RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wiltshire => England => Wiltshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: rarebit on Friday 16 March 07 15:10 GMT (UK)
-
Hi I wonder if someone can help me ,my gtx2 grandfather James Keen(e) born 1847 moved to Wales with his parents ,I can find him on the 1881 census ,but I was led to believe that he was born in Wiltshire Broughton Gifford ,on the 1881 census it states he was born in Broughton Gifford ,I 've been told his dads name is Samuel and his mothers Jane Cleverly ,I know someone who's tried to get his birth cert from Wiltshire they have a James born to Samuel but the mother was not Jane ,can someone help me please , I've tried to find the marriage of Samuel and Jane ,but I can't find that either , Marion
-
Hi Marion :)
Jane Cleverly m. Samuel Keen sept 1884, Melksham Wilts, Vol 8 pg 558.
I think this is them on the 1861 Census:
Luckwell Lane, Bedminster, Bristol (RG9/1706, folio 62 page 32)
Samuel Keen Head Mar 31 Coal Miner born Wiltshire, Melksham
Jane Keen Wife Mar 32 born Glamorganshire, Aberdare
James Keen Son 15 Coal Miner born Wiltshire
Ann Keen Daur 10 Scholar born Wiltshire
Phillip Keen Son 8 Scholar born Wiltshire
Eliza Keen Daur 6 Scholar born Glamorganshire, Aberdare
Rachel Keen Daur 1 born Monmouthshire, Cwmbran
Will see if I can find them on further censuses.
Best wishes
Rowena
-
1851 Wales Census
Bedwelty, Monmouthshire (HO107/2448, folio 538 page 18)
Samuel Keen Head Mar 20 Miner born Wilts, Briton
Jane Keen Wife 27 born Glamorgan, Aberdare
Anne Daur 10 months born Monmouth, Bedwelty
James not with them though - will see if I can find him elsewhere!!
-
I wonder if this could be him on 1851 Census:
Bradford Union Workhouse, Westwood Parish, Wilts (HO107/1841 folio 69 page 2)
James Keen 6 Scholar born Broughton Gifford
His name was not next to a Keen family group. Maybe the family left him in the workhouse and moved to find work, then he rejoined them? Poor little chap!
-
Hi Rosie
Thanks for your help ,your a gem ,got to get the info back to Wiltshire by Monday ,1 question is the year of marriage right 1884 ,if it is they were'nt married on the 1861 census , Thanks Marion :D :D
-
Sorry - massive typo!! ::)
Should have been 1844!
-
Thanks very much Marion
-
My turn to drop a booby ,I mean't thanks very much Rosie LOL Thanks again regards Marion
-
Hadn't even noticed!
Just to confirm the marriage year is 1844 - not 1848 or 1884. I don't know what's up with my fingers today, they just won't type what I want them to!!!
There are two possible births for James: Dec 1848 (vol 8 p263) or Sept 1845 (vol 8 p260), both are Bradford Upon Avon.
Do you anymore census lookups (1871/1901) of Samuel or James - am happy to do!
-
Hi Rosie
I'm afraid that family was the wrong one ,found them married in Aberdare and her name was Jane Gowen ,in Wiltshire registry office said there are 2 Samuel s(I know his name is right it's on James's marriage cert) that had a son James one was married to an Ann this James was born 1848 ,the other was called Rachel and that James was born 1845 ,I,d me more inclined to go with the 1st one ,but I seem to come up against brick walls all the time ,maybe you can come up with something else Marion
-
Hi Marion
How frustrating! ???
Do you have the 1881 census ref so I can have a look at that and work backwards?
Will keep looking to see if I can find them.
Rowena
-
Hi Rowena
The only place I have access to at the moment is family search ,on the 1881 census he is in Wales ,the info you need is as follows
James Keene brn 1847 in Broughton Gifford Wiltshire wife is Sarah Keene born St Davids Pembroke ,they live in Glamorgan Bedw bach Bettws ,as you can see they travelled around ,there is quite a long way between the birth of their children ,they got married in Bedwellty ,which is the opposite end to where Margaret (their)child was born thats Swansea West Wales ,and their last child was born in South Wales ,the mind boggles!!!!hope you can help meeeee Marion
-
sorry forgot to add ,on one of the census's they say hes from Broughton Pembroke ,but I think it,s a mistake ,but you never know ,I did find an Ann Kean in Pembroke on the 1881 census but she was a widow ,and the name was spelt different Thanks for taking the time to help Marion
-
oops again ,the 1st James born 1848 that I mentioned in an earlier message married to Ann ,is'nt the right one ,Marion
-
There's a Samuel Keen who married Ann (not Jane) Gowen in Dec 1845 in Bradford Upon Avon - could this be James' parents?
