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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: stanleymansion on Thursday 26 April 07 19:25 BST (UK)
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Hi
I am trying to trace the early years of my Great Grandmother ANN MANN and would welcome any thoughts, contributions ..
ANN married WILLIAM HALLIWELL on 20 July 1893 at St. Peters Parish Church in Chorley. I have a copy of the marriage cert which shows her as a spinster, a weaver, living at 88 Harpers Lane, Chorley, father, a spinner, ROBERT FISHWICK (deceased).
I have established that at the time of her marriage she was living in a house who in the 1891 census, 2 years before her marriage, was occupied by a family of Morrisons. This family were together in the 1881 and 1871 censuses although living at a different house within the Chorley area. Strangely, or not, there was an Ann who is shown as a Morrison (twice shown as a daughter and once as a niece). This Ann is shown as having been born in Bolton about 1865; the rest of the family are Chorley. I have got the birth certificate For ANN MANN born 11 Lodge Vale, Bolton 5 Jan 1865. Her mother is ALICE MANN formerly, what looks like 'Rofs'? The father's name is not given. Alice didn't 'sign' the cert but made her mark.
I haven't been able to locate a birth record for an Ann Morrison in either Chorley, Bolton or anywhere nearby around 1865. My thinking is that ALICE perhaps handed over her daughter ANN to the Morrison family sometime between her christening (found on Family Search) on 26 March 1865 and the 1871 census. Possibly no legal transfer/adoption as ANN was using the name MANN at her marriage.
I seem to have reached stalemate here! I'm fairly certain ANN MANN/ ANN MORRISON is one and the same person. Does that seem reasonable? I can't locate ALICE MANN and I don't know where to start looking for the possible ROBERT FISHWICK!
After her marriage it's all straight forward and quite normal ::)
Your comments are welcomed. Thank you!
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Hello and welcome to rootschat
well here's a bit more to the mystery - provided all the people are the relevant ones of course :
Marriage: Isaac Morrison to Ann Rodget 1852
1851 census HO107; Piece: 2263; Folio: 253; Page: 26
Leigh Row Chorley
Thomas Rodgett 49 yrs handloom weaver b Chorley
Ann Rodgett 52 yrs b Chorley
Ann Rodgett daur 18 yrs piecer in cotton mill b Chorley
James Fishwick son 32 yrs sawyer journeyman b Chorley
John Fishwick nephew 17 yrs labourer b Cheshire Seacombe
by the way Ann is daughter on all the censuses
best wishes
heywood
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Can't be sure of the Rodgetts in 1841.
Can't quite work out relationships in 1851. Thinking that perhaps Ann was formerly Fishwick- James her son and John her husband's nephew? Although they are shown as son/nephew of Thomas as he is head.
Will carry on for a while.
Hope I'm complicating matters too much here - Family Search has a John Fishwick born to Hugh and Elizabeth Wallasey. They are in 1851 census- born Chorley living Seacombe. So that kind of puts them together.
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Hi,
O.K. I went off on a bit of a tangent with some possibly interesting results (or not).
I just cut the census bit out as it has been found for you but wondered about the possibility of Ann bring up another brothers child e.g. Robert Fishwick.
Anyway typing in a Robert Fishwick born Chorley brings up one on the 1851 census aged 28 living in Chorley. 1861 he is a widow living in Walton le Dale. 1871 he is married again living in Atherton BUT he has children born in HALLIWELL. This is where your Ann Mann was born - Lodge Vale is in Halliwell, Bolton. It is also the place that Ann Morrison and family states as being born in the 1891 census.
I am sure there is a connection with it all but just haven`t figured it out yet.
I just thought you should know.
Regards,
Mo
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Hi Mo,
found a James Fishwick born 1818 Chorley to Ann Fishwick on Family Search. Not sure if it is a red herring though at the moment - also not sure if the Thomas Rodgett I have found in 1841 married (possibly - because it doesn't show relationships) to Mary is the same one who is married to Ann in 1851. :-\
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Robert Fishwick sounds plausible.
Ann Rodgett would be sister/ half sister/ step sister to the Fishwicks??
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Family Search - Robert Fishwick born 1822 Chorley- mother Hannah Fishwick
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So .....perhaps....
Robert Fishwick is brother of some kind to Ann Rodgett who marries Isaac Morrison and raises Ann as a daughter.
There are a couple of Alice Mann's as I recall- quite young on 1861 in Bolton area- 11/ 12 yrs making them only 16/17 yrs in 1865 - Robert would be so much older and also Alice was formerly 'Rofs'.
would be glad of your opinion mo.
best wishes
heywood
also one who is a widow with several young children but she's remarried by 1871. Am stuck now so will stop.
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Hi Heywood,
I feel sure we are on the right track here. Robert Fishwick is certainly living in the right place at the right time and he was a Cotton Spinner as stated on Ann`s marriage. As for the births of Robert and James as we know on Parish/census records Ann and Hannah are interchangeable as it depended on what the person recording it felt like writing.
A pity the Bolton/Halliwell parish records are not very well documented on the internet. I have checked the 1861 and 71 census CDs for the people who were living at 11 Lodge Vale but there are no obvious clues.
