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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Yorkshire (East Riding & York) => England => Yorkshire (East Riding & York) Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Lace34 on Monday 09 April 07 10:08 BST (UK)
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All was going very well researching my Grandfathers side of the family tree until l stumbled across his birth certificate and other papers...
Herbert Scott Young dob: 01/01/1923 was the son of Robert William Young and Ethel Gertrude Harris. Herbert had a brother, also named Robert William and a sister Elizabeth (Bessie).
Bessie died in her teens from T.B.
Robert William Jnr was killed during the second world war.
**Edit**
l think most of the above is hearsay after some researching lve done today and lve also managed to shock myself.
lve found that Ethel Gertrude Harris, married 3 times. Never once was she married to Robert William Young (as far as l have seen so far) Plus l can not find any records linking my grandfather to any of the guys she married. lf anyone would like to check to assure me that lm not going insane please do so.
What l found was the following:
Ethel G Harris m Scott Kurr Young 1916 HRO/63/115
Ethel G Young m Robert W Usher 1921 HRO/70/137
Ethel G Usher m Albert E Myres 1929 JB/4/340
As l said l can not find any reference to my poor grandad who is convinced his father is RW Young!
l have a copy of my grandads birth cert which Ethel got in 1928 when she registered the birth of Bessie, on the cert the father is said to be deceased but on the other side it says that Robert W Young was his father, l can not find any record of Roberts death.
lm very confused now as l too believed that Ethel and Robert were married.
Any Help/ advice would be great
Rach.
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Who is named as Herbert's father on the "right" side of the certificate?
Rambler
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Hello,
lt says that Robert William Young is the father. But as far as l am aware Robert died in 1918, which confuses us more.
lm currently searching info on Roberts death now. The only other RW Young was my grandfathers brother who l am also researching as l type.
Thanks
Rachel.
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It is confusing, isn't it? ??? But fascinating!
Plenty of questions, if that's okay!!
1. Are you absolutely sure that the Ethel G of the 3 marriages is the same person?
2. Have you found deaths for husbands 1 & 2?
It's obviously significant that your Herbert Scott Young has been given the middle name 'Scott' - making you think that his father was Scott Kurr Young. However, it seems that, by the time of Herberts's birth in 1923, Ethel was married to Robert Usher! (perhaps a 'homage' to her deceased first husband - possibly also a friend of husband no. 2?)
3. Was Scott Kurr Young any relation to Robert William Young? Do you have Robert W's birth certificate? Scutt Kurr is a rather unusual name for GB. It sounds American to me - were the US in the war by then?
4. Does Herbert's birth certificate give his mother's name as Ethel G. Young (nee Harris) or just Ethel G. Harris?
5. Don't you think it's interesting that Ethel G's 3rd husband was called Robert W Usher? Is there any chance that your Robert William and this Robert W Usher could be one and the same (i.e the person she was married to when she gave birth to Herbert)? Why would he change his name? Could the registrar have made a mistake and written the wrong name on the marriage certificate? (it happens!)
Incidentally, where did all this take place?
I'll shut up now...
Jill
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Hi,
Ive pretty much been asking myself the same questions (repeatedly over and over hoping l had gotten something wrong but lve checked and rechecked smack my head against the desk, wall and so forth...)
l will try fill you in on what l know for certain, hopefully some if not all questions will be answered.
Herbert Scott Young is my grandfather, born 01/01/1923. Its only recently that he has really opened up to me about his childhood as lm now his carer due to ill health. He told me:
His mum Ethel Gertrude Harris was married to his (supposed) dad Robert William Young. He isnt sure when they married and he never saw his dad as he died 'at sea' before Herbert was born. Ethel then went on (as far as he knows and is most certain) to marry Roberts Brother Scott Young. After Scott died Ethel married a mean man named Albert Myres. Herbert Had a brother also called Robert William and a sister Elizabeth (Bessie) All with the surname Young as far as we know but we have found no proof as of yet that the latter actually were 'Young'.
