RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Derry (Londonderry) => Topic started by: sandham on Monday 26 March 07 15:48 BST (UK)
-
looking for info on a samuel smallwoods born around 1837 possibly ballinamore married an elizabeth dollas or dallas in dungiven pres church in 1857
can any1 help
thanks
J
-
I have quite a bit of research on Smallwood/s - perhaps we have already had contact via Genes Reunited, if not, please PM me and I will see what I can share with you.
Meanwhile, I think your couple had at least the following children
Elizabeth (1865), Mary Ann (1864) Margaret (1875) William (1870) Joseph (1868) and suspect there may have been one or more before 1864 as well.
-
hi
thanks there was a james 1861
right family just need info on the parents
J
-
Hi Scotsmum or anyone who can help,
Just reading over some old posts and wondered if you can help, have you come across a death of a Samuel Smallwoods born 1899 and died before 1911, am unsure of his age, his parents were Eliza (nee Goligher) and Joseph Smallwoods also unsure if he died in Londonderry or Whiteinch, Partick.
Long shot but thought i'd ask.
J
-
Index to Civil Registrations-
http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#p=collectionDetails;t=searchable;c=1408347
Samuel SMALLWOODS
Death Apr/June 1902 (age 3) Londonderry registration district volume 2 page 158
Birth July/Sept. 1898 Londonderry registration district volume 2 page 161
-
This Smallwoods is an ancestor of mine. The Samuel Smallwoods that married Elizabeth Dallas(or Dollas) would have been my great-great-grandfather. A lot of the family were from Ballinamore or with a lot of marriages in Lower Comber near Claudy.
A son Samuel born in 1859 who married locally, before moving to Scotland and I believe marrying a Mary Doherty.
Is this the same Smallwoods? If you want to PM do so. I got a lot of information from two good sources through Genes Reunited.
-
Hi Scotsmum or anyone who can help,
Just reading over some old posts and wondered if you can help, have you come across a death of a Samuel Smallwoods born 1899 and died before 1911, am unsure of his age, his parents were Eliza (nee Goligher) and Joseph Smallwoods also unsure if he died in Londonderry or Whiteinch, Partick.
Long shot but thought i'd ask.
J
I have a Joseph Smallwoods married an Eliza Goligher, but the only son I have in my tree is another Joseph. This is one branch of the family I have very little knowledge on, but have been trying to get in touch with someone through Genes Reunited who may be from this line. If I get anything I'll post it.
-
Hi
the joseph and eliza would be my great grand parents, as there seem to be so many josephs and samuels am having diff sorting though them, do you have any other info on them regarding there short stay in scotland pm me if you do.
Thanks
J
-
Not much info, I have sent you a PM
-
Hello J
have had a look at my previous Scotlandspeople searches and can't see the death of a Samuel that would fit the child, so aghadoweys find above would seem a good possibility.
scotmum
-
Hi
seems so, im awaiting a death certificate.
Thanks J
-
Hi
Can I ask if anyone has come across a Wilhelmena Smallwoods died around 1970,s trying to find out who her parents were i believe she was born around 1912.
J
-
Her birth is in civil registrations (July/Sept.1912 Londonderry registration district)- too bad she missed being in 1911 census!
http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#p=collectionDetails;t=searchable;c=1408347
-
thanks another cert needed then
J
-
Her dad was a James Smallwoods.........but don't have a mum's name for her......and birth seems to have been Eglinton area, so possibly
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Tamnaherin/Ballynamore/599041/
which is only about 3 miles from Eglinton itself..
-
Not sure if you ever got the certificate, J, but here is an update:
Wilhelmena Smallwoods
Birth 15/05/1912 in Lower Cumber, Londonderry, Ireland
Death 29/01/1973
As suspected, she was a daughter of the James and Elizabeth of the census link in previous post.
James Smallwoods and Elizabeth Smallwoods (yes, to her maiden name) married in 1892 in Blantyre. They were not there at 1891 and by 1894 were back in Ireland.
James was son of Samuel Smallwoods and Elizabeth Dallas.
Elizabeth was daughter of Joseph Smallwoods and Eliza(beth) Simpson.