By the way, Stanleymansion, the Alice Mann formerly Rofs should probably read formerly ROSS. It is the old fashioned way of writing a double s. This would suggest that either she was a widow or still married at the time of Ann`s birth.
Regards,
Mo
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I thought I'd checked for Alice Ross but realise now it was only in census!
There is a 1838 marriage on Free BMD to William Mann. (possible spouse anyway)
1851 and 1861 have this couple - a son William is there in 1861 and in 1871 he is a nephew with a Ross family. There is a death on Free BMD for a William in 1863 and a death for an Alice in 1866 but she is listed as 52 yrs old which is a few years older than the ages of the censuses.
It's still a bit circumspect at the moment - stanleymansion - you could send for the death certificate of Alice to see where she was living etc. --1861 she was at Blundell Coourt Bolton - don't know how close this is to Lodge Vale.
It does seem to be coming together though- jot it all down and see what you think.
regards
heywood
Stanleymansion - don't know how familiar you are with research on these sites we mention - just ask if you need further explanation.
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WOW!! You guys - absolutely amazing stuff here! I've only been doing my tree for about 2 months so it's still a steep learning curve. Felt like I was hitting a brick wall on this one and didn't know where to go next.
I found Ann Rodgett but assumed that wasn't going to give me a lead so ignored it. I will write everything down as you suggest and follow the lines you've given me. All seems very promising and can't wait to get started. Must get my jobs done first though otherwise I'll still be sat here at midnight.
Thank you very much Heywood and Mosiefish; will report back to you very soon. I'm so excited!!
Lyn ;D
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Hi
I havent got deeply into this plot - but I did read your first post and a thought occured to me. You may have already done it
Are the Morrison famliy still at the same address in 1901? I know the key player, Ann, has left and married (if she is the same person)
If they ARE there, but without Ann, it would add evidence that Ann Mann and Ann Morrsion are the same. It would be very far fetched for the Morrisons to move out, the Manns to move with a daughter the same age, and then for the Morrisons to move back again!
If they ARE there, but still with Ann, then there are two Anns.
If they arent there - nothing is gained and it was a waste of time!
Just a thought
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Hi Again,
Looking back to the 1841 entry for Thomas Rodgett transcribed as Rodegtt - Reference H107/525/6 Folio 38 page 28.
There is a 15 - 19 year old Robt. Rodgett - hmmm! I wonder if he might actually be Robert Fishwick Hannah`s son?
Marriage on www.lan-opc.org.uk of Ann Fiswick SPINSTER to Thomas Rodget BACHELOR at St. Laurence, Chorley 7th February, 1831. Witnesses were William and Susan Aspinall.
Regards,
Mo
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Well done Mo - it looks as though it's coming together now. I hadn't been able to get them together for 1841.
lizdb - you are so right - just supposing we had done all this and then found out it was the wrong one :( - -
I had already checked that and perhaps mo and stanleymansion had done too-
thankfully all is well and it looks as though Ann is the right one.
best wishes to you all
heywood
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The link between Ann (b1865) and William/Alice Mann is quite compelling. As is the link between Ann Morrison (nee Rodget) and Robert Fishwick.
I'm stll not at all clear as to why Ann put Robert as her father or what the link is between the Manns and Fishwicks.
Richard
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here's how I see it (I think)
Ann Fishwick has illegitimate son Robert. She then marries Mr Rodget.
Then I got stuck - but Mo found them as Rodegtt in 1841 and Ann is the daughter of Thomas and Ann Rodget. She would then be half sister to Robert Fishwick (in 1841 census as Rodegtt??)
Ann Rodget marries Isaac Morrison.
Elsewhere - Alice Ross marries William Mann. He dies. She has a child Ann (b 1865) with Robert Fishwick who has been married, widowed and remarries later (if Mo's info is the same Robert). Alice possibly dies not long after birth (there is a possible death)
FOr whatever reason, perhaps because he is a lone dad, Robert does not rear his daughter but she is reared by Ann and Isaac as a daughter but in reality she is the child of Ann's half brother, Robert.
I have to say, I haven't verified all the info- only what I have posted. It has been fascinating and I do hope that it does work out.
Kath
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Hiya,
Well put Heywood.
By the way, Alice and William Mann can be found on the 1841 census under the name MAUN. They are living on Halliwell Road, Little Bolton. Also living with them is a John ROSS and William ROSS both down as aged 15 so 15 - 19. HO107/536/8 folio 41 page 10.
I am sure we have the right Alice and family now.
Regards,
Mo
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Hi!
This is the most amazing 'adventure'! I have spent almost all day checking the various references, cross referencing and writing it all down. I have found sites I haven't previously visited thanks to you all!
Kath, thanks for setting that all down that's exactly the conclusion I have just reached but couldn't possibly have spelled it out as you did! Or even got anywhere like this far without your help!
So yes basically Ann Mann was brought up by her Dad's (Robert Fishwick) half sister (Ann Morrison nee Rodgett). Ann Mann's half brother William Mann (b.1854) went to live with the Ross family following Alice's death in 1866.
The only puzzles remaining are 1) I doubt I'll ever trace Robert Fishwick's Dad ::) and 2) there's a problem with good old Ann or Hannah Fishwick!
On www.lan-opc.org.uk there are
1) Hannah Fishwick born to Thomas Fishwick and Ann baptised 16.11.1794 living in Charnock Richard.
