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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Warwickshire => Topic started by: Anarchia on Friday 20 April 07 00:23 BST (UK)
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I am seeking information on the following Tombs family:
James Tombs, born 1836-1841 in Hanley Castle, based on census returns, worked as a bedstead maker and later manufacturer hiring many people. I can't identify him on the 1841 or 1851 censuses.
James had children by 3 women:
Ellen Bidder m. James in 1856
Ellen and James, both of whom died early (based on Free bmd entries and censuses)
Fanny Sutton (was his servant, called herself Tombs on the 1891 census, but it is unlikely that they married)
Percy b. abt. 1878, Birmingham
Sydney, b. abt 1882, Birmingham
James, b. abt 1885, Birmingham
Fanny and sons emigrated to New Zealand in abt 1892
Elizabeth Simpson (also James servant initially) m. James in 1893
Constance b. 1893, Birmingham
Harold b. 1895, Birmingham
I have been unable to find birth records for James, Percy, Sydney or James jnr - I have looked under Sutton and Tombs for an entry for the sons on Free bmd. Could they not have been registered at all?
Any information would be great, but I would be particularly interested in contacting any descendents of Constance and Harold in case they can tell us more about James and his family.
Thanks,
Ana
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How about this one?
1851 HO107/2043 fol.91 p.7 Unicorn Inn, Great Malvern, Worcs
James Tombs servant 14 Tap Boy Hanley, Worcs
(indexed on ancestry as aged 19 which may have put you off)
Barbara
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Yes, that was my guess for 1851. Would Hanley Castle be written Hanley? If someone else seconds my guess, it seems more reliable!
My guess for 1841 is that he is listed as James Wagstaff in Worcestershire with a Tombs family. But, that seems a big guess.
Thanks,
Ana
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There is a James Tombs aged 7, with family, in Castle Morton, Worcs, maybe a bit young, but ages never what they seem in census. All these places are very close together, (have a look on genuki ) Castle Morton, Hanley Castle, Great Malvern
Will have another look tomorrow, past my bedtime now!
Barbara
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Thanks for the help. It is nice to have someone else's brain working on this too! It has been an issue in my husband's family for years, and it made it awkward for my husband's brother to get permission to live and work in England (as he could, then, if his grandfather was British).
I don't think either of the Castlemorton James Tombs can be mine, because I can trace them forwards on the later censuses. The stone mason's son definitely isn't. But, if you have the patience for it, a second opinion would, be nice.
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Just some thoughts.
... James Tombs, born 1836-1841 in Hanley Castle ...
Ellen Bidder m. James in 1856
Given the date of the marriage, one would suspect that an earlier birthdate would be more likely - if 1841, James would have been only 15/16 when he married which does seem a bit young. What age does the marriage certificate say? Father's name and occupation? Parental permission if he was a minor? James's occupation and address? And any clues in the names of witnesses?
Have you found Percy in the 1881? From FamilySearch, he isn't with James TOMBS & servant Fanny SUTTON in Edgbaston. Is it certain that he was James's son ...
JAP
PS: There's the birth on FreeBMD of a Sidney Tom SUTTON, Kings Norton (which included most of Edgbaston, it seems), Jun qtr 1882.
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Thanks for the tips. I just ordered James and Ellen's marriage certificate. It didn't occur to me that it would have the information I need on it. Fingers crossed that it has a father and decent birth information on it!
I agree that the earlier birthdate is more likely.
I am sure that Percy was also his child. Percy was my husband's grandfather and James continued to send them money and gifts after he married Elizabeth. He is on the 1891 census with his mother and brothers, but I do not have him on the 1881. I sort of suspect that he might be the Percy 'Smith' boarding/lodging with no one else of the same name in the house near to James and Fanny in 1881. But 'sort of suspect' doesn't count for much. I definitely can't find him as Sutton or Tombs in 1881.
I hadn't noticed the Sidney Tom Sutton entry. He was always Sydney, so I dodn't bother checking. I have asked a cousin to get in contact with one of his daughters to check his middle name - he did have one.
