RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Warwickshire => England => Warwickshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: leelou on Tuesday 20 March 07 16:23 GMT (UK)
-
Hi
Trying to find the mother] of
Joseph Pedley 1879 - 1935 watch repairer and
William Pedley 1881-1954 BSA worker.
She married a Tin Spoon forger - Joseph Pedley.
Might be Bridget from Mayo in Ireland, but a name of Ellen appears on Williams birth certificate.
I'm confused again!!!!!
Louise.x
-
Hello Louise
If you have Williams birth cert. why isn't her name on that?
Jim
-
The only marriage for Joseph Pedley is this one:
June 1874/B'ham/6d/44
poss. wives:
Elizabeth Doley
Sarah Ann Jones
Jim
-
By 1901 Joseph is widowed.I can't find a death for Bridget but did find this one:
Ellen Elizabeth Pedley/Sept.1891/Aston/6d/153/aged 40
Jim
-
1891 census (census night 5th April) RG12 2387 folio 16
13 Court 4 House St George Street Birmingham Warwickshire
Joseph Pedley 44 Birmingham Head Widower Spoon forger
Joseph Pedley 12 Birmingham Son
William Pedley 10 Birmingham Son
plus 4 lodgers
Ellen E. Pedley was aged 39 the wife of James Pedley, living in Birmingham on the 1891 census.
Regards
Valda
-
LOL I searched for ages earlier for these in 1891 no wonder I couldnt find them as they are indexed as Hedley..DOH ???
Joe
-
Sounds like Ancestry...don't you just love it.
Jim
-
Having looked at the census enumerator's capital P in Pedley for the 1891 census I don't think many people attempting to index the surname would have felt confident deciding it was a P. The indexer has obviously hedged their bets and brought in a H for the more common surname Hedley. With prior knowledge from the 1881 census and 1901 census entries it isn't such a problematic decision to come up with the surname Pedley. The poor 1891 census indexer however had no extra knowledge to help them, so in reality their attempt was really not all that bad.
Regards
Valda
-
Thanks for everyones help, but your info seem to be conflicting. I am getting better at all this - honest!!!!
I know in 1891 Joseph Pedley c 1845 was living with his sons Joseph and William, and then in 1901 moved to New John Street West where they lived next door to Ada Hardy and family. William and Ada were married in 1903.
From family information Joseph Pedley senior was married to an Irish lady, but name unknown. I had guessed this was Bridget who was from May in Ireland from cesus info. When I heard Williams mother was Ellen I needed more help. I do not own the William certificate. My dad's cousin seems to hold a lot of family information and is a bit of a magpie. I am getting bits from him at a time and promises to send a copy of everything at Easter. I can't afford to buy certificates if he has the originals sitting in his filing cabinet!
Are you saying Joseph Pedley c1844 did not marry a Bridget or an Ellen?
regards
Louise
-
Ok
I'm getting the hang of this!
In 1881 Bridget, Joseph and their children Joseph and Charlotte live at Rea Street Aston.
William was born 29 April 1881 so would not be on the census.
BUT
According to my cousin who was the original birth certificate for William, he says Ellen is William's mother adn he was born in Rea Street! He told me this information before I mentioned Rea Street in my research.
Perhaps he is wrong about Ellen? I will be a little wiser at Easter I hope!
Louise
-
Does the birth cert state "Ellens" maiden name? it should
Joe
-
Hello Louise
Give your cousin a nudge and get him to give mother's maiden name in full,Bridget may have been known by another name as well.
The only marriage I could find for Joseph Pedley was the one I gave you,but to be sure you will need to search the full indexes on Ancestry.
Jim
-
Thanks Jim
Just phoned and he's out. I'll try later!
Louise
-
Tell him to stay in or we'll send the boys round.
