RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Gragareth on Sunday 01 April 07 08:31 BST (UK)
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Reading queries in RootsChat, and personal contact with my newly found relatives, it appears that many, probably new to genealogy, are researching only by censuses. Finding who we seek in a census should be backed-up by getting their birth, marriage, death certificates. Using only census details can lead to mistakes.
Gragareth.
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This is true, but in both cases we're depending on the information given being correct, with no mistakes or outright lies. In one census I know of someone who put his religion down as a "Jedi Knight" - I can imagine future genealogists eagerly searching for information on these Jedi Knights only to find it was a huge joke.
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I have a marriage certificate for my husbands grandfather that gives his father as William...and same occupation as the groom.
3 months of searching later...along comes grandfathers birth cert...father THOMAS!! So even certificates cannot be relied on in all cases.
We have now an established tree back to 1755 for hubbies family is he smug or what!
Tazzie
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That's right - my great great grandfather put his father down on his marriage in 1885 as Henry William Giesen, occupation Accountant. In fact he was born with a completely different surname, and his birth certificate lists no father. I'm grateful to his mother at least that she didn't make up a fictional father and occupation to save face in front of the registrar. I'd have been searching fruitlessly for years for a non-existent person!
I spotted on the 1901 census too, what I'm certain was a deliberate lie by a relative who was living with her 7 year old son. Previous censuses show her with her maiden name living with her widowed mother and family, and in the 1901 census she still has her maiden surname, but has a son, and describes herself as a widow.
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And I won't even get started on my Helena Lovekin Stanford Smith's family. All I will say is that the girls in the family all have different fathers on their marriage certificates from those on their birth certificates and all seem to be totally ficitional characters!!!
So you can't always believe the BMD certificates, they have to be treated with as much caution as the census returns.
Kerry
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There was a tv programme on a few years ago called Antiques Ghosthunt or something like that, where genealogists/family history nuts like us were able to use psychic mediums to get in touch with deceased relatives and grill them! Imagine what you'd say to your Helena! I want a word with my other great great grandfather Edward Lister, for lying about his age at his marriage in about 1864, and thus leading me up the garden path when searching for his birth.
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My neighbour always puts 'Jedi Knight' down on the Census and Council Tax Returns - being a member of a religious sect gets him a discount ::)
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If I'd taken the information on marriage certificates as correct I would have been on all sorts of wild goose chases for immaginary fathers, grandfathers listed as fathers and dates of birth changed to make a few ancestors appear younger than they really were! To be honest in my case it's been the census records that have got me back on track on more than one occaision.
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Some of mine are like Kerry's :P :P Every document a lie ::) ;D
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My neighbour always puts 'Jedi Knight' down on the Census and Council Tax Returns - being a member of a religious sect gets him a discount ::)
I suppose the Church of England doesn't count as a sect. :( Too respectable, I s'pose!
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I think one has to be a 'representative' of the sect ..... :)
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I guess it's like every bit of evidence found in building a family history. It has to be taken with a pinch of salt until proved correct!
Kerry 8)
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As you all are saying, can't trust entirely the written word. I have had a Register Office unable to decide what a surname is in their records. Then re-issueing a certificate, with another interpretation of it. Still wrong. I proved so in another way. I still believe much research being done solely upon censuses.
Gragareth.
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My neighbour always puts 'Jedi Knight' down on the Census and Council Tax Returns - being a member of a religious sect gets him a discount ::)
I suppose the Church of England doesn't count as a sect. :( Too respectable, I s'pose!
I can't believe this ... surely not ?
I think one has to be a 'representative' of the sect ..... :)
Can I, as a minister in the Church in Wales, really be allowed to pay less council tax than others ? Sky high as my council tax is, it doesn't seem very fair to try that one on !
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Can I, as a minister in the Church in Wales, really be allowed to pay less council tax than others ? Sky high as my council tax is, it doesn't seem very fair to try that one on !
Why not Lydart, if everyone else is doing it and it works .. .. go for it!!
Barbara
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No, no can do ! I have one of those awful things which is the bane of my life, called a conscience.
(By the way, don't people in Brisbane ever sleep ?)
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Lydart, did you play any little jokes on your congregation this morning? Our priest did: he told us that because the New Moon had come earlier than expected, it wasn't really Palm Sunday. It was the fifth Sunday in Lent - again - and next year there would be two Palm Sundays to make up for it. Someone piped up that it was an April Fool, but I believed him. I thought the Church of England was nutty enough for anything!
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I did all my early gathering of my family history before the days oh the Internet using GRO certificates. Although not cheap it was much easier than rolling through unindexed flms looking for ancestors before the addresses had been determined from the certificates. I learnt fairly early on that when I found mistakes it was often wise to try to explain why they occurred.
One of my ancestors had father John on her marriage certificate but father Charles on her birth certificate. On the census she was living with father John.
Eventually I discovered that her mother had been married to Charles who died not long after my ancestors birth. She then married his brother John which in those days was against the law.
What appeared to be mistake actually told the story of my ancestors birth and upbringing.
So as I say don't just reject what appear to be a mistake.
David
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Actually, one of the earlier posters had a great idea which would make this so much easier.
Now, where can I find a good medium or shall I try an upturned wine glass on the table?
Is anybody there????????
