabeth Franklin is "my" William, half-brother to Thomas, Sarah and Eli, then I guess I'm connected to Wendy as she says she's connected to John. I already know I'm connected to John through Hannah & Sophia Partridge and Charles Armstrong. I'm trying to research backwards, but finding it almost impossible. Living in Vancouver I don't have the ability to visit Records Offices, and my LDS Centre is anything but helpful. (They may be OK with U.S. and Canada research?)
Any other suggestions gratefully received.
Judi
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Sorry, Judi, it's a bit early in the morning and I'm struggling to follow your message!
The William son of William and Elizabeth (Franklin) Armstrong was christened in 1822, so was half brother of Eli etc. It was William the father who was born c1791, and the assumption is that he was an unbaptised son of John and Sarah. Wendy on this thread has posted her conclusions as to where John was from, but the thread has grown and grown and contains a lot of information so it pays to read it carefully!
What is the problem with the LDS in Vancouver? I've always found them to be very helpful although they obviously have their own areas of expertise - I've used their New York and London FHCs over the years, but where I now live in France is by appointment only so I've not yet used them here, and when I do don't expect much in the way of Bedfordshire knowledge!
Just post - new thread perhaps - what you're looking for and we'll try to help
Must dash - 7 year old (Sorry, nearly 8 as he reminds me!) needs to be smartened up ready for school!
Regards
David
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Hello Judi -
I think the error re: William being the son of Thomas and Phoebe is widespread. It's simply the only entry on the IGI which "fits" - and as Beds is so well covered on the IGI, it is assumed to be correct.
There is no incontrovertible proof that William b 1792-ish is the son of John and Sarah Armstrong of Ravensden, because there appears to be no baptism. But the circumstantial evidence is almost overwhelming. Plus, of course, the fact that William of Upper Gravenhurst probably died in 1807.
The link backwards is also circumstantial: John Armstrong who died in 1826 in Ravensden aged 66 is likely to have been John Armstrong baptised in 1761 in Wilstead, son of John Armstrong and Edith Grange. John and Edith were both buried in Maulden by 1773, and the apprenticeship of their son William by the Maulden Overseers in 1766 indicates that they were poor, and possibly a charge on the parish. How John got from Maulden to Ravensden is unknown, but he too could have been apprenticed or otherwise placed out by the Maulden overseers.
A new piece of linking evidence emerged just yesterday. A Sarah Armstrong was baptised in Maulden in 1766, daughter of John and Mary. I have no idea who John and Mary were - yet. I can't find a likely marriage for a John Armstrong and a Mary. The NBI doesn't turn up any unaccounted for Johns who could have been Sarah's father, other than John who was married to Edith! Did John perhaps have and acknowledge a child outside his marriage? We know he was in Maulden in 1766 because of William's apprenticeship.....
The only Sarah buried in Beds on the National Burial Index that isn't otherwise accounted for is Sarah buried in Ravensden in 1813 aged 47 - so born 1766 - a perfect match.
So the possibility is that John married (or perhaps didn't marry? if John Snr DID stray, then John and Sarah were half-brother and sister!) Sarah of Maulden, and they made their way to Ravensden before 1787 when their first child was baptised there. .
Fortunately the line back from John and Edith to the original John and Sarah born about 1670-1680 is fairly well documented, as are the links downwards from the Ravensden and Thurleigh families.
You and I are linked because your William 1792 and my John 1802 were almost certainly brothers - sons of John Armstrong and Sarah in Ravensden.
Re: UK research - virtually everything you need is available online nowadays. The IGI covers Beds reasonably well, as David has outlined in an earlier post. But you need to watch out for member entries, which can be very misleading, ad they are great ones for extrapolating birth dates and places backwards from marriage entries!
Ancestry covers the census information from 1841 to 1901 and has a lot of other useful information, including the Wilstead parish records in their Parish and Probate database. FreeBMD is now virtually complete from 1837 to about 1912 and is excellent for locating certificates. FreeREG is also coming along, but you need to be lucky, as it is still in the very early stages. Family History Online is a pay-per-view database which has Bedfordshire well covered on the NBI, though virtually no other Beds information. Genes Reunited, as you have already found, is valuable - though you need to be prepared for other people's errors - I once had a whole fictitious branch in my tree, because I confused two people with the same name from the same village! It took three of us almost a year to sort it all out....
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My goodness - you guys are up early, aren't you?? Well - you were when I started this email!
