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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Devon => Topic started by: cire on Sunday 18 March 07 16:06 GMT (UK)
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Does anyone know if there are any records of the
" Rope and Sailmakers of Devonport Dockyard"
from around the 1850s, and if so where they might be housed.
in hope
Eric
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Hi Eric,
There is a Devonport Dockyard Museum situated just inside Granby Gate (South Yard).
This Museum holds open days through the summer but I'm not certain of the frequency.
Just down from the Museum is the old ropewalk which is a fantastic building.
Also, close by, there is a working gallows for hanging French servicemen during the Napoleonic wars :o (I was told that it was mostly used by the French officers, to hang French matelots).
I'm not sure what the Museum holds in the way of records though, it could be worth contacting Plymouth and West Devon Records Office to see if they have anything, if not, the Admiralty may hold some records.
The Museum is open during "Navy Days", the next one of which is due in 2008 but I have not heard confirmation of this.
Plymouth_Ian
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Might want to see if they have any records here...
if you put your surname and the occupation in, you'll likely get
what is online, also ( information from Plymouth and West Devon Record Office)..J.J.
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Thanks Ian,
I will have to pay a visit to the museum next time I am in Plymouth. We might get down there later in the year.
I have sent an e-mail to the Plymouth and West Devon Records but haven't had a reply as yet.
John Spencer was a sailmaker but I don't know if he was an employer or employee. The 1861 census puts his address as "St Andrews Factory" Catherine St. Plymouth., but in both 1851 and 1871 his address is given as 15 Notte Street!!!
Eric
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Hi Eric,
I would think that if he lived in Notte Street it is more likely that he made sails for civilian craft than Naval vessels.
I suspect that the Dockyard would have had its own "in house" sail making operation.
This is of course discounting the fact that he may have made them for the Dockyard / Navy "off-site".
Plymouth_Ian
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Oh, dear, sorry that I never noticed my paste didn't work...
http://www.a2a.org.uk/about/catalogues/new0308.asp
but I see you have made contact already, anyway ... :) J.J.
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I am following this thread with interest .My Grt Grandfather was a Ropemaker and lived in Salem Street Plymouth also his father who was a Shipwright and there is nothing to note about either job on the net .Unfortunatly I live nowhere near Devon so a visit would be in the future.
Cheers Tsumi
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Just to say thanks for all the interest in this topic. I have had a reply from local studies at Plymouth, but they do not do personal research. So it looks as though I shall have to wait until I get to Plymouth or persuade my grandaughter to go and search for me!
Eric
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Hi In fact I was a sailmaker in the Dockyard in 1967 and we about 50 sailmakers at the time but we had no contact with the ropemakers in there as it was considered another job as it still is even in Holland ! Your sailmaker most certainly did NOT work in the dockyard as there were many small businesses around at the time and even now in and around Devonport so there is no point going to the musum because even the trade was different as we done most work by hand and not even the same stitching
regards gord
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bornarnold (gord) welcome to rootschat!
Although he may not have lived at the dockyards ( there was room) he would have most certainly worked there...from this little piece which gives a great feel for the area in the mid-century
http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/Plymouth/Plymouth1850.html#DevonportDockyard
excerpt: "Dock Yard now comprises 70 ˝ acres, and gives employment to from 1400 to 1600 men, as shipwrights, caulkers, joiners, smiths, sawyers, rope-makers, painters, riggers, sail-makers, labourers, &c., besides a large number of apprentices. In time of war, its establishment would be augmented to about 4000"
Cire ( Eric) I wonder if this group might help you? http://www.swmaritime.org.uk/article.php?articleid=275&atype=m
They have a forum as well... http://www.swmaritime.org.uk/forums/index.php
Mentions the ropemaster's house & ropeyard "buildings" "Ropery complex" but not if they were all for work...
http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/en-476469-dockyard-wall-extending-from-east-of-rop
http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/england/devon/plymouth
The ropery spinning house was destroyed in 1941... if you are missing parish information, several churches & chapels were also hit during the war, so there may not be files available... http://books.google.ca/books?id=jeOMfpYMOtYC&pg=PA329&lpg=PA329
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Here's another web page with several online old maps of Plymouth. There's also a watercolour of St. Andrews parish church and the buildings crowding round it which will give you an inkling of the area. I couldn't spot either of the streets on any of the maps but could see there are three sheltered harbours/coves ideal for shipping. One map which included "The Dockyard" earlier than 1841 showed even then that there were several buildings but unfortunately not named but probably housed a timber yard and factories making rope and sails and other ships' provisions, which would all be in demand during the era of sailing ships.
http://www.cyber-heritage.co.uk/maps/mayflower.htm
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In fact there were many sail lofts in and around Devonport and still are as all around plymouth there were ship repairers for small boats including a very large fishing fleet at that time
The dockyard in 1967 I believe employed 11,000 people at the time and at that time we made very few sails after the royal navy was modernised as we made mainly awnings and covers for guns amongst many other things mainly done by hand which took a long time to do ,for example to put a hole in the corner of an awning to put tight we had a time limit of 20 minutes as all hand made
The date you are talking about Sailmakers they were important and had plenty of work all over Plymouth as there were a lot of very small docks for different things each specialising for their boats ,The merchant navy was also important at that time not counting the emigrations to America and the local small boats I have never heard of the dockyard employing outside contractors as x navy men not wanting to sail anymore were pre destined to work in the dockyard but there was no problem to find work after an apprenticeship even for young pretendants newly emigrated to Plymouth which was a booming town
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The RN dockyard in 1967 was very long and at the time and there was a bus service and a train service internal to get about I cannot remember all the gates to go in but there were at least 6 main gates between North yard, Maurice yard and South yard in the 1840s my great grandfather was a shipwright who moved from Barnstable (north Devon ) to work
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Hi
I was very interested to read all your comments, and surprised that the subject had attracted attention again. It seems a long time since I first put the enquiry up.
