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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Durham => Topic started by: Mercel on Friday 23 March 07 15:12 GMT (UK)
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Does anyone know of where I can find out information about Master Mariners in Sunderland?
Best wishes Mercel
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or Master Mariners at all, I have one in Stockton
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I'd also be interested in this, have a masteer mariner from Sunderland in my tree
Cris
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You could try this site
http://www.nmm.ac.uk/server/show/nav.005002006000003
Also Google Merchant Navy History.
National Archive also has a site.
My husband is a ret. MN officer and apprenticed to a shipping co. had to study at sea and go to lectures etc. during his leaves .
The School in London still exists(Sir John Cass) but I believe no longer has MN course .Others existed in Newcastle and I believe Dr. Bernardo's also has a training school.Engineers up to around the 1960-70's trained in the Dockyards first and then went to sea. Apprenticeships for Engineers came in around this time. Their exams were taken at the colleges ,after they had completed so many days actually at sea.
Hope this helps.
Spring
P.S when my husband went up to sit his masters ,I knew as much about Ships Law as he did!
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You can try the Lloyds Lists
http://www.reach.net/~sc001198/Lloyds.htm
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Thank you both - at last I seem to be pointed in right direction
Cris
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Thank you, I didn't have the first idea where to look :-*
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May be repetitive, but here's a few more sites to look at...
http://www.angelfire.com/de/BobSanders/MMWHIT69.html
http://www.angelfire.com/de/BobSanders/CREWS.html
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/Mariners/1999-03
http://www.mariners-l.co.uk/UKMasters.html
http://www.mariners-l.co.uk/UKLogs,CrewLists.html
http://www.tyneandweararchives.org.uk/pdf/userguide11.pdf
http://www.angelfire.com/de/BobSanders/MASTERS.html
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Does anyone know of where I can find out information about Master Mariners in Sunderland?
Any names in particular? There are quite a few in my family tree...
Frank
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I'm looking for an Alphonso Tiffen, described as a Master Mariner and a Sea Captain, based in Sunderland.You'd think with a name like that he'd be easy to find.
Cris
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Mine is from Stockton, he's Nathaniel Devey, just in case ;D
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Local Records Offices sometimes have some useful stuff. One of my ancestors was a Master Mariner who sailed from Littlehampton, Sussex (interestingly he sailed to and from Sunderland regularly)
The Sussex Record Office had some ships records, quarterly returns, crew lists etc for ships he sailed - very patchy as to what has survived so could never piece together his whole career or anytihng, but very interesting all the same.
I dont know if you would, therefore, find anything at the appropiate records office for Sunderland.
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Just a thought - but if we all keep a look out for each others names then we've more chance of finding them!
Cris
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Dont you worry - I already flicked through the copies of crew lists etc that I do have to see if ALphoso or Nathaniel are mentioned! but no....
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Thanks for looking Liz,
I'll keep an eye out for Alphonso too Cris :-\
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Cris, did you see the RADIUS 1854? Not the master but it was owned by Tiffin & co, out of Sunderland..........co-incidence?
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Thanks mine are Richard Smith (what a name to find) and Cummins Bolton Smith both Sunderland.
Best wishes Mercel
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I have a cd with little snippets of information re Sunderland, there is a Thomas and Benjamin Tiffin listed as Ship Builders at Monks Wreath Quay and a
Thomas Tiffin ship builder listed at Tavistock Place, Sunderland, unfortunately do not know the date.
Are these any of your Tiffins?
Mercel
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thanks for looking liz, will keep looking he will turn up one day, I'm sure. Will keep a look out fot Nathaniel as well
Cris
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Just read your message as well mercel!
Don't think Benjamin and Thomas are mine, Alphonso only had one son, Alphonso junior and he died before he was a year old.However Alphonso had brothers but so far I've not researched them. Have made a note of your names as well. If we find just one name between us that would be something wouldn't it?
And just seen another message from madpants- Haven't seen the Radius at all - but now I think I have to check out Alphonso's brothers. The family moved to Sunderland from Wisbech in Cambridgeshire.
Must try and find time to search further
Cris
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Can I but in and Ask for a lookout for two mariners please.
Hugh Reynolds born Manchester, Lancashire abt 1856,
and Dennis Finnigan, born Drogheda Ireland abt 1856.
Thanks
Gay
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I recently had sight of a copy of the Death Certificate for Johnson Thompson of 1 South Cliff, Roker, Sunderland who died on 30th January 1897 aged 64, Master Mariner.
I can provide further information to anyone who is interested.
Wearsider.
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How do any of you know that your ancestors were Master Mariners? According to census, marriage and death certificates, some of my ancestors varied between master mariners, marine engineers, dock workers and usually in that order! So demotion rather than promotion.