Thanks again,
Ana
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Would Hanley Castle be written Hanley?
Possibly, have been right through the 3 enumeration districts for the Parish of Hanley Castle, and in district 2 is the Village of Hanley (3 households) followed by the Village of Hanley Castle (8 households) then back to the Village of Hanley (3 households plus a large school) etc... and people often just gave the parish, or the village or the nearest town down as their birthplace on censuses.
Barbara
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There are only two Tombs families in the Parish of Hanley Castle in 1841:
HO107/1 fol.47 p.21 Coronation Lodge, Hanley Castle
Henry Tombs 30, Shoemaker
Ann " 30
Charles " 8
Henry " 5
Mary " 3
George " 4 months
Thomas Allen 40 Horsekeeper
Thomas Tombs 15 J.Shoemaker
all born in county
HO/107/1205/1 fol.25 p.3 Blackman's End, Hanley Castle
John Tombs 25 Ag. Lab.
Sarah " 20
James Purner 14 Ag. Lab (another James to consider! Not found in 1851)
Ann Tombs 6
Mary " 3
Benj. Hall 14 Ag. Lab
all born in county
Remember, adult ages in 1841 often rounded down to nearest 5 years
Look forward to seeing details from the marriage cert when you get it
Barbara
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...
I hadn't noticed the Sidney Tom Sutton entry. He was always Sydney, so I dodn't bother checking. I have asked a cousin to get in contact with one of his daughters to check his middle name - he did have one. ...
Ana, It just struck me - duh! - that perhaps 'Tom' was an abbreviation or mistranscription of Tombs! Very often illegitimate children had the surname of the father as their middle name. Well - this may just be wishful thinking!
JAP
PS: Always try variant spellings ;)
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Thanks for the help and advice. I shall definitely let you know if we get Sydney's middle name and tell you what is on the marriage record. I wish the post from the UK was a little faster! And, yes, I should have learnt to check variant spellings by now! :-[
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Information from the marriage certificate
James Tombs m. Ellen Bidder
19 Oct 1856 in Yardley, Worcestershire
James, 21, Bachelor, Occupation Packer, Living in Birmingham, Father Joseph Tombs, Fathers occupation Carpenter
Any chance anyone can find James and Joseph Tombs in 1841?
Ana
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P.S. Unfortunately, it cannot be the obvious one, namely Joseph Tombs, Mason, with wife Ann Tombs and son James Tombs b. 1834 (as well as other children), because that James is still with his parents in 1861, when our James is married to Ellen. :(
I have hunted and hunted through ancestry and am just plain stuck. Do you think there is any point me getting his later marriage certificate? I can't find anything that looks like his death record. I know he was still alive in 1914, because he sent his son Percy a brass bed as a wedding present in that year.
I also suspect that James lied about his age with the '21' on the marriage certificate. I think he was probably born closer to 1837, based on his various census entries. Was 21 the age when yuo no longer needed parents consent?
Ana
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Hi Ana,
Yes, in England persons under 21 needed parental consent at that time.
However, I'm a bit confused - you say that, on James's marriage to Ellen, James's father is James, a carpenter. But then you ask for lookups for a Joseph in 1841? Which is it?
JAP
PS: I don't seem to be able to find a little lodger Percy 'Smith' on the 1881 (on FamilySearch) in Edgbaston ...
And why did you think James might be the James WAGSTAFF with a TOMBS family in 1841?
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:-[ Sorry, the father's name is Joseph.
My only reason for thinking that the James Wagstaff might be James Tombs was that he was the right age and with a Tombs family - not very well reasoned, just hunting.
Similarly for the Percy Smith - it just seems unlikely that a 3 year old would be a boarder with no relatives in the house, unless something odd was happening, and again, he is the right age, and seems reasonably close to Fanny and James.
I have found a Joseph Tombs who was a cabinet maker on the 1851 and 1861 censuses, b. 1821 in Malvern, Worcester, on the 1851 and b. 1814 in Castle Morton, Worcester, on the 1861, both times with a wife Martha. (Married in 1851 I think - at least there is an entry in Free BMD that matches this, although it is in an odd County.) No link to James Tombs that I can find though.