-
I had a family tree including a James Smallwoods marrying an Elizabeth Smallwoods and this Wilhelmina as a daughter but never knew if, or how, they fit into mine and a relative on this line could never find a marriage cert. Now we know. James is my ancestor!
Scotsmum,
Did the parents details come from an actual certificate as he had James' father as Joseph married Elizabeth Simpson?
-
Deleted. Just noticed that information on 1857 marriage already supplied.
Regards
-
Hello Hatchet
James Smallwoods and Elizabeth Smallwoods did indeed marry in Blantyre and have the respective parents as noted in my earlier post (and yes, another researcher did mistakenly have James' parents as Joseph and Eliza but, at my suggestion and on checking the marriage at scotlandspeople, has now, I believe, corrected same) - the marriage entry is for 1892 and ties exactly with the number of years married of 19 as stated on the 1911 Ireland census for the couple.
James was about 10 years older than Elizabeth and a widower. I have no proof as yet, but suspect his first marriage may have been the one in 1886 between a James Smallwoods and a Margaret Jane Miller, and indeed, a Margaret J Smallwoods appears on the death index for 1889 aged about 21, which could obviously also fit .
Certainly, neither James nor Elizabeth were in Blantyre at 1881, and their first child was born in Ireland by 1894, so it seems likely they travelled there specifically to marry, and both gave their residence as the same house from which they married. The marriage was in accordance with the Free Church of Scotland, which would tie with their Presbyterian background in Ireland. Obviously, it is highly likely that James and Elizabeth were cousins of each other at some level, given the close proximity of the various Smallwood/s families who were clustered in and around the Lower Cumber area. This too, still requires some further work to untangle the lines (not helped by so many repeating use of the same forenames for children born in similar timescales).
-
Hi,
Just thought i'd drop a post in as well to register myself in the Smallwoods lines. I'm the above mentioned by Scotmum....james and elizabeth are my great grandparents. I have a picture of them with various members of the family and i also have a photo of their grave if anyone is interested. My query now is to determine the link between their fathers...Samuel Smallwoods (James's father) and Joseph Smallwoods (Elizabeth's father). As mentioned before....It seems very probable that they are related. This obviously means that my great grandparents, James and Elizabeth, would be cousins of some sort.
Mark
P.S. Thanks Scotmum for the nod in the right direction....2years of confusion cleared up in 2 days :)
-
Well, as a starting point for you, Joseph Smallwoods and Eliza(beth) Simpson married at Holy Trinity C of I in Cumber Lower on 26/11/1866, so getting an opportunity to check the record might be helpful.
update:
Or, check out the marriage of same date on familysearch....which suggests a widowed Joseph Smallwoods married a widowed Eliza Greer, which names his father as Thomas Smallwoods and her father, Robert Simpson (Eliza Simpson having married William Greer in Upper Cumber in 1856) ;D.
Which makes me now think Joseph was probably one and the same Joseph who married a Margaret Bovaird at Holy Trinity on 1/9/1857, as that Joseph's father was also noted as Thomas (Joseph and Margaret had children, so if it was same Joseph, would need to check what became of them)..
This in turn makes me wonder if, whilst the index at familysearch gives an Annabella Smallwoods born in Londonderry in 1882 (and who you, I think, have on your tree as [Anna]Bella, daughter of Joseph Smallwoods and Eliza Simpson, but with no marriage or death details - do you have any source record confirming the name and parentage?), this was perhaps a mistranscript and the birth was actually of Isabella Bovaird Smallwoods, as I have been wondering if Joseph Smallwoods and Eliza Simpson could have been Isabella's parents, as when she married William Hamilton in 1909, they named their 2nd born daughter Elizabeth Simpson Hamilton.
More to ponder on. Thoughts welcome.
-
Hi Scotmum...