The only other Samuel Keen marriage in Wiltshire in the time before James is born is the Jane Cleverly one.
-
Hi Rowen
We have checked Samuel with Ann and their son James ,James was in Wiltshire with his wife on the later census's ,so he's out ,I looked on www.familysearch.org for Samuel 's marriage ,I found one married to Eliza Bull 1844,when I went back and checked on free bmd ,I found Samuel ,Eliza and Jane Cleverly all married on the same day !!!!! so I'm really confused now ,I originally found the Samuel Keen and Jane Keen that you found then I found Samuel and Jane Cleverly on the marriage ,automatically I thought I had found the right one ,but I'll have to check Samuel with Eliza now ,but I know they did'nt have a son James around that time ,unless they did'nt register him ,I'm more confused than ever now .Thanks Marion
-
Have found James on 1871, 1891 and 1901 censuses (can give you info if you don't have) but can't seem to find Samuel, other than the one I have already found - aaargh!! >:(
I wonder if that might be them in 1851 but she was known as Jane (?middle name) as their daughter was Ann? Broughton might sound like Briton to a Welsh enumerator when spoken with a Wilts accent!
Feel like I am going round in circles (sound familiar??!) - any thoughts?
-
Hi Rowena :) :)
Thought I'd tell you what's been found ,we had a birth cert from Wiltshire for a James born 1845 , the mother was Rachel Keen and the father was Samuel West ,stated on the birth cert she and James were taken in by Isabella Keen , so we thought it was more than coincidence about the mothers name ,looked into it further ,Samuel that is on the 1861 census in Bristol had a sister called Rachel 1827 ,it looks as if James was illigitimate ,can't find anything on the census about a Rachel West in Wiltshire ,the little boy in the workhouse looks as if it is the James we are looking for ,and Samuel went back to England to fetch him and bring him up as his own ,I also found the rest of Samuels siblings ,or some of them anyway I think ,they are not on any census,s that I can find ,but the ones born after 1837 are on the birth records ,these are the children of Phillip Keen and Isabella Bull married Broughton Gifford 1/6/1817
Mary 1/10/1820
James 15/6/1823
Rachel 4/2/1827 I think she is the mother of James
Samuel 18/1/1829
William 25/5/1834
Ann 29/5/1836
Septimus 8/4/1838 verified on the BMD records
Emma 15/3/1838 verified on the BMD records
Eliza 23/12/1843 verified on the BMD records
Samuels children on the 1861 England census are Ann,Phillip,Eliza ,Rachel and James ,the same names as his siblings ,what do you think ,are they the same family ??? ???
Only thing I don't understand is why I can't find anything on the census's about Phillip and Isabella ,they must have been alive on the 1841 as their last child was born in 1843 ,any ideas ;D
Marion
-
Blimey Marion, you've been a very busy girl!! ;) Samuel may have named his children after his siblings.
I have found the family on the 1841 census for you:
Church Street, Broughton Gifford (HO107/1166, f 7, p 7)
Phillip Keen 45 Lab Born in county
Isabella 40 Born in county
James 15 "
Rachel 15 "
Samuel 13 "
John 11 "
Frederick 9 "
William 7 "
Ann 5 "
Septimus 4 "
Emma 2 "
So that now gives you several extra children too!
The quality of the original census return is really poor and hard to read. On Ancestry they have transcribed the surname as Kerst! I discovered with my family (Shambrook) that there was such a variety of ridiculous ways the surname has been transcibed that I developed the art of choosing a more unsual name in the family and searching by christian name only! Mind you, it didn't work for Septimus as he is down as Stephens on Ancestry!?
Will have a look for Rachel, but wondered if she did actually marry Samuel West?
-
Scrub that last question - think I might have answered it myself!! They married Sept 1845, Bradford Upon Avon, vol 8, p 421. What date Samuel born in 1845?
-
The date on the cert is 9/8/1845 Marion
-
Have found the death of a Rachel West, Mar 1846, Bradford Upon Avon, vol 8 p185. That might explain why she's missing from the censuses.
I can't find Samuel West on the 1851 England or Wales census.
-
Rowena :)
What is the best way to find out who Phillips parents are ,I've looked on Familysearch the only Phillip I can find is Phillip Morgan Keen born 1896 in Broughton Gifford ,and Isabella I cant find her on there at all ,can you suggest any other way we can find them ,maybe we can get something on DVD from record offices ??? Marion
-
Hi girls!
I have found the date of Samuel & Rachel's marriage
From IGI
Samuel West married Rachel Keen
29 SEP 1845 Broughton Gifford, Wiltshire, England
Which is just over a month after James birth.