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Hi Ana,
I wasn't arguing against Percy SMITH - it's just that I can't manage to find him in the 1881 census on FamilySearch!
Let's hope someone can look with fresh eyes for James's father Joseph TOMBS in 1841, 1851 and later censuses (sorry - I don't have access to these).
And for James in 1841 and 1851 (though he does seem likely to be the 14yo tap boy b Hanley in the 1851).
Good luck,
JAP
PS: (Added later) This is probably just a red herring but on FreeBMD there's a Joseph Wagstaff TOMBS marrying in Worcester in 1839 ...
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I have found a James Lutwich born to a Harriett Lutwich in 1837 in Castlemorton, who is on the 1841 census with hs mother, but then vanishes - no further census or death records. Any hints as to how I could sort out whether this is an illegitimate son of Joseph Tombs? (...I can't see how this could be shown to be the case, but just in case you know something that I don't...)
Thanks for being there at the other end of the Post button!
Ana
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Sigh, no go - I found his death as Lutwyche... Hope I didn't waste your time.
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You mentioned a Joseph TOMBS in Castlemorton in the 1851 and 1861.
This perhaps the same chap as the following in the 1881 in Castlemorton:
Joseph TOMBS, 60, Ag Lab, b Castlemorton
Eliza TOMBS, 30, Wife, Glover, b Hereford
Emma TOMBS, 7, Daur, b Castlemorton
Charles TOMBS, 4, Son, b Castlemorton
Their marriage perhaps the one of a Joseph TOMBS (also indexed as THOMBS) in 1870 in Upton on Severn, an Eliza COOPER on the same page.
Not that this helps.
JAP
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There are only two Tombs families in the Parish of Hanley Castle in 1841:
HO107/1 fol.47 p.21 Coronation Lodge, Hanley Castle
Henry Tombs 30, Shoemaker
Ann " 30
Charles " 8
Henry " 5
Mary " 3
George " 4 months
Thomas Allen 40 Horsekeeper
Thomas Tombs 15 J.Shoemaker
all born in county
Looking for the family of the 4 month old George Tombs. He married Marion Lee in 1859. Their granddaughter Edith Marion Tombs (b. 1894) came to Canada as a home child.
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... Looking for the family of the 4 month old George Tombs. He married Marion Lee in 1859. Their granddaughter Edith Marion Tombs (b. 1894) came to Canada as a home child. ...
Welcome to RootsChat, bowallgen.
What do you already know and what are you trying to find out?
Is this George & Marion in 1881 (from FamilySearch at http://www.familysearch.org ):
9 Harriet St, London
TOMBS
George 40, Inspector Railway, b Malvern Worcestershire
Marion 43, Wife, b Minchinhampton, Gloucestershire, Dressmake
Samuel 20, Gardener
George 17, Labour
Charles 15, Shop Boy
Alfred 12, Scholar
William 10, Scholar
Charlotte 8, Scholar
All b Fulham, London
JAP
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This is the same person as outlined below George Tombs (1841-1887) and Marion Lee (1834 - 1883). Missing from the 1881 Census record below is Elizabeth Marion Tombs their daughter born Abt. 1867. I think that she is working as a servant for the Edis family of 1 Clifton Villas Maxwell Rd. (www.familysearch.org) - (no other evidence to support this). She had a child Edith Marion Tombs in 1894 at the Fulham Union Workhouse and Infirmary with no father listed. The father was a Benjamin West as can be found from Edith Marion Tombs registration to the Barnardo Home for Children admission record from 4 September 1901. I have worked out most of the details from this record concerning her admission (quite a sad story). My interest is that Edith Marion Tombs is my wife's grandmother. Would be pleased to provide further details. Elizabeth Marion Tombs either married or lived with an Arthur Day (1856 - 1901) and had a child Rosie early in 1901.
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re Tombs & Edis
Draft Tayles Tree at www.tayles.com.au currently has 235 Edis entries, and 42 for Tombes
Comments, additions and corrections are welcome.
Cheers
inept