Thanks for the responses.
Wendy - where do I find the Parish and Probate database on ancestry? I've had a look through the complete list of databases and can't find it - mind you, since the latest "improvement" on the website I find it awkward to find AWT!
I'm a transcriber for freeBMD so already know the merits of that wonderful site.
The FHS in Vancouver may be manned with people with some knowledge of how to use the system - my local one doesn't seem to be. (It's also by appointment only.) The library is a far more pleasant place to view the microfiche copy I have of the Thurleigh parish records. (no sitting in a dark room lit only by computer screens as is the FHC - is that normal?)
I'll go and have a look at FreeREG now.
Judi
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Try here, judi:
http://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/rectype/vital/epr/main.aspx
FreeREG doesn't have much Beds on it yet, but they have done Riseley.
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Thanks, Wendy
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Hello Wendy,
You have John of Riseley dying in 1727 age 57 , plus wife Sarah age 76. I just wondered where you found their ages? I looked in the past with no success.
Thanks for the Samuel 31-page military career. I had seen that, but due to brain having a middle-aged moment, I'd only accessed the first page!
At some point, I'll dig out some of my Shillington stuff & see if we can get closer with that.
I don't know if I've mentioned it, but on a couple of Turvey Apprentice entries, 2 Armstrongs are listed as Armes. I have been told that some vicars/priests shortened the surname. This obviously wasn't a regular occurrence, but wonder if anyone else has noticed this?
Cheers,
Bob
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Bob -
As I said the other day, most of the ages at death showing on the Ahnentafel I sent to you have been calculated by Legacy from the birth and death years. I usually supress this calculation as it can be misleading, because it makes one think that the actual death ages have come from records.
In most cases this is not so, and the age at death has been calculated.
If I have found a REAL death date, the NBI reference is usually in the notes.
re: the Armes, I have always thought they were a separate family?
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Hello Wendy & all,
Sorry Wendy, I hadn't seen your post on the thread yesterday showing the half-brother-sister possibility. It just goes to show it's worth re-reading the thread from time to time.
I got there by shuffling bits of paper around trying to find links to the tree.
I think the old 1850's tree compiled was ordered by the Methodist branches in Herts, & to spare any blushes, was "sanitized". This would explain why the names were in place, but the explanations weren't freely offered!
Next stop, the Shillington branch.
Cheers,
Bob
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Hello All,
Re: Thomas Armstrong of Upper Gravy; did anyone manage to prove his actual year of birth? I've seen ( & calculated) two options - 1756 & 1763.
If 1756, he may easily be a middle child of William Armstrong & Sarah (nee Pruden).
In the interim, I'll re-read the thread.
Thanks,
Bob
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No, Bob - no baptism found for him.
There is a member entry on the IGI which extrapolates his birth as 1763 in Upper Gravenhurst by assuming he was 25 on his marriage to Phoebe and was born where he was married - standard practice and usually wrong!
The 1841 census gives his age as 85 - so he could have been any age between 85 and 89. Phoebe is shown as only 70, though.
The NBI has the following entry:
Thomas ARMSTRONG Date 2 Sep 1846 Aged 90 Place Upper Gravenhurst Description St Giles Denomination Anglican County code BDF.
So I guess we are looking at about 1755-6.
I believe there is a possibility he could belong to John and Edith. They have only two recorded baptised children - William 1754 and John 1761, both baptised in Wilstead. Seven years is a BIG gap in those days among labourers - a child at least every couple of years was the norm. Thomas is a family name - John's brother was a Thomas.
For the same reason, I think it's possible that Samuel who married Sarah and produced daughter Edith in 1788 in Elstow could also have been a son of John and Edith.
Both Samuel and Thomas had daughters baptised Edith - which was not a common name in the family at that time. Indeed, it seems to have started with John's wife Edith Grange.
Both Thomas and Samuel pop up out of nowhere in 1788 - Thomas as the husband of Phoebe Wisson and father of Edith b 1789 in Upper Gravenhurst, and Samuel as the husband of Sarah and father of Edith b 1788 in Elstow.
There are only 16 Edith Armstrongs on the IGI, and most can be identified as either part of our existing Armstrong family, descendants of Edith Grange - OR the two daughters of Thomas and Samuel.
The single exception is Edith baptised in Houghton Conquest 25 Feb 1882, who died and was buried on 28 April 1822 in Houghton Conquest at 9 weeks old. She was the daughter of Elizabeth Armstrong, whom I have not yet been able to identify.