-
JOSEPH PEDLEY
ELIZABETH DOLEY
Marriage: 08 JUN 1874 Saint Bartholomew, Birmingham, Warwick
possible for Elizabeth on an earlier census
1871 census RG10 3097 folio 12
6 Court 1 House Birmingham Warwickshire
Henry Doley 48 Smethwick, Warwickshire, Head Married Packer
Sarah Doley 47 Birmingham, Warwickshire, Wife Married Whip braider
Elizabeth Doley 17 Birmingham, Warwickshire, Daughter Whip braider
George Doley 13 Birmingham, Warwickshire, Son Brassfounder
Caroline Doley 12 Birmingham, Warwickshire, Daughter Warehouse girl
William Doley 2 Birmingham, Warwickshire, Son
Possible death for a Joseph Pedley - though this doesn't prove the marriage, the 1871 census and the 1879 death actually do connect.
Deaths Sep 1879
Pedley Joseph 34 Birmingham 6d 66
If a candidate for the Joseph Pedley you are interested in has not been found on the 1871 census that leaves plenty of scope for Joseph not being in Birmingham and marrying elsewhere. With a wife born in Ireland for instance he could have been in the army. Her names may be Bridget Ellen or Ellen Bridget or the census enumerator may simply have got the name wrong (nothing on the death index for that combination) or your cousin might be mistaken. You really do need 'Bridget' 'Ellen's surname from her son's birth certificate to help people try and find her in the civil registration and if possible earlier censuses. Alternativel she may be Elizabeth Doley.
Regards
Valda
-
Hello both
Valda...I couldn't get the drift with the death info. but looked at Elizabeth Pedley in 1881 and found her widowed as you did.As she is living in Staffs. I wonder if she married the Joseph Pedley who was born there.I think Louise you need the marriage cert. as well.
Jim
-
The widow Elizabeth Pedley living in Stone Staffordshire in 1881 is not the same age as Elizabeth Doley on the 1871 census, so could be the widow of any named Pedley not a Joseph. There is a 10 year age difference (she was 36 in 1881) which is why I didn't give her as a possible. The Elizabeth who married the Joseph Pedley in 1874 could easily have remarried before 1881 and after his potential death in 1879. e.g.
Marriages Mar 1881
Pedley Elizabeth Birmingham 6d 25
Can you explain Jim why getting the 1874 marriage certificate would be useful if it has the possibility of being a marriage to another Joseph Pedley in Birmingham and not the one who was alive and 'married' to Bridget in 1881. I'm not quite sure how it would help?
Regards
Valda
-
It seems to me that there are 2 Josephs in B'ham at about the same time although I can find only 1 birth in B'ham + 1 in Staffs. who may have migrated in.The marr. cert. would establish who this Joseph belonged to.
Regards Jim
-
You have Joseph's death in 1879, but William Pedley was born in 1881. ?
I spoke to my cousin last night & he assured me he would email this morning. Nothing by 12.20pm! Do you have a contact for those boys Jim!!!
Louise
-
Cousin has responded.!!!!!!!!!!
Sadly he has not scanned the certificate, but just emailed saying William Pedley born 29/04/1881. Mothers name Ellen Pedley. He says the certificate does not give her maiden name.
He said a copy will be in the post soon. !!??
Any use?
Regards Louise.
-
Do we assume that there is a father's name as well or has he told you father is Joseph.
Jim
-
On the 1881 census for Rea Street where William was born a few days after the census day we find
Joseph Pedley 37 Iron spoon forger Birmingham
Bridget Pedley 37 Mayo, Ireland
Charlotte 4 Birmingham
Joseph 2 Birmingham.
Rea Street is on his birth Certificate. The email says he is posting a copy of the certificate. I'd have been quicker and less stressed if I'd bought the certificate myself!
Regards
Louise
-
I'd have been quicker and less stressed if I'd bought the certificate myself!
;D So would we LOL ;D
Joe :)
-
Ther are 2 William Pedley births about this time.1 registered in March 1878/Aston the other in June 1881/B'ham.The first one can't be the one your cousin has because it's too early.How's this for a thought,your cousin has the wrong cert. and the right one is William 1878.
jim
-
Hi.
Sorry to barge in but wondering if you have a marriage certificate for either of the sons - William or Joseph showing that their father's name is Joseph?
As Jim says there are a couple of William Pedleys born about the same time in B'ham. The one with a mother named Ellen has a father named James.
He is the 1878 William. How sure are you of your William's age?
