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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Carmarthenshire => Topic started by: king william on Wednesday 21 March 07 22:09 GMT (UK)
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I have traced my family back to Cadwgan Fawr and Alice Cydifor who lived in Kidwelly, Carmarthenshire, around the 1200's, I have their history back to the Welsh warlords but I am interested in any knowledge of the maternal lines of their son Cadwgan Fychan ap Cadwgan and his descendents on my line.
It is the maternal lines I am interested in of Cadwgan Fychan ap Cadwgan, Gruffeth ap Maredydd, Maredydd ap Gruffeth, Gruffudd ap Maredydd, John Daylwyn (or Deulwyn), David Daylwyn, Evan Daylwyn (he was a bard of Glamorgan and was also known as Ieuan Deulwyn).
After that, the family went to Somerset, England and changed their name to Busshe/Bushe, the first of this line was Duyland Bushe born about 1427 in Carmerthen, on a chart I have he is mentioned as having married a "Gaby" but I have never traced her. Their son William Busshe married a Miss Strange - a co-heir of the "House of Strange" of Gloucestershire and I have never been able to trace her either, their son was Paul Bushe, the first Bishop of Bristol.
I have a lot of history from Duyland Bushe to the present day, but would love to trace 1...any maternal lines of my line from Cadwgan Fawr through to Duyland Bushe, 2...Gaby who married Duyland Bushe, 3... any knowledge of Miss Strange.
It is a tall order but someone may just have the information I would love to know.
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Hiya,
I'm not sure if you are still trying to find information about the Deulwyn/Bush/Strange family, but I have information from my family tree about them.
Duyland Bush (1427-1490) married Cicely Ryde (of Talecharne, Carmarthenshire, Wales). Their son, William Bush, married into the Strange family - although her first name does not seem to be recorded anywhere! My aunt has also (strangely enough) married into the Strange family, so we are not giving up hope. They had five or six children and many, many descendents!
If you want any information, please contact me. :)
Tamzin
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Hi Tamzin,
There has been so much research done on this line - I never did find the maternal lines of my particular line from Cadwgan and William Bush and Miss Strange are of my direct line - do you realise just how connected the Strange family are to the big medieval families.
The name was le Strange or L'Strange and they married into the Corbet, de Somery, Fitzalan, Willoughby, Hussey, de Camoys, Talbot, families for example.
Cicely Rede was also known as Cicely Rede and she was a daughter of Thomas Rede of Carmarthenshire, Thomas was a son of Sir William Rede and Jonet Wirriott, William was an illegitimate son of Sir Thomas Rede who died in 1412 and was a trader of international standing.
As far as Cadwgan Fawr and his wife Alice Cydifor go, she was the one with the great line - she is descended from many of the Welsh kings. Try googling "Alice verch Cydifor" and go back on the line of her grandmother Catherine verch Rhys who was a daughter of Rhys ap Gruffydd aka The Lord Rhys, and you will find the Welsh kings.
The information I have been given is by several researchers of the Bush family and their Welsh origins and has been done very professionally by research at the College of Arms, various universities and was done by some very credible people over many years.
Cadwgan also did have a good line - if you google "Llewellyn ap Gwrgan" you will see his history, he goes back to some early kings of Dyfed.
I can email you some of my lines if you contact me offline as they are on documents
Robin aka King William
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Tamzin,
Have just re-read your message to me and I would love to know of any information you have - instead - sorry - I launched into the history I already have.
It is a fascinating family to be a part of and I would also love to know which Strange line you are from.
I look forward to hearing of your information - I am in New Zealand
Robin aka King William
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Hello Robin,
I too believe I am related to Cadwgwn Fychan,the first son of Cadwgan Fawr.He married
Ellen of Carrog,in the Parish of Llanddeiniol.They had issue-Llewelyn and Efa.Llewelyn married Gladys,daughter of Meredith Fychan of BlaenTrean,Carmarthenshire,they had issue-Richard fychan,Rhys Du,David ap Llywelyn,Ieuan ap Llewelyn,Nest Voel and Ellin.