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I suppose if we ordered certificates for every marriage etc.....
then the good old GRO would be feeling very chuffed ;D ;D
research needs to be a good mix of everything........... ;) ;)
off to the library tomorrow to check out their Ancestry
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Something I have been concerned with too, buying certificates. I always buy births and marriages and deaths for my ancestors.
but do you buy certificates for your ancestors brothers and sisters, births and marriages...
and do you buy death certificates, ancestors and siblings?
I have a new index, in it I can find the birth dates of my ancestors brothers and sisters, but they are not absolute, I have found the GRO index that I believe to be the correct one, the index then confirms that b ygiving me the information of when the book was compiled, so I have John xxx, GRO March 1876, M.T. 11a 478, (fictional) the Index, - John xx, Mothers surname - xxx, District M.T.U, Book from 11 Dec 1875 - 10 Apr 1876, but there may be more than one with the same Mothers surname! especially in Wales with Thomas and Jenkins etc
would you still buy the cert?
newbie ;D
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I try to buy certificates for the siblings where I can find them....
I have discovered through this when the family moved to different houses (within the same town).....a daughter on the 1901 census listed as Rachel (for some reason)...was actually registered as Margaret.....
Another birth certificate gave me the father's army details.....
AND.....one baby was registered almost a year after her birth...so it is wrong to assume that if the child is shown as born in the June quarter, for example, that they were born within the previous three months!
Death certificates have given me unexpected details too.....my great great grandmother shown on every census as 'wife'...was shown on her death certificate as 'a registered midwife'...leading to a whole new area of research.
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Thanks Kathy, I have bought some of the siblings, especially where I also found a death for the child, (I bought both) a) to confirm they were from the same family and b) to see why the death occurred, as you say you can gather a lot more evidence on where they lived and occupations from the certificate,
I have just started to buy birth certificates for siblings (who didn't die young) but I'll have to start saving hard because there are so many! then there are their marriages, I see a path to ruin...
newbie
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....but it's worth it !!!
Also...addicitive !
I have started exploring the history of our house...and now have to have certificates for people who lived/died here etc......
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I have the birth and marriage certificates for all my ancestors but only the death certificates where I specifically needed them. I also have a few siblings' certificates where I needed them to help with the chase.
However I also have a large number of certificates which I have "swapped" with cousins. It really depends on whether additional certificates are likely to add significantly to your knowledge of the family. Where a family didn't move around and were a stable family a birth certificate will give you little beyond a more precise date and is hardly worth it. In other cases there will be a wealth of information. It is a matter of judgement.
David
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I have a spreadsheet in Excel where I put in the details of all the certificates I would like, for future reference to order.
The other day I counted them all up, currently I have £350 worth that I would like to order!
I don't think so!
Kerry
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Thats a fortnight on the Costa del Something !
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Exactly Lydart!!!
Kerry ::) ::) ::)
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Thats a fortnight on the Costa del Something !
decision time.................
which to choose :-\ :-\
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But the certificates will last longer!!
I have a list of certificates I want to get under To Do on my Legacy genealogy software and order a couple each month. That way my husband doesn't really notice the outgoings! Well he probably does but doesn't comment on them.
The only problem is that the list is growing quicker than I am prepared to buy them.
Liz
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the main thing is you have to set your own limits................
and also think of other members of the family...............(I know hubby would prefer the holiday :D)
if you can afford both certs and holiday GREAT!
but I also enjoy an annual break (and need it to recharge batteries ;) ;))
at the moment I only order certificates for key members of the family tree. (otherwise the list would be huge)
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Which is exactly the reason why you shouldn't limit your research to one source. I use as many sources as possible:
Local record offices for parish registers
census returns
BMDs
National archives for wills and other records such as rent books, auction records etc etc etc
London gazette for newspaper reports
and theres more and more and more
As regards certificates I buy a couple every so often and usually only the most important ones or the ones that I feel might lead to more questions being answered.
Kerry
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I try to use other sources where possible but if the family I'm hunting is in Wales or Wiltshire it isn't always possible! I have made several trips to Wales and Wiltshire to use electoral rolls, or parish registers, Wales is more difficult for the p.r.'s but I'm not sure it's cost effective, 3 nights in hotels in Wales, plus petrol = lots of certificates!
I'm now thinking of buying fiche from WSRO £35.00 and using a local library to view, probably equates to one trip in petrol and lunch. But at least I get a nice day out.
newbie
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Oh and I've just had a nice reply from WSFHS about an enquiry I made, cost of info for 20 persons in their records from the Friendly Society index £10.00 that sounds good!
newbie ;D
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Actually, one of the earlier posters had a great idea which would make this so much easier.
Now, where can I find a good medium or shall I try an upturned wine glass on the table?
Is anybody there????????
No, if you ask me, that's cheating! anyway all mine are probably terrified they're just going to get shouted at! ;D ;D ;D
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Some of mine deserve a good shouting to ::) ::) ::)
Kerry
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it appears that many, probably new to genealogy, are researching only by censuses (Quote from Gragareth)
It is true that a lot of new folk just starting on there trees do start with their first census usually the 1901 Getting a census is free thanks to volunteers on rootschat.BUT they first have to work the way up there, with snippits of information gathered from family.It is only then they can start sending for certificates to learn more. There is an order of which to do a tree,if you don't do it in order and with thought.You could find yourself in the wrong tree ;D.I did for three Years,luckily for me i was a bit suspicious about the mothers maiden on the Scotland marriage cert of her son, that i had received, and not having found her anywhere. I never went into it.Three years later it turned out that i was right,the surname had been mistranscribed.So sometimes you cant win can you ;D
Celia