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Hello Wendy,
I agree. I sent Sue Edwards a copy of my tree some months ago & asked her views on the Elstow connection. She agreed it was highly likely; especially the Armstrong Busby girl living with Wilstead Armstrong stock in Haynes in 1861c.
I think we both agreed that the central & north Beds familes were probably connected.
With your, David & John's input it seems we're generally singing from the same hymn sheet.
Thanks,
Bob
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Hello All,
Now that the Ravensden link is sorted, you may be interested in the Elstow branchwhich I did some work on last year, as follows:
A Samuel Armstrong born about 1750's wed Sarah. One of their girls Edy/Edith b 1785 c1788 in Elstow wed Samuel Busby on 1st Mar 1806, died Houghton C in 1841
Edith had an illeg son (by 1 month) called Samuel Busby Armstrong 16th Feb 1806 in Elstow. Samuel wed Ann Page of Goldington - a main Armstrong centre, in 1827. They had 10 kids starting with Ann in 1827, but they had dropped the Armstrong surname by then.
On 19th Apr 1827 an Overseers of the Poor in Houghton C asked for Samuel Busby alias Armstrong & wife Ann to be moved to Wilshamstead. Wilshamstead was crossed out & Elstow inserted.
The 1861c for Haynes shows Ann Busby (Armstrong) living as a servant with William & Hannah Armstrong ( Will & Hannah are fromthe Wilstead line) I believe theyt took her in as she was family.
Samuel Busby who wed Edy was probably the son of Beecher Busby & wife Christian (nee Goodman) who wed in 1765 at Bedford St Mary. Samuel was baptised at...Thurleigh! The date was 15th May 1774. Beecher wed again in Oct at Thurl to a Mary Wakeman.
As you see from above, all branches seem cclosely linked.
Anyway, I'll leave it for your perusal,
Cheers,
Bob
Bob- I've been having a look at these Busbys, to see if there are any clues as to the origins of Samuel Armstrong and Sarah.
I think the Thurleigh Busby's are a different family. From the IGI:
A William Busby married Ann Cudd in 1723 in Thurleigh. They appear to have had at least two sons: William b 1725 and Beecher b 1739. There is a burial for a William in 1751 but no age given.
William Jnr married Elizabeth Marcey in 1749 and they had 7 children between 1750 and 1761, which included two attempts at a Henry. There is a burial for a William in Thurleigh in 1791, but no age given.
Beecher married Mary Wakeham in 1774 in Thurleigh and they had at least one son, Samuel b 1774. Beecher died in 1814 aged 76.
Samuel married Elizabeth Darlow in 1799, and they had at least two sons: Beecher b 1800 and John b 1802. There is a burial for a Samuel in Thurleigh in 1803, but no age given.
Beecher Jnr can be found in 1841 in Colmworth with wife Elizabeth and eldest son Samuel aged 15, plus 5 others. John seems to have remained in Thurleigh, though I haven't investigated fully.
None of this helps find out who the Samuel Busby was who married Edith in Elstow in 1806, but at least it seems to show who he WASN'T! The children of Samuel and Edith were all born in Houghton Conquest, and tracking forward shows that several of them stayed there. Samuel and Edith were both buried in HC in 1841 and 1868 respectively.
The fly in the ointment is the nine-week old Edith Armstrong in 1822, born to and buried by Elizabeth Armstrong in Houghton Conquest. I wonder if Samuel Busby and Edith also produced a daughter as well as a son before they got married? I can't see any other source for an Armstrong female in Houghton Conquest at that particular time, particularly one who would name her daughter Edith....she would have been born in Elstow, but moved to HC with Edith and Samuel after the marriage.
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Hello Wendy,
I'll try & have a look at this soon.I've just joined FamilytreeDNA & hope to get results by next month. I'll let you know what they show!
Cheers,
Bob
PS Keep up the good work
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Found - the first documented link between the "posh" Armstrongs of Ampthill and Houghton Conquest and our branch:
http://tinyurl.com/26xcm8
The John Armstrong at the beginning of the references is son and heir of Charles, who was son of Thomas and Frances Thompson. Thomas was allegedly born in Ireland and settled in Ampthill on his retirement from the Army in 1717. He was a JP - references all over the place on BLARS. His wife Frances was daughter of Lord Haversham and granddaughter of the Earl of Anglesey.
