RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: eveder on Monday 12 March 07 21:08 GMT (UK)
-
I have info. on 1841 census for Jockeys Field St Andrews HOLBORN. ?-------? SMITH 50 Laundress
Frances SMITH 15 "
George SMITH 25 Coachdriver?
Please could you by looking at the 1851 Census, perhaps determine the birth place of the 50 year old Laundress. By 1851 Frances turns up at 7 Sandwich Street St Pancras daughter of John SMITH. I have more questions on this matter yet......but this willdo for now. Grateful for any help Eveder.
-
well- hope this helps! there are at least 3 Ann Smiths (in 1841 she is Ann)
1851 HO107; Piece: 1514; Folio: 375; Page: 65
sorry- can't decipher address other than F--- or H--- Lane Court St Andrews Holborn
Ann Smith head married 57 yrs laundress b Reading Berks
Rachal Huchinson lodger 30 yrs botanist b Ireland
James Clerk lodger 38 yrs tailor b Hasleydown Southwark
will check other two to see if they are laundresses - otherwise
good luck
heywood
-
that Ann Smith from Reading not expected so must be one of other two. It's a help, though thanks. Eveder.
-
what were you expecting?
1851 HO107; Piece: 1527; Folio: 12; Page: 16
Ann Smith 62 yrs lodging house keeper b Buckinghamshire
1851 HO107; Piece: 1527; Folio: 10; Page: 12
Ann Smith 57 yrs married to James Smith - visitors
these are the St Andrew Holborn ones - there are over 100 altogether around that age in the larger area.
-
Hello, Heywood
thanks for the interest you are taking. Bear with me as I try explain this conundrum. I was,perhaps, expecting a birthplace in Herts. [Hemel Hempstead Aldbury, or Great Gaddesden] - of course since she was 50 in '41 she may have gone to the great Laundry in wherever it is.
That said this is the reason for the search!!!!!
I have traced my tree to :- the census of 1841 7 Sandwich Street St Pancras. Job SMITH [aka John] 45 and wife Elizabeth 42 there were children Elizabeth [Eagle] Smith 13 Mary V. Smith 11 John 9 and William 3. If you are able to look up these census records in 1851 you'll see that still living in Sandwich street
John SMITH head marr. 56 Insp P.O. born H.Hempstead Herts.
Elizabeth [EAGLE] SMITH wife 51 born Great Leighs Essex then note this, 1st child is now Frances [Palmer] SMITH Daur U 24 born St Andrews Holborn but [IGI] bapt. Old Church St Pancras. as is Mary V SMITh Daur U 21 and John SMITH son U 19.
William and James D. both born and Bapt Old Church St Pancras.
It apears that the Elizabeth Daur. 13 of 1841 married a Robert Baines by 1851 but living in Sandwich St. Then Frances Palmer moved back into 7 Sandwich st as the eldest daughter.
If by now you've given up and put on the TV I quite understand but this is What I Want to Know................ Why Bapt. the eldest daughter Frances Palmer and then call the 2nd daughter as named after her mother Elizabeth [Eagle] ?
Were Frances and Elizabeth really sisters?
There is yet more but twill do for now.
thanks for any suggestions................eveder
-
Mmm - as if I would ever turn the tele on and miss this!! I multi-task (or try to) all the time - husband and daughter fed up of explaining what is happening on TV when I get particularly engrossed in something as gripping as this one!
Not sure then where Ann of 1841 fits in.
So I immediately decide to go to 1851 and begin - oh no!!! can't read pg 64 - it is so bad - 63 and 65 fine!!
Here's 1841 again --HO107/670/8
Ann Smith 50 yrs laundress not born in county
Frances 15 yrs born in county
George 25 yrs coachman born in county
where is Mary V in 1841? There is a Mary Smith- servant amongst other Marys.
Family Search has Frances Palmer Smith baptised 3 yrs after her birth-parents Job and Elizabeth. In fact just seen that Elizabeth, Frances and Mary were baptised together! Getting nowhere fast here.
Perhaps Frances is Elizabeth's mother's name- first girl often called after mum's mum - is Eagle the maiden name?
