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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: Old Bristolian on Monday 12 March 07 19:08 GMT (UK)
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I hope someone may be able to help with the attached photos. Family tradition reports that they are both of Gunner John Williams 79034 RFA who served 1915-1916 and was killed at the Somme on July 1st 1916. Can anyone identify the regiments from the badges/uniform & do the spurs indicate that horses were ridden (presumably in an ammunition supply train)? Personally I think that they are of two different people, probably brothers. The better authenticated photo clearly shows two stripes, but I think John Williams never rose above the rank of Gunner
Steve
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Hi Steve,
Going by the cap badges both were serving in the Royal Artillery. The one on the right being a Bombadier.
old rowley
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Hi Steve
The two soldiers look like they could be related as there are similarities, ie, height and eyes in particular. If they are photos of the same person, we might need more information of where they came from. However, going on the information given, here is your Gunner:
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Thanks Old Rowley & Atom
Especially for the Military record - I now have a place of birth which had eluded me before. Am I right in thinking that the soldier on the right cannot be a Gunner because of the stripes, or is terminology in the RFA not that simple?
Steve
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:) Hi Steve
A Gunner is the lowest rank in the Artillery, his equivalent is a Private soldier in the Infantry.
A Bombadier is two ranks up from a Gunner, the equivalent to a Corporal in the Infantry, thus his two stripes.
Perhaps you will have to dig a little deeper. The Bombadier might be a relative, such as a cousin, or perhaps he was just a mate of John's. Also, without a name, we can't tell if he survived, or not.
Anne
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You probably have this already but just in case ........
In Memory of
Gunner JOHN WILLIAMS
79034, 56th Div. Ammunition Col., Royal Field Artillery
attd. "Y" 56th Trench Mortar Bty.
who died age 22
on 01 July 1916
Son of Ellen Williams, of 11, Tai Newydd, Brynsiencyn, Llanfairpwllgwyngll, Anglesley, and the late John Williams.
Remembered with honour
Annie
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Hi Annie I just wondered why it said born Tremierchion. But mother in Anglesey.
just curious. I guess Mother moved.
regards
tisgrannie
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Hi Annie. Is the transposed number a typo?
tis
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Well Tis ! ..... now I don't know !! :-\ :-\ :-\
Here's the medal card ! ......... seems to me - the same person ...... maybe one of the guys can work it out !!
Medal card of Williams, John
Royal Field Artillery
79034
Bombardier
Royal Field Artillery
79034
Gunner
Date
1914-1920
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01cc/
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Thanks for that Annie. I even tried to find him and family on 1901 census Tremeirchion or Angelsey had no shows.
Maybe I'll try some other way.
Thanks love
tisgrannie
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I'm intrigued now - May i ask where the dedication is? I certainly havn't seen it before. It must date from 1919 or later as John Williams the father died in early 1919.
John senior was a game keeper & moved his family around regularly. The eldest children were born in Caernarvon & Llanystumdwy respectively & then three boys in Denbighshire, followed by several more elsewhere. The 1901 census found the family at Llanengan on the LLeyn & the 1891 at Llandwrog. Ellen Williams was born in Mold.
The Medal card shows both Gunner & Bombadier - does this mean he was promoted before his death (& thus both photos could be him?)
Steve
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Hi All
Just checked-out John's Regimental number and it transpires that it is SDGW that have made the typo and transposed his number.
Yes, if the medal card has both Gunner, and Bombadier, it means John was promoted. It seems the CWGC site never updated its records.
Are you meaning this below Steve? It is his commemoration in the Commonwealth War Graves site:
Name: WILLIAMS, JOHN
Initials: J
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Gunner
Regiment/Service: Royal Field Artillery
Unit Text: 56th Div. Ammunition Col.
Secondary Unit Text: attd. "Y" 56th Trench Mortar Bty.
Age: 22
Date of Death: 01/07/1916
Service No: 79034
Additional information: Son of Ellen Williams, of 11, Tai Newydd, Brynsiencyn, Llanfairpwllgwyngll, Anglesley, and the late John Williams.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: IV. M. 8.
Cemetery: HEBUTERNE MILITARY CEMETERY
Anne
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Thanks Anne
Its nice to have all the additional detail - John was my wife's Grandfather & we visited the grave at Hebuterne many years ago, but only recently have I researched the family. By the way, John's daughter, Ellen, my mother-in-law is still hail & hearty at the age of 90 - she was born two months before his death.
Steve
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does this mean he was promoted before his death (& thus both photos could be him?)
Hi Steve,
If I was shown the photo's, and knew no other information, I would definatley say that they are of the same man, either that or they're twins :P
Mick :)
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Hi Steve
It is so good to have your mystery solved satisfactorily and to find that John was promoted. Yourself, your wife and mother-in-law must be feeling elated at the news. It is good to know Ellen is still hale and hearty.
You can most certainly see the likeness in the two photos, but I could not be initially positive when a Bombadier was not showing up on the commemoration sites. Thank goodness for his medal card turning up trumps, and with his correct regimental number.
Anne :)
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Well done everybody A job well done!!
kind regards
tisgrannie
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There is still one problem remaining - I have a letter written three weeks before his death & he still refers to himself as Gunner John williams, & all his medals & commemorative plaque refer to gunner as well. The right-hand photo was taken in Caernarvon, I guess in early 1916. Surely if he was proud enough to have his photo taken with his new stripes, he & his family would have called him Bombadier?
Steve
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Could it be that he was a bombadier but was demoted back to gunner seeing that the information that Annie put up has him as Bombadier followed by Gunner? Just a thought.
old rowley
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That's certainly a possibility - I know he was disciplined in the first half of 1916 for overstaying his leave
Steve
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Steve - is there any chance you could send me your email address privately? I am related to John Williams (the family called him Jack by the way) and have some more information for you and would be very interested in speaking with you about him. He was my great, great Uncle.
Exciting stuff for me as we can hopefully fill in some gaps at our end too!!
Best regards,
Sean Jones (formerly of the Llyn Peninsula, now Yorkshire!)
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The man on the right is a Corporal and not a Bombardier. Before 1920 when the RA dispensed with Corporals, a Bombardier only had one stripe.
Ken
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Hi Sean
I've sent a PM
Steve
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Hi Steve:
This Trefor Williams, nephew of Jack Williams and cousin of your mother in law Ellen. Could you send me an e-mail privately and we can fill in some more gaps!
Trefor
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Hi John
You are only showing as having one post and you need 3 to be able to use the PM system - a couple of replies on this thread should do the trick
Milly