Now onto your questions, l will try my hardest to make this understandable (lol)
l am pretty sure Ethel G is the same person as all previous surnames fall into place with specific time lines.
Yes l have found deaths for Scott and for Albert to fit with dates given by documents at my grandads but there are no records stating the date of death for RW Young snr, The only record l found online at yorkshire bmd was a Robert William Young who dies in 1918 way before my grandad was born.
Your right having 'Scott as a middle name does ring alarms dosent it, great minds think alike!
Scott Young was (according to my grandad) Robert W's brother. again we have no real evidence to support this.
Kurr does sound a bit strange to be GB. lm not sure if the Us were in the war at the time but l will check that out, good point!
Herbert's birth cert says 'Mother- Ethel Gertrude Young (15) Late Young-Formerly Harris'
Yes l really do believe that RW Young and RW Usher are one in the same. lts far too much of a coincidence. Do you think there could have been a mistake? Could Ethel have registered Herbert in the absence of his father and just called him Young so as to cover up whatever it was she was trying to hide? My grandad said he had never seen his dad, he has never seen his original birth certificate! We have never found the original just a copy that his mum got made in 1929. lm almost scared to see whats on the original. (But at the same time so determined to find out whats gone on!!)
All this took place in Kingston upon Hull. We all live/lived East Hull, Sutton.
lm off to check out the war thing before my head starts hurting!
Hope this dosent confuse matters more (my family are being difficult enough it would seem!!)
Rachel
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I think it might possibly be as simple as a mistake on the marriage certificate of Ethel and Robert W. If this is the correct marriage to Robert W Young, it would make sense a) of your grandfather not remembering him, and b) of Robert W. agreeing to give his son the name Scott in remembrance of his brother.
Or! it could be as complicated as it sounds! Are you saying that you haven't found a birth for either Robert William Young or Scott Kurr Young (sorry if it's there somewhere, I can't see it ::))? I may be completely barking up the wrong tree (or just barking!) but was Scott a name used much in England in the early 1900s? Were these brothers Americans/Canadians who came over to fight in the war and is that why you can't find their births?
From what your grandfather has told you about his father dying at sea,it sounds as if he was probably in the navy ( a navy! GB?/US?/Canadian?). And Hull is a port! I'm not up on these things but, aren't there separate death records for people who died in the forces(possibly on Find My Past)? Might be worth checking out?
Any luck with the witnesses to the various marriages?
Sorry I keep asking questions instead of answering any! Really helpful!
Jill
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Just found a death for Robert W Young in Dec quarter of 1925 in Hull - ref.9d 316. (on Ancestry)
Could this be him?
Jill
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Sorry - forgot to add - this Robert W was only aged 35 at death, so looking very promising!
Jill
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It sure does!
As l said it does state on Herberts Birth cert that RW was dead at the time the copy was made so it fits in with the timeline.
And his death falls 2 years after Herberts actual birth, l know lve already ordered Herberts Birth cert, but lm wondering if its worth getting hold of the Scott/Ethel marraige cert as well. Getting a copy of the RW you just found death cert could be a possibility too. (At least it would be something to show my grandad that really did have his dads (?) name to it. All depending of course on what info is given.
l found the marraige details on Ancestry too as well as yorkshire bmd, can not seem to find Ethels marraige to RW Usher now mind you, but it is getting late.
l will start looking into everything again in the morning after lve dug around some more at grandads. lm sure there must be something somewhere that connects.
l will let you know if l find anything, if not then its back to the researching nationalities of those 2 brothers!
Rachel
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Just thought I'd muddy the waters before I go to bed!
I've just found a death for a Scott Kerr Young in Hull... but it's in Sept quarter of 1889 age 29!!
Then I found a Robert William Young birth in Dec q 1890 (right year if he was 35 in 1925) but it's in Gateshead!
Curiouser and curiouser!!
Jill
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Forget my last posting - just found these births in Hull:
Scott Kurr Young Dec Q 1894 9d 273
Robert William Young Mar Q 1891 9d (247) (I think this is the right ref but it's a bit blurred).