John Armstrong must have been at least 21 to be entering into leases, so born before 1767. This puts him in the right age-group to be a son of Charles - but I cannot find a John born to Charles. Charles' children with Althamia Priaulx were born between 1749-1752 in Steppingly. The Ancestry trees say he had a first wife named Elizabeth, with whom he had one son, Thomas, but I can't find him either!
The key item is right at the end - John Armstrong's will. However, this can't be the John mentioned in the first line - he must be the next generation. He is definitely from that family - the Althamiah pegs him firmly to the "posh" lot:
"Recites (9) - will of John Armstrong 7 June 1841
- To daughters Mary Ann Armstrong and Althamiah Armstrong 400 each on attaining 21 years, and if one should die her share to go to the other, if both should die the legacies should lapse for the benefit of the owner of the estates,
- To friends Charles Armstrong, farmer, of Wootton and William Armstrong, farmer, of Hawnes, his personal estate and messuages, tenements and lands, on trust to provide from them 52 a year to wife Mary Armstrong, with power of sale.
Executors: Charles, William and Mary Armstrong as above, will pro 19 June 1843 at Bedford."
I have found his death on FreeBMD, qe Jun 1843, and two daughters on the IGI baptised in 1827 and 1830 respectively. There seems likely to have been a son John in 1832 and a Sarah Augusta in 1835 as well. Though with everything left in trust for his wife and daughters, there couldn't have been a son surviving by 1841, but I can't find a likely burial. Sarah Augusta died qe Sept 1838.
It's interesting because it is the first visible contact between the Ampthill family and ours.
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Hello Wendy,
Good work.
I was in contact with a convenor for the Irish Armstrongs about 6 years ago who had masses of info on the "Clan" there. The Stonestown Armstrongs link directly to the Mangerton stronghold, see Burke's Landed Irish Gentry. Something I did try to work on that was another coincidence was that Charles Armstrong wed Althamia Priaulx of Bedford in 1747. In Ireland, Co Offaly (formerly King's Co), there are several Armstrong/Priaulx links. EG John Armstrong Priaulx is mentioned several times in the mid-1800's in Cary House, Kings Co. The rarity of the Priaulx surname seemed to me to be quite a noticeable coincidence.
I did lots of research into the famous Andrew Armstrong (1576-1671), as some old notes claimed to link us with this branch. However, every Armstrong you meet seems to try to make this link! I did holiday in the Canonbie/Newcastleton region in the 1980 to try & confirm a link, but with no success.
Two areas I thought may prove interesting: The Beds Regt were occasionally in Ireland, plus many Lowland Scots came south in the Covenanter's Army.
Anyway, all these extra links like yours start to build up into a quite formidable case. The downside would seem to be that the Riseley A's were labourers, & Stonestown, Gallen & Mangerton were of landed stock. Mind you, George Armstrong (the wealthy farmer) lived amongst his more humble cousins in Goldington, so it does happen.
Anyway, I'll dig out some more old papers.
Thanks,
Bob
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Hello everyone,
Well there's certainly some interesting info in this thread! My husband is connected to Thomas Armstrong and Phoebe Wisson, through their son Thomas born c.1796 married to Mary, then via their son Isaac born 1817 at Upprer Gravenhurst. My husband's grandmother was Lizzie Armstrong, daughter of Isaac and his second wife Martha Anderson. I suspect I have already been in contact with castlebob through the Bedfordshire family history society.
Despite wading through all the posts, I can't quite work out who else is actually connected to this family!
Ann
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Hello Ann,
Yes, guilty as charged! We still haven't been able to connect your line, although we feel somewhere between William b1752 c1754 in Wilstead & his brother John b1761, there is a likely space for the Upper G & Elstow Armstrongs. All logic plus naming patterns & coincidental evidence points to this, but we can't prove it satisfactorily.
Cheers
Bob
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To help narrow it down, I'm NOT connected!
David
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Hi, Ann - welcome to the Armstrong-fest!
There are plenty of them about, all over Bedfordshire.
However, thus far, as Bob has said, we have not been able to prove any link at all between the Armstrongs that are mainly discussed on this thread and Thomas and Phoebe and their family of Upper Gravenhurst.
Very many researchers have picked up on an incorrect reference on the IGI and various other family trees on the net - i.e. that William Armstrong who fathered a family in Thurleigh from his second marriage to Ann Gammons - to whom most of us here ARE related in one way or another - was the son of Thomas and Phoebe.