Also where can one find a list of trawlermen/fishermen? Some of my ancestors were trawlermen, but I have only found information about one of them who died at sea. One other may have died at sea - no other information for him.
Liz
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With my John Edmonds there is no doubt he was a master MAriner
I have several ships quarterly returns (from Sussex record office) and crew lists for ships he sailed - and he is clearly recorded as the Master of the ships.
From as early as 1774 masters or owners of merchant ships were requird to keep Muster Rolls giving deatils of the crew. But following the 1835 Merchant Shipping Act the Master of every ship over 80 tons was required to send to the Regostrar of Shipping the written agreement of every member of the crew, laying down wages, voyages to be made, duties of the crew, and provisions ot be provided. The Master was also required to make a return every half year to the Shipping Master at the home port (in my case Littlehampton) giving details of voyages made in the prevuoos 6 months, crew employed, etc.
These had to be filed within 21 days of end of June and Dec.
Now, few of these have survived and what have are scattered and difficult to trace. The first place to trry is the Local record Office, but I understand Kew and the Maritime Museum at Greenwich may be other places to try.
From 1823 all ships over 80 tons had to carry a quota of apprentices , th the same Merchant ShippingAct required Apprenticeship iondentures to be filed with the Registrar General of Shipping. Again very few of these documents survive - but you may be lucky! I have a copy of the Apprenticeship indentue entries for two ancestors who went to sea (there are several in my tree, though only one MAster mAriner) but sadly they are both annotated 'Drowned'.
Re the second of these we found out a lot about the incident from a very helpful person at Greenwich - It was a good few years ago and I think we had to make an appointment to go there rather than it being generally open, but my memory is a bit vague. But they were very helpful and found an article describing the incidnet in which the 'Remembrance' on which my rellie was acabin boy, collided with 'the Kelloe' a few miles off Flamborough Head and how they limped to shore only to discover the cabin boy was missing, so presumed to have fallen over board.
So - sorry this is long, you may not actually be interested - but the moral is to keep looking, try every everything and everywhere, and it is amazing what you can come up with! For every hundred or more ideas you follow up that get nowhere, there will be one that produces results and that make sit all worthwhile! Well, that's been the policy of my brother and I over about 15 years!
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my rellie, Alphonso began as a seaman apprentice, then was described as a seaman, Sea Captain then Master Mariner, but so far I've find no actual proof. Finding time to do more research is a bit difficult now - work is just so busy but am not giving up, just doing a little at a time. Of course they could say anything on a census couldn't they? Incidentally I have another rellie described as a fireman on a ship (i have the name of ship somewhere). Would it be possible to trace him?
Cris
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In 1845 the Board of Trade instituted a system of exams of competancy for men becoming Master and MAtes, initially only for foreign going ships, but from 1854 they became compulsorary even for coastal trade.
So, in theory, all Master MAriners should have a certificate number after that date.
My 'John' who was a Master Mariner (well, as I said he was master on a number of voyages) never seemed to have a certificate number, so I guess he 'qualified' before 1854 - but I reckon it was all very informal before then as to who called themselves a Master and who ddint!
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Nathaniel on all census' I can find him on is down as a 'Master Mariner' I have no reason to doubt that. :)
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Alphonso then was definitely qualified after 1854 -he was a 17 yeard old appprentice mariner in 1851! Would his certificate number appear on a census? That would give me a starting point surely?
Cris
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Lizdb
I was interested in what you had written and it was very helpful. I know the one who drowned was just a Bosun, and my aunt told me that he had drowned at sea either in the North Sea off UK coast or somewhere in the arctic. I actually found a record of this death on a website where a member of the public from Hull (who I guess must have been involved in trawling) has compiled a list of most of the trawlermen from Hull who were lost at sea, from mid 1800s onwards. My ancestor (or half-ancestor) as he was the son of my g.gran from her first marriage was on the list, giving the name of his ship etc. However, I cannot find his father (my g.gran's first husband) who was also supposed to have died at sea, he wasn't on the list I have.
My lot all went to sea during the 1870s onwards, so should have been registered somewhere.
Liz
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There were quite a few private and merchant ships that sailed from Sunderland, Shields and Tynemouth during times of war, that captured the enemy ships and made money from the cargo that they got from these ships. These were privateers authorized by the government, better known as Pirates ;D
Keep a lookout in the newspapers of the time and see if you can spot any of your ancestors ships, then you can read about the cargo which they captured.
So, how many of you thought your ancestor was just a (master) mariner /seaman and he was also a Pirate? ;D
You can read about them here:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privateer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy
Rewcastle
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Liz - the first place to look for your g grans first husband is the Marine Deaths index (assuming he died after 1837) - it can be searched in person at the FRC in Islignton London, or it is on line at findmypast (pay to view) though ancestry dont have it.