2) Ann Fishwick born to Thomas Fishwick and Ellen born 7.11.1796 baptised 12.1.1797, living I presume in Chorley. And ... .... wait for it ... ... yet another one
3) Ann Fishwick born to Thomas Fishwick and Ellen born 18.4.1798 baptised 20.5.1798, again living in Chorley!
I can't locate a burial for the first of Thomas and Ellen's girls.
Also both Robert Fishwick b. 1822 and James Fishwick b. 1818, who would seem to be brothers from the census info as they are both sons, have mothers Hannah and Ann respectively!
This family is truly doing my head in!!
Thanks Kath and Mo for all your research and everyone else who has chipped in. My Dad will be chuffed to bits when I tell him about his Grandmothers early life. Whether or not he wil believe me is another matter!
Thank you so much,
Lyn ;)
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Lyn,
well the Ann and Hannah are interchangeable as mo said so that's ok - usually the 2nd child would be the correct one because as you say the first one would have died (that's logic for you :D) However which one of the ones you mention is a different matter.
I suppose the only way would be to check parish records.
Sometimes I have seen the alleged father named in the parish records so that may be a way to go.
On the other hand your dad is going to be amazed at the intricacies of his family!!
best wishes
Kath
PS 1841 has a Hellen Fishwick 70 yrs pauper living Back Street Chorley - no Thomas or Ann of the right age to be a parent to Ann born c 1796.
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Thanks for that Heywood :).
Yep you're right my Dad was totally amazed and there was him thinking he had such a dull family background! :P
I've had another look at the Ann/Hannah situation and can't quite get my head round the James and Robert thing. I've checked all the records I can and it seems that Ann and Hannah are 2 different people! Ann has parents Thomas and Ellen and is the mother of James b.1818. Hannah has parents Thomas and Ann and she seems to be Robert's, b.1822, mother. Yet the census information suggests Robert and James are brothers as they each appear, at some point, as a son of Ann/Hannah Rodgett! I think ... Aaaarrrggh... I'm so confused! :'( I don't think I'm cut out for this family history malarkey, you lot seem to have it off to a T whereas I need a cuppa T!
Cheers :o)
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Hey these are mine maybe we should compare notes!
Louise
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Louise
Really? Are Alice and Ann yours as well as mine? If so we really do need to compare notes!! This has been one really difficult nut to crack but I think I've found, with the help of Mo and Heywood, the answer!
Can we do private messaging through Roots?
Look forward to hearing from you,
Lyn :)
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These have been driving me mad for years. There must have been 2 Ann/Hannahs born at the same time because I found a burial for one in Chorley on the opc site.
This is the extra info I can add.....
Robert FISHWICK's death cert says
Leigh (subdistrict Atherton) in the County of Lancaster 1890
2nd April 1890 18 Hampson Street Atherton USD / Robert FISHWICK / Male / 66years / Operative Cotton Spinner / Humour Disease about the Elbow joint 15 months – Phthisis 3 months – Certified by RJ Martin LRCP / Alice FISHWICK daughter present at the death 18 Hampson Street Atherton / 2.4.1890
and the cemetery entry is
Atherton Cemetery, New Cem – 290
Robert Fishwick aged 66yrs buried on 5th April 1890
George White aged 5mths buried on 19th May 1891
Betsy Fishwick aged 62yrs buried on 20th January 1896
Elizabeth Ellen Fishwick aged 45yrs buried on 26th April 1897
Winifred Fishwick aged 23hrs buried on 18th January 1913
His second marriage cert says
1867 in the Church of St Peter in the Parish of St Peter, Halliwell in the County of Lancaster
190 / 1867 / Dec 25th / Robert FISHWICK / Full age / Widower / Spinner / St Peter’s, Halliwell/ --/--. Betsy BRADLEY / Full age / Spinster/ - / St Peter’s, Halliwell/--/--.
All4 signed with a mark Witnesses John GREENHALGH and Mary Ann Rideout (nee PILLING)
No fathers for either of them.
Parish entry for first marriage
Feb 8th 1846 St Georges Chorley, Robert Fishwick 23yrs B. Spinner, Leigh Row. Mary Leigh aged 23 S. Cowling. Married. Fathers: Hannah Fishwick / John Leigh.
M.cert copy1846 in St George’s Church in the parish of Chorley
286 February 8th / Robert FISHWICK / 23 years / bachelor / Spinner / Leigh Row / -/-
Mary LEE / 23 / Spinster / - / Cowling / John LEE / Collier. All signed with a mark, witnesses John and Alice BROMILOW.
Now I need to sort through the above and see how it fits with the rest of what I have.
Cheers Louise
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Hi Lyn
Sorry not Ann and Alice but Robert Fishwick is definitely my ancestor (Great great grandfather). I wasn't aware of your branch at all and need to try to get my head round how they fit in.
Louise
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Hi again further information - much of it contradictory..
Hannah's death cert -
1855 Chorley Chorley
81 25th March 1855 Hannah RODGET Female 58 Wife of Thomas RODGET handloom weaver Dropsy not certified The mark of Mary Blackledge Leigh Row Chorley 22.3.1855 George Houghton Registrar
A2A has bastardy bonds as follows. I haven't sent for them yet. Is one for Robert ??