So, okay, they weren't Canadian/American!! :-[
That really is it for tonight!
Jill
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Hello Ladies,
There is a reference to a Scott Young, who died in the Great War, who was born in Hull, on Findmypast....
Unfortunately, although I have unlimited access to the BMDs at the moment, it does not include the War references !!
This could be the young man, born 1894, at Hull.
Also, "Scott Young" seems to have been like a hyphenated name if you look at Ancestry.com....just a thought
Kind regards
JeannieR
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Good Morning!!
l will take a closer look into the additional info later today after lve been to take care of my grandad. After speaking with my mum, lve found out there is another large tin of documents at my grandparents which l havent had chance (or the courage) to look at yet.
Mum's had a close look and says there are quite a few certs in there but she never took much notice as she was just sorting through, she did however come across a photograph, on the back it said 'Scott Young' and some letters and numbers, maybe a rank? but she isnt sure.
Mum has full access to everything where as lm just playing the grandaughter role so wont go noseying. Mum and l are both at grandads in the morning so she is going to get the tin out so l can have a look. Needless to say lm going to go stocked with pen/paper and camera!
Maybe there will be something there to help us along. As this really is getting more and more interesting/confusing...only making me more eager to hunt more.
One option l would like to carry out later is to try find out as much as l can on Ethel as l havent even gotten round to searching out her parents yet. And lm going to need her info to compare to any entries on marriage certs and so on.
lve a feeling it isnt going to be an easy task either lol.
Rachel.
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Hi
In the 1901 census there is a Scott Young (7) living with parents Robert & Jane E Young & siblings John T (16) Robert William (10) Maria (2)
Kingston upon Hull 10 George Place RG13/4499 F 44 P 31
Claire :)
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That looks very promising!
l know that Robert was the elder of the brothers.
Thanks.
Will do more later today.
Rach.
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Hi
Scott K Young married Ethel G Harris in Mar qtr 1916 on Military Geneaology site there is this death
Death
East Yorkshire Reg 1/4 Battalion
Scott Young
Born Hull
Rank Private No 1213
Died 17/06/1916 In Action
Theatre of War France & Flanders
Claire :)
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I do envy you, Rach. Having a large tin of family documents to investigate. How exciting!
Good luck - and please let us know how you get on - or if you need any more help(or hindrance?)
Jill
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Hi again all!
lm in the process of adding all the bits of info lve been given by your good selfs!
lve also opened another thread regarding Ethel as lve had a few messages asking me various things so hopefully that thread will help others too.
Jillruss, thankyou, its really great to know someone else is as eager as l am to try figure some of this out. And l am not sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing, when this tin gets opened my grandad can not wait to show me some of the info and pictures he has of his .............................Canadian relatives!!!!!!!!
So you were on the right track after all.
ln regard to the war info on Scott, lve found an entry on CWGC and all info given is spot on besides Scotts wife being shown as A.E Young and not E.G Young. lm thinking typo on their part, would you agree? everything else is exactly as you stated. Shame he is in Belgium mind, would have loved to have taken real pics for my grandad.
l promise l shall be back sometime tomorrow evening with l hope a whole new set of facts on Ethel & Co.
Thanks again for everything.
Rachel.
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Evening all!
Wow, what a day lve had.
Well here goes with the update on info!
Forgive my repeating myself.
First the new stuff which l found thanks to the 'tin'
My grandad had an Aunt Ivy and Uncle Albert whom lived in Canada, Ortanio. They had built their own house (pic looked more like a mansion) over there. No record as to when they went there or why. Albert was Ethels brother so these would be Albert and Ivy Harris.
Ethels mothers maiden name was England!
Ethel and Albert Myres lived at 259 Wingfield Road Hull prior to her death in 1977.