Hope this goes some way towards helping you,I have more information if you are interested let me know if these are the lines you are looking for.
Regards,David
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http://www.gtj.org.uk/en/small/item/GTJ08664//page/1/
This site from Gathering the Jewels will let you read the Golden Grove book of pedigrees, which may be of interest to you lucky people.
Pinot :)
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Brawd Houdini - thank you for the information - just to check that we are talking about the same people - Cadwgan Fawr who married Alice verch Cydifor was born about 1200. He was a son of Cadwgan ap Gruffydd and Efa verch Llewellyn, she was born about 1170.
The children of Cadwgan and Alice were Thomas, Gruffydd who married Jonet verch Gryg, Llewellyn and Cadwgan Fychan who appear to have been twins, Gwilym, and Ieuan who married Lleuca.
The information I have is from a chart named Llywelyn ap Gwrgan of Cydweli in "Welsh Genealogies" and is well researched.
The line then follows the family of the second son Gruffydd and Jonet Gryg.
At a guess an approximate birth date for Cadwgan Fychan would be about 1230/1250.
Pinot - yes we are very lucky to have it traced back this far - I cannot take any credit for the information this far back, there are other Bush genealogists who have gone to the College of Arms and to the universities to look at the history and have collated it from real evidence and not just the internet - for them it has been years in the making of this history and I am so grateful that they have given it to me.
I posted the original question because we did not have the wives of the first few generations descending from Cadwgan and Alice
Robin (King William)
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Apologies Robin,
We are not talking about the same person,mine appeared much later in the 1400's,he was a 2nd cousin to Owain Glynfyfrdwy[Owain Glendower] and fought alongside him in the uprising.
However I might have something else which could help.Looking through my records I came across Kydivor ap Dinwal.He appears roughly around the dates you mention.He was married to Katherine,a
daughter of Lord Rys,Prince of South Wales,who was commissioned by King Henry 1,in 1169,to be Chief Justice of that country [DwnnI.28,37,65,80,227].
Kydivor ap Dinwal took by escalade,for his Father-in-law the Castle of Cardigan.In gratitude,Lord Rys
granted him Castle Howell and other lands in the Parish of Llandyssill,also a Grant of Arms,viz:-Sable,a
spear-head embrued between three scaling-ladders,argent;on a chief gules a castle tripple turreted of the second.There is a comment by Meyrick in a note to Dwnn1,227 that this coat is far too elaborate for the time and that it was in all likely-hood used by Kydivor's descendants.
Hope this helps,I came across it as I'm researching the connection between my Cadwgan and the Lord Rys.
David [brawdhoudini]
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David,
Many thanks for your reply, our Cadwgan's are very likely to be related through the centuries. Even the names resonate, such as Llewellyn, Elin, Ieuan, I have Ieuan Deulwyn, a bard of Glamorgan on my direct line, he was a descendent of Cadwgan Fawr.
You have Owain Glyndwr as a second cousin to yours and I have Elizabeth le Strange, the grandmother of Owain on my line, it was her brother Hamon le Strange who was my direct line.
I also have Catherine verch Rhys on my line, she was the grandmother of my Alice Cydifor who married Cadwgan Fawr.
If it helps - my line from Alice verch Cydifor,
her mother was Lleuca verch Cydifor, daughter of Catherine verch Rhys and Cydifor ap Dinewal.
Catherine was a daughter of The Lord Rhys and Gwennllian verch Madog.
I am sure you will find a link between your Cadwgan Fychan and the Lord Rhys, all those families married into each other all the time.
An example of that is in the message I sent you yesterday - you may see the name of Jonet verch Gryg. Her father was Rhys Gryg ap Rhys and he was a son of the Lord Rhys and a brother of Catherine, the grandmother of my Alice verch Cydifor.
My Cadwgan was also related to the Dwnn family, they were cousins and I am sure you will come across their name in your research. If you come across the name of Thomas Rede, he is also an ancestor of mine and he was a cohort of Owain apparently.