Sadly he wasn't. That William almost certainly died as a teenager, and the real William Armstrong of Thurleigh was probably an unbaptised son of John and Sarah of Ravensden.
It's good to come across a descendant of Thomas and Phoebe - have you managed to unearth any information prior to their marriage?
A number of Armstrongs seem to have arrived in various Bedfordshire villages at about the same time int he late 1780s - and I suspect that they MAY be related, if only because they all named a daughter (usually their eldest) Edith. This COULD suggest that they were all children of John Armstrong and Edith Grange, who ended up living (and both died) in Maulden and were probably "on the parish". There are only two recorded children of theirs - William and John. as mentioned by Bob just now. But baptisms cost money - it's possible that there were more children.
It just seems so much of a coincidence that Samuel in Elstow, Thomas in Upper Gravenhurst and John in Ravensden, all had daughters named Edith.....
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Hello Ann,
I have links to the Armstrongs of Ravensden/Thurleigh but now know NOT to those from Upper Gravenhurst. It was me who started the rumour on this thread - but have been duly corrected.
Regards John
CastleBob - do you attend the BFHS meetings ?
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Hello All,
I'm based on the South Coast, so unable to attend BFHS meetings, sadly. Some info that may be of interest re Armstrongs: (I'd welcome your input)
I read that Queen Elizabeth sent Francis Russell, 2nd Earl of Bedford, to the Borders in 1563 as a Warden of the March in an effort to help keep the peace. Sir Walter Scott's poem "The Raid of the Reidswire" names Russell & the Armstrongs in the 'dispute'.
I wonder if Russell offered the Armstrongs an escape route to Beds? In 1586, a Simon Armstrong fathered a child Elizabeth in Woburn (seat of the Dukes). One of the last Lairds of Mangerton was Simon Armstrong, wife Elizabeth Forster. There is a betrothal stone at Mangerton with their initials.
Also, my DNA shows links to Scottish Armstrongs approx in the 1400's.
Could the Russell's be the link?
Cheers,
Bob Armstrong
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Hello everyone,
As was said, certainly loads of Armstrongs! Unfortunately, I have not been able to find anything before Thomas and Phoebe's marriage - in fact it was only through other people's research that I found out about them!
I see among my notes that their first child, baptised in 1789 was called Edith, so as Bob says, a similar naming pattern.
Ann
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Hi Bob
That's an interesting theory, but I'm not sure if it could ever be proved!
A few comments
This is a well documented family, so I'd have thought that a move south would have been noted.
The Simon Armstrong 9th and penultimate Laird of Mangerton rebuilt Mangerton Castle in 1583 and died the same year, three years before the birth of Elizabeth Armstrong at Woburn, so he couldn't have been the Simon in Woburn. But there were a number of Simons in the family, so another member might have moved south.
Francis Russell died in 1585, the year before Elizabeth was born, and 18 years after he returned to London from the Borders. It seems a bit of a gap - 20 years - from when he moved back to London to the birth in Woburn, for there to have been a connection between the Earl and Simon Armstrong
I can't see a burial of Simon or Elizabeth in Beds, or indeed of any Armstrong at Woburn.
A Henry Armstrong was reproducing in Leighton Buzzard in 1613
Thomas Armstrongs were buried at Tingrith and Willington in 1630 and 1652, so it appears that more than one Armstrong turned up in Beds.
I prefer working backwards in time!
Regards
David
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Thanks David for the input & extra ( & expert) Beds knowledge.
As you say, it's just conjecture, but I have a list of coincidences, plus vague family connections to some Scots-Irish in Beds, (see Stonestown, Ireland ), plus an early Armstrong who wed Christian Fiddes in Wilstead. (The only girl I've found of the name was from Jedburgh, & the age fits).
Unfortunately, none of this is proof positive, but my DNA links to some people from the Borders in the 1400's (+/-) is useful.
If you uncover anything in your researching travels, I'd welcome any input.
Cheers,
Bob
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Just came across this on A2a which you may have and which may mean nothing at all
Moravian Church, Bedfordshire
CONGREGATION BIOGRAPHIES
Brief biographies of people connected with the Bedford Congregation
FILE - Nathaniel Armstrong, born Hayfeild in Derbyshire, 23 Feb 1744 - ref. MO616
David
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Thanks, David
That's a new one on me!