Preston: Michaelmas 1820 - ref. QSP/2773
FILE - Chorley. Order of filiation and maintenance of bastard son of Robert Kaye, labourer, and Hannah Fishwick, singlewoman - ref. QSP/2773/46 - date: c1820
Preston: Epiphany 1825 - ref. QSP/2841
FILE - Charnock Richard. Order of filiation and maintenance of bastard son of Thomas Shaw, labourer, and Hannah Fishwick, singlewoman - ref. QSP/2841/59 - date: 1824 30 Nov
The nephew John FISHWICK Hannah has living with her in 1851 appears to be the son of Hugh, son of Roger and Ellen, but the opc has their daughter Hannah dying in 1817 aged 17. There is also a brother William also a sawyer on the opc as son of Roger and Ellen. This is a link but I wonder if the use of the word nephew may be looser; I have found "cousins" who are 2nd or 3rd cousins or more distant relatives still.
If you think the FISHWICKs are bad you should try his wife's family. Betsy BRADLEY uses the name of the head of the household for all family members on the census no matter what the relationship over 3 generations. She doesn't know where she was born or who her father was or the father of some of her children.
My head hurts
Louise
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Hi Louise ;)
Wow; this is so...... complicated! I can't believe how much material you have managed to unearth. I had no idea records such as those you've detailed actually existed! I found the site for A2A, it's not one I've come across before but looks really interesting. Not sure whether I'd know how to use it though ::) don't think I'd even know where to start looking!
Before I launch into this and forget completely, you said Robert Fishwick is your Great great grandfather. He appears to be mine too which in effect makes us third cousins! Do you suppose there could be a lot more of us out there? I guess so, going off Robert's track record so far! I think we became part of the family by virtue of the fact that he had a lull between marriages and took up with Alice Mann to occupy him for a while. Hence the arrival on the scene of my Great grandmother, Ann Mann. Alice died the following year and Ann was brought up by Robert's mum's daughter Ann Rodgett! Ann Rodgett married Isaac Morrison and Ann Mann lived with them! So complicated ??? I only started tracing my family history two months ago and it's been tough going almost from the start. I've reached brick walls or dead ends on nearly everything I've tried to do! Headache is an understatement!
I haven't concerned myself too much with the Betsy angle but I did notice as I was putting all the details down that everyone seemed to have the same names! Thought it seemed rather odd but I'm reaching the stage where I'm not surprised by this family anymore. I thought I was left with establishing whether Ann or Hannah Fishwick was Robert's mother and trying to find the father, and working out whether James is actually Robert's brother, half brother or what the hell. It actually seems to be a whole lot more convoluted than this, I think!
Hmmm... I've got it all down on paper but I can't make much sense of it all, like you say there seem to be so many contradictions. I did at one point, a few weeks ago, write down the families of all the Fishwick's I could find but I ended up so confused because it wasn't obvious who belonged to who! They seem to be interchangeable as and when they feel fit! I will have to dig out those pages and have another look.
I haven't come across filiation and bastardy bonds before! How on earth did you manage to dig those up? It certainly looks on the face of it as though the later one is in respect of Robert, b. 1822, and I would think the earlier one is in respect of James b.1818.
So the Hannah, daughter of Roger and Ellen, who died in 1817, and presumably born about 1800, is yet another one to the 2 Ann/Hannah's I'd already got lined up?! Earlier post d/d 1 May refers. Perhaps the Bastardy bonds may provide some answers. Maybe this other Hannah is a red herring although as you say there is the link with the nephew.
Thanks for getting involved; I know I don't seem to have much to offer as you have already done much of the spade work but it's good to have someone to bounce ideas off! I can't think straight anymore! I shall go away and cry :'( and then try and think some more. Thanks for all the info ;D
Speak soon
Lyn
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Called at the records office in Preston last night.
Neither of the bastardy orders listed named the child. It seems amazing that there were printed forms for this sort of thing, where the Clerk just filled in the names and numbers. There was even a different form for when the father did not answer the summons.
QSP/2773/46 23 May 1820
Hannah Fishwick, Single woman, hath lately been delivered of a male Bastard Child, in the Township of Chorley
.. did declare that she the said Hannah Fishwick was on the eighth day of September 1818 delivered of a male Bastard Child....
And that Robert Kaye of Chorley in the said county, Labourer, did beget the said Bastard on her Body, and is the father of the same.
..and that the said Robert Kaye hath not appeared before us...
Therefore we order as well for the better Relief of the said Township of Chorley as for Sustentation and Relief of the said Bastard Child, that the said Robert Kaye shall and do forthwith upon the notice of this our order, pay or cause to be paid unto the Church-wardens and Overseers of the Poor of the said Township of Chorley or to some one of them, the sum of Ten Pounds and six shillings for and towards the Charges and Expenses incident to the Birth of the said Bastard Child, and the maintenance of the said Bastard Child, from the time of his Birth to the time of making this our Order, the further sum of twelve shillings for and towards the cost of apprehending the said Robert Kaye and the sum of sixteen shillings for and towards the Costs of this Order of Filiation...
In addition Robert Kaye was to pay Two shillings weekly to maintain the child, and Hannah One shilling and sixpence weekly.
QSP/2841/59 30 Nov 1824
...on the fifth day of April One thousand eight hundred and twenty four delivered of a male Bastard Child..