I am really sorry- I have rambled and come up with nothing!!
best wishes- if there is anything else - let me know
Kath
PS have just found the marriage of Elizabeth Eagle and Job Smith 1826 Old Church St Pancras -
-
Hi eveder,
I'm not sure why you would think that they are not sisters? Is it because they are so close in age? Or because Frances is not at home in 1841 when she should be 14?
There are lots of reasons why this could be - she could be out working as a servant. There are Frances Smiths of the right age living with other families in Kensington and St. James Clerkenwell, for example.
I see no reason why she would be the Frances Smith living with Ann Smith the laundress in 1841. Even if she was "adopted", she was baptised with the rest of the family back in 1830, so why then would you expect her to be living with her "real" family in 1841?
And the second daughter being named after the mother is not a clue, I don't think. The first daughter was often named after a grandmother, so that could be where the Palmer comes from.
Does Frances get married? Who does she name as her father on her marriage certificate?
Hope that is useful! If you would like anything else looked up, just give us a shout! :D
MJP
-
Hi Heywood&hello MJP
Let me ramble on a bit backtracking now and then:- John[Job] born 1794 H/Hemp.Herts. married 1826 Elizabeth Eagle born Gt Leighs Essex 1801. Her mother was "Mary" Snow.
John[Job] father was (a) John Smith Married to [both of this parish] Elizabeth Howard at Gt Gaddesden in 1791.
Now keep calm and put down any mind dumbing beverages etc.
(b) John Smith born 1766 Gt Gadd. bapt. H/Hemp 1774 married a Frances Palmer born 20th june 1758 at Aldbury Herts They marr. at Aldbury 5th March 1785. Herts Parish Records HALS are not easily found online for research [I'm 200 odd mile away]
John [Job] moved to london and started family.
The IGI says Job's Father was John and mother Elizabeth so why call eldest daughter Frances Palmer.
You ask for the fathers name on Frances' marriage cert. not in early 1800s except IGI. The shift from Herts. to London means that 1851 is first date that makes sense.
Ann Smith [laundry] birth place might have provoded a clue.......
you see I'm trying to trace my lineage and cannot be sure which route to take from Job back.
It's just ocurred to me could the (b) John Smith who married frances Palmer in 1785 remarried Elizabeth Howard in 1791 but wait the marr. cert says he was a batchelor not widower.
I'll have to go or my brain will explode............... again..eveder
-
could there have been two John Smiths? Frances Palmer sounds more plausible so perhaps he was a widower or a different person.
-
hi Heywood,
that certaily has ocurred to me but IGI and 1851 census insists Frances is the daughter of John & Elizabeth eveder.
-
I thought she was (according to 1851) daughter of John and Elizabeth Eagle, Frances Palmer would be her grandmother- that is John's mother. Are you sure that John Smith who married Elizabeth Howard is 'our' John Smith's father?
-
............... I get your drift. No I'm not sure but the IGI says so.
How else can I be sure. Keep the suggestions coming.
something will "click" soon. Thanks eveder
-
Ah, I think I see the issue. Let me see if I have this straight.
1) According to the census and IGI records, Job/John Smith and Elizabeth Eagle had a daughter named Frances Palmer Smith.
2) There is a marriage between a John Smith and a Frances Palmer that would seem to be a good match for Job/John's parents and Frances Palmer Smith's grandparents.
BUT
3) Baptism records show that John/Job's parents are John and Elizabeth.
4) There is a marriage between a John Smith and an Elizabeth Howard which would match with this information, rather than the John Smith/Frances Palmer marriage.
So, the question is, are John/Job's parents John and Elizabeth or John and Frances. If they are John and Elizabeth, why would he name his first daughter after a seemingly-unrelated Frances Palmer, rather than after his own mother?
Right?? Whew!
The theory of John Smith marrying twice, first to Frances Palmer, then to Elizabeth Howard could make sense. But, you still end up with the same problem - if John/Job's mother was the second wife Elizabeth, why name his child after the first wife, who would be of no biological relation?