Without a marriage cert for one of the children I don't know we can find the right father.
I have looked through the actual BMD index images for 5 years - 1875 to 1880 and can find no marriage for a Joseph with a Bridget >:(
Cheers
India
ps Hi Jim......Sunny and 75F here today ;D
-
Hi all
William Pedley born 1881 is my dad and cousin's Grandad.
He brought up my dad until he and grandma Pedley died in 1953/4. The certificates were passed to their daughter - my cousins mom, and now cousin John has them.
The certificates, therefore, - I presume as I have not seen it!!!!!!!!!! is an original along with the death certificate from 1935 for Joseph Pedley , Watch repairer or Whitehead Road, Aston born 1879.
My dad has the marriage certificate for Joseph 1879 and his wife Roseanne Prenticec 1884, for 1907 and is phoning in 10mins with all info. - Thanks all for bearing with me till the end! I'll be in touch in 15mins!
Louise
-
Could Briget on 1881 census be Ellen on birth records. ie Bridget Ellen Pedley or Ellen Bridget Pedley?
I'm sure Bridget is right as Dads aunt who is still alive said Grandad Pedley's granny was from Ireland? This links with the Rea Street entry on Census 1881.?
Louise
-
If the birth certificate for William Pedley says Rhea Street then it would match to the 1881 census Pedley family with mother recorded as Bridget, despite the fact on the certificate itself her name is given as Ellen. This is the family in Rhea Street on the census. If William's birth was after census night 3rd April 1881 it would be after the census was taken.
On the 1881 census James and Ellen Pedley with their son William aged 5 were in Vauxhall Street.
Births Mar 1876
Pedley William James Birmingham 6d 137
Is the suggestion that the birth certificate held by Louise's cousin is really for William James and that the father's name was given as William for some reason and though the birth was registered as William James, Louise's cousin has forgotten to mention the James in his name??
The birth of William Pedley in 1878 registered in Aston
Births Mar 1878
PEDLEY William Aston 6d 371
is the William Pedley aged 3 birth place Aston, living at 10 Coleman Street Birmingham in 1881 with parents John and Ann.
The Rhea Street census of 1881 is a match for the 1891 census - details already posted and for the 1901 census.
RG13 2843 folio 136
62½ New John Street Birmingham Warwickshire
Joseph Pedley 55 Birmingham, Warwickshire, Head Widower Spoon forger
Joseph Pedley 22 Birmingham, Warwickshire, Son Brass dresser
William Pedley 19 Birmingham, Warwickshire, Son Cycle polisher
The most likely other births and deaths for this Joseph's known children are
Births Mar 1879
Pedley Joseph Birmingham 6d 135
Deaths Dec 1884
Pedley Charlotte 8 Birmingham 6d 2
and possibly
Births Sep 1876
Pedley Charlotte Aston 6d 275
These certificates would in the case of the births and possibly in the case of Charlotte's death if her mother registered it, give you the name/s of the mother. Her full name including her maiden name should appear on the birth certificates, but it looks like in the case of William's birth she chose to 'fudge it', or else the registrar has made an error.
I have yet not been able to find Joseph on the 1871 census. Since Bridget/Ellen was born in Ireland it is possible that Joseph married her there, if for instance he served for a spell as a young man in the army. Alternatively they may never have got around to marrying. The missing marriage is not really as perplexing as the missing death registration, since supposedly Bridget/Ellen died between 1881 and 1891. People don't have to get married, but they do have to have their death registered to get a burial.
Regards
Valda
-
On Joseph and Roseanne Prentice's Wedding certificate of 1907
Josephs father, Joseph Pedley was a spoon forger. - confirms census 1881. He was deceased by 1907.
Roseanna Prentice's father was Richard, and a carter. She was born c 1884.
louise
-
Well, this Bridget/Ellen thing is a right mystery! ;D
And, I don't know how we will solve it if she didn't give her maiden name on the birth cert...how odd!
If it was me, I would get the marriage cert and birth cert for William's brother, Joseph, just to confirm that we are talking about the same family.
