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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Mimble on Tuesday 20 March 07 19:45 GMT (UK)
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Hullo
My great great grandfather Edmund Francis Coleman was born in Sydney NSW in 1836. I am trying to find out more about his origins.
I know that at the age of 27 he was a farmer in South Africa when he married Margery Hester Moodie in Smithfield, Orange Free State in 1863. Their children were Georgina Marian Johanna Coleman, Tommy Coleman, Evelyn Coleman and Lucreza Coleman. Georgina (Josie) married Thomas Benjamin Hulley - they were my great grandparents.
Looking for Edmund's parents in NSW, I found his birth record at http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/IndexSearch?form=IndexingSearch&SessionID=6728433&sname=coleman&gname=edmund&fname=&mname=&event=births&frange=1836&trange=&place=&x=68&y=14
giving his parents as George and Maria. Anne M 1832 and Thomas B 1834 are also recorded as siblings.
How can I find out more about them? Could George have been a convict (and/or Maria?) I have searched through some convict indexes and have found two George Colemans.
Last name
Coleman
First name
George
Ship
Mangles
Year
1824
Ticket no
29/41
States Records shelf ref
Apr-69
States Records reel no
911
Last name
Coleman
First name
George
Ship
Lord Melville
Year
1829
Native place
NR
Trade or calling
NR
District
Northampton
Ticket no
48/207
States Records shelf ref
Apr-15
States Records reel no
961
Am I missing anything obvious? Any ideas as to how to proceed? I have some early photos of Edmund and Margery Coleman and their children to share.
Thanks
Mary
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George Coleman, convict, received a certificate of pardon in 1831. He came out on the convict transport "Mangles" in 1824. This information from www.records.nsw.gov.au - go to Indexes online. You can order copy of this record if desired.
You will need to access "Convict Indents" or "Alphabetical lists of convicts" (at librarie, etc.) for more information. If you think the above is worth following up, you can look up "Mangles" arriving 1824, and it should state where he was tried, age, etc.
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Hi Mary
There is a marriage in 1826 for a John Coleman and Maria Wilks (three references in fact) and married at Parramatta St Johns. The Colonial Secretarys Papers hold an entry for a George or John Coleman on the Mangles 1824 so looks like he went by both names but married under John Coleman.
Maria Wilks arrived on the Lord Wellington in 1820 and obtained her Certificate of Freedom in 1832. You can order a copy from the State Records of NSW website which Diana gave you.
The convict indents would hold information giving their ages, native place, trade, when and where convicted, sentence, personal description. Are you able to look these up?
Also, the 1828 census of NSW should also say where they were living. You will probably need to start with their marriage and the birth of Edmund to help confirm these findings.
Cazay
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Thank you very much - this is all fascinating. I am in the UK so all of this is online. Are these convict indents or alphabetical lists of convicts, and the 1828 census online? if not, are they available on a CD?
This is really taking shape now, thanks.
Mary
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Hi Mary
As you are in the UK I could do a lookup and see what sort of information I can find on John/George Coleman and Maria Wilks which will be in the next few days, whenever I get a chance to visit the library.
As you get more information it will become clearer whether or not they are the parents of Edmund. Details of their trials would be held at the Archives in Kew.
It is rather exciting when you find that you have convicts in your tree.
Cazay
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Hi Mary
The John Coleman & Maria Wilks are on the 1828 census
Details are
John Coleman -aged 30yrs,Protestant
Came free on the Lord Wellington 1820
occup shipwright
Abode -Cambridge Street Sydney
Maria Coleman age 25yrs ,Protestant
Came on the Lord Wellington 1820
Govt Servt -sentence 14yrs
The George Coleman who came Mangles 1824
Govt Svt to John Redman ,George Street,Sydney
Age 35yrs
sentence 7yrs
So they are two separate people
Annie
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Interesting :o
And yet, Colonial Secretarys Index 1788-1825 states.......... COLEMAN, George or John, per Mangles 1824
How many Colemans were on board? AND, did she marry the John Coleman on the Lord Wellington?
Cazay
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Thanks, this is so interesting!
My feeling is that as John Coleman was a free person on the Lord Wellington, he would not have used the alias George. Pity, because I need a George and Maria Coleman parents for my Edmund.
I wonder if the Mangles George/John married a Maria too?
Or the Lord Melville George?
I'd be grateful for any lookups possible.
Many thanks
Mary
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Hi
I checked the Permission to Marry as Maria Wilks was a convict and needed permission-states husband John Coleman came Free.
There was no George Coleman on Permission to Marry.
There was also only one George on the 1828 census.
What I would suggest is to look at the birth entry in 1836 -these are actually Church Records as registration hadn't started then.
They are available in most reasonably sized libraries in Australia.
There just might be some extra information on them if you are lucky -like his occupation but at least it will tell you exactly where in NSW they were living.
Annie
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Hi Mary
The 1823, 1824, 1825 Muster List of NSW shows Maria Wilkes, convict, Lord Wellington 1820, 14 years.........Sydney (wife of William Wilkes)
There was no George Coleman Mangles 1824 listed but there is nothing to say that he is the George Coleman you are looking for. You will need to find out something about the parents to begin looking in the right direction so as you are in the UK you can order a transcription on the NSW bdm website. There usually isn't a lot of information on these early baptisms but you need to start somewhere.
Cazay
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Thank you all very much for your interest and help. I will follow this up.