So, you are investigating the theory that Frances Palmer Smith was not in fact the daughter of John/Job and Elizabeth, but was taken in by them as their daughter (the fact that she was not baptised right after her birth would allow for this). She could actually be the granddaughter of John Smith and Frances Palmer, and is perhaps a niece or some kind of cousin to John/Job Smith.
In order to go further I think you need to find out whether the John Smiths who married Frances an Elizabeth are actually two different people. One way to do this would be to find evidence of some Smith children with parents John and Frances being baptised around the same time as John and Elizabeth's children.
Also, when I asked for Frances' father, I meant Frances Palmer Smith's father. Does FPS ever marry (it would be after 1851 since she is at home with parents then), and if so, who does she name as her father? If it is John/Job Smith then you have part of an answer. But if it is another male Smith, then we would have a name that we could explore further.
That is all the advice I can offer for now. :-\ Let us know how you progress on this!
MJP
-
Yes MJP- that makes a lot of sense- I also wondered if she was a much younger sister to John Smith - I do think there would be a relationship between Ann and George Smith (with Frances if its her) in 1841 and John, Elizabeth and children. Perhaps she was married to a brother of John.
I haven't liked referring to it before but sadly because of the surname it is so difficult and you could have lots of John Smiths in the same parish.
It would be good to go after Frances' marriage certificate.
PS I can't find a marriage of John Smith and Elizabeth Howard on IGi- have looked a couple of times but still not found it - nor Frances Palmer so now I am very confused and despondent.
-
I also wondered if she was a much younger sister to John Smith
Ooo - good point - hadn't thought of that.
Still not sure about the interest in Ann Smith in 1841. Is it just because she is living with a Frances Smith of the right age (don't know for sure that it is her daughter because it doesn't say so on 1841) and happens to live near John and Elizabeth?
MJP
-
Hello MJP & Heywood,
surely your brains must be really aching, now. Here's a little more in answer to some of your thoughts.
John [Job] was born 24th Oct 1794 bapt. 30th Nov. 1794
His sister Elizabeth was born 5th Dec. 1792 bapt 6th Jan 1793
A bro. Edward born 16th Mar.1797 bapt 30th July 1797 all at H/ Hemp. father JOhn Smith mother Mrs Elizabeth Smith. And i have John Smith marr. Elizabeth Howard 1st Dec 1791, Does any of this help. Tomorrow perhaps Thank you again you are being very kind and a great help ...................eveder
-
Hi MJP,
yes the interest with Ann is because of Frances - who may/not be Frances Palmer Smith.
Family Search has fallen out with me - searching for John Smiths is obviously a bit painful.
I have just tried a UK census search for John Smith b 1795 +/- 2 yrs, Hemel Hempstead. There is 1 in 1851 and 1 in 1861. Ours is the 1851 and the 1861 is an unmarried argricultural labourer b 1794, Hemel Hempstead who is a lodger in Great Gaddesden.
This does show that there must always be some doubt. Perhaps the only way is to search Parish records physically and hope that the kindly vicar wrote down some clues - e.g address to point in the right direction. Frances Palmer must surely be a close relative - mother really to have her name passed down.
Good night
Kath
-
I agree Kath - time for a physical search of the parish records.
eveder - if these records are on the IGI you can order the microfilm through your local library or LDS Family History Centre. If you have gotten the information from somewhere else, then you might want to see if the local Genealogical Society has published the records. I would be particularly interested in the baptism of Frances Palmer Smith - if she was being taken in by relatives there may be a notation on the record (these kinds of extra bits of information were not transcribed into the IGI).
MJP
-
Hello again
"our" john smith was born 24th October 1794. you've found a John born 1794 H/Hempstead living in Gt Gaddesden in 1861. Is that coincidence or is what I thought was so.......not so.
Can I insert what I thought I had already posted but i can't find it so here goes with another idea.
John smith of Gt Gaddesden married Frances Palmer at Aldbury on 5th march 1785. There are children listed thus:-
Elizabeth Smith bapt 19 Feb. 1886 at Gt Gadd.
