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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Hertfordshire => Topic started by: benzon on Monday 12 March 07 15:37 GMT (UK)
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Joseph Carter is my gt gt grandfather on one of my maternal lines but he seems to be a bit elusive !! Census returns for 71 and 81 give his occupation as carpenter born St Albans c1833. Might have a sighting for him on the 61 but lodger so cant prove anything. Can't find a baptism or a marriage or anything obvious on the 41 and 51 census returns. Believe his ?wife was probably Emily Flack b Stanstead but he disappears from the scene after 1881 whereupon Emily seems to have remarried a William Prior. But cant find an appropriate death either ?? Have possible remarriage for Emily in West Ham RD in 1884 although she was living in the Stanstead Abbotts/Rye Park, Hoddesdon areas.
Anyone any clues. Only getting back to 1871 is a bit tame these days !!!
Cheers
Denise
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He couldn't have changed his name for some reason could he??
Theres this marriage -
Joseph C Clay Dec 1866 Islington Vol 1b Page 439
On same page - Emily Flack or Sarah A Newell
See 1851 HO107/1713 Folio 249 Page 36 St Albans, Herts
IGI Familysearch site - Joseph Clay chr 05th May 1833 St Peters St Albans
Parents - Thomas Clay and Sarah
I've been looking for a remarriage for his mum to see if that could be the reason for the name change, but not found anything yet, may just be a red herring :-\
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Thanks for your reply.
Looks very, very interesting. My mum would have a fit though if it were proved that her maiden name wasn't really Carter especially as there is a rather large question mark on her maternal side as well !!
Everything on this seems to fit. However, did you come to fathom this out? I will dig out the 61 census entry again tomorrow and see where I found the Joseph Carter lodger. I expect if Thomas Clay died shortly after his birth and his mother did remarry (hopefully a Carter) then he may well have considered him his father. But why marry in the name of Clay and then adopt Carter. My mind is working overtime.
Thanks for your input.
Cheers
Denise
Don't they make life difficult sometimes.
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Hi Denise,
I found this Joseph by chance, searching for Jos* , Keyword St Albans, b.c1833.
Looking for a Joseph and Emily or Sarah Clay on the 1871 census, I found only one Joseph and Emily Clay and they had children over the age of ten so were most likely married much earlier than 1866. And I found 3 Joseph and Sarah Clays, but they too had much older children.
Its strange to not be able to find someone on two censuses (unless they're gypsies, seamen, etc) someone on rootschat can usually uncover them!! :) so thats what made me think of a possible name change.....
Of course this theory could be completely wrong! They do like to make thing difficult for us! :)
Good Luck
Catherine :)
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Not much time today to delve this problem. But may have found ?another red herring.
On the 61 census I found a William Clay Carter bc 1826. Guess birthplace ?? - St Albans !!!!!!!!
Cheers
Denise
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Hi
I have had a quick look on my 1841 index.
I have traced my family back to St. Albans in 1841 - no Joseph Carters - but maybe just coincidentally have a Henry Carter baptised 5th May 1833 St Peters, St. Albans (as were all the family). Maybe somehow related with the Carter name???
I looked at the 1861 census the lodger Joseph Carter is in Edmonton Middlesex. 1841 gives a Joseph Carter (no other family it seems) in Watford, Herts. Too far? He is 8 years old. Cannot find anything for 1851 like you.
Cheers
Andrew
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Hi Andrew
Thanks for your input. I did do a bit of further searching for Carters in St Albans last night on the IGI using the batch no. which seemed to suggest, if I recall correctly, that there were two Carter families floating around St Albans at the right period but here again there wasn't enough info to make a positive conclusion.
I think there are two births in the Watford area that could be possibles but on both the 71 and 81 it says St Albans. If there were a discrepancy then I would widen my search but at this stage I dont want to go up the wrong alley just to add another generation. Likewise, Joseph and Emily are firmly in this area of East Herts on the 71 and 81, and there is a possible candidate born Broxbourne.
So, who knows, did the enumerator or whoever gave the information, have it wrong on three census returns as 61 gives birthplace as St Albans as well.
I tell you, my mum's lot are proving to be a complete and utter mystery. A supposed father bargeman who trots up the River Lea to Ware, has his fling and disappears(? our interpretation !!) and now a Carter reputed to have been born in St Albans but no trace.
Just out of interest, does your Carter line remain in St Albans or where else did they settle?
Still, it keeps us on our toes and this forum is fantastic for picking other people's brains when you hit that brick wall.
Thanks again, I'll bear in mind what you say.
Cheers
Denise
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Hi Denise
I have found from my experience my Carter's are slippery as well ;D My great grandfather is shown as Arthur Henry, Henry Charles or just plain Henry on historical documents. Must have loved all his names! Cannot find his birth as yet.