..Thomas Shaw to pay one pound sixteen shillings for and towards the Charges and Expenses incident to the Birth of the said Bastard Child, and the maintenance of the said Bastard Child, from the time of his Birth to the time of making this our Order, and the sum of sixteen shillings for and towards the Costs of this Order of Filiation..
Thomas to pay One shilling weekly
Hannah to pay One shilling weekly.
The year of birth on the first order looks very strange to modern eyes, with the figure eights written almost sideways.
The first of these orders fits in with the baptism at St Laurence's of James Fishwick, son of Ann Fishwick, of 16 Oct 1818. I looked for the second child in the registers for Coppull, the most likely church for Charnock Richard, Eccleston (next likely) and St Laurence's without success. Maybe my eyesight was failing and I missed him. :(
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Dear Andrew
Thank you very much for going to such trouble. Thomas Shaw looks like a likely candidate for Robert's father.
Best wishes and thanks
Louise
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well stanleymansion - this is so interesting. I bet you didn't bargain for this much info. ;)
best wishes to you all
heywood
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]Hi Andrew
You are a star! Thank you so much for digging out those records for us.
I never imagined that these sorts of records existed never mind the large number of people that seemed to go through this process. Until now I had read little about the Poor Law Acts; it's certainly an eye-opener! These two guys had a fair amount of money to pay out for what perhaps started out as an evening's pleasure!!
Looks as though we've found one dad, so will have to keep fishing!
Thanks again Andrew. By the way, did this just grab your imagination, or do you have a personal involvement somewhere along the line?[/color]
Hi Louise
Looks like Robert Kaye is James Fishwick's dad all the dates tie up so I think that is a dead cert. As for Robert, not sure :-\ . I've got all 'the Fishwicks and Fiswicks(!)' spread out on the lounge floor and I'm trying to put them into families, unsuccessfully at the moment.
So, I wonder who this other male child is born 5 April 1924? Wonder whether this one is the same Hannah or yet another? I was sure that was going to be our Robert too! I got the 1822 date from a christening date of 13/12/1822 on Family Search, only the mothers name of Hannah Fishwick is given.
I've found someone on Genes with a Robert Fishwick 1822 Chorley, I've emailed, so will see if anything there! Also someone called Louise with a Robert born 1824 Chorley. Is this you? Also quite a few people with Hannah Fishwick 1797-1799; worth following up? Has someone been down this way already?
This is becoming so convoluted. Can of worms? We could write a book!
Hi Heywood
Isn't this great!! I never imagined anything like this would happen! The amount of info is incredible ... and everyone is so so helpful! Thanks for your good wishes; you know you are very welcome to toss in any thoughts that spring to mind. We need all the help we can get!
Lyn
PS Just occured to me ... does anyone think we should link to another thread with a Robert Fishwick title? Seems we've moved on from Ann and Alice somewhat. I don't know how to do that though!!
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Hi Lyn, hi everyone,
Now we've got almost too much information, too many Ann/Hannahs and too many Roberts. The tricky bit is always knowing which bits are red herrings. I'm not yet ready to give up on Thomas SHAW as a dad. Roberts date of birth is not yet certain.
The censuses give ages of 15 in 1841 (they rounded ages in that one), 28 in 1851, 37 in 1861, 47 in 1871, and 57 in 1881. He was 66 when he died in 2nd April 1890. These make 1824 as likely as 1822.
Now for the next challenge... everyone seems so resourceful I thought I would ask for some thoughts about Robert's wife.
Let's start in 1881...
- Robert FISHWICK Head M Male 57 Chorley, Lancs, Optv Cotn Spinner
Betsy FISHWICK Wife M Female 47 Newton Moor, Lancashire, England
James FISHWICK Son U Male 19 Halloway, Lancashire, Optv Cotton Piecer
George FISHWICK Son Male 13 Halloway, Lancashire, England
Elizabeth FISHWICK Dau Female 11 Atherton, Lancashire, England Scholar
Alice FISHWICK Dau Female 9 Atherton, Lancashire, England Scholar
Robert FISHWICK Son Male 7 Atherton, Lancashire, England Scholar
Janett FISHWICK Dau Female 4 Atherton, Lancashire, England Scholar
Same address different household
Alfred WHITE Lodger Head M Male 21 Lowton, Lancs Operv Cotton Spinner
Rachel WHITE Wife M Female 22 Halloway, Lancs
John WHITE Son Male 9 m Atherton, Lancashire
Mary WHITE Dau Female 2 Atherton, Scholar
Source Information: Dwelling 83 Elizabeth St, Atherton,
Family History Library Film 1341911
Public Records Office Reference RG11. Piece / Folio 3809 / 50 p 19
We know from marriage data that Rachel's maiden name is Bradley and the parish records give no details of a father. Betsy is her mother also maiden name BRADLEY but in 1871 they are all called FISHWICK
- Robert FISHWICK Head M Male 47 Optv Cotn Spinner, Chorley,