Mary
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Hi Mary, just read your entry re Coleman.I can get access to the early births or baptisms to check the entry for you but not until Wednesday.I could also check convict indents for you.I have been using these resources for my research on convicts and there are many errors in the transposing as you can imagine,mainly because of age and poor handwriting!
Marg.
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Thanks Peggy
I have just ordered a copy of Edmund's birth certificate from http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au . Any help you can give would be greatly appreciated.
Yours
Mary
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Well I have received the Baptism certificate and it tells me that George Coleman was a Bandmaster, 4th Regiment!
So he wan't a convict after all. Awww!
Still, at least I have something to go on with tracing his origins. Anyone have any ideas how to proceed?
Thanks for all your help with this, it is intriguing,
Mary
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Mary,
What name is given for Edmund's mother? I cannot find a marriage for George Coleman in the NSW BMDs, so he may have brought his wife here with him from England. The 4th Regt was The 4th (The King's Own) Regiment of Foot and served in various parts of Australia from 1832 to 1837. Many of its members remained in Australia.
There is a list of names of those who remained (www.regiments.org) which includes a William Coleman, but not George Coleman. That same website will give some info re the Regt, including its Museum, The King's Own Royal Regiment Mumeum, Lancaster. There are phone numbers and an email address - you could contact them for personal information re past members of the Regt.
The PRO, London will have military records, possibly even the Description Books. The Mitchell Library, Sydney, also will have records of any British regiment which served here. Description Books give the name, previous occupation, where from, age, physical description, etc of every soldier.
There are 2 deaths in Sydney you might consider for George, that is if you know he remained here. There is one in 1862 and one in 1872. If all other enquiries fail, you could try these as NSW death certificates show parents' names if known to the informant, place of birth, how long in the colony, etc. If you think he returned to England, the Museum records in Lancaster may be able to confirm this.
The website above also can tell you the names and dates of the ships which brought the 4th Regt to Australia.
Diana
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Thank you Diana
That is very interesting and gives me lots to follow up. Edmund's mother is given as Maria Coleman. I don't know if the family remained in Australia, all I know is that Edmund was in South Africa by 1863 and married Marjorie Hester Moodie in that year.
Mary
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Well, at last I have followed this up.
George Coleman joined the army as a drummer boy at the age of 9 in 1807, and was discharged at the age of 41, "worn out in the service". I should think so when you look at his record of service!
The regiment he joined, the 29th, was posted to the Peninsula and fought its first battle there in 1808. They fought many fierce and memorable battles throughout the Peninsula campaign, where Wellington called them 'the best Regiment in this Army'.
Then they were posted to North America in 1814, but did not see much action. In 1816 they were urgently recalled to deal with the resurgent Napoleon but arrived back just too late to take part in the Battle of Waterloo. By now George was a Private, and got married in 1819 to Maria.
In 1824 he became a musician in the 4th Regiment, then became a private, sergeant and bandmaster. In 1837 - 1839 he served in India and New South Wales, and was discharged in 1840. His character was exemplary: "His general conduct has been that of a very well-conducted and efficient soldier".
Son of a labourer and born in Gillingham in 1798, he must have had an exciting and much travelled life!
Mary
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Hi,
Family pilot search has a George Coleman baptised 24.3.1799 Chatham Kent. Parents John and Mary Coleman. Chatham & Gillingham are within2/3 miles of each other.
John
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Here is one George Coleman
The NSW Government Gazette 27th October 1835 page 772 mentions amongst a list of absconded prisoners
a GEORGE COLEMAN, Lord Melville, 35 Northamptonshire etc
Gerry
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Thanks John, that may well be him. What is the Family pilot search which you mentioned?
Mary
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Yes Gerry I thought at first that George could have been a convict as some of his children were born in NSW in the 1830s. However, one child's baptism record shows his father George as being a bandmaster in the 4th Regiment. They were sent to guard the convicts.
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Mary,
Here is George Coleman, bandmaster leaving NSW for India.
The Sydney Herald 7th August 1837 p 9
A segment mentions
"The Head Quarters of the 4th Regiment will proceed to India, in the John, tomorrow and consists of Major England (Commanding Officer)" etc etc etc "including the band, and Mr. Coleman the band master"
This headquaters staff were leaving on the John and the Adam Lodge was taking the rest of the detachment.
The reference to the bandmaster as Mr was probably a respect of the position and rank that George Coleman held in the Regiment.
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/28653194?searchTerm=Bandmaster+George+Coleman
Gerry
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Mary,
The birth of a son on Dec 12th 1836.
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/36854327?searchTerm=Bandmaster+Coleman
Gerry
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Mary,
An 1836 letter to the editor from band master G COLEMAM
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/36858284?searchTerm=Bandmaster+Coleman
Gerry
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Mary
George Coleman was a Chelsea Pensioner and there are records held on the UK National Archives site but the way I read it they are not availvable as yet because they are being digitised at present.
Please have a look, I typed in the search box "George Coleman 4th Foot Regiment" between the dates 1800-1850
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/catalogues-and-online-records.htm
Gerry
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Hi Mary,
If you can get access to Find My Past they have the lists of Chelsea Pensioners. They are working with the National Archives to add the diitised records to their site.
Oz Peggy.
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Hi, go to http://www.familysearch.org/eng/default.asp along the tool bar at the top go to search records and pilot search is there.
John
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Wow, thank you all so much for your information. I am particularly taken with the newspaper articles, especially the letter written by George himself! This is amazing.
Thanks for all your support,
Mary