The reason I say that is because I have at least one incorrect marriage cert in my tree. A relative was raised by his uncle and put his uncle down as his father on the marriage cert!....Grr very confusing.
If Grandma says that Bridget/Ellen was from Ireland then that is a good indicator that you are on the right track.
Now as far as 1871. I think I have found Joseph the spoon forger and he is listed as George Pedley the spoon forger! Living at Cheapside in Aston as a lodger with the Johnson family. He is 26 and unmarried. I have been unable to find this George the spoon forger on other census. It is not unusual for lodgers to be enumerated incorrectly!
RG10/3134 Folio 148 Page 19
Cheers
Indi
-
Thanks Indi
As said previous I have the marriage certificate for Joseph - Williams brother. I will order Joseph's birth cert -
Joseph Pedley 1879 Birmingham Jan - March 6d 135
William Pedley birth certificte - the one belonging to cousin John - dob 29/04/1881 - Birmingham ???? a reminder please
regards Louise.
-
Deaths Mar 1906
Pedley Joseph 59 Birmingham 6d 144
Age on death would give a birth year of circa 1847 which is within a 'yearish' of the age given on the 1901 census. 1891 and 1881 censuses are consistent. No matching birth registration on FreeBMD which is almost complete for this period.
1851 census HO107 2060 folio 374?
29 Cheapside Aston Warwickshire
William Pedley 60 Birmingham, Warwickshire, Head Married Spoon stamper
Charlotte Pedley 48 Aston, Warwickshire, Wife Married
Charles Edward 19 Birmingham, Warwickshire, Stepson Spoon maker
George Edward 14 Birmingham, Warwickshire, Stepson Spoon maker
Joseph Pedley 5 Birmingham, Warwickshire, Son
Marriages Dec 1861
Edwards Charlotte Birmingham 6d 273
Pedley William Birmingham 6d 273
The late marriage would make Joseph's birth more likely to have been registered in the surname Edwards.
1861 census RG9 2171 folio 94
No3 House 27 Court Cheapside Aston Warwickshire
William Pedley 70 Birmingham, Warwickshire, Head Married Iron spoonmaker
Charlotte Pedley 60 Birmingham, Warwickshire, Wife Married
George Edwards 29 Birmingham, Warwickshire, Son-in-law Married iron spoon maker
Elizabeth Edwards 28 Liverpool, Lancashire, Wife Married
Henry Edwards 2 Liverpool, Lancashire, Son
Elizabeth Edwards 3mths Liverpool, Lancashire, Daughter
Joseph Pedley 18 Birmingham, Warwickshire, Son Wood Turner
1871 census RG10 3146 folio 30
Back of 29 Holt Street Aston Warwickshire
Charlott Pedley 70 Birmingham, Warwickshire, Boarder Widow Shoebinder
There is a possibility that because of Joseph's illegitimate birth he could appear in records as Pedley or Edwards.
William Pedley's birth 29/04/1881 was born in Rhea Street (hence not on census night 3rd April) and was the son of Joseph and 'Ellen'. William son of John (the spoon polisher) and Ann was born in Aston in 1878.
Regards
Valda
-
Charlotte Taylor married Henry Edwards 1819.In 1841 cen.Henry is listed as 50 and Charlotte 38.There are 4 deaths registered in the first half of 1840's so Henry could be any one of those.It's looking likely Joseph was William's natural child as they didn't marry until 1861 and seems unlikely Joseph would have been given the Pedley name particularly as there were older siblings at home.
Jim
-
Just had email from cousin John.
He has just found out that Grandad Pedleys mothers surname was Curry. !!!??? So Ellen nee Curry is Williams mom, but the woman on the census is Bridget!
The address on the birth certificated is 3 Court Rea Street South. 26th April 1881. Census match.
Amazing how he has just found this - by looking at the certificate properly!
Louise
-
Hi Louise,
Well, this gets curiouser and curiouser!
In 1871 there is only one Ellen Curry living in Birmingham. She is aged 19 and from Ireland. She works as a tinner. and is lodging with a Mary Cormally (sp)
AND, when I look at the image, also living there is Bridget Curry, aged 26, from Ireland and working as a tinner.