Confused???? I'm confused just reading it let alone understanding it. I've attached a few pictures which i think are of relevance. The first is from a grave in Glendermott cemetary and the second is the marriage record of a joseph and Eliza. It states his father as James Smallwoods but her father as Robert Simpson so either the family search record has been entered wrong or there is a weird confusion here that i don't understand
back to you...lol
Moderator Note: image removed- please transcribe information rather than pasting it here
-
Ok, firstly the photo....and this may confuse you further, but.....given the dates of death of the Joseph and Elizabeth on that and the adjacent headstone, I think that grave belongs to Elizabeth Simpson Hamilton, daughter of William Hamilton and Isabella Bovaird Smallwoods. Elizabeth married a Joseph Smallwoods and one of her siblings married a Christina Smallwoods, probably around the 1930/40s
Next the marriage, goodness, it is obvious one of the sources has transcribed the record wrongly re Thomas or James....but which one? Which source is yours from? Best option would be to try and get to see original yourself (I think on microfilm at either Coleraine Library or Proni).
Ervey is good, as it is a known townland linked with Smallwoods name.
Will have another think and comment further later.
ps
I already happen to have the above photo.....did you notice the odd wording on left grave.....it talks about dear wife in respect of Elizabeth......but then shows her death year as after Joseph's(unless her death year should read 1965, not the 1985 it looks to read).
-
Marriage: 26 Nov.1866 Cumber Lower
Joseph Smallwoods, Ervey, Church of Ireland, labourer, widower, father- James Smallwoods shoemaker
Eliza Simpson, Lettermuck, Church of Ireland, widow, father- Robert Simpson, labourer
witnesses: James Kincaid, Matthew Simpson
Source: http://www.rootsireland.ie/
(sorry mods)
I guess without the actual marriage cert we won't know if it or the familysearch record is correct.
To clear things up, is this what you think...
Joseph Smallwoods (previously married to Margaret Bovaird) married a widowed Eliza Greer (previously married to William Greer)?
If in fact, bella smallwoods born 1882 (from familysearch and 1911 census) is Isabella Bovaird Smallwoods, they gave her the name of his late first wife Margaret Bovaird?
-
The actual marriage certificate does not give religion of bride and groom- RootsIreland seems to include this as a 'fact' based on the church where marriage took place.
-
edit to previous post...
Bella Smallwoods born 1882 (from familysearch and 1901 census not 1911)
-
Yes, your summary of my thoughts are accurate.
Regarding this, a niggle at moment is the only death in timescale of a Margaret Smallwoods was not in Londonderry area, albeit in neighbouring area, so not impossible.
Also, an update on thoughts re Isabella Bovaird Smallwoods:-
Yes, agree, I did wonder would a mum be happy having her child given the middle name which was surname of her hubby's first wife. So, thinking cap on, and other possible scenario is:
1)The Bella Smallwoods you have at 1901 was indeed Anabella b 1882 and is therefore possibly the Bella Smallwoods who died in Londonderry in 1908 (albeit birth year given as 1889).
2) Remembering my comment that Joseph Smallwoods and Margaret Bovaird had children....one such was William Smallwoods born 1860....possibly the same William seen here at 1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Waterside/Lismacarrol/1539434/
and including a daughter Isabel aged 11. This Isabel was born in Londonderry in 1889, with no obvious middle name indicated on familysearch, so her birth year fits better with the 1908 death, but, If this William was the son of Joseph and Margaret, then this Isabel could quite possibly have been given the middle name Bovaird, perhaps when christened. Certainly, if she was not the Bella who died in 1908, she would have been of a marrying age in 1909, when Isabella Bovaird Smallwoods married. Interestingly, you will note that this William was a Shoemaker. But, by 1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Waterside/Drumahoe/605581/
this family group show that they had 11 children born and only 8 still living.....all 8 are still at home......no Isabel.....which again, given her birth year of 1889, points to her as having been the Bella who died in 1908.....just to keep things confused.
So, is Isabella Bovaird Hamilton (nee Smallwoods) naming her daughter Elizabeth Simpson Smallwoods a red herring perhaps...the jury is still out on this at moment.
-
Have been pondering over this one again, and still falling in favour of Joseph Smallwoods and Eliza Simpson as parents of the Isabella Bovaird Smallwoods who married William James Hamilton. Putting my thoughts here again, in case any of the other Smallwoods researchers have found any further evidence since last posting.
At 1901 census, William James Hamilton is at home with his parents, William and Martha in Gortnaskey townland http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Bondsglen/Gortnaskey/1527301/ - note two of his siblings being a Mary and a John.
