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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: tigces on Sunday 01 April 07 18:56 BST (UK)
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1) What is the earliest date, you've found that someone (women especially) that can sign their names?
2) What is the latest date, you've found that people sign with an X?
3) How far back did you go before you found your first Smith - if you are a Smith how far on the otherside of the tree?
4) How far back did you go before you found your first Jones?
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Hi Tigces,
Mine are all pretty standard ancestors although I thankfully (research wise) haven't yet found a Smith or a Jones ;)
I used to work in a bank and I came across customers who still signed with an X :-\ :'(
I think this thread would do well on the common board so if you ask the moderator, at the top of the page. to move it for you I'm sure you will get a lot more interesting replies than mine :)
Moderator Comment: Moved :)
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Ok - this is from memory:
1. 1600s My only Aristo line - though I presume that they could sign before this. Still looking for docs and wills.
2. 1900 My grandfather on his marriage cert. Although he and his parents could write. I don't understand the cross ???
3. 3xGreats' daughter had a middle name Smith - haven't found a direct link though.
4. Great Grandmother*, Ellen Jones, and then masses of them :(
Gadget
Oops - and another Great Grandmother, Martha Jones - sorry Grt Gran :-[
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Hi Tigces,
Gosh what interesting questions you ask ! I think there is going to be some interesting replies (perhaps you should have posted each question on its own ?)
Although I do not have Smith I do have a Cross living as Lodger in the 1881 census I have not made that much progress due to the popularity of the name.
Would love to know about your findings..
Sarah :)
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Question 3
My mother-in-law was a Smith
Question 4
My Gran was a Jones (my dads mum)
Needless to say I have not really started to look at them lines yet :o Oh the headache just thinking about it.
Ken
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Not sure about Question 1 or 2 at the moment, I shall have to go and have a look because that's quite an interesting thought.
As to Smith's the further back so far is 1867 and the birth of Helena Lorraine Lovekin Stanford Smith, lots of other threads on here about her, haven't managed to go back any further as I'm not too sure who her father was - the one on her birth certificate, the one on her marriage certificate or the one on the census returns. ::) ::) ::)
No Jones at all.
Kerry
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1. I'm not sure about
2. My Great Grandmother couldn't read or write (She was born in 1900)
3. Smiths - haven't found any [yet]
4. Jones - 1823. Not bad in my welsh family :)
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1) Luke Lunt signed his name in 1778
Hannah Lunt signed her name in 1862
I think Ellen Richardson signed her name in 1830 - there's a possible x lower down the page but beneath where her name is, but no words "her mark" as there is against one of the witness names.
2) Seems to be about 1894.
3) Joseph Lunt married a Martha Smith in 1842 but not in my direct line.
4) - guess what - I don't have any at all!!!
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1) What is the earliest date, you've found that someone (women especially) that can sign their names?
2) What is the latest date, you've found that people sign with an X?
3) How far back did you go before you found your first Smith - if you are a Smith how far on the otherside of the tree?
4) How far back did you go before you found your first Jones?
1. For ancestors only, I can only go back to a few people born in the 1830s who both married in 1859 - so not very far! But I only have GRO certificates to go on. Although my GGGG Grandfather's second wife was born in 1792 and signed their marriage in 1837 (It also happened to be the first marriage at that church after the act)
2. 1890 marriage of my GG Grandmother, who was born in 1869
3. Back to my maternal grandmother and also GG Grandmother on my other side (and GGG Grandmother on another branch!)
4. None found yet
Andrew
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Very interesting.
1. My 9x great-grandfather was Shakespeare's lawyer, so he could write. He is the farthest back I have gotten with definite proof of that, although I have another line back a bit farther in Alsace and I think they could also.
2. I have a deed with my gg grandparents' signatures both being X. I think my gg grandfather was too sick at the time to sign his own name, but was a little suprised to see my gg grandmother, although she had stayed home to raise half siblings and then her own kids, so shouldn't have been so suprised.
3 and 4, none, although I haven't confirmed rumors of Welsh blood yet. If I could just take my Davis line back farther. ??? ???
Kath
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Kath- My brother-in-law is Shakespeare mad. I'll ask him if he wants your autograph ;D
I have no Smiths or Jones'.
I don't have much in the way of certificates but on my G-Grandad's birth cetificate 1884 his Mum marks with an X, but when he grows up he can read and write as I have his army records and he's filled a page out, so it's that generation for me I think.