I have looked for a marriage for either Curry to a Pedley but no luck.
I was wondering if Ellen was the mother of William and she died and then Bridget (her sister?) is the mother of Joseph?
There is a death of an Ellen Curry in Birmingham in 1879 but the age is way out - of course the age could be incorrect.
The plot thickens! :) :) :)
Cheers
Indi
PS...added.....And of course......I could be barking up the wrong tree it could be a totally different Ellen Curry!
-
Indi....In 1881 Bridget is aged 37 which is consistent with your 1871 info. but Joseph is the older child with William being born 1881 ( mother Ellen ) so the Ellen death must be someone else.
Has the census enumerator got it wrong leaving out Ellen and making Bridget wife instead of sister-in-law. ???
Louise.....I take it your not kissin' cousins.
Regards
Jim
-
Oh Jim...
Grr....Just when I thought I had something sorted!
Of course, you are correct...I had the children backwards.
Still.....I think that we are talking about the Curry sisters and their relationship to Joseph Pedley.
Interesting stuff this family tree lark!
Indi
-
Yep.. I think your right.Wouldn't you have liked to be a fly on their wall in 1881.Perhaps he was a Mormon....2 wives perish the thought. :P
Jim
-
Going for the simplist explanation for the 1881 census - heavily pregnant Ellen had her sister Bridget staying with the family because of her approaching labour. The census enumerator got confused and put Bridget down as Joseph's wife (when it looks like neither sister was in reality) and somewhere Ellen got left off the household return.
The lack of a marriage isn't an issue (at least in tracing the Pedley line) because some people just didn't get married, but as stated before they all die, so the difficulty in locating the death registration is more intriguing.
Regards
Valda
-
Valda...that's a conclusion I arrived at as well ( previous note ) as Joseph is widowed in 1891 and unmarried in 1871 there is only 1881 to go on and if the enumerator got it wrong it could well explain the birth anomaly.If Joseph's birth cert. gives Ellen as mother I think that's the only reasonable explanation.
Regards Jim
-
Hello all
Thanks for ALL your help on this one.
I will order Joseph's birth certificate and William's is in the post from cousin John!
I'll update when I have the Joseph cert - hope it has Ellen or Bridget on it!!!
Louise
-
Joseph Pedley born 1879
His marriage certificate to Roseanna Prentice 28/04 /1907 includes
Age 28 so links to dob of 1879
4 back 60 chain Walk, Aston
Watch maker -
Father Joseph Pedley deceased Spoon Forger.
Joseph 1879 lived at 6 Whitehead Road at the watch repair shop - living relative confirmed and its his death cert cousin John has.
So we know I have the correct person's certificate, so Joseph's, ( and brother William with Bridget/Ellen!) father is also Joseph a spoon forger. Just as you confirmed Friday.
Thanks a million folks
Louise
-
Hi Louise,
Oh, do keep us posted on your Joseph Pedley saga.....it is so interesting.
And of course, the next thing is to figure out if he ever married one or both of the Curry sisters?......
Family History is such fun!
;D ;D ;D ;D
India
-
Hi again!
As promised I'm updating you on the never ending Pedley saga!
I now have birth certificate for both William and Joseph Pedley. Both have Ellen Pedley nee Curry as mother.
I come to the same conclusion of that the 1881 census was wrong - sister Bridget was at the house for the birth of her sisters child and the wrong name was entered. Hope this clears it all up!
Thanks for all your help!
Lou.
-
Well done Lou,that's another wall demolished.I suppose we can forgive the enumerators mistakes as they had to rush about getting all the info. in before they could go home to bed........just.
Jim
-
I know this is a longshot but is leelou still on this Pedley chat?
Anne
-
Hi Avandel
Last Leeou posted on Rootschat was 27th Jan 2008
Try PM'-ing her!
D/F
-
Just got a message. Can I help?
leelou
-
Hi Both
Hope its good news! or an ancestry find.