My ancestors (Carter line) navigated towards London - Islington and Shoreditch. I suppose where the work was. Makes it so easy to find a Carter in London ::) My family have navigated eastwards - Essex now via Wiltshire ;D
Cheers
Andrew
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To all those who posted on my message and especially CatOne
Bingo
I did a bit of further research on an elimination basis and then decided that the only way I was going to solve this, one way or another, was to send for the marriage certificate.
Postman has delivered this morning. Joseph C Clay was indeed Joseph Carter Clay. His occupation is stated as joiner and he is described on later census returns as a carpenter. Cert states his father as Thomas deceased so that fits with the St Albans baptism and Emily Flack's father as John Henry Flack deceased which I believe to be correct.
I now have no hesitation in stating that this is my Joseph Carter but mum not convinced. Always knew she wouldn't be impressed.
Does everyone agree that the info on the cert tallies with everything else and this is too much of a coincidence for it to now be a red herring?
Now all I need to find out is why he dropped the Clay, whether the William Clay Carter on the 61 is a brother and how the Carter name fits into it all.
A big THANK YOU CatOne, I dont think I would ever have got there without your help.
Cheers
Denise
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Glad to be of help, Denise, nice to help break down a small brickwall even if I can't break down my own! ;D
I think there are too many coincidences for it not be the correct family. I thought originally maybe the Clay/Carter came from his mum, ie; remarriage or having Joseph pre marriage, but there is a marriage in 1818 that may fit, Thomas Clay to Sarah, maiden name Pearce (no sign of a Carter name) so maybe the Carter name is further back, would be interesting to see the family (plus Thomas and Sarah's parents hopefully) on the 1841 census to see if there are any clues.
Good Luck,
Regards
Catherine :)
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Perhaps if I say "pretty please" to Andrew he might look it up for me.
Andrew, would be much obliged if you pick up this thread whether you would do me the huge favour of looking this up for me. If it is too much of a cheek, don't worry.
Cheers to all
Denise
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Hi Denise
Quick check on my indexes shows no Joseph Clay of ages 5 - 10 living in Hertfordshire in 1841. Searched all parishes.
Assuming they lived there.
Will delve further.
Cheers
Andrew
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Hi Andrew
Thanks for looking that up.
Hm, intriguing though.
Did a parent search for Thomas and Sarah Clay on the IGI which revealed the following all baptised St Albans -
Martha Clay 16 Nov 1828
Elizabeth Clay 3 Jan 1819 (this would fit with the 1818 marriage)
Sarah Clay 28 July 1822
Joseph Clay 05 May 1833
William Clay 05 May 1826
(Room for some others between 1828 and 1833 ??)
Then on Free BMD the possible death of a Thomas Clay at St Albans in Mar Q 1846
In 1851 found at Adelaide St, St Albans
Sarah Clay widow 55 schoolmistress b St Albans
Marth Clay dau 22
Joseph Clay son 18
Ellen Doggit visitor 24
By 1861 Sarah is at Marlboro Buildings, St Albans a 63 year old almswoman/governess living on her own. Perhaps Thomas and Sarah were living elsewhere between 1833 and 1846?
Will do some more digging.
Thanks for all your input.
Cheers
Denise
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Hi Denise
I have looked through "Jos* Clay" in 1841 census and cannot find any that match the IGI records. As I said before none in Hertfordshire. Also looked at Eliza* Clay, Martha Clay, etc. None came up that fitted. Maybe missing bits from census??
As an aside (maybe helps with later searches) there are families of Flacks and Clays living next door to each other in Mansfield, Nottingham - shown as weavers/knitting. Don't want you to veer off in a wrong direction though!
Do you think the Carter bit is a family christian name like it can be used in the US?
Could these be your flacks in the 1841 census?
Living in Lawshall Suffolk :
John Flack b.1791
Betsey Flack b.1797
Fanny Flack b.1825
Mary Flack b.1828
Eliza Flack b.1829
Emily Flack b.1833
Sarah Flack b.1835
Ann Flack b.1837
All born in County - living in WidenGreen? (something green).
Cheers
Andrew
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Looks like Elizabeth married John Beeson -
Marriage - Elizabeth Clay March 1842 St Albans Vol 6 Page 547
Grooms - John Beeson, John Richardson or Joseph Geary
1851 HO107/1713 Folio 249 Page 37
Adelaide Street, St Albans
John Beeson 34 Tinman & Brazier St Albans
Elizabeth 32 Bonnet Sewer St Albans
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William Lichfield 32? unmar Lodger Tinman & Brazier Flamstead?
and in 1861 they're at Holywell Hill with "lodger" William Litchfield and his wife Martha + children. Martha is the right age to be Martha Clay and looks like this is the marriage -
William Litchfield June 1851 Luton Vol 3b Page 712
Brides - Martha Clay or Rebecca Mills
Regards
Catherine :)
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Could this be daughter Sarah in 1841?