On the other side of my tree, my GGGG Grandfather, born 1802 was a lawyer, so I guess he could too.
Erin :)
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Thanks for all the answers so far, as for my own line - from memory
Eliza Howard born 1848 signed with x (It has been pointed out to me that the wedding certificate, all the writing is the same so whether George should have signed with x is debatable)
No men yet have signed with an x
Sarah Pitt born 1818 - I will have to examine the writing on the wedding certificate to see if it is the same.
Ruth Smith DOB 1848 dad's side
Alice Jones DOB 1847 mum's side
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Thanks for all the answers so far, as for my own line - from memory
Eliza Howard born 1848 signed with x (It has been pointed out to me that the wedding certificate, all the writing is the same so whether George should have signed with x is debatable)
If you got the certificate fro the GRO, they all have the same handwriting as each certificate is a written copy of the original. I didn't need a marriage certificate for my GGG Grandparents as I knew the wife's parents, so I got the birth of my GGG Grandfather instead. Later in the year, I decided to look through the marriage records on microfiches at the library where they were held. These were copies of the originals so they had all the original handwriting. What's more: It only cost me 10p to print it off and now I have my GGG Grandparents' handwritings - both of them could write :)
Andrew
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Kath- My brother-in-law is Shakespeare mad. I'll ask him if he wants your autograph ;D
Erin :)
That is my claim to fame. Actually, I would call it my claim to almost fame. ;D I'll sign anything but a check. ;D ;D ;D
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All the male Childs havedefinately been literate since Richard Child signed his will in Minchinhampton, Gloucestershire in 1678 - women are more difficult to say as they tend not to sign documents so often as men, so you don't find them so much before the marriage registers of 1754+
I'm sure the level of literacy was much higher in the C18th than it was in the C19th.
regards
Carole
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Not sure about the first two.
My mother's maiden name was Smith. The male line, going backwards, is John, Bill, Fred, and Charlie. They were a NIGHTMARE to trace!!
No Jones' at all (yet)!
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Not sure about the first two.
My mother's maiden name was Smith. The male line, going backwards, is John, Bill, Fred, and Charlie. They were a NIGHTMARE to trace!!
No Jones' at all (yet)!
My Smith male line goes George, John, John, John!
Andrew
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Question 3
My mother-in-law was a Smith
Question 4
My Gran was a Jones (my dads mum)
Needless to say I have not really started to look at them lines yet :o Oh the headache just thinking about it.
Ken
I thought Phillips was bad enough! :)
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1) My Gx11 Grandfather was a Chaplain in Ordinary to Charles II and had some sermons published in the mid 1600s, I've also got copies of documents in his actual handwriting. I believe from information I have from wills that his daughters could write, that would have been the late 1600s/early 1700s. Although I can't say that that is true 100%.
I can also trace that line back to Jersey in the 1500s where his G Grandfather (my 14xG Grandfather!) was a rector, so I would imagine that he could write.
2) My GG Grandmother died in 1886 and one of her daughters made her mark to act as informant to the death.
3) No Smiths to be found as yet.
4)My earliest Jones so far is the marriage of my GG Grandfather John Jones to Lucy Lewis in 1851. Unfortunately his father was a John Jones as well :(
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1. 1870s for the X
No smiths or Jones found yet:)
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1) What is the earliest date, you've found that someone (women especially) that can sign their names?
2) What is the latest date, you've found that people sign with an X?
3) How far back did you go before you found your first Smith - if you are a Smith how far on the otherside of the tree?
4) How far back did you go before you found your first Jones?
1) 1853
2) 1879
3) No Smiths!! (not yet anyway!!)
4) Not very far at all......I was born a JONES ;D
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1) Don't know
2) Don't know
3) A long way back - two of my 4x g-grandmothers were born SMITH
4) No JONES ancestors, but several distant cousins - the closest are 2nd cousins once removed
Anna
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hmm interesting
well most of my family lines were quite poor but i do have a few lines that were more well to do and better educated it semms than others
1) In 1843 my ggg grandparents Thomas Tissington and Eleanor Rachel Ridgett both signed their marriage certifiacte along with two other witnesses (one of whom was her dad William Ridgett who was born in 1793!) and also another relative Emma Ridgett. I think thats pretty good going for my family!