Rachel Smith " 18 Mar. 1787 " "
Jane Smith " 9 Mar 1788
Is it unreasonable to think that John [Job] was born to this couple six years after Jane in 1794? Could H/Hemp on 1851 census relate to gt Gadd? Does this make any sense?....eveder
-
Hello Heywood and MJP,
Have I come to the right conclusion?
If I want to establish my SMITH ancestors I have to find the parents of John [Job] SMITH in Herts. And/or I need to find the parents of Frances Palmer SMITH from the St Andrews Holborn.
FPS was born on 14th January 1827.
Is it possible to obtain that info. from St a Andrews Holborn parish records?
-
Hi eveder,
Interesting that the children of John and Frances seem to stop before the marriage of John and Elizabeth - this adds further credence to the theory that the two Johns are the same person.
I don't think the St. Andrews Holborn records will help you as it is usually baptisms that are recorded, not births (you just got lucky on the Old Church Saint Pancras baptism record that they also took the time to also note her date of birth). And that record does not say she was born in St. Andrew - that is only from the census. I wouldn't take that as gospel truth. London birthplaces are notoriously wrong on the census.
I would order the Old Church Saint Pancras records (or request a look-up here on Rootschat) to check the original that the IGI record came from, in case there is more information noted. When I went back to the IGI, I also noticed that her marriage record is there!
Frances Palmer Smith and Samuel Goss, 10 Dec 1854 Old Church Saint Pancras.
So, if someone has access to the records, they might be able to look that up for you at the same time they are looking up Frances' baptism. Or you should be able to find them in the BMD index and order their marriage certificate.
I can't find Frances and Samuel in the 1861 to see what she says as her birthplace.
The Saint Andrew Holborn records are on the IGI, so if you want to have a look you can. But I don't see any likely candidates - I also checked for Frances Palmer with a different last name, but there are none.
If Frances' baptism and marriage do not help you, then I think your next step will be to check the original versions of the two John Smith marriages, to see if there any clues that can help you determine if they are the same person...
It may be case of John deciding to name her after his father's first wife, for some bizarre reason! ::)
MJP
-
Hi MJP........... your last post is both helpful and sensible I will start to put it into operation.
However did you notice the comment of heywood, re-1851 census for John Smith giving reference to birth in 1794 "our" John.
Another John Smith in 1861 census is an unmarried AG Lab born H/Hemp. but lodging Gt Gadd. so it is possble that there were
2 Johns. have I got the right John with the wrong parents?
-
That is entirely possible eveder! I think the only way you are going to know for sure is if you look at the original registers yourself and just go through that whole period looking for John Smiths (both christenings and marriages) and take note of each one. Hopefully then you will be able to sort them out.
Sometimes records get missed on the IGI, so it is possible that there was another John Smith baptism that is not showing up. Or, one of them may be mistaken in his birthplace, and was actaully born somewhere near Gt G or HH.
Every little piece of information you can get will add to the puzzle, and hopefully it will sort itself out eventually!
MJP
-
Hello you two!
Just to say that Frances and Samuel are on 1881 census at RG11; Piece: 734; Folio: 83; Page: 30 - her birthplace is St Andrews Holborn.
They have several children and a grandchild. I can't find them in 1871 or 1861 - none of them which is odd.
Found the grandchild in 1891 and she has a mother, Elizabeth born abt 1860 - who is probably the daughter of Frances and Samuel Goss.
(Sorry that this does not help at all).
-
found them in 1861 - RG9; Piece: 107; Folio: 40; Page: 76
She still gives St Andrew Holborn so it seems pretty definite. I was hoping that she would have relatives with her who could help - no such luck. Oldest daughter is ELizabeth - 3 yrs and son Augustus aged 1. She is listed as Fanny.
If you don't have details and need them - please post.
Kath
-
Hello there, both,
to start the ball rolling I've posted a request on the Hertfordshire rootschat asking for parents of the 2 john Smiths listed on the census for 1851/61. and if poss. their birth/bapt. dates. It's worth a try although I'm not sure it is in the public domain...................... eveder
-
I hope something turns up.