The death cert may be quite helpful as will hopefully give the ship he was on etc (I have the death cert for my other rellie that drowned - his ship, the Niphon, went missing round Cape Horn in June 1881) It also gave the ships official number, which I understand is useful in finding out more about the actual ship from LLoyds register (not sure of proceedure on that, my brother did it, but they do have a website which i am sure would advise)
Of course, if it just family rumour that he died at sea, it might be worth looking for a 'normal' death for him first, to rule that out!
Lizdb
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Lizdb
Thanks, I'll look on findmypast as I have a sub to that and don't use it nearly enough.
I heard recently from a descendant of my g.gran's youngest daughter by her first marriage, that her father and cousin (who are by definition one generation nearer to the shared g.gran) that this man died at sea like his son. I've searched all the normal death listings and cannot find him on those - well at least not in the time span he was supposed to have died. I have found a man at what would be the appropriate age, who died a few years later, back in Norfolk from where he originated. If I don't get any joy from findmypast marine deaths index, I will get that death certificate. It might show why no-one (so far) has found a marriage between my g.gran and what is supposedly her 2nd husband!
Liz
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I hope you don't mind me butting in on a thread.
My husband's family all seem to have been sailers of some kind, either watermen, firemen, and Master Mariners.
I haven't been able to find much info about any of them though.
I have found out that William S. Hurdman was a Master of a couple of paddle steamers. He seems to have moved from Sunderland (1871) Rye (1890s) Eastbourne/Hastings (1900ish) and Leith in Scotland (1901) and Middlesbourgh in 1907.
Would anyone have any other info on any Hurdman sailers that they might find, I would be very greatful.
Regards
Julie
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Researchers of mariners in the Tyneside area are lucky in having an excellent resource.... a (very large) book called
"A Dictionary of Tyne Sailing Ships" by Keys, which contains the detailed c.v. of about 6000 ships. It also has cross-referenced alpha indexes of ship owners and Master Mariners.
But the common theme was that these ships and personnel were registered (at Custom House) for trade on the River Tyne.
I also wanted a similar resource for the River Wear, but staff at Sunderland Library (Local History Section) said there existed no equivalent to the "Tyne dictionary"
From the dictionary I learned that Master Mariner and Master of a ship were not necessarily the same thing.
Yes a captain or a master of a registered ship had to be a qualified "Master Mariner". But a ship could have had more than one MM at the same time, one as captain/master of the ship, with the other biding his time waiting for his "own" ship.
After spending much time in this book, seeing the vast number of ships that were lost or sunk, I got the impression that many MM ( many who also owned the ship or some 64ths of it) were brave "cowboys."
Michael Dixon
Newcastle
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I'm looking for William Brown Smurthwaite from Hartlepool, whose ship/boat Defiance was lost at Staiths on 20 October 1860. I got this information from Hartlepool Library. I'd like to know more about this but have drawn a blank. Can anyone help, please? I've no idea where Staiths is, unless it's Staithes (with an e), near Whitby. I'm wondering if he went down with the ship because I can't find him on the 1861 census.
mjn
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Hey guys,
Would any of the links include Norwegian Master Mariners ???
Christopher
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If he was in port on the 1881 he would be, one of the links (not sure which, I looked a while ago) has a list of seaman in port on the night of the 1881, and there are loads of Swedish, Norwegian German sailors etc
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I'm trying to find out more about a Francis Burn.
He died ashore in 1839 and before that he was in the almshouse hospital for seamen at Trafalgar Square in Sunderland. Their record reads:
'Francis Burn aged 48; 33 years at sea; 5 children under 14; resident at John Street, Monkwearmouth (this is where his children are living in 1841 census with an Ann Clark).
Seaman on board the 'Ormus' took ill in October last. Went to sea in the 'Mary' of Whitby in May last when the disease returned. F is now called (sic) a water in the chest.'
He died in November that year.
How could I find out more about him? I believe that he was acting as a member of the crew because of his condition but he had formerly qualified as a Master Mariner.
Ashley
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You presumably have evidence that he was a master mariner, I suggest that you start from that. Can you supply some details as this would probably lead to the ships of which he was master.
David
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The information comes from his son's marriage certificate - I suppose he could have built it up a bit but I'm working on the assumption that it is true.
Ashley
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Dear All,
I hope you don't mind me joining this thread!
I have a photograph of a model vessel called SS Grantleyhall, West Hartlepool, and on the back is written "Daddy's ship" - intriguing!
I looked up the ship and found it here:
http://www.theshipslist.com/ships/lines/hartlepool.htm
http://www.mariners-l.co.uk/WWI%20LOSSES-G.htm
http://www.mariners-l.co.uk/ON110000.htm
As it was built in 1902, I'm assuming this to be one of the Goodchild or Robson family - probably Frank Lewis Goodchild. b.c. 1862 in Buckinghamshire (perhaps a bit old!) or more likely Edward Stanhope Robson b.1884 Leeds). It's all a bit weird though as Edward was a hammer forger...