Good luck and I am interested to know how you get on - email me offline if you like
Robin aka King William
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Hello Robin
I am descended from John Bushe of Dylton, so we have the same common ancestors of Strange, Farnfold (Fernefolde), etc. I have followed up on the links in the thread and also on the Celtic Royal Genealogy site http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=PED&db=aet-t&id=I89953 but I am struggling to see where Cicely, daughter of Thomas Ryde fits in. What is the link between our Thomas and the Rede (Reads) listed here?
Many thanks, Nevil
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Nevil,
Nice to hear from you - I will send you a personal message and get y ou to send me your email address and I will forward you the documents as I have them.
On my line there are five of us doing it, and one of them - he is a very educated American who has gone right into the Rede line, has a huge amount of information which has taken him a few years to suss out the line which I will forward to you when I receive your email address offline.
I will now email you offline
Robin
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I have a lot of history from Duyland Bushe to the present day, but would love to trace 1...any maternal lines of my line from Cadwgan Fawr through to Duyland Bushe, 2...Gaby who married Duyland Bushe, 3... any knowledge of Miss Strange.
It is a tall order but someone may just have the information I would love to know.
I'm looking too...my 17th great grandfather is Duyland Bush(e).
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Hi Canoelover,
I am interested that you mention Gaby which means that you must also have the ancestral chart done by Burke. It is the only place I have seen a mention of the mysterious Gaby and no-one I know has ever found out who she was.
My line is from Duyland to his son William and Miss Strange, they had at least five children - John, my ancestor, Edward, Paul, first Bishop of Bristol, Margery and Margaret.
Miss Strange is a mystery although we know she was "a co-heiress of Glooucestershire" and probably lived in Mounds Court in Syston, Glos. Her father may well have been John Strange and she was possibly a granddaughter or great-granddaughter of a John Strange, born in 1400 and who was Mayor of Cirencester, although it is said that there were no mayors of Cirencester back then so he may have been some leader, something to do with "the staple"
1..John married Elizabeth Ffernefolde and their son
2..William Bushe married Johan Packer.
3..Their son John married Agnes Kitley in 1577 and John, one of their sons who was born in 1594 went to Ireland and married Mary Grey.
Elizabeth, a daughter of that John and Mary married a Mr Hobson and they are ancestors of the Queen Mother and therefore of the Queen and her children and grandchildren.
I am in contact with several people also of this same line and one of them lives the USA and he has been to the College of Arms and the universities to check out all sorts of links to our family. HIs research has been thorough, he has also done a huge study on Cicely Rede (or Ryd) who married Duyland.
We do know that the coat-of-arms that Miss Strange brought to her marriage shows she was from the le Strange line of Knockyn - google that and you will see heaps.
Going back to before Duyland, the name was Deulwyn or Daylwyn, and as far as I know the line is as below,
Duyland Bushe married Cicely Rede, a daughter of Thomas Rede,
David Daylwyn or Deulwyn/Daulwyn of Kidwelly,
John of Carmarthen
Gruffydd ap Maredydd
Maredydd ap Gruffydd,
Gruffydd ap Cadwgan, his three known children were Maredydd, Elen, and Ieuan,
Cadwgan ap Fychan ap Cadwgan of Kidwelly,
Cadwgan Fawr ap Cadwgan who married Alice Cydifor, have you checked out her very royal line of Welsh kings.
Another very notable man who is a direct ancestor of ours was Ieuan Deulwyn and he may have been a brother of Duyland - he was a bard of Glamorgan and there is still writing of his in the Welsh universities.
Keep in touch and email me privately if you wish.
Robin aka King William
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I am new to this thread but am wondering if anyone can find a link from Duyland Busshe to
James Bush, baptised 10 September 1787 at All Saints, Bristol.
http://www.one-name.org/profiles/bush.html
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I see this thread is quite old but I wonder if any of the above people are still active here? I cannot yet direct message as I only just joined.
I'm new here but wonder if the poster " King William" is still active? I also descend from Cadwgan Fychan ap Cadwgan/Deulwyn/Bushe/Strange. Looking for more info especially this "American" King William mentions and has apparently done much research.
I am unable to send messages directly on root chat as I just joined.
Any leads are most appreciated.
Max