Good luck and hunting
Dobby
-
Hello from Canada Leelou
I've been reading all these post with interest as my PEDLEY's were basically all Spoon makers. William PEDLEY b. 1791 married Susanna PARKER Aug 11, 1811. The only death record that I have been able to find for her was 1852. Now I know that Charlotte is listed as his wife on the 1851 census but the only marriage record found has been the marriage in 1861. Doesn't mean they were or weren't married at the time of the 1851 census.
Anyway, I would like to converse with you on your PEDLEY line starting from around 1900 & back.
I'm in touch with 2 other PEDLEY researchers connected by our 2x gt grandfather Thomas son of William & Susanna, who knows yours could be amongst ours.
Looking forward to hearing from you over the weekend
Anne
-
Thanks everyone that responded to my query & yes Dobby, it could very well be good news on the ancestral front.
May you all have luck finding your ancestors.
-
Have you seen this one:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,420919.0.html
jim
-
So I guess my William Pedley c1791 - 1861 married to Charlotte Edwards (nee Taylor) could be the same who married your relative? My Charlotte and William were together later in life as Charlotte already had children by her first husband. Guess William could also have children by a first wife and be your relatives. I have no information before this. All the information on this side of the family is found on rootschat.com from 2 years ago including a detailed look into William's son's wife Ellen Curry. What a super site! :D
Perhaps you have more information?
look forward to hearing from you.
Lou
-
Hello Jim1
Yes, many thanks, I have recently been in touch with Pedlar, we are definitely 3rd cousins. Who would have thought I would find, not one but two people researching the same family & in less than a week. You've got to love this site!
Anne
-
Hi Anne
I'm in Wolverhampton, England, not far from Birmingham.
My line goes to Joseph, son of "Our William".
Your Thomas and my Joseph must have shared the same father?
Joseph was born in 1847 and lived with his parents and children from his mother Charlotte's 1st marriage. She was 44 and William 56 at the time of his birth. The census returns for him show the Edwards children living with William and Charlotte .
I'm so grateful of the help I received from this site 2 years ago. A whole side of my tree was uncovered and now a new link- amazing!!
Lou
-
My grampy, (different line) was born in Wolverhampton, ha! small world!
Did you ever get a birth cert for Joseph? was he registered under PEDLEY or EDWARDS, curious to know was mum Charlotte & dad William? Would love to know what happened to Susanna PEDLEY as the death record shows as 1852. I don't have a copy to see who was present, that's providing that was her. Of course there's always a possibility that our William's are not the same one. Must delve into this later this evening & get back to you. I do know that Pedlar here on Rootschat is definitely related, & if you are too, then that will make 4 PEDLEY's in total I have found that are from the same lines.
Talk later,
Anne in Canada
-
Hi!
According to rootschat helpers Joseph was born in 1847 and Charlotte and William were not married until 1861. Perhaps without a birth cert Joseph might not be Charlotte's? He is down on the 1851 census as a Pedley and luckily carried on this name or my ancestors would all be Edwards!! I only have information that roots chat friends have found for me as I got into a muddle with this line of the family. I only have certs of Joseph Pedley 1879-1935. I have birth marriage and death. He ran a watch repair shop in Whitehead Road for many years until his death.
regards Lou
-
Hi Lou, sorry to take so long but have been doing some research on Joseph. I found the following on a couple of websites if you haven't found them already.
Joseph PEDLEY, birth was shown as Aug 9 1843, in Birmingham, parents William PEDLEY & Charlotte TAYLOR
And the birth is registered as;
Sept quarter 1843
Joseph PEDLEY Birmingham 16 299
Hope this is of some help to you. If you get the birth cert I would be interested in knowing how Charlotte was listed? as TAYLOR or PEDLEY. I'm still trying to find out if our William's are one & the same. I did find information that the Susanna that died in 1852 wasn't William's first wife but his grand daughter, from my lot. The last child of William & Susanna's that I have listed was in 1816, so far I have not found any others.
And so the quest continues.
Regards,
Anne
-
In my previous post I should have said "I'd be interested in whether Charlotte was listed as TAYLOR, PEDLEY or EDWARDS on Joseph's cert.
I also just found this listing;
June 27 1819 marriage between Charlotte TAYLOR & Henry EDWARDS at St. Phillips, Birmingham?
Regards,
Anne