Cheers
Bob
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Hello All,
I think he's probably from a branch of the Gallen line of Armstrongs from Stonestown, Ireland origins. Charles & Althamia were in Derbyshire in 1748, so possible.
Bob
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Thanks for that, David!
There are only a couple of Nathaniels on the IGI from Derbyshire - this one looks like a relation, as Chinley and Hayfield are up in the Peak District, less than two miles apart and the baptism was in an Independent church:
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Charles was certainly in Derbyshire at the time, as he married Elizabeth Collier in 1742 in Sawley, and had two children by her, Thomas and Christian. She was the daughter of the Rev Mr Collier of Sawley. He then married Althamia in Bowden, Leicestershire, and went back to Sawley, where their first child was born. They then moved to Steppingley in Beds where the rest of their children were born.
However, uncannily, Charles' second child with Elizabeth, Christian, was baptised on 24 February 1744......but Sawley is a long way from Hayfield and Christian was a girl!
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John-P -
Thanks for the info re: the Shotley Taxpayers which you have explained on the Partridge thread here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,237667.15.html
I have been researching the "posh" Armstrongs to try to find a link with our Ag Labs, and Charles Armstrong came up as a Shotley taxpayer on Ancestry in the Beds Parish & Probate records....a totally garbled entry of which I could make no sense till I googled "Shotley taxpayers" and came up with your above thread!
Following your explanation, from the following entries:
A157 Armstrong, Chas., yeoman Houghton Conquest 21 01 Feb 1783 L 33 B261 -
L 33 Larkin, Sarah Houghton Conquest - - A157 B261 -
B261 Bond, Stephen, dairyman Biddenham - - - - A157, L??
- I derived the information that Charles Armstrong, yeoman of Houghton Conquest, (aged? over?) 21, applied for a marriage licence on 01 Feb 1783. His intended was Sarah Larkin, and bondsman was a Stephen Bond.
According to the IGI, Charles Armstrong married Sarah Larkin or Larkinson on 25 May 1783. A big gap between application and marriage? Was this common, I wonder?
However, that's not my point.
This particular Charles could be one of two people, and it's important to know which!
He could be the son of Charles 1712 and Althamia Armstrong, b 1750 in Steppingley. Although both Burkes and a history of the family written in 1775 state that all Charles and Althamia's children died in infancy.
Alternatively he could be the the illegitimate Charles Armstrong alias Barton who may have been born to Charles 1712 and Mary Barton before they married in Graffham in 1759. Certainly Charles 1712 and Mary Barton were "fornicating" before their marriage (Mary was given penances by the church!), and something happened in 1758 which caused Charles 1712's mother to cut him out of her will.
Charles Armstrong alias Barton is named in Charles 1712's will as the son of Mary his wife, who was to have the residue of the Graffham estate to him and his heirs forever, once Mary had paid her bills and supported the rest of "her family". He is not mentioned as being a minor. Charles 1712's 5 children by Mary within their marriage were all left specific legacies - John got the HC estates, Philip named farms in Graffham, and the three girls - Frances, Althamia and Mary - got money to be paid when they came of age. All five children were minors.
After the death of Charles 1712 in 1780, it seems that Mary and her family moved to Houghton Conquest, as she was to have possession of the lands there until John reached his majority. Her daughter Althamia (another Shotley taxpayer!) married George Townsend of Wrestlingworth in HC in April 1783, just weeks before the marriage of Charles to Sarah.
Would some kind soul who might have access to the Houghton Conquest records look up the marriage of Charles and Sarah in 1783 and see if there is any further information on the record which might give an age for Charles or perhaps even his parentage? If he was indeed 21 in 1783 as the "Shotley" record suggests, that puts his birth at around 1762, and I am then at a loss to know who the hell he was! If the "21" simply meant he was OVER 21, then he could have been born at any time. Sarah's probable burial in Graffham aged 77 in 1836 puts her birth at 1759. Charles' probable burial in Graffham in 1800 gives no age, sadly.
Separately, and I will put it here although it belongs on the Hunts board, because it's all related, I am looking for children born to James Measures and Aolti Mira Armstrong in Ellington between 1812 and 1833. I have three of them - Aolti Mira Measures, Elizabeth Measures, and James Measures. These are all member entries on the IGI, but have precise dates so are probably correct. I suspect there may have been at least one other son born about 1818.
Would the BVRI help, David? ;) David, I have now done what I SHOULD have done in the first instance, and found the answer to this on the Hunts thread! Please disregard!