I was just wondering how I go about finding out which of my relatives may have served on this ship? I would be very grateful of any help you could give me.
Many thanks,
Helen
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Hi Mercel
My ancestor Jacob Weakner was a master mariner and I found dozens of letters written by him form 1800 to 1813 in the maritime museum aty Greenwich. Try also The Trinity House Petitions index which can be found in many libraries - if you can't find one, give me the names you are interested in and I will look them up in my copy.
Michael
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Another one butting in ;)
Can anyone tell me how to contact the Maritime Museum at Greenwich, please?
My master mariner, John Cooper, was in Australia when he was Captain of several whaling ships, but I can't find out anything about his life before he left England. He was born in Greenwich, 1807, and was in Australia by 1837, so not registered as a master mariner with Lloyds and not on any English census's.
Leonie.
PS. I looked at some of the sites recomended here but found nothing. (Well nothing about my Captain John Cooper, but I spent a few hours looking anyway ;D )
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Hi Leonie
Here are the contact details for the National Maritime Museum
Museum : +44 (0)20 8858 4422
general enquiries at the Libraryl: +44 (0)20 8312 6516
For collection enquiries there are three contacts:
Library
Tel: +44 (0)20 8312 6516 e: library[at]nmm.ac.uk
Manuscripts
Tel: +44 (0)20 8312 6691/6669 e: manuscripts[at]nmm.ac.uk
Charts and maps
Tel: +44 (0)20 8312 6757 e: bdthyn[at]nmm.ac.uk
Their website ins www.nmm.ac.uk (http://www.nmm.ac.uk)
You could also try the National Archives as he may have a Seaman's Ticket although the dates you mention may be too early - the main records start in 1835.
Hope this helps
Ashley
Moderator comment: e-mail addresses modified to prevent spamming. Please replace [at] with @
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Just bookmarking as I have a number of relatives who worked at sea...
Robert Dalton Wray died at Sea on the Chieftan of Whitby
And William Wray died on his passage home from singapore
There are other mariners in the family and they moved from Whitby to Hartlepool and back again.
Some of the links look interesting
Claire
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Thank you Ashley.
:)
Leonie.
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Hi
I don't know if any of you guys are still looking for info on Master Mariners but the British Newspaper site has a lot of info particularly the Sunderland Echo and Shields Gazette regarding shipping news of the 1800s
http://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/
I found out a lot about my Great Great Grandfather Capt Alex Bonallie from Sunderland on there, but beware the OCR text isn't brilliant try using lots of variants for names I've come across Bonnelly, Bouallie etc on my search, only trouble is once you find out about their journeys the next thing is to find out more about the ships they sailed on which opens up a whole new set of problems, in my case been on the Lloyds lists etc for the Brigs Rhine and Tryphena both of which sank (think Great Granddad must have been like Uncle Albert from Only Fools and Horses) although the Tryphena went missing when he wasn't the Captain and his last recorded voyages were on the brig Robert and Mary in 1878, big gap between 1864 and 1878 with no information on his voyages so if anyone does hear of any voyages he was on in between those years it would be appreciated.
Regards
Julie
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Thanks for that Julie - it looks a bit expensive but it may be worth a shot.
Cheers
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Hi Mercel
My ancestor Jacob Weakner was a master mariner and I found dozens of letters written by him form 1800 to 1813 in the maritime museum aty Greenwich. Try also The Trinity House Petitions index which can be found in many libraries - if you can't find one, give me the names you are interested in and I will look them up in my copy.
Michael
I was interested to see your post. I am looking at the family of Dorothy Weakner who was Jacob's granddaughter. I have been looking for the death of her father George Weakner who was also a master mariner and who I believe died when his ship, the South Stockton floundered and the crew. bar two all died in 1849. I think the ship was sailing from Quebec when she got into trouble. Do you have any information on this. The only info I have found is in the Newspaper Archives and they only refer to Captain Weakner, not George. I have followed his commands through several ships but can't find a reference to 'George' Weakner as master of the South Stockton. I know he died prior to 1851 and I can find no reference to his death in the usual records. Any advice would be welcome.
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Just in case you hadn't noticed, mrnobile made that posting in February 2008 - very nearly fifteen years ago. He hasn't logged in here since May 2009, so I think a response is unlikely. You could try a pm, although if mrnoble doesn't receive email notifications about replies on threads he was active in, it is probably the same with a pm. Failing that perhaps Sarah or Trystan could send an email alerting him to this thread.
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I was just keeping my fingers crossed. I know I have posts on here from early 2000's and thought there might be a chance.