HO107/4/16 Folio 9 Page 13
Great Brassingham, Luton, Beds
Sarah Clay 20 FS Y
in house with -
Sarah Crawley 65 Farmer .. Y
Thomas 45 Farmer Y
William 35 Farmer Y
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Hi You Two
Seems I have you both looking for my Clay Carter/Carter Clays. I have spent the last couple of hours trying every which way to see what I could come up with and have drawn a blank. Even went into The Times on Beds Library Service and entered Clay Carter/Carter Clay. Only thing I could come up with there was a firm of accountants in London late 1800s. As Joseph was a carpenter and William Clay Carter a builder dont think there can be a connection.
You might be right about the christian name Andrew but I have even entered Carter as a christian name and Clay as a surname on the IGI and vise versa and drawn a blank.
Wondered if it was something to do with a profession but why is Joseph, Joseph Carter Clay and if this William is connected, why is he William Clay Carter.
Thanks for the marriages Catherine, I will add them to my file. You are one step ahead of me.
While typing this just seen your further message. A bit intriguing and I am sure this one is a red herring but mum's materal grandmother was a Crawley whose hubby (that's another BIG ?) was a Thomas but I have them in Wadesmill in 41 and he was a hairdresser. Could be a connection somewhere but I will leave that one aside for now.
Just out of interest my Sarah Crawley was a Sarah Hutchin who connects up to hubby's lines.
If I can help either of you with your brickwalls let me know. As has been proved here, two (or three) heads are sometimes better than one.
Cheers for now
Denise
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Sorry, should have said.
William Clay Carter (if he is the William Clay baptised 1826) married Julia Tennant Gregory at St Pancras Dec Q 1853 9b 99.
Six children by 1871 but what actually also intrigues me is that none of the names of any of this William or Joseph's children seem to be previous family christian names. Still, I expect that was too much to hope for.
Cheers
D
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I like a mystery :)
I was wondering if Ellen Doggitt (visitor in 1851 census) was connected in anyway, but having traced her on all censuses apart from 1841, she is with her parents, then her son (also Building trade) and no further connection with your Clay/Carters apparent. Cant find a marriage on IGI for her parents though.
It would seem Andrew is right and there are some pieces of 1841 census missing (with both Doggitt family and your family!!) I wonder if anyone has the complete census on disc, or whether they are lost for ever :-\
Good Luck
Catherine :)
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Well, I am now going to call Thomas Clay a "dirty old man" !!!!!
I found a baptism for Sarah Pearce in St Albans in 1804. A bit adrift from the census returns but might be a late baptism.
Then couldn't find a Thomas Clay with a birth around the same time. Widened the search. A Thomas Clay was baptised at St Albans on 25 Jan 1772, father Nathaniel. So this could give us a 46 year old man marrying a 14 year old !!!!!!!!!!
Found a marriage for Nathaniel to an Elizabeth Thornton in 1752 at St Albans.
What can I say !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Cheers
Denise
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I found that one too, but didn't like to comment on the character of someone elses ancestor! ;D
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If you've found the birth of Sarah Pearce, you've probably also found her possible siblings? Other chidlren of Joseph and Sarah?
Is so, on the 1851 census her brothers? Thomas and William are living together, with William's daughter Emma and Thomas's wife Sarah occupation "Brazilian Hat Makers" (+ children). Didn't have a clue what they were, but if you google it, this comes up -
http://www.hertfordshire-genealogy.co.uk/data/topics/t012-strawhats.htm
The addresses are of interest, Fishpool Street and Holywell Hill, as its where your family were living on various census isn't it?.......
Regards
Catherine :)
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Always knew that Luton Football Club were called the Hatters after the straw hat industry there (although I am not a footie fan !!) but didn't know it extended to St Albans.
Wonder if the straw hat manufacturer William Pearce has any connections with Sarah. Will have a look tomorrow.
Well, we might not have found anything else out about the Carter Clay connection but reckon we have learnt something.
Cheers for now
Denise
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Now you've got me interested. I'm going to have to go back and read all this topic carefully as I'm related to the Pearce's (all in the Straw Hat trade) in St Albans. I also have access to parish records in St Albans......
The straw hat industry was huge in St Albans.
There are a number of parishes in St Albans (including St Peters) missing on 1841 Census on Ancestry. Rick has posted them all on the Herts Lookup board, but they're not gone forever!
I will return ..... ;D
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Just as a note which may be of interest to Andrew, I found William Clay Carter, a builders foreman, et al in Islington on the 1881 census and then a death for him in Islington in the March Q 1888 age 61. Don't know what time frame you are looking at in Islington Andrew but thought I would post just in case.
The death for Thomas Clay in 1846 is not he. This was St Albans RD but was at Harpenden and not the right family. There is another though in 1850.
To JLo, watching this space, thanks for your message.
Cheers
Denise
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Hi Denise
Thanks for the information. In 1871 they were in Finsbury, Islington - not a million miles away. Probably still around there for 1881 (nothing in census though).
Your ones seem the more well to do Carter's - what with your servants ;D Mine are of the more common or garden variety ;D
In 1841/51 all the young girls were involved in the Straw plait industry - but so I suppose were a lot of people in St. Albans.
Thanks
Andrew