Betsy FISHWICK Wife M Female 37 wife of do, Newton, Lancashire,
Elizabeth FISHWICK Dau Unm 19 Piecer in cotton mill, Chorley, Lancs (his)
James FISHWICK Son 10 Halliwell, Lancashire, (Theirs)
Rachel FISHWICK Dau 13 Cotton Piecer do (hers)
George FISHWICK Son 3 Halliwell, Lancashire (theirs)
Elizabeth FISHWICK Dau 1 Atherton, Lancashire, (theirs)
Peter FOGG Lodger Mar 27 Optv Cotn Spinner Bolton
Jane FOGG wife Mar 27 Cotton operative Belmont, Lancs
At 135 Bolton Old Road, Atherton
in 1861 Robert is widowed and living with the older Elizabeth (His wife, 2 of his daughters and his daughter in law were all Elizabeth FISHWICK) so I looked for Betsy and Rachel. No luck as Bradley but I did find this
1861 – Possible entry with surname Greenalgh. No likely Bradleys or Betsys
William GREENHALGH H M 49 Cotton handloom weaver, Bolton
Alice GREENHALGH Wife M 46 Bolton
John GREENHALGH Son 13 Piecer in cotton factory, Bolton
Betsey GREENHALGH Dau 26 Cotton factory worker Bolton
Elizabeth GREENHALGH U 17 Powerloom weaver Bolton,
Rachel GREENHALGH D 4 Scholar, Halliwell
At 8 Hill Street Halliwell
I may seem a long shot but for 3 things, one of the witnesses to Robert and Betsy's marriage is living next door but one the other is John GREENHALGH; there is a marriage in Bolton in 1843 between a William GREENHALGH and a Betsy BRADLEY my Grandfather was adamant there were Greenhalghs in the family. But then why is she a spinster with no mention of Greenhalgh on her M cert. And why is she down as born Bolton here whereas later she says Newton and Newton Moor?
Going back further I found
1851 -Nile St, Great Bolton HO107/2210 F339
William GREENHALGH, head, married, 40, weaver, b. Bolton Lancs.
Alice GREENHALGH, wife, married, 38, factory hand, b. Bolton Lancs.
John GREENHALGH, son, 5, scholar, b. Bolton Lancs. (Theirs)
Betsy GREENHALGH, Daur, 16, factory hand, b. Bolton Lancs. (Hers)
M(e)ahiah?? GREENHALGH, Daur, unmarried, 19, factory hand, b. Bolton
Lancs. (His)
Mary HUNNIFORD, lodger, 13, factory hand, b. Bolton Lancs.
and in 1841
York Street Bolton
Mary COLLINS 40 independent means
William COLLINS 1
Anne ORMROD 33 washer woman
Alice BRADLEY 75 ditto
Alice BRADLEY 27 Cotton **nter
James BRADLEY 37 Labourer
Betsy BRADLEY 5
Does anyone have any thoughts to add??? :-\
Thanks and sorry for the ramble
Louise ???
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Hello,
it's a bit late to take all this in but I see a marriage for a William Greenhalgh and Alice Bradley 1843 Bolton (not Betsey) - am I confused? :-\ Are they Betsey's parents as in census details you have given?
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Hi
Your right about 2 things - It is too late, and it IS Alice. I think Alice is Betsy's mum and William her step dad. I think Robert, Betsy and Rachel are all illegitimate.
Good night
Best wishes
Louise
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I do have a bit of a personal interest. I have a couple of Fishwicks in my tree - very distant, but it's a local name. J. Fishwick and Sons still run buses and coaches from their Leyland base.
When I'm getting stuck on some part of my own tree, it's nice to get some success on someone else's. Proves the brain is not dead! I've found a good few nuggets in these court records, including the errant father of one of my ggg grandmothers.
.. And I happen to live in Charnock Richard. Always keen to hear the local scandal, even if it is nearly 200 years old!
A pointer for searching A2A. I find the most useful search is something like:-
fishwick near20 charnock
which looks for the words "fishwick" and "charnock" within 20 words of each other. There will be times when you get the first word in one item and the second word in the next, but it gives quite decent results.
This search also pulls up a bastardy order for the daughter of George Calderbank, labourer, and Ann Fishwick, in 1817. Any sisters obvious in the info you have?
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Hello everyone,
Now 1881 has :
Robert Fishwick b 1824 Chorley married to Betsey living in Atherton.
Robert Fishwick b 1826 Chorley married to Alice living in Bradford Manchester
Robert Fishwick b 1818 Bolton married to Harriet living in Halliwell.
1871 has:
Robert and Betsy
Robert and Alice
Robert (now born Lancaster) and Harriet
plus
Robert b 1818 a lodger born Little Bolton - married and living in Great Bolton - wonder if this is the same as Harriet's husband?
1861 has:
Robert b Whittle le Woods with Alice
Robert born Teatern with Harriet
can't see the others at first look but there must be one who belongs to you Saxlingham
at the moment I am not going to explore this but would the real Robert Fishwick please stand up?
Are we referring to the same Robert in Saxlingham's family being the same one who is father to Ann Mann?
I'm not sure if I have a theory here - just presenting this to you.
best wishes
heywood
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Hi
I am fairly confident that the below are all for "my" Robert FISHWICK senior, and that he is Ann MANNs father, she even has the Fishwick nose.
1841 - Census, Chorley. Leigh Row.
Thomas Rodget 35, Weaver.
Hannah, wife 40. Robert, 15. Ann, 8.