2) 1899 - my great grandma Elizabeth Tissington (the above's granddaughter?? Seems strange that the grandparents could write - very well too but she couldnt at the turn of the century!
3) Haven't found any yet -at least none anywhere near my direct line - i have 2 smiths but they are extremely distant i can hardly call them my tree! So far i have got back to 1740s...all my surnames are really quite rare apart from my mums maiden name was Williams - its been surprisingly easy though!
4) Dont have any Jones either! Apart from again very very distant ones who are distant cousins and have descended down a totally different line - then theres only 2.
Alison
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Not a Smith or a Jones amongst them yet (unless you count the surname JOHNS as a Jones) - mind you I still have my share of brickwalls and untraceables. In fact sometimes the less common names are worse because there are so many different ways they could be spelt and/or transcribed.
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1. Earliest marriage with one signature (wife's) 1773; earliest with both 1788
2. Latest marriage with both marks 1860; latest with one mark & one signature 1869. I have an 1880 death certificate where the informant has made his mark.
3 & 4 None found so far - though quite a few other common surnames recur.
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3) I have gone back to the early 1800's with no Smiths. Another line back to 1665, with no Smith's. And another line to the mid 1700's with no Smith's.
4) As with Smith above.
Not sure if its luck, or my ancestors being wise ;)
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My GGGGGG Grandfather could write at the time of his first (of four!) marriages, in 1775. He was born around 1750.
Andrew
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Not a Smith or a Jones amongst them yet (unless you count the surname JOHNS as a Jones) - mind you I still have my share of brickwalls and untraceables. In fact sometimes the less common names are worse because there are so many different ways they could be spelt and/or transcribed.
I agree. Especially the strangely spelt/sounded ones.
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3. My maternal grandfather's sister married John Smith 1907. Fortunately I had found the grandaughter of his other sister and she helped by telling me about the family, including a photograph!
4. My maternal grandmother's mother was Matilda Jones. I know very little about her, other than her father's name, on her marriage cert. and her place of birth, from censuses - Enniskillen!
Kooky
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1) 1762 - man
2) 1890's - woman
3) I am unlucky enough to have found Smiths on 2 sides of my family. Both families in London. Very difficult. Smith family 1. earliest definite 1797. Smith family 2. earliest definite 1776. Lived not too far from each other but not related, so far. Perhaps we all eventually go back to Smiths.
3) No Jones at all (yet) I don't think I could cope with those as well>
Daisy
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I found a Smith in my ancestry. I'm afraid it put me off trying to trace any further back for that particular person. However I did find her first husband and children!
Earliest ancestor Ive found was born in 1788. I'm a bit stuck on how to get any further!
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1. The earliest for me is a marriage cert. from the GRO, so I haven't seen the original paperwork.
Dated 1840 both bride and groom and two witnesses all signed.
2. I have a 1909 mariage cert. where one of the witnesses (Groom's Mum) signs with an X.
3. GGG grandmother Eliza Smith born in 1840, I'm not sure if you count her daughter, my GG grandmother also Eliza born before the marriage, I still haven't found her birth cert. so I don't know if she is a Smith or not.
4. may have a Jones at 4x great grandmother but haven't confirmed it yet.
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Interesting questions. I've just sat and gone through my overstuffed lever-arch folder full of certificates and documents for my ancestors and was surprised to discover very few x's marked on certificates since 1837, just a couple early on in the 1840s by ancestors who were in rural areas. I'm wondering if this is because most of my family were in and around London and had more access to education - enough, at least, to sign their names.
I was pleased to note that both my 3xgreat-grandparents (who were both 'deaf and dumb from birth' according to census returns) signed their names on their marriage certificate in 1842. I know that my 3xg-grandmother attended a deaf school (I have the school record) and suspect that's where she met my 3xg-grandfather (the school were unable to find a record for him, but the records are incomplete).
The earliest signature I have is on a copy of a will signed by my 5xg-grandfather who was born c.1719 and died in 1807.
My earliest Jones is my grandmother, and I've been lucky to be able to trace her line back as far as my 3xg-grandfather born c.1801, with my earliest certificate being his marriage in 1841. I remember when I phoned the GRO to order that particular certificate, the woman I spoke to on the phone was very impressed that I had managed to get that far on a Jones line, she actually said "well done"! And, my g-grandfather Jones, his father and his father were all called Thomas just to make things nice and simple for me :D
I haven't yet found any Smiths in my tree.