Yvonne
-
Depends how quickly you need it. You could post a look up request on this board, but the parish record look-ups seem harder to get a reply on. Or you can probably buy a CD from the Wilts family history society (not sure how much this would cost though).
Alternatively, my mum and I have been saying for a while that we must get to the Wilts records office as we have ancestors from Downton, nr Salisbury. We're only 'next door' in Dorset so it's not too far for us to go in a day. I would be more than happy to look this up for you while I'm there, but we haven't arranged a date yet.
Have been hunting down Samuel West and this is what I have found:
1841 Census (HO017/1166/10, f 22, p 14)
B. Common, Broughton Gifford
Robert West 45 Wool Weaver born in county
Elizabeth 35 Born in county
Samuel 15 "
William 14 "
Ruth 10 "
James 7 "
Ephraim 4 "
Elizabeth 1 "
1851 Census (Ho107/2452, f350, p32)
47 Marshes Road, St Woollos, Wales
Samuel West 27 Lodger Labourer at factory born Wilts, Broughton
Elizabeth Wife of do 22 born Wilts, Bradford
William Son 11mo born Glamorgan, Pearne
Lodging with Huntley family
1861 Census (RG9/2655, f 42, p 11)
233 Athol Street, Liverpool
Samuel West Head 39 Butcher born Wilts, Broughton
Elizabeth Wife 33 bron Wilts, Bradford
George Son 8 Scholar born Newport, Monmouthshire
Albert Son 5 Scholar "
Samuel Son 3 born "
Thomas 1 born Liverpool
John West Border Mar 37 born Wilts, Broughton
Found a marriage of Samuel West Jun 1849, Newport, Monmouthshire vol 26 p 169. One of the other names listed is Elizabeth Smith.
So looks like poor James was brought up by his uncle and his father moved away and started a new family!
-
I did think that was what happened ,poor little soul !!!,he must be the one in the workhouse on the 1851 census ,I'll try and see if I can order a CD on line ,and it would be brilliant if you could do that for us when you go there ,be very grateful , looking at the census for Samuel West ,he travelled a bit as well did'nt he ,from Wiltshire to Wales then Liverpool ,i'll try for the CD now :) :)Marion
-
Samuel might not have been the only one to have named his children after his parents. On one census there is a Thomas Keen who has children named George, Isabella, James, Phillip, Samuel and Eliza!! Talk about keeping it in the family!
I have found Phillip and Isabella on more census returns:
1851 Census (Ho107/1841, f 4, p1)
Church Street, Broughton Gifford
Phillip Keen Head 52 Farm Labourer born Wilts, Broughton
Tibella Wife 53 Farm Labourer born Wilts, Broughton
Septtums Son 13 Farm Labourer born "
Emma Daur 11 Do Schoolar born "
Eliza Daur 7 Do Schooolar born "
(Think the enumerator had a few literacy issues!)
1861 Census (RG9/1297, f 2, p 1)
Church Green, Broughton Gifford
Phillip Keen Head 66 Pauper born Wilts, Broughton
Isabella Wife 63 born Wilts, Broughton
1871 Census (RG10/1923, f 27, p 3)
Brougthon Common, Broughton Gifford
Isabella Keen Head Wid 74 Pauper Wilts, Boughton
1881 Census (RG11/2049, f 20, p 15)
Broughton Common, Broughton Gifford
Isabella Keen Head Wid 83 Widow of Agri Lab, no occuaption born Wilts, Broughton Gifford
Mary Mortimer Daur Wid 61 Nurse Born Wilts, Broughton Gifford
Phillip died in Jun 1868 (vol 5a, p76), Isabella died Jun 1884 (vol 5a, p 85), both in Bradford reg. district.
-
Marion - any success with the CD? I'd love to hear what you find.
Rowena ;D
-
:)Hi Rowena I have sent for it ,and Yvonne has joined the Wiltshire family history society,so we should get somewhere now , you were a great help yesterday so thank you very much ,its never as straight forward as it seems is it ,now its down to the hard part ,I'll let you know how we get on :D :D Marion
-
Wondering if Marion (rarebit) is still around? I am researching the Keen family in Wiltshire. Trying to connect Phillip Keen's parents, Thomas Keen and Mary Merret back to Daniel Keen. Daniel had two wives and I descend from his a son from his first marriage .. Phillip descends from a son of Daniel and his second wife, Mary Hammond. I'm hoping that I can find descendents of the second family who have taken a DNA test.
I have transcribed all Keen and many Brown and Bryant individuals from all of the Broughton Gifford parish registers as well as 1841 and 1851 census. If anyone is interested you can email me at mpitkin (at ) live.com Mary