Chorley Rate Book 1849 and 1850 Robert Fishwick Cowling Bridge, (district just outside Chorley.)
1851 –
HO/107/2263/279. 65 Cowling Bridge, Chorley
Robert FISHWICK/Head/Marr/28/Cotton Spinner/Lancashire, Chorley/
Mary FISHWICK/Wife/Marr/28/Go. Pease/Lancashire, Manchester//
1861 – Piece No 3141 Folio 17b
They are in Walton Le Dale, which is just north of Chorley.
- Robert FISHWICK, Widow, 37 Cotton Spinner, Lancs Chorley
Elizabeth FISHWICK, Dau 9, Scholar, Chorley,
John WADDINGTON, Nephew, 14, Cotton Spinner Piecer, Lancs Blackburn
Later censuses are posted in a previous posting
Louise
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]Hi Everyone!
Isn't this just so convoluted! Going to respond to each of you separately otherwise I think it will be a worse mess than ever![/color]
Louise,
Had a look at all the details you've come up with and I would say you are definitely on the right track here. As I see it, I might have got it wrong but have tried to check things as I've gone along:-
ALICE BRADLEY (B.1814) gave birth to Betsy Bradley b. 1835, father seemingly unknown! (illegitimate)
In 1841 WILLIAM GREENHALGH (age 29)married to ANNE GREENALGH (age 25) and have EMELIA (age 9)
Several possibilities for a death for Anne in 1841/1842.
WILLIAM GREENHALGH marries ALICE BRADLEY Q4 1843.
In 1851 they have William's 'Emelia' and Alice's 'Betsy'. They also have a child between them 'John' b.1845.
In 1861 we have
WILLIAM GREENHALGH age 49
ALICE GREENHALGH age 46
BETSY GREENHALGH age 26 (nee Bradley)
?ELIZABETH GREENHALGH age 17 (W&A)missing from 1841?
JOHN GREENHALGH age 13 (W&A)
RACHEL GREENHALGH age 4 (no Greenhalgh on birth index, but there is a Bradley)
By 1871 Wiliam seems to be living as a lodger, 48 Lark Street, Bolton,Widower age 59. About 8 Alice Greenhalgh's died Bolton 1861-1865, no DOB given so could be any!
BETSY marries ROBERT FISHWICK 25.12.1867
In 1871 There's
BETSY FISHWICK age 37
ROBERT FISHWICK age 47
ELIZABETH FISHWICK age 19 (From Robert's marriage to Mary Lee) (Robert's)
RACHEL FISHWICK (born Bradley? ) age 13 (Betsy's daughter)
JAMES b. 1860/61 Halliwell (2 Bradleys, 12 Greenhalgh, 0 Fishwicks)(Roberts?)
GEORGE FISHWICK age 3 (Robert's)
ELIZABETH FISHWICK age 1 (Robert's)
Think that sums it up! What a complex life!!
Whilst all this is going on Robert is trying to repopulate the earth with his kin so in comes my Ann Mann in 1865. Goodness knows how he ever had time to spin cotton!
Distinctive Fishwick nose eh? well that confirms it!!
Heywood!
Definitely the same Robert don't think there's any doubt about it now. Totally conclusive I should say. All we have to do now is confirm which Hannah/Ann is his Mum and decide if a certain Mr.Shaw is his dad! Easy? I think not, hee hee!
Andrew
Not managed to dig up any sisters yet, but will keep you posted!
I'm still not having any success with A2A. Am I perhaps putting my search request in the wrong box? I did as you suggested but then it says do you mean...? Having yet managed to find a thing!
You're not too far from us, we're in Thornton Cleveleys about 35 minutes away down the M55/M6! I pass through quite often on trips etc...
Thank you for helping us out with all your searching!
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]I've had enough for one day, it's too much! Will come back to the "Life of Robert!" tomorrow, maybe ...[/color]
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Hi again Louise!
Think I've gone off on one there! I was trying to refer back to what you'd said and keep checking as I went along but in so doing managed to miss a few bits of confirmation along the way!
Anyway think it makes sense now, but how confusing with all these illegitimates along the way :-X Interesting though ::) And all the wrong names and places of birth!
So now we've got the nose confirmed and we know I'm from Ann Mann's line, which line, of the many, have you descended from?
Speak soon
Lyn ;)
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I am so glad that you are both on the track of the right Robert - I wasn't trying to throw a spanner in the works but last night was too late to try to think about it and when I got in from a hard day's work my mind wasn't up to functioning too well - just reading all those Roberts - oh my ;D
I am so glad you have found new relatives - it's great and part of all this searching!
best wishes to you all
heywood
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Hi All
Let's look at the "repopulating" aspect I think not.
If we look at the 1881 census
Robert FISHWICK Head M Male 57 Chorley, Lancs, Optv Cotn Spinner
Betsy FISHWICK Wife M Female 47 Newton Moor, Lancashire, England
James FISHWICK Son U Male 19 Halloway, Lancashire, Optv Cotton Piecer
I have been unable to trace him further and wondered whether he might have emigrated
George FISHWICK Son Male 13 Halloway, Lancashire, England
George died aged 14 JunQ 1882
Elizabeth FISHWICK Dau Female 11 Atherton, Lancashire, England Scholar
Alice FISHWICK Dau Female 9 Atherton, Lancashire, England Scholar
My mother remembers these two and thinks neither had any children
Robert FISHWICK Son Male 7 Atherton, Lancashire, England Scholar
My great grandfather - 4 children and 4 grandchildren
Janett FISHWICK Dau Female 4 Atherton, Lancashire, England Scholar
I have no further information about her.