Ethel had 2 sisters called Daisy and Beattie/Beatty.
l now have a pic of who my grandfather believes to be Robert William Young (whom he insists is his father), ln the picture his 'father' is wearing a full naval uniform and around his hat l can make out HMS Vict... (could be victory/victorious/victoria)
Ethel and Robert married approx 1919, (according to my findings this would have made Ethel 23 as she was born in 1896)
Robert and Ethel had 3 children. My grandad Herbert 01/01/1923, his older brother Robert William Young born approx 1921 (he died 31/01/1942 aged 21 lve seen the cert and his war medals now so l know the death date to be real :)). Finally Bessie (NOT Elizabeth as originally mentioned) she was born approx 1925 and died when she was around 17 from T.B. Grandad remembers Ethel being married to Albert Myers when Bessie died.
Robert snr died at sea so my grandad says ???
Ethel married Scott K young born 1894 who died in 1916 aged 22. lve seen Scotts medals too now and lots of postcards he sent to Robert his 'dearest beloved brother' as they wrote back and forth whilst posted in various areas not mentioned.
l also have a picture of my grandad, his brother Robert and his step brother Albert Myers Junior.
There is a very strong resemblance between Robert jnr and Robert snr, so much so that both could be the same person. Theres writing on the back of the picture which l can not make out so knowing my luck it will be something very significant >:(
No prizes for seeing that most timelines just dont fit lm afraid.
l figure lm more or less back to square one.
lve spent a fortune looking at images for any hope of finding Ethel really married to Robert W Snr but it just aint happening.
l will try look a little more and make head or tail of it all in the morning as at the moment lm just too tired.
Sorry in advance for an update to add to the confusion.
Rachel.
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Hi Rachel,
What a lot of stuff to try to make sense of!
Can you try to scan the back of your grandad's picture and post it on Rootschat - asking for people to give their opinions as to what it says usually comes up trumps.
It looks like I was on the wrong branch of the family with my supposed Canadian connection!!
I don't see why the timeline doesn't fit? Isn't it just this Robert W Usher marriage in 1921 that doesn't fit? When you say in your last posting that Ethel and Robert married approx 1919 - where do you get this from? Does it rule out the possibility that Robert W Usher was really Robert W Young?
perhaps I'm just getting confused!
Jill
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Hi,
Yes it is the Robert Usher marriage that does not fit. The 1919 info regarding Robert W and Ethel was pure hearsay from my grandad.
l Spoke to my uncle (Also a Robert W Young ::)) yesterday who said that he remembers when he was younger finding a whole bunch of papers in an old oxo tin, within this tin was my grandads original birth cert...no fathers name was given on the certificate which to him meant Herbert was indeed illegitimate. My Uncle also says the tiny postcards sent between Scott and Robert snr confused him as there were never any postcards found from R.W to scott, just the other way round. Maybe Scott and R.W whoever he was were really good friends which is why Scott addressed him dear beloved brother, or as my uncle said maybe they were half brothers. Either way it is slightly confusing.
There was lots of evidence regarding Scott but none of Robert besides this one picture and l can not say for sure that it is really R.W.
lve also now been told that there was a Jack Young who was also brother to Scott and the mysterious R.W.
Jillruss, good idea regarding the pic, l also wonder if someone somewhere might know the rough time period of the uniform in the pic as lve searched out tons of info on possible ships but havent yet matched the uniforn with any of the crew members (long shot l know).
l have already uploaded the images to my own webspace as they scanned rather big which may make some of the writing a little easier to make out. Do you think the admins would mind me linking 'offsite' provided a gave l description to where the links were leading?
It is still confusing so your not alone on being bewildered!
Rach.
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Hello again!
Sorry to be such a pain l wasnt sure where to put the link to the pics so lve put it under photo restoration if anyone wanted to take a look.
Another update,
One thing my grandad never mentioned until yesterday, He is one of twins. His brother was 'sent away' and when my grandad tried to trace him (grandad said he was in his late 20's when he tried to find his brother) his mum Ethel told him it was none of his business!
lm still doing the 'ship' hunt and await replies from some messages lve sent.
l am also going to try trace the 'twin'.
Rach.