Thanks to anyone who can cast any light....
Wendy
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Isn't it interesting when you starting investigating another line in your family tree the same old names come up again.
My grandfather's second wife Mabel Bishop's brother Tom married Dorothy Phyllis Cox in 1914. Her sister Hilda Mildred b 1889 Knotting married John William Armstrong born 1887 Thurleigh in 1909. This Armstrong's great grandfather is William Armstrong (1792 Ravensden) who married Elizabeth Franklin.
I have the lineage if anyone wants it.
cheers John
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John, you must be getting desperate for lines to research if you're following your grandfather's second wife's sister in law's brother in law's ancestry!!!
David
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Hi everyone
I've been reading your messages with great interest, thanks to Wendy and her response to my 'Genes Reunited' message. I'm intrigued by Thomas and John being undocumented sons of John and Edith, as my 'tree' stems from said Thomas. It does seem too much of a coincidence that all the branches spring up at around the same time and same area otherwise.
To add to this, my father (who is now 86), was told by an aunt when he was a boy that the family left the Sunderland area 'under a cloud' - she neglected to mention what it was about and when they left! To ask questions as a child was not an option back in those days, so yet another point to ponder in the Armstrong history in Bedfordshire! Any thoughts, anyone? Wendy has mentioned that prisoners were taken by English landowners for ransom and to prevent them from causing trouble as a possibility.
I am going to try to get either my father or one of my three brothers to take the DNA test, otherwise I may try one of my four nephews instead. If I can get one of them to do this, how do I proceed?
Ann - we have Isaac in common - he's my 3 x great-grandfather via his marriage to Elizabeth, nee Hall, but I cannot trace her death and his remarriage - could I be so bold as to ask you for the information as I would like to make my tree as complete as possible? The same is on offer in return! I've yet to get to grips with the records that exist away from the 'Genes Reunited' site as I've just been doing the basic work-up from there so far (only back on line at home for three weeks after three years without home use); taking the line of least resistance, so to speak! Had a couple of slip ups, mainly due to trying to do the tree after a full day's work and falling asleep, making siblings into spouses etc., with one false slip of the mouse!
Take care.
Janet
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Hello Janet,
Great to read your posting as a number of us have spent decades trying to prove the Upper Gravenhurst & associated familes' links to the rest of us. I co-admin FTDNA's Armstrong Y-DNA Surname Group project, so will send a private message to you.
Cheers,
Bob
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Hi Janet
I'm also a member of this esteemed family! To answer your question about Isaac's wife Elizabeth Hill - she died June qtr 1877 Ampthill, and he married Martha Anderson b. abt 1841 Luton, in Mar qtr 1878 Luton (both references from free BMD website, and Martha's age from the 1881 census).
I convinced my Dad to take the DNA test a couple of years ago - he agreed to do so as long as it didn't cost him one of the few hairs he had left!! Hope your Dad will get it done as it's about time we connected with Thomas and Phoebe.
Best of luck
Judi (nee Armstrong)
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Hi Janet,
I was interested to learn about your connection to Isaac Armstrong - my husband is descended from him via his second marriage to Martha Anderson - their daughter Lizzie was my husband's maternal grandmother.
Best wishes, Ann
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Glad to see you found your way here, Janet.
If you've managed to plough your way through all the messages, you'll see the unfolding of the story I gave you in a nutshell on G-R earlier in the week...
It was the DNA test that Judi mentions that finally gave us the proof that the Thurleigh and Ravensden Armstrongs were linked not only to most other branches but also to each other - ergo, that all our suppositions that William 1792, who founded the Thurleigh branch, was an undocumented (i.e. unbaptised) son of John and Sarah of Ravensden were correct.
If one of your guys can tie in the Upper Gravenhurst Armstrongs to our lot, that would be a real breakthrough! Then there would only be Samuel and his Busby Armstrong descendants left unlinked.
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Hi Wendy
I will be working on the males of the family very shortly. My dad will probably be interested, but keeping him off of having a cup of tea for four hours (as has to happen before the cheek swab test) may be testing my theory! I'm sure he will and I will be going to see my parents this weekend, so I can work on him then.
Thank you for directing me to this site - I've picked up quite a few more threads from here and the internet generally, such as the area of south London (Southwark/Elephant & Castle) which became known as 'Little Shillington' due to so many of the ex-Shillington-ites settling there - certainly true on my side of the 'tree' - gt-grandad Samuel married gt-grandma, Susan Belcher, there in 1898! (Headed north of the river shortly therefter, as my grandad was born in Highgate in 1901.)