83 Elizabeth St, Atherton, Lancashire, England
1891 - Betsy FISHWICK Head Widow Lancs, Newton
Elizabeth FISHWICK Daur S 21 Cotton Spinner (employed) Lancs, Atherton
Alice FISHWICK Daur S 19 Cotton Spinner (employed) Lancs, Atherton
Robert FISHWICK Son S 17 Cotton Spinner (employed) Lancs, Turton
Hannah FISHWICK Daur S 14 Cotton Spinner (employed) Lancs, Atherton
185 Mealhouse Lane Atherton
and finally (until the 1911 census comes out)
1901Robert FISHWICK Head S 27 Cotton Spinner (worker) Lancs Turton
Elizabeth FISHWICK sister S 31 Lancs, Atherton
Alice FISHWICK sister S 29 Cotton card room hand (worker) Lancs, Atherton
Jane H FISHWICK sister S 24 Cotton card room hand (worker) Lancs, Atherton
150, Tyldesley Road Atherton, Lancs
and from a different angle...is there any chance my mother might have met Ann MANN? She had quite a collection of great Aunts. What happened to Ann after she married?
Best wishes
Louise
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Hi Louise, Hi Heywood!!
This is such an intriguing tale; I'll be almost sorry to see it solved, if we ever do track Robert's parents! Can't wait to update my Dad tomorrow he really won't believe this he was agog at the last lot of info and this is something else!
The puzzling thing about the 1822/1824 date is it really could be either. On the one hand the census ages kind of go down the middle, the Bastardy order is for a child born 5/4/ 1824 and we have a Christening from parish records for 13/12/1822. The latter two are irrefutable. We don't know the name of the child in the former, only that the mother is Hannah Fishwick, and it is Charnock Richard not Chorley. The Christening is a Robert, no father named and mother Hannah Fishwick, in Chorley!
Looking at the census ages these don't altogether tie up with either date i.e.
If Dec 1822 it should be, from 1851 on, 28, 38,48,58.
If 5/4/1824 it should be 26, 36,46 and 56. What have we actually got? Would you believe 28, 37,47,57!
At Robert's marriage to Mary Lee on 8/2/1846 he was 23 which ties up with Dec 1822. He would only have been 21 had it been 5/4/ 1824.
At his death on 2/4/1890 he is 66. Our dates would have made him either 67 or 65 almost 66!
Will have to ponder on this ... I'd really like to find the answer. Hope it's not staring us in the face!! ::)
Who is Winifred Fishwick, buried in Robert's grave? Did she belong to Robert junior, your great grandfather? I note the maiden name on the Birth Index is Grundy so she presumably was either Robert's or James' child.
Ann Mann, where my story started! Ann married my Great grandfather William Halliwell in Chorley in September 1893. They had three children, William Edward, my Grandad, born 1894 in Chorley, Fanny, also born in Chorley, in 1896 and Louisa Hannah born in Blackburn in 1905. Fanny and Louisa never married and remained childless. William Edward married Ada Cassidy and had two children, my Dad born in 1932 in Blackburn and a daughter Edith born 1934 who lived only a few weeks. Ann died in Q3 of 1932 in Blackburn age 67. Your Mum might have a recollection of some of the family but whether or not she ever met Ann Mann?! My Dad's side of the family all hailed from the Chorley, Euxton and Blackburn areas and there appear to have been any number of cousins, aunts and uncles.
I don't know whether Betsy Fishwick (nee Bradley) ever knew about Ann Mann. If so, when Ann's Mum died in 1866, why didn't Ann go to live with her Dad Robert and Betsy and all the other children including Elizabeth from his first marriage? Instead she lived with Robert's half sister Ann Morrison (nee Rodgett, daughter of Hannah Fishwick and Thomas Rodgett). I think the 'sleepover' with Alice Mann must have been kept a closely guarded secret only to be unearthed by us 140 years later!
Have a lovely weekend :)
Lyn
Here's a photo of Ann, William and the 3 children william Edward, Fanny and Louisa Hannah. Taken about 1907.
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Hi
Winifred was a very early clue in this puzzle, she was my grandfather's youngest sister and I can remember him telling me about her when I was a child. His mother Elizabeth FISHWICK nee GRUNDY died 3 years later.
best wishes
Louise
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Hello!
In the search for Robert's parents thought I'd have a look on the Ancestry trees and see if there were any leads on James Fishwick, born 1818. I came across a tree for the very same, or so it would seem.
The person had posted a message about the Chorley Fishwick puzzle so I have replied linking to this forum. Apparently on James' death certificate the parents are named as Robert Fishwick and Hannah Wood! ???
Aaaarghh......the mystery deepens. It seems James ended up in Australia!!
Thinking caps please .......
Lyn :D
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and here he is
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My mum says that she remembers Halliwell's visiting her grandparents, would have been around 1940. She thinks they were relatives rather than friends. They also appear on my grandparents' wedding seating plan.
Any ideas?
Louise