By 1911 he is with new wife Isabella and first child at Killenan townland http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Tamnaherin/Killennan/599143/ Note property number is shown as 12, at 1901 Joseph and Eliza's property was shown as 12 (I realise the numbers are not always accurate).
Of the few other families in Killenan townland at 1911, one is that of Joseph and Eliza Smallwoods, with a Mary Hamilton as servant http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Tamnaherin/Killennan/599134/
and also in Kilennan at 1911 is a John Hamilton, servant http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Tamnaherin/Killennan/599141/.
Allowing for usual age discrepancies in census, this Mary and John could be William James' siblings.
-
Have now, using rootsireland search, which allows for including a father's name, managed to confirm that a Joseph Smallwoods was indeed noted as father of Isabella Bovaird Smallwoods, so looking more and more likely that earlier research indications were correct and that this is she (If this is the case, I supppose it is always possible that as well as being the surname of his first wife, Bovaird may also have been a name linked to Joseph's family too, from a grandmother or suchlike):
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Tamnaherin/Killennan/1528214/
Obviously, if anyone ever manages to get sight of the marriage record, an address on same may prove the final confirmation.
-
Hi
So James is my great granddads (joseph) older brother. That's one line of these confusing Smallwoods cleared up. Scots mum have you ever found a birth for Samuel his parents are Samuel and Elizabeth (Dollas). Have both his marriages and death but not his birth.
J
-
I've seen children from a second marriage being named after first wife- including the surname.
-
Scots mum have you ever found a birth for Samuel his parents are Samuel and Elizabeth (Dollas).
J
It was pre civil registration, but I would hope it might be in the records for Dungiven Presbyterian Church (but haven't had opportunity to check those yet), where his parents married, albeit as you know, his next sibling, James, was baptised at Lower Cumber. Baptism records for the Dungiven church apparently exist from 1835 onward.
I may have sent a copy of the 1857 marriage entry for Samuel and Elizabeth to you back in 2008 (kindly obtained for me by another researcher) , if not, let me know. I also have a copy of the death certificate for Elizabeth's mother, who was also an Elizabeth. Again, let me know if I haven't previously sent you a copy.
Interesting to hear that you have come across such occurrences, aghadowey.
-
hi Scotmum
Could you possibly resend to me, cant seem to find it and change computer and having trouble opening some saved documents.
Found james and the rest of the family at Lower Cumber and assumed Samuel would have been there now wish I had checked Presbyterian when I had the chance.
Thanks J
-
I've sent the copies to you...hope the email address I had is still current. If you have changed address and don't receive them, send me a PM via here with your new email address.
-
Hi
Got them. many thanks
J
-
Have now, using rootsireland search, which allows for including a father's name, managed to confirm that a Joseph Smallwoods was indeed noted as father of Isabella Bovaird Smallwoods, so looking more and more likely that earlier research indications were correct and that this is she (If this is the case, I supppose it is always possible that as well as being the surname of his first wife, Bovaird may also have been a name linked to Joseph's family too, from a grandmother or suchlike):
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Tamnaherin/Killennan/1528214/
Obviously, if anyone ever manages to get sight of the marriage record, an address on same may prove the final confirmation.
Marriage certificate confirms Isabella's address as Killenan.
-
Have now, using rootsireland search, which allows for including a father's name, managed to confirm that a Joseph Smallwoods was indeed noted as father of Isabella Bovaird Smallwoods, so looking more and more likely that earlier research indications were correct and that this is she (If this is the case, I supppose it is always possible that as well as being the surname of his first wife, Bovaird may also have been a name linked to Joseph's family too, from a grandmother or suchlike):
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Tamnaherin/Killennan/1528214/
Obviously, if anyone ever manages to get sight of the marriage record, an address on same may prove the final confirmation.
Marriage certificate confirms Isabella's address as Killenan.
I've been trying to link information on Smallwoods into my tree and found this confusing - Are we saying that Joseph who married Margaret Bovaird then remarried an Eliza J (probably Simpson)?
I see a Margaret Smallwoods died in 1866.