I am having problems with my 'GR' site at the moment - I'm hoping that I haven't lost the last few weeks work, though most is written down. I am hoping that I don't have to input it again, although I am not holding my breath - awaiting reply from the 'GR' support team imminently.
I will keep you informed of progress re:test - watch this space, as they say!
Take care.
Janet
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I have all my fingers crossed - this would mean such a lot to lots of Armstrongs!
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Quick update on the YDNA test - my dad has agreed to take the test, it's paid for and am eagerly awaiting its arrival. Will post again when it's been done and sent off to keep you up to date.
Take care all.
Janet
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Hello All,
Y-DNA now shows perfect matches between the Riseley-linked Armstrongs & those in Upper Gravenhurst, Shillington etc.
Many thanks to all those who contributed, plus to those relatives in Canada (some sadly no longer with us) who put so much into their research in the 1970s & 80s.
Cheers,
Bob
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Fantastic result, Bob, and many, many thanks to Janet's dad.
I'm sure John-P and David will be delighted to hear that after all the help they've given us, we have now tied four out of five Bedfordshire Armstrong branches to the common ancestor - John Armstrong of Riseley who surfaced there baptising children in 1701.
We only have Samuel of Elstow and his daughter Edith and her Busby-Armstrong descendants left to tie in....
That's the "church mice" of course - there are still the "posh lot" from Ireland that don't hook up with us peasants, but then we never expected they would. Not in recent generations, anyway!
Thanks, David and John - your info and research on our behalf was invaluable in helping to cement the circumstantial evidence that gave us the potential for this new link.
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I realize that this is an old chat about the family of John and Sarah Armstrong. Has anyone made any progress in determining the origins of John Armstrong (d 1727?). My father was quite active in researching the family (Jim Armstrong of Brandon, Manitoba, Canada) and now that I am retired, I am digging through the bins of data that he left me. Many thanks.
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Great to hear from you! I was in regular touch with Jim over many years. Huge, and exciting, progress was made, but sadly shortly after Jim's passing. I'll send you a Private Message via Rootschat with some very interesting info for you.
Cheers,
Bob
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I’ve been re-reading this thread about all the different lines of the Armstrong family in Bedfordshire. Several years ago I found that my late husband was descended from Thomas Armstrong and Phoebe Wisson, which was how I came to look at it in the first place.
Now I have found a possible tenuous link in my own family tree. This is through Edith Armstrong who married Samual Busby. It seems Edith had a son before the marriage, named Samuel Busby Armstrong, who married Ann Page. A daughter Mary Busby Armstrong married John Crowsley, who was my 1st cousin 3x removed.
How very complicated this family history research is!
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Thankfully it's all getting a lot clearer now, Ann!
You may recall that Ann Busby worked as a servant to William Armstrong b1803 in Wilshamstead & his wife, Hannah. They are all shown on the 1861 Census in Hawnes.
Cheers,
Bob
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Hello Bob
Well, I must admit I’m still confused! It doesn’t help when Samuel Busby and family sometimes add Armstrong to their names and other times are just Busby.
Best wishes, Ann
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I researched this line many years ago, Ann. I'll try & find my notes for you.
I've got a lot of info on our links back to Scotland, so Private Message me with your
email address, if interested.
Cheers,
Bob
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Samuel Busby, son of Samuel Busby & Edith Armstrong was illegitimate. He was baptized at Elstow on 16th Feb 1806. Samuel wed Edith on 1st March 1806. The Armstrong surname was dropped after the wedding.
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One note of caution re some pedigrees currently doing the rounds, Ann:
Thomas Armstrong & Phoebe (nee Wisson) had an eldest child named Edith, born in 1789 in Upper Gravenhurst. She wed a James Mackenness in 1812 in Clophill. She isn't to be confused with Edith, daughter of Samuel Armstrong who was chr in 1788 in Elstow. This latter Edith wed Samuel Busby.
I strongly suspect that Samuel Armstrong was a another son of John Armstrong & Edith (nee Grange). He appears to be a likely brother of Thomas who wed Phoebe (Wisson).
I apologise because this has been done to death, but thought it worth clarifying - especially as some erroneous pedigrees have surfaced.
Cheers,
Bob