The info I have on John Andrew Spencer's working life is mainly from the censuses, and the silver box. My original enquiry was with the box and why it had been presented to him by the Rope and Sailmakers of Devonport Shipyard in May 1857.
1841 aged 28 a sailmaker Chapel Street Minster Sheppy Kent not born in Kent
(presumably working in the dockyard at Chatham)
1851 aged 37 sailmaker 15 Notte St. Plymouth born Plymouth
1861 aged 47 sailmaker journeyman St Andrews Factory Catherine St. Plymouth
(his son William aged 20 was an apprentice sailmaker)
1871 aged 57 retired sailmaker RDY Devonport 15 Notte St. Plymouth (as in 1851)
1881 aged 67 former sailmaker 19 Prospect St. Plymouth
1891 aged 77 retired sailmaker 25 Baring St Plymouth
I presume that his early career was with the navy, perhaps the "journeyman" in 1861 indicates that he was by then working on his own account. Perhaps the box was presented when he left the naval dockyard and set up on his own.
Eric
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ah...you hadn't actually specified that in your query...perhaps someone may find this now who has more knowledge of the gift, if it was a standard thing to award gifts... "journeyman" actually means he is finished his apprenticeship, so he as still likely working for the dockyard. It might have been a reward for completion of apprenticeship...but one would think this would have been well documented if a standard practice. I wonder if he worked on something that might warrant extra praise? Does the box actually have the statement " presented by..." engraved into it?
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I found this meaning for Journeyman
1. One who has fully served an apprenticeship in a trade or craft and is a qualified worker in another's employ.
2. An experienced and competent but undistinguished worker.
(Middle English journeiman / journei, a day's work)
The best at a craft were the "masters" ( If yours was a master he likely would have specified on census) However he does not call himself an apprentice sailmaker on the census so may have been a journeyman by 1851 as well...
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When do you think he branched out on his own?...He states he is retired from the Royal Dock Yard. ( from RDY acronym?)
Here is the other query re: the silver box :D So no point trying to solve it on this thread
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,221553.0.html
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Yes I think your right as from what I gather journeymen ALSO went sailing on the ship to repair any faults while on trial runs testing the equipments so small faults were rectified on board for the clients even though there was most probably a permanent sailmaker on board ,
It was the custom then to give a silver (trophy) for men who had done their time in the dockyard and as sailmaking paid very well and there was lots of work if you were good at it ,an awful lot started their own business outside and as I imagine he left after a promotion ,thus even though he left earlier , I imagine he may have been a chief of some sort (thus the silver BOX) which he may have kept his needles in ,and ,classified as a (master sailmaker) AND PROBABLY HAD HIS OWN BUSINESS OUTSIDE ALREADY ESTABLISHED years before ,, as many did even while I worked there
As for the rope factory I believe the first place burnt down in Southyard and the other was bombed out in the Plymouth blitz WWII in Northyard as was the sail loft , myself I only worked in Mauriceyard
The dry docks were built by the POW of the Napoleon wars from granite I believe most of the dockyard were built with them and its quite impressive what they done (poor guys) worth seeing, very much so on (NAVY DAYS) a very good show for all but bring earplugs for small children as cannons make a good noise ,, lol The RAF,Marines, Commandos ?Wrens make it a great day where you can also go in the war boats and submarines to visit while you can see where your ancestors worked
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RDY was Royal Dock Yard is my guess
as now its or was Royal Navy Dockyard( RN Dockyard)
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Sailmakers even in my days always carried their own needles in a metal box ,in my time it was a metal tobacco box , and were known for always holding a very sharp knife ,after every cut we resharpened our knives and finished on a piece of wood or leather and shame was put on to the apprentice with a blunt knife ,,
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cere...I don't think you're all that keen anymore but for anyone else looking here are a few paintings, map,etc. ( the interior of St. Andrew's church on St Catherine St.) from the earlier Plymouth dockyard days in this brief account about William Lenthall Brake
http://www.archive.org/stream/WilliamLenthallBrakeRn/WilliamLenthalBrake#page/n1/mode/2up
(There are more extensive downloadable versions for those looking, but I saw several OCR ones that were too hard to decipher...)
Here are some directories for those interested
http://www.genealogylinks.net/uk/england/devon/dev-dir.ht
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Thanks for all the messsages. I started to type a reply before tea but before I sent it there were 4 new messages.
As you say I had put a seperate query out on John Andrew Spencer as a person in addition to the query about the Rope and Sailmakers.
The box is inscribed :-
"Presented to
John Andrew Spencer"
By the Rope and Sailmakers
of HMDockyard
Devonport May 9th 1857"
I was in Plymouth for a couple of days earlier in the year. I went to the Plymouth Museum, but they had nothing. They suggested I went to Plymouth Central Library and looked at Plymouth & Devonport newspapers around May 1857. As it was the last day I was there I didn't get a chance, so it will have to wait until next visit. The museum in the dockyard, I understand, is only open by prior arrangement except on special days. Thanks again for all your interest. I have looked at several of the sources you have provided.
Eric
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My great-great-grandfather, William Squance, had a rope and twine manufacturing facility at 6 Fore Street, Devonport. I am trying to find out more information on this business. One source I am trying is the South West Maritime History Society in Plymouth. On 27 October 2002 they had a talk by Martin Read on ropemaking in Plymouth.
Chris in Ontario, Canada
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Hi Chris
Ropemaking was, and still is, a fascinating process. There was a TV program over here sometime ago which showed the process in action. I think part of the Devonport Naval museum still has